Anyone else upset about this???

[MisterLiberal]

The recent discussions about the DLC, brought up an observation. While Howard Dean (at one time at least) represented the Democratic wing of the Democratic party, it seems now that the Repuke wing of the Democratic Party are posting here in ever increasing numbers.

This can't be good for us, and takes VALUABLE TIME away from discussing more important issues!

Seriously, watch for their messages:

* We need to move more to the center (codespeak for "Be more like the Republicans")

* We need to understand that the DLC knows better than we do

* We need to embrace the NRA

* We need to embrace those who want to overturn ROE

* We need to ignore civil rights if people are gay; it might offend someone

* We need to embrace the redstate knuckledraggers (I still have no idea what their justification is there)

And THEN they have the gall to come here and tell US that WE are the problem because "we're too far to the left".

THAT'S why I say I am GLAD that DU is a liberal forum, not "centrist" or "conservative". Why should we have to defend ourselves on our own board?

[Writer]

1. Centrist and conservative Democratic opinions ARE welcome here. n/t

[MisterLiberal]

2. From the rules:

Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.

That's kind of hard to support progressive ideals when you're a "centrist" or "conservative"...besides, why should we have to defend progressive ideals HERE of all places?

Can't we have just one place on the net without having to worry about those others?

[Writer]

4. All Democratic opinions are welcome here.

Or else my threads would get locked.

[burrowowl]

12. To paraphrase Gore Vidal

America has 2 right-wings!
Where is the center between the 2 RWs?
The Black Caucus and they may be even a little to the Left!
Allons enfants de la Patrie ....

[Erika]

3. This is the Republican agenda

Ignore them.

[MisterLiberal]

9. I try to ignore them

but there are SO MANY THREADS telling us to be more like the Repukes on so many issues that it is a problem.

[wli]

5. there's a difference between what we stand for and who is with us

So the issue with the DLC centers more around their trying to organize a faction within the Democratic party as opposed to holding differing views. The specific views are used to characterize them, not as things to be suppressed.

I would vastly prefer that the DLC participate with the DNC as opposed to splintering. The differing views can be accommodated in more productive ways than "parallel power structures," which are the hallmark of certain other movements' efforts to promote themselves.

[Carolab]

6. The DLC is desperately trying to hold onto power it USED to have.

The "progressive wing" is in charge now. They don't like that one little bit and so they attack Dean and put Hillary out in the spotlight with a conservative message to try to leverage themselves.

They are pandering and condescending and it is very offensive to the grassroots effort.

[Erika]

8. Agreed 100% n/t

[Goldmund]

7. Thanks for watching our backs, Inspector Gadget.

They do take up valuable time that we could use to work on Project X: The ultra-sterile, vacuum enabled, symmetrical monophonic echo chamber in which we'll keep genetically modified parrots.

[LittleClarkie]

10. And what will we do with those genetically modified parrots?

I know. We could have them run for office. Yessssss.

[Goldmund]

13. 10-4

[longship]

11. I will embrace anybody who wants to vote Democratic

But that doesn't mean that I have to embrace their issues.

And it certainly does not mean that the party should necessarily embrace their issues.

The Dem Party is the party of the people. There's room for all who share our values of honest, caring, and responsible government who puts the people in charge, not a President, not a church, not an army, and certainly not a faction of a political party.

The DLC sucks.

[MisterLiberal]

14. I'm not saying

that we don't vote for Democrats who aren't progressive, though I would strongly suggest against voting for those who are "conservative" regardless of party.

I am saying that ON THIS BOARD, we should be allowed to "let down our hair" and talk openly without taking so much time defending our ideals.

It even says so in the rules!!!

[LittleClarkie]

18. Perhaps you should start your own board then

where you can decide to your hearts content whether or not someone is liberal enough to hang with you.

As it is, if Skinner and Co had issues with certain posters, they'd be gone. I don't think they are reading the rules the way you are, and they should know, as they wrote them.

[NoMoreMrNiceGuy]

15. I think they should join the libertarian party and get the fuck outta here

Flame away I can take it....I live in Texas and am a proud liberal I've heard every put down known to man. They hate it when I tell them that Clinton was centrist who leaned more to the right than the left. We are in desparate need of a Bobby Kennedy right now.

