As soon as Dem Activists start to get Traction...DLC and many here Pile On

[KoKo]

It's amazing to me that the minute we activists and fighters for "Truth Out" start to gain some ground like with Howard Dean playing to PACKED HOUSES where FOLKS APPLAUD HIS REMAKING OF DEMOCRATIC TALKING POINTS, and Karl Rove is involved in the worst scandal since WaterGate...and here on DU and around the Liberal Bloggosphere...posts about Jane Fonda and how she's bad for Dem Image Appear. And THEN, more posts from Hillary Clinton apear...about "Big Tent Needs to stop Firing Squad" and here and there other posts all determined to force many on DEMOCRATIC "UNDERGROUND" to capitulate to the Democratic Leadership Conference's (DLC's) Latest Dictums which are frankly, sound like what the RIGHT WING send out to it's Repugs!

Do I as a Democrat whose been totally involved for years need some "DLC/Lobbyist Controlled Operative" trying to tell ME what to Think? Some 20 or 30 Something Karl Rove WANNABEE righting points for me that come from Joe Biden's Hair Transplants? Or maybe Evan Bayh's following amongst the J-Lo Set where MSNBC said Bayh was the HOTTEST OF DEMS for 2008? EVAN BAYH is a HOTTIE amongst the TEEEN CROWD who NEVER VOTES?

GIVE ME A BREAK HERE!

Karl Rove IMPLODES and DLC TRASHES IT's LEFT! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH....

Another "PERFECT STORM" of pitting factions against each other so that in the end the REPUGS ...ALWAYS WIN????

[annabanana]

1. thenk yew!. . . . . . .n/t

[bloom]

2. don't forget the GTA distraction...

I'm afraid they are going to go for a Bayh/Hillary ticket.



AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.... is right. :argh:

[IChing]

6. It's like talking on how to win the game of the super bowl without playing

any games yet in the season,
You don't know if your quarterback or star receiver will be injured who might step up for the team as we've seen it with many teams over the years
it's the whole team, if defense doesn't play correctly no amount of offensive line will guarantee a win,

you have to win one game at a time then you go to the playoffs
then you go to the super-bowl

So I think it will be Denver vs Dallas
if Elway plays again.

[acmavm]

3. You know I really don't understand dems anymore. They whine and

bitch about how their party stands for nothing anymore, how they can't win an elections to save their souls, and then the go and officially turn into Repuke Lite.

Finally we had a guy who wasn't afraid to tell the whiners and the liars and the fundies and the freaks what the democrats stand for, what we've always stood for, and they go and start pushing Bayh and Hillary and Biden down our throats. These people are not democrats folks. They are opportunists.

[Cha]

4. I was thinking like this,

too. Thanks, KoKo.

But, they're gonna do what they're gonna do..Power is not let go of, easily!

If Jane Fonda has the guts to get out there and speak against the Iraqi war then I say, "do it"..I don't believe in censorship even for rick fucking santorum.

[wyldwolf]

5. KoKo01 - let's compare...

the number of posts where people "pile on" the DLC and/or moderate Democrats vs. the type of posts you describe.

And might I add that one of the topics you are complaining about (Hillary Clinton about "Big Tent Needs to stop Firing Squad") is a newsworthy story on a Democratic message board.

Did I mention this was Democratic Underground? And, hence, you will encounter posts you don't like.

[KoKo]

20. PLEASE...just ready Digby's reply to DLC's Will Marshall about that Dems

are facing in countering Bush. I thought Digby's rebuttals to Marshall's "Roverian" comments was excellent. It's a LONG READ THOUGH.

Today's DU'ers don't seem to be able to "suffer through" more than a two sentence "sound byte." I long for the "old days."

BUT...understand that ALL OF US have much LESS time under Bushies who are beating us with a whip like one beats a Donkey to "do that work...tote that barge..lift that bail...get a little drunk and you LAND IN JAAAAAIL!" (Gershwin/"Porgy and Bess" the first AMERICAN OPERA)..

