Why is it that we cannot just disagree. Why do we have to convert

[applegrove]

each other and meet exactly on the facts. I believe there are rumors about Diebold. And that the GOP squigglies are stirring the pot.

I believe there were all sorts of frauds committed during the election. There always have been. Usually under some local boss. But this time the time honored traditions were brought to bear in an organized and unprovable way. Long lines, stopping recounts, are part of how Bush won close races. So was redistricting, rule-making at the polls 'if they look like a hippie - then jump on them for some issue like ID'.

I believe it was organized and should be illegal. I believe that the biggest assholes in the Republican game were flown into places like Ohio or Florida to run the show on election day. And by vetting the lists in the areas that counted and where the races were close.

I also believe that the Vatican helped out by pushing the abortion issue. Rove had elders appeal to African America Church leaders to pressure their voters.

I believe Rove & his team have build a big tent on wedge issues and tribalization.

I believe part of that tribalization in the case of democrats is to scare all us different democrats until we shatter. We all react differently to emotional duress and liars. The moderates don't see that diebold would be fooled with - the lefties would put nothing past the WH. And that is used - the lack of transparency - to separate us from each other.

They will not solve the transparency issue because it pays the GOP a big dividend by isolating the lefties from the moderates.

I don't want to fall into that trap. I don't want you to either. I don't believe the diebold machines were fooled with. I believe rumor has been spread to keep the issue alive and democrats at each others throats. Same with many other issues.

I just wonder what will happen during the 2006 elections if a whole bunch of moderates show up and mix with lefties who really put nothing past Bush & his team (have every reason to feel that way - but feeling that way is not the facts we have). There will be strife. Already people are angry with Carter. What leader will be able to speak to us all. If we are so divided amongst ourselves. We will follow different leaders. Much worse than Nader in 2000.

Me, I am from Canada, but am involved because I care and have life experience that is pertinent. And because my country will be the first to fall if the neocons cannot be beaten back to the caves they belong in. Chintz will go fine in a cave I think.

I don't want to see the big Tent pulled apart by tribalization. And if you believe something to be true - that is not going to bother anyone. That is your experience. But if a whole gang of you believe and me and my gang don't. And you insist I have to see it your way.

Then we have been tribalized.

Tribalization is how the British ruled the world. In every nation they went to - they found disparate tribal leaders and played that up. So people couldn't get together and say "hey - colonials out". Worked like a charm. Is why the neocons go off on the 19th Century they love it so. We are at a point where we can barely talk to each other. It was not until the fight for democracy that people started talking to each other across cultural and tribal lines - because it takes empathy (for others not like you exactly) to be democratic or to live in a democracy. Or to have a big tent.

I got called a ***** because I believe a hijacked plane was flown into the Pentagon. And I won't listen to somebody's theory that it could not have happened. I think some of them are pot stirrers. Some of them are true DUers. And on diebold - you could be right. Nefarious types will play with your personal shit and played with our hearts and minds - so why not machines? But I don't think the machines were directly tampered with. I just don't. It was new technology and that was a change - so a chance for the Repukes to create another wedge - this time within the democratic fold. I think Diebold is a another myth. I could be wrong. But that is what I believe.

So I do not need to be convinced. Nor do I want to. And you have your feelings on my actions and I have my feelings on yours. And we should stop there. And stop trying to convince each other. I post in threads because I don't want moderates to be shut up. And if someone wants to ask me why I feel the way I do - I will tell them. And I'll go back and forth a bit. But you do not need to convince me. We are okay together you and I - who see things a little bit differently. Probably because we have somewhat different belief systems - though I think we are very much alike. And also because we have different life experience. So we are okay like this. We don't have to exactly fit. We are a big tent the Democrats. You may paint zigzags on your tummy and I may pierce my nose with bone. And we can be different and see beyond the fact that we emotionally and intellectually cannot quite connect 'exactly'. But we are tribes today it seems. We follow different myths. A myth can be based on fact or not. A myth is just something that makes for a belief system.

I come from Canada and even here the British way was to govern one tribe from the leaders against another. The Catholic Church was given so much free reign in Quebec. English Canada had other leaders. And after the British really left - why it wasn't twenty years later that the English were saying "what was that - why do we treat the French like we do? we really were favored" and the Quebecors and the French were saying "what was that - why didn't we do anything - we are as good as anyone - we can lead ourselves". And we had to deal with it then and learn to live together. And we still are.

Me - I rather not learn how to not be able to hang with you. I'd rather do what I have always done and say - not exactly me but so much of what they say is so true. Bush is a Fink. A liar. They will stop at nothing. I'm not sure what that means. I don't happen to believe in one part of the song. I don't have it all figured out just yet. I don't have enough info.

We will have to heal from these wedgies sometime. It is a long and hard process. Ask India & Pakistan. Or the Hutus and the Tutsies. I'd rather nip this one in the bud. Cause the thing is - with the neocons out of power - I could live happily beside you no matter what you think or Diebold machines. I'd even vote hard for transparency and fight for it. Because it matters to you so much - and really I think most of the issue is very real. In fact I believe in pretty much everything else i have heard annecdotally.

Let's think beyond the 2008 election. Or beyond the 2006 election. We stayed together and empathized with each other even though we experience things differently. And we were not tribalized and forced to follow my narrow god (moderation) while you followed yours (diebold). Because we will all have what we want if we don't let them do this to us. They will be gone. Canada will be safe. USA will have some form of health care to keep costs someone reasonable. Those Diebold machines would be torn apart. There would be a transparency in election commission reporting to Congress in 2007. So none of this - what you and I feel - would matter. The issues would be solved. And you didn't have to change my thinking to match yours on every detail and with each huge emotion you must be feeling (I'm Canadian - so not so heavily invested emotionally).

So again. I'm saying not that you are wrong. But that I don't believe in the Diebold machines being played with. I don't mind discussing it - but I don't want your sources..I have my own routine for learning. And that should be fine and it would have been before these GOP monsters got power and mixed all our emotions up.

[Carolab]

1. Wrong. n/t

[applegrove]

2. I like your smilie. It always makes me laugh.

[Carolab]

3. Well, that's good.

I enjoy giving people a little chuckle.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

4. It is not about mixing emotions

when it comes to Diebold.

That is my opinion, and that of a lot of experts in network security and other areas of computer science.

[smartvoter]

5. This is about facts, not emotions.

The bottom line is we have a statistical winning of the lottery with upsets and deviations from checks/balances/polls directly tied to computerized voting and/or tabulating machines.

The trouble you're going to have finding people to engage with you on this is you are saying you don't want to hear their sources. Well, there are some HIGHLY credible sources who believe there's a problem here. A big problem.

By saying you don't care about official or knowledgeable sources, you are communicating that there is no point in pursuing it with you. You believe what you do and that's that.