[expatriot]

20. I think you should join the SWP and get the fuck outta here

Of course Clinton was too much of a corporatist centrist for my taste but Dubya is way too much of a theocratic ultra-corporatist fascistic ultra-conservative for my taste.

I'd do anything for Clinton to be in power again... how I wish to be in the streets protesting global corporatism and the evils of neo-liberalism and the slow privatization of the public sector rather than what we have now... which is such a greater evil... all the evils of Clinton are still happening but they are being buried with the exponential evils of Bush....


The rapture right and the ultra-nationalistic fascism of Bush is the ultimnate henchmen army for the true evils of unchecked corporate power to hide behind. We first need to politically neutralize these forces of evil, to force them out of power and then perhaps we can debate the finer issues again.

[MisterLiberal]

21. But

Are you saying that we have to BE MORE LIKE THEM TO WIN?????

If so, then we aren't really winning are we?

Think about it: To do so, we have to alienate the BASE of our party; abandon the principle of our stands and then you're saying after we've won that we could magically re-emerge and move to the left?

THERE IS NO LEFT after a move like that!

[expatriot]

23. The Democratic Party is not a single entity.

Once Clinton wins (for example)... the progressives who have a problem with various positions she takes can take to the streets and organize primary challenges to key congressional districts that we think can be more progressive. hell, support a progressive presidential candidate in the primaries for 2008... but don't throw bombs at the centrists of the party. It's a bell curve. we are the vangard at the end... the activist base... but we need the bulge to win.

[Clark2008]

26. Once she wins what?

Because she's not going to win the general election.

She may, sadly, win the primaries because of all the hype, but she won't win the general election.

Hello, President Frist. :scared:

[CWebster]

29. Or work to moderate the extremes of the Right

as opposed to imposing more Republican views on the Left.

[expatriot]

16. I'm very progressive but realize change cannot happen by denial

of political realites. One of the difference between being progressive and being a radical in my mind is that progressives see the virtue of small steps towards their goals whereas radicals are determined that anything less than the attainment of their goals in one mighty leap is unacceptable. Progressives strategize how to realize their ideas of social and economic justice by mapping a course through the current political reality, because progressives realize that nothing can be won without a pragmatic strategy of dealing with the political realities. Whereas the radical decries this pragmatic mapping out of routes through the system as "selling out to the system." The progressive never sleeps at the wheel, s/he is always vigiante in the coalitions s/he builds, never holding onto them longer they remain the most viable vehicle to attain the desired change.

Here is some responses to your claims.


* We need to move more to the center (codespeak for "Be more like the Republicans")
-- We need to win elections... we need to BEAT the Republicans in the battle for the hearts and minds of the suburban and rural Americans about issues that matter to them in their language.

* We need to understand that the DLC knows better than we do
-- We need to understand that if we (as <[rogressives) do not work WITH the centrists of the Democratic Party, the Republican Party will continue to win in national and congressional races.[br />
* We need to embrace the NRA
- We need to be able to convince gunowners that we are not trying to take away their shotguns and their squirrel guns and convince them that the NRA is partisan hack-group that does not speak for them.

* We need to embrace those who want to overturn ROE
- We need to speak to the vast majority of Americans who believe women should have choice but have reservations about the actual practice of abortion. We should not refuse to "embrace" this majority of Americans who think there needs to be some government safegaurds, regulations, etc. affecting the procedure of abortion... because if we label them as anti-choice pro-lifers they will accept that label and the Repugs will embrace them.

* We need to ignore civil rights if people are gay; it might offend someone.

* We need to promote the civil rights of gays by speaking to America about rights of gay partners AS a civil rights issue and not play into the Republican's hands by seeming to come across from middle America as being radicals trying to revolutionize the definition of marraige... as progressivesm most of us support gay marraige ( I know I do), but we must ask ourselves what will bring the widespread acceptance of gay marraige about faster - by refusing to accept civil unions as a compromise and thereby never realizing either the widespread acceptance of either civil unions OR gay marraige - or - working WITH those who support civil unions but do not support gay marraige and thereby seeing acceptance of civil unions sooner and then, after society sees that gay civil unions do not doom our society.. the idea of gay marraige will be much easier for middle America to swallow.o


* We need to embrace the redstate knuckledraggers (I still have no idea what their justification is there)
- We need to realize that in order to win national elections we need to get suburban and rural households who identify with what we would describe as being of the "red state culture" to vote Democrat.