So, that we all have so little time to read....DOES NOT MEAN ..we should be "SLACKERS," though. :shrug: Download and Print and read when you are in the shower...or in the carpool or just sitting in an airline terminal with nothing to do but wait for the "violation inspectors" to go through your "intimates." :-(

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=4194507&mesg_id=4194507

[LittleClarkie]

7. God forbid someone should have a differing opinion.

I feel for those who are call operatives, apologists and sychophants for expressing an unpopular point of view.

And it's just this sort of paranoia that makes us look like the loony left, and doesn't help the cause a whit.

[ret5hd]

10. because god knows...

that "vast right-wing conspiracy" just didn't exist, did it?

[Mass]

12. Sure,it could be GOPers

but I doubt that is what the OP was talking about, though I cannot be sure.

[LittleClarkie]

15. why would you quote the words of someone

that is being accused of being DLC Repub-lite, and thus by the thinking of some, part of that right wing conspiracy.

Hillary is the one who said that, remember?

[ret5hd]

17. yeah, i remember very well...

i also know that history ended up vindicating those words. Remember?

[LittleClarkie]

22. Indeed. But why bring them up here

Hillary is a part of that conspiracy, dontcha know. DLC bastards! :sarcasm:

[TahitiNut]

11. 'A Modest Proposal' was "an unpopular point of view" too.

:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

16. I don't recognize the reference

Care to illuminate?

[TahitiNut]

19. Google Jonathan Swift "A Modest Proposal"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Jonathan+Swift+%22A+Modest+Proposal%22&btnG=Google+Search

[KoKo]

21. Your reply gave me so many Jonathan Swift treats...I was forced to copy

this one. I'm not sure if it's the one you meant. I wish you had narrowed the "search" a bit...but since you didn't here's what I picked:

--------------------

For Preventing The Children of Poor People in Ireland
From Being Aburden to Their Parents or Country, and
For Making Them Beneficial to The Public


By Jonathan Swift (1729)


About this text.

It is a melancholy object to those who walk through this great town or travel in the country, when they see the streets, the roads, and cabin doors, crowded with beggars of the female sex, followed by three, four, or six children, all in rags and importuning every passenger for an alms. These mothers, instead of being able to work for their honest livelihood, are forced to employ all their time in strolling to beg sustenance for their helpless infants: who as they grow up either turn thieves for want of work, or leave their dear native country to fight for the Pretender in Spain, or sell themselves to the Barbadoes.

I think it is agreed by all parties that this prodigious number of children in the arms, or on the backs, or at the heels of their mothers, and frequently of their fathers, is in the present deplorable state of the kingdom a very great additional grievance; and, therefore, whoever could find out a fair, cheap, and easy method of making these children sound, useful members of the commonwealth, would deserve so well of the public as to have his statue set up for a preserver of the nation.

But my intention is very far from being confined to provide only for the children of professed beggars; it is of a much greater extent, and shall take in the whole number of infants at a certain age who are born of parents in effect as little able to support them as those who demand our charity in the streets.

”I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled ...”

[LittleClarkie]

23. So is the DLC snacking on children now?

I like John Kerry. And get called an operative for it. So I relate to having to deal with paranoia. Some folks are just too obsessed with the DLC.

[TahitiNut]

27. I doubt very seriously that you're being "called" anything.

Doing so, would be a violation of DU Rules. Furthermore, I seriously doubt many if any are in substantial disagreement with you merely because you support John Kerry. (I voted for Kerry and, even though an independent and not a "Democrat," I note no disagreement with me that I regard worth portraying as a 'group' or 'ideology.') If, in fact, that's all you get from any "discussion" regarding differences you may have with others, then I strongly suspect you're not examining the content of those discussions sufficiently.

It seems to me that characterizing one's self as a "victim" on DU of having supported Kerry is itself quite inflammatory and likely to attract impatient and dismissive responses ... as it deserves.

[LittleClarkie]

34. Out of curiousity

Are you calling me a liar?

