Tin foil hat disc. - Just watched JFK, what hope do we have?

[mrgorth]

So let me get this straight, the military/industrial/intelligence establishment killed JFK, RFK, MLK, maybe Malcom X, Wellstone and JFK jr. and we think we can change anything? What in the hell would make us think we could elect Howard Dean, John Kerry or anyone else that would actually be idealogically bent to change things for the better? Someone explain to me why I should have hope for our future.

[mattclearing]

1. You shouldn't.

They are willing to kill for it. We like to think that non-violent means can create change. They seem to have proven otherwise.

[Jack from Charlotte]

28. Anyone who gets their history from a movie is.....

a moron.

[getmeouttahere]

2. I hear ya....I think this is why...

folks who are old enough to remember the assassinations in the 60's are particularly upset by the course on which BushCo is taking the country. Anyone who is getting popular enough to be in a position to affect "real" change for the average citizen is deleted.

[SteppingRazor]

3. Here's why you can have hope...

Because JFK, RFK, MLK, etc., etc., weren't all killed by some all-powerful cabal made up of defense contractors, the Mob, the CIA, and whomever else is the conspiracy flavor of the day. If you build a prison for yourself, then don't come crying when you find yourself in jail.

[mrgorth]

4. Which part of the conspiracy theory don't you buy?

You think Oswald acted alone or just that Sirhan Sirhan, etc. did?

[SteppingRazor]

8. I'll bbuy that there might be something deeper to JFK...

But Jr. and Wellstone died in plane crashes. Period. First off, there's no reason to kill either of them. Jr. wasn't in politics, and Wellstone could be easily shrugged off -- he had big, brass ones, but he also regularly called for legislation that got defeated by gigantic margins. He was a voice crying in the wilderness, not a man that other Democrats would rally around.

The Nation of Islam wacking Malcolm X is the most logical and easily explained version of events -- Occam's Razor, and all that. In fact, the only things that smell of conspriacy even slightly are the Kennedy boys. I'm willing to keep an open mind as to "there was a conspriacy to kill either of the Kennedys." But even there, I draw the line at the idea that the conspirators in either case were the same people, members of some shadow goverment, who in turn were responsible for every other political death of the next 40 years. It just doesn't make any sense. It defies plausibility.

But as far as a single, one-time conspiracy by perhaps rogue agents, the Mob, or what have you to kill JFK, I'm willing to believe that. But there is, of course, no proof, and their likely never will be the futher we move away from the event itself.

[rman]

16. How many high level RW corporate/government/pop. movement figures

have died in plane crashes or due to lone gunmen?

Now compare that to the number of those kinds of people on the Left who lost their lives in unfortunate incidents.

Who were send antrax in the mail?
Which foreign leftist statesmen were murdered only to be replaced by dictators that had support from the US government?

Just about the only 'capitalist' that was murdered by the left was that guy who was kidnapped by the Bader Meinhof Gruppe, and indications are that group was set up in the cause of Operation Gladio.

[SteppingRazor]

20. All that proves is that the rightwing...

is much more likely to include nutjobs who will take up a gun and blow someone's head off.

[rman]

21. And the fact that the RW benefits from that is purely coincidental.

And since the RW is known for it's lack of organization, it could not possibly be an indicator that there's a pattern there of something bigger.

[SteppingRazor]

22. No, it's not coincidence. It's simple logic.

Look --

The rightwing is more likely to include homicidal maniacs. I think we can all agree on that point :)

If the far right is more likely to include those prone to murder, it's more likely to include "lone gunman" types.

If a rightwing gunman kills a leftwing leader, then ipso facto, the rightwing will benefit. There's no bizarre coincidence about it. It's just logic.

[Blue Belle]

24. Didn't Theresa Hines-Kerry's fist husband...

die in a plane crash?? I could be wrong (and probably am), but that is the only example that springs to mind.

[onenote]

27. take off the tinfoil -- repubs and rock stars die in plane crashes, too

Here's just a few of the elected officials/candidates:

Montana Gov. Donald Nutter
Montanda Gov. candidate Jim Waltermier
So. Dak Gov George Mickelson
Sen. John Tower
Cong.Jerry Pettis (R-CA)
Cong.Ralph Beemer (R-NEB)
Lewis Raphael, Ambassador to Pakistan
Richard Obenshain, Candidate for US Senate, VA
Cong.Larkin Smith (R-Mississippi)
Sen. John Heinz, R-PA

And of course, there's Larry McDonald, who was a Democrat in theory, but actually was a John Birch Society member, right wing nutjob.