[NoMoreMrNiceGuy]

17. HOGWASH

If Kerry had taken a more liberal stance we would have won in a landslide. You've fallen for the DLC propaganda.

[MisterLiberal]

19. Agreed

and that is my whole point.

This slide into "centrism" is damaging the Democratic Party and every fix we're being offered now is to COMPROMISE.

Guess what? We were stronger when we DIDN'T compromise!

[Stinky The Clown]

22. I'm a lefty, but I can support some of that .... to some degree ....

Move to the center? Nope. I used to be in the center. The center moved. I didn't. Now I'm seen as a radical.

The DLC knows better? Ha! 'nuff sed.

Embrace the NRA? Nope. But I **can** embrace rational and localized gun laws. In my heart of hearts I want all guns gone, but I won't live long enough. I'd be happy to see them become very sparse in urban areas. I can tolerate them in less urban areas where the lifestyle has guns as part of it .... more for sport than crime. Crimes with guns should get HUGE penalties.

Embrace those who would overturn Roe? Never. It (Roe) is just plain right. I could, however, allow for some laws that restrain it in certain cases, but by and large, it is, in the end, the woman's choice. Period.

Ignore the civil rights of gays? Never, ever, ever. Period. No qualifications.

I don't know what's meant by 'embracing knuckledraggers'. Are they worthy of being treated fairly? Okay. When everyone else is also treated fairly. Okay. When no one has rights diluted or eliminated to do so. Embrace their relgion (cuz I see this statement as code for that). I don't 'embrace' any religion. But I defend anyone's right to practice theirs ...... from evangelical to wiccan. Just keep it out of my life, my kids' lives, and my government.

So yeah ..... I can get beind some of this. But only in my own way. And that way is to be fair and have every treat each other as they would be treated themselves.

Cuz ya see ....... if you embrace the Golden Rule (at the crux of virtually ***all*** religions) you automatically 'embrace' everyone.

And isn't that what life's really about? Isn't that also at the heart of liberalism?

And if that's what the DLC is spouting these days, then I'm all for it.

But I suspect it isn't.

[TreasonousBastard]

24. I'm upset about this entire discussion, but I'm not going to lock it.

Yet.

This is Democratic Undergound-- not Liberal Underground, Neo-Liberal Underground, Socialist Underground, Troglodyte Dem Underground, DINO Underground or anything else but what it is.

Yes, we are primarily progressive, but the Democratic Party is much larger than a bunch of congresscritters in DC who have to respond to their own constituents in order to get elected. We are mayors, county commissioners, school board members, state legislators... all of whom have their own local concerns.

And we are the primary opposition to the Republicans, but no one person or group dictates what we as a party say or do.

Be proud to be a liberal Democrat, and speak your peace, but you must persuade those who disagree with you, not beat them into submission, and realize that you won't persuade all of them.

[rman]

25. Upset? No. But only because it's a reoccuring phenomena.

It takes just one poll to shut them up, untill the next time that is.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1959694&mesg_id=1959694

[CWebster]

27. Yep, it seems really obvious

but some can't see past that (D) label.

Sure makes easy work to herd the sheeple. ;-)

[union_maid]

28. Another poster said it best on another thread

You don't go extra distance for the same thing. Give people something different to vote for. In a lot of ways Kerry was on the right track. Unfortunately, he didn't turn out to be the great communicator that we need to get the message across, and he left too much to the imagination. I mean, it's nice if we can buy into the same healthcare system enjoyed by him and his colleagues, but for how much? That's an important issue and not to address it is either to miss the point or to fail to communicate.

Democratic (not DLC) economic values are both moral values and the most important kind of support for families that there is. That's really the bottom line. If you can get that message across, and if there are solid positions to back it up, we'll win.

[Skinner]

30. Locking.

We permit centrist Democrats to post here.