[ret5hd]

8. i'm convinced it is organized, ...

it would not take a huge amount of money to study our group dynamics on forums such as DU, analyze these group dynamics, "road test" a few flame-fest topics on a board (or thread) or two, then use the "winners" to incite full-fledged "wars" on these boards.

I don't think it would take more than two or three competent (though warped) psychologists and a handfull (maybe a dozen or so) trained and motivated provacateurs (maybe with a little psychological training themselves), and a hundred or so dial-up accounts.

I am betting substantially less than $1M/yr. I can't think of a much bigger bang for the buck. And, much as with cointelpro in the '60's, even if we suspect (or even KNOW) there is such activity, that suspicion or knowledge is a tool that can be itself used to fragment us with suspicion.

[blm]

9. I don't like the vitriol from either side. It's dumb and counterproductive

You do what's possible given the FACT that there is a range of views.

[KoKo]

13. But, blm, I've always seen you as honest in your fights. At what point

does the "range of views" go into an "imbalance" given what we all have lived through...those of us like, you and I who've been through a WAR here seem to be "overkill?" :shrug:

[blm]

18. But, when do we become Cold Warriors? US and USSR painting each other as

monsters day in and day out until both are just horrific caricatures with no resemblance to the actual people.

Life's too short and the REAL enemy too great - we must look past the characterizations and stick to the FACTS only.

[KoKo]

26. What "enemy" do you see as the worst, though?

:shrug: PM me...if you don't want to say here. I just don't see the "enemy" that YOU Do... :shrug: And, it probably needs a PM discussion.

[blm]

35. The enemy is BushInc.

No pm necessary.

It was no mystery to anyone that the reason I was against Dean in the primaries was because he governed for 11 years a centrist and THEN the media hype made him out to be a radical liberal which his campaign used deceptively to some extent, even when Dean said himself he was a centrist - and especially when there was highly qualified liberal like Kerry to vote for who had an amazing record exposing government corruption, yet was being maligned regularly by the left. Didn't make much sense to me.

I understood Dean's centrism even though I didn't like some aspects of it at all, but there were some good things he was able to do BECAUSE of his centrism that a more liberal governor might not have accomplished.

Point being that there are healthy aspects to the range of views even when some of them are further right than mine. Clinton was as far right as I'd want to go and there aren't many Dems to Clinton's right. And certainly not enough to FEAR THEM.

[OzarkDem]

39. But we have to focus on what works

It makes no sense to support a faction of the Dem party that is emulating Republican policies when those policies are becoming more and more unpopular with voters.

Why would we want to imitate Republicans when Bush's numbers are so low? When their popularity in Congress is so low? When the public has turned against the War in Iraq and Bush's failures in fighting terrorists? Why would we want to mimic that?

Republicans can hold onto those failed policies and plans because they have the money and control of their members and of the news media to remain in power, even when unpopular.

Dems don't have the funds, the internal control, the media message control, etc. to promote an unpopular conservative agenda, particularly when the GOP has the ability to use it against us.

Why not stand for good ideas, proven policies that work and are popular with the public? Those are ideas worth fighting for and fight we must.

[Son of California]

14. We should do what Bush did

pretend to be absolutely harmless moderates until we get into office, then left the Liberal revolution begin.

Most average people in the voting booth don't care about or even understand most of the issues that make us tick. We should keep that in mind. We should keep in mind that all this crazy talk of moderation from our leaders is postering for the sake of getting into office so that they can go to work on all those same issues that make us tick.
Isn't a little posery worth it, if it means we can save Roe v Wade? protect civil rights, etc etc.

Isn't the concept of leadership the idea that you put the smartest person(s) up front and then try your best to follow what they say, even if just for the sake of organization? Hasn't our greatest weakness as liberals been our lack of cooperation?: everyone is so certain that they know the way! But while everyone is busy trying to pull in different directions more out of arrogance than anything else, the Repubs are organizing, with the grassrooters putting their ego aside long enough to follow a few orders and keep the well-oiled machine running.
How are you going to fight a war with nothing but generals?