My point? Politicians fly. A lot. Often on small planes. And sometime they die. Same thing for rock stars. Did the same folks who took out Wellstone and JFK Jr. also take out the Big Bopper and Buddy Holly? Or Ricky Nelson? Or the guys from Lynryd Skynrd? Or Jim Croce? Or the band Chase? (And I could go on and on) Or is there a separate conspiracy targeting musicians?

onenote

[corky44]

9. explain how Bobby got popped behind the ear from a gunman

who was bent over a butcher table by bodyguards
L A P D

[SteppingRazor]

15. Says who?

You're suggesting that Sirhan Sirhan was already taken down _before_ he ever produced a weapon?

[corky44]

25. google ambassador + kennedy + ear

see what comes up. something really weird happened that night.
of course this kind of operation always has things in common-
mass confusion, extreme violence and extraordinary access by those
"perpetrators" involved in the act.

[corky44]

26. you can't explain powder burns on Kennedy's ear

you just can't . Sirhan never got that close.

[Eloriel]

5. Thud

Another set of hopes and ideals hits the dust.

Great movie, wasn't it? There are plenty of people (and I assume they'll be along shortly) who will try to armwrestle you to the ground over the flaws and errors and outright lies and untruths in the movie -- but AFAIC, the overall tone and flavor are accurate enough for government work. It matters not to ME, anyway, if Stone took a little poetic license here and there: the gist of it is absolutely true from what I can tell.

Here's yet another take on it, from a book originally written in the early 70s, I believe, and now available on-line. It's a marvelous if very jarring (in its implications) book:

Farewell America
http://www.jfk-online.com/farewell00.html

Edited to add: I was also going to post that in someone else's "thud" post yesterday, I posted that for all the work we are doing (we = anyone trying to oppose the Bush administration), we're not aiming high enough. It's a little like the cartoonish image of a little guy wildly swinging his fists while the big guy he's trying to hit holds him firmly in place with one hand on his head, keeping the little guy safely beyond arm's length. We're just flailing our arms.

[Stand and Fight]

7. Thanks so much for posting this!

I had come across this link several months ago, but my computer at work shut down unexpectedly. I think you hit the nail right on the head in regards to Stone's film. The establishment has been out to get him for his films -- JFK, Nixon, etc... -- for some time now. They don't like him and they especially don't like his politics. Just look how many sites there are dedicated to "debunking" his films which clearly state that poetic license is taken. Thanks again for posting about this book, Farewell America. I know what I shall spend the next couple of days doing at work.

[Lerkfish]

6. Don't forgot George Bush Sr. was there at the JFK shooting.

and tried to implicate two other fellas for the shooting.

can't find the link at the moment, but there's a document from the time, detailing Bush sr's report, which is odd because it makes it seem like he's a normal citizen but he was a CIA employee at the time, I think.

[WinkyDink]

10. Nixon was in Dallas, also,

that 11/22/63. Later he claimed not to remember where he was that day.

[emcguffie]

11. Someone named "George Bush".

If he worked for the CIA then, it was not known. Gee, I guess he was a NOC! And there is a line somewhere in some report, that George Bush called from Dallas to warn about an assassination attempt, but it had just happened.

[corky44]

12. I go back to the pictures of newsmen standing at the fence

above the knoll straining to look over - this group included a young
Robert McNeil. Why rush up there? Reports of evidence of a sniper's
nest. You know multiple footprints and cigarette butts.
Obvious military operation in it's efficiency

[corky44]

14. You say to yourself " even if it is true you have to move on

because it happened so long ago and what can we do about it now?"
Well, who do you think is the model for the Bushies? Why do you think they feel they can get away with murder and stealing?
Because Kissinger is still walking around and nobody can touch him.
So I think it is important to keep this stuff current because they'll keep
doing it if you don't.
Oh by the way how did some country hick like James
Earl Ray get into the UK with a world wide manhunt underway?

[ArkDem]

13. Oliver Stone is perhaps the greatest historian of all time.

:smoke:

[rman]

17. And the single-bullet theory is just about the most plausible theory ever.

The more ridicule a CT receives the more likely it is to be correct, except for the ones that make it in the MSM, such as the moon landing hoax (a FOX viewers favorite) and the 'Bush caused the tsunami'.

[ArkDem]

19. What you said....

:smoke: :beer:

[Comicstripper]

18. Don't worry. "JFK" is full of shit!

:)

[wli]

23. not much

They've got the money and the guns to take out whoever gets in their way, and they have taken out whoever got in their way.

[applegrove]

29. I hope you know Oliver stone was just making a movie. It isn't

a documentary. It is based on the 'thinking' of one prosecutor who had his own theory. His POV. Great acting. Great movie. But not a documentary in any way - shape or form.