How do you counter a President's pardon?

[Domitan]

While it's looking more and more likely each day that Rove, Libby and others may be indicted, the Bush government still has that trump card for the last round: The Pardon.

If that does happen, is there any way that can be countered so that the guilty ones still pay for their crimes? If that can't be done legally, what are the other realistic ways that they can be prevented from getting away with this?

[RPM]

1. impeachment

please

[Domitan]

3. I doubt that your government is in a position to do that now

especially with a GOP dominated Senate and Congress.

[RPM]

8. you asked - it's how you counter...

unfortunately, i am painfully aware that it is nto a practical option

[Cassandra]

2. A civil suit?

and pinning the pardon of treason firmly onto the butts of the Republican party.

[Dogmudgeon]

4. You don't.

It's part of the Constitution. It's an absolute prerogative of the President.

--p!

[Toots]

10. I think a President can overturn a Pardon as well as grant one.

Also new charges can be brought and civil action as well.

[Dogmudgeon]

15. I don't think so -- but I could be wrong

I hate to be the bearer of bad -- hopeless -- news, but this is a pretty tough constitutional nut to crack, and I think the process is one-way. That is, the President can't reinstate charges.

It's a very strongly written provision of the constitution.

The President ... shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

US Constitution, Article 2, Section 2, Clause 1

There does not appear to be any way around it. In addition, it looks as if this applies to the conviction and punishment phases of impeachment as well; Bill Clinton could not be pardoned, either.

The Republicans were up in arms over this, and spoke about changing this provision, when Clinton left office and pardoned some people -- as if no Republican President had ever pardoned a convicted criminal! That idea was quickly forgotten when the case of Marc Rich hit the papers, and they discovered that Clinton had pardoned him because he was a valuable CIA/Mossad "asset".

I think it's an ironclad part of our legal system -- Bush can pardon anyone he so chooses for any reason or no reason at all. If you find out otherwise, please let us know about it.

--p!

[mandomom]

5. How do you ask a man to be the first man to admit guilt?

Buzzflash has posted an interesting commentary on this.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/05/07/con05249.html

It's worth the read. In my view, if Dems take action now we can reframe the whole whodunnit classified leak story (that someone leaked is a foregone conclusion) into the DON'T DO IT pardon story. Would Bush pardon Clinton for lying about a personal affair? Would Bush pardon his staff for placing America's secrets at the bottom rung of his political ladder? Wold Bush pardon himself? We may need a Plame/Wilson vs. Bush et al to bring Bush's complicity into clear view and to make him face his Roverloo.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CrispyQ]

7. ...

:rofl:

[kliljedahl]

21. Missed post #6, what was it?

Keith’s Barbeque Central

[Pepperbelly]

9. absolutely nothing can be done about a pardon.

It is the sole power of the executive and it is not subject to review of confirmation by anyone.

[aspberger]

11. Stress the political fall out

Ford's veto of Nixon cost him his own presidency. Hold the feet to the fire.

[Domitan]

12. That's the best bet so far

but it's a shame that there's no legal way to prevent such unjust pardons.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

13. Ridicule.

[skip fox]

14. I agree with everyone. Nothing to be done but relish the results.

If he refuses to pardon (and I can't imagine that), then public reaction will dramatically suffer. (Briefing questions like this, "Are you pardoning him for the treasonous activity or for the perjury or the conspiracy to leak and perjure, Mr. President?", will go down very hard.) The public might well begin to see what we've knowing for ages, that this gang of bellicose thugs, wingnuts, and "smash-mouth politics" boys have gotten us in a terrible geo-political and domestic state (both of which they lie about) and have drained the public treasury.

If Rove is pardoned (probably against the advice of the Republican congressional leadership), then all is well politically for the Democrats IF they are willing to assume a fairly unified vision for the country's future.

Of course W. will probably pardon him, but what advice would Rove give the president if it didn't involve him?

[johnaries]

16. None. but it can be the "kiss of death"

Remember when Ford pardoned Nixon?
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761558435_2/Gerald_Ford.html

...the pardon ended any chance Ford might have had to establish his own presidency. His press secretary, Jerald terHorst, resigned rather than support the pardon. Confirmation of Ford's nominee for vice president... Ford himself was called upon to testify in October 1975 to a House Judiciary Committee subcommittee that was investigating the pardon. The first president since Abraham Lincoln (1861-1865) to testify in person...

...Even this extraordinary appearance did not lessen press criticism of Ford, which had begun as soon as the pardon was announced. A large part of this criticism was extensive coverage of Ford's apparent clumsiness—he tripped and fell down the stairs of the presidential airplane in Austria, and was filmed several times falling down while skiing. Even two assassination attempts in 1975, both in California, failed to generate any substantial popular support for the president.

...Reaction to the pardon also prevented Ford from putting together a governing coalition in Congress. The 1974 congressional elections, held only two months after the pardon, gave the Democrats control over both houses of Congress.

Please, Bush, pardon Rove!

[LiberalFighter]

17. Depends on the wording of the pardon

If pardon is only for crimes that the individual is about to be indicted or is indicted...

then get him on other crimes that have not been filed or brought to light.

[Domitan]

18. But can Bush pardon the same person again

Say Rove is pardoned for perjury, can he be pardoned later on for another crime?

[mandomom]

19. Yes, as long as Bush is still president.

[Domitan]

20. If Bush pulls out all these pardons

do you think that may set some new motions to limit the ability to pardon?

[rasputin1952]

22. Remember the Clinton pardons? All hell broke loose about those ...

and it was the RW that did all of the screaming. No one there was accused of the things that Rove/Libby have done, but the 'crime' is not the point; bush went out of his way to ensure people he would deal with the leaker post haste...he didn't and THAT has a lot of RW'ers pissed off.

bush is proving to his base that he is a lying scumbag, and even rabid RW'ers are not standing for that. For all the talk about not worrying about polls...bush is shitting his pants right now, because his 'legacy' will already put him at the bottom of the list, and if he pardons Rove/Libby, there will be severe backlash in '06, and if the House goes D, he knows that impeachment is a real possibility.

Let's not forget though...this is one remarkably stupid man, he is capable of anything.

[Sparkman]

23. Deal with that "problem" when you cross the bridge!!!