[IndianaGreen]

24. DLC wants Bush defeated, but... (and it is a big "but")

they don't want the more liberal rank-and-file to be the ones to defeat Bush. DLC represents the corporatist wing of the party, and they sure hate those of us that see NAFTA and CAFTA as another gimmick to lose American jobs to slave labor in the Third World.

[Eloriel]

25. Don't forget the immigrant bashing

And the Howard Dean bashing because he isn't anti-immigrant.

And so forth and so on.

There've been some VERY strange posts here at DU lately. Very strange indeed. Some folks trying to sound all Democrat with some very odd non-Democratic ideas. Very strange indeed. The anti-immigrant posts have been couched in language that makes the ideas seem as if those are common Democratic sentiments (and believ eit or not, they're NOT).

[jonnyblitz]

36. the support for "the minutemen" on the arizona border awhile

back was an eye-opener...quite a few here didn't seeem to mind they were fucking neo-nazi's because they "hadn't broken the law yet." :puke:

[Mass]

28. There have been very strange posts recently, I agree

Some of them really seemed to come from Republicans disguised as Democrats (as the one casting Kerry and Dean as too much to the left, for example, or the numerous ones calling not to fight for Roe vs Wade).

[paineinthearse]

29. Makes one wonder who's the DLC's "daddy"

[Disturbed]

30. Progressives

The purge of the Progressives is at hand.


During the Dem Convention the Progressives were forced to go along with the Pro-Iraqi War because the major weakness J. Kerry had was the stupid "War On Terror". On all other indicators, Kerry was strong, so the Dem leaders decided to go with Kerry the Vietnam Hero scenerio. As we all know that backfired big time. When the Swift Boat Liars emerged the Kerry team decided not to aggressively challenge that onslought until the damage was done.

By going to the "center" the Dems are once again vying for the swing voters and moderate Repubs. Big mistake.

All Progressives should join the Green Party and demand reform of the voting system!

[Mass]

31. Cant you see a GOP attack when you see it?

May be a couple of these people were really DLC, but this seems a lot more like a coordinated attack from the GOP.

But of course, it works only too well.

[madfloridian]

32. It got worse when DNC fundraising went up 50% over 2003.

It all just went on overload. Dean can say nothing right, where before we sort of were pulling together.

When the fundraising was announced, they came out of the woodwork to have their say....the pro-life Dems whom I do not yet trust, the ones who went to the DLC convention. The right wing bloggers are out against him in full force.

And then we have a little astroturfing going on...whether left or right not sure yet.

[Mass]

33. Let's say that if they are DLC, they are also stupid

Coming here is only going to reinforce the liberals to their opposition to the DLC, and divide the Democrats even more.

I can see them going on the air and explain why we need to be nice to the Republicans: that makes sense as a strategy (though I disagree totally), but I do not see what they can win here with these types of posts.

[OzarkDem]

37. Think of it as good news

The increase in funding from grassroots Dems is removing the bad policies and inertia from the party. Sure, they'll squawk like heck as they go down, but so what? They're still on the way out. If they're smart, they'll go with the Dem ideas that work.

Its good news, really it is.

[radio4progressives]

38. Neo Libs in bed with the Neo Cons - both are the enemy ..

both want to keep the bushies in power long enough to make sure any remaining vestiges of our Constitution and any real form of popular democracy, civil rights and economic justice is nailed shut in the progressive coffin forever.

Make no mistake, the DLC is just as much a part of this effort as the Neo Cons are - they've been working together for years giving our national treasury and natural resources away to Big Business/Corporations at the expense of ordinary citizens, or on the backs of the working class and the underclasses.

The DLC are not our allies - they ARE the enemy. (political)

All you have to do is ask yourself why now? Why these massive attacks against progressives now at this particular juncture?

more to the point on this here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1958326&mesg_id=1959282

[AlienGirl]

40. Locking

Flamebait.