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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:39 AM
Original message
Poll question: Who/what is MOST responsible for our recent electoral losses?
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 09:42 AM by MyPetRock
Of course our losses are probably a combination of many of these factors, plus others I haven't thought of. But I'm interested in learning what y'all think has been the greatest factor in our downward spiral over the last 6 years.
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nickinSTL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. How about all of the above...
except for the whole, *'s outstanding record choice
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. That's my choice too
Each of the items listed is a factor in continued electoral disasters

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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. The democratic party
has become "anti-populist" under DLC rule. It is socially to the left which, while I support it, drives many away and we have become corporatist to boot. Truck driving white men hardly have a reason to vote for us without doing the necessary homework.
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jackster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. i voted "dirty tricks"
but black box voting IS a repuke dirty trick!
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
4. Perfect Storm
A compliant media, a Democratic Party that has stupidly tried to skew right to capture more votes, some voter fraud, some fair-to-middling candidates -- all of these things combined have caused problems, but no one of them can be said to be the downfall of the Democratic Party.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. great minds think alike...
I had just posted mine when I read yours.

good post.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. I guess I'm asking if one stands out in your mind as more responsible
than the others.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. "Some" voter fraud? How about "massive" election fraud? n/t
/
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Ah yes. I forgot that every electronic voting machine...
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 10:17 AM by SteppingRazor
was programmed to vote twice for Bush for every Kerry vote.

I'm not willing to rule hat out completely, but the fact that such little progress has been made in investigating black box voting speaks volumes. A conspiracy of that magnitude would mean the cooperative silence of hundreds if not thousands of people. Without strong evidence, I'm no longer as willing to buy into it (but for the record, I was at one time convinced of massive electronic-voting fraud)
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iconoclastic cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. I think you could name several conspiracies of that magnatude,
especially if you look at world history objectively.
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
5. you left out "all of the above"
I think it was the synergy between all of them that did it.
It was a coordinated effort, therefore I have trouble assigning "most" responsibility.
If any one or two were missing from that list, it might have turned.
I guess ultimately election fraud won the day, but that wouldn't have worked if the other factors were not in play to shave the election close enough to pull off the fraud.

IMHO.

I blame various on your list for various things. I blame whoever influenced Kerry to avoid calling out the swiftboat liars promptly instead of letting it fester, but at the same time, you have bin ladin's campaign commercial for bush on the eve of the election.
If I were to assign ONE cause, it would be the creeping ubiquitous corruption of all elected officials who are republican or who act like republicans. I would therefore think the neocon agenda has the underpinnings for this, but they needed to utilize all the other factors to accomplish it.

As far as MOTIVE, I blame the neocons.
As far as METHOD, I think they all played a hand.
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FloridaPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
8. The last 25 years the Democrats have not been the opposition party.
The repubs have done blatantly illegal things, blatantly immoral things, and the only thing anyone can remember over the last 25 years is Reagan is a conservative god and Clinton lied and was involved in a lot of dark dealings. The Democrats haven't done much to take over.

Another problem though is: the do nothing problem. If there is nothing to fix, why have a plan to fix it. SS for instance. There is nothing that is wrong with it a little tweaking won't fix. But the repubs want to redo it and accuse the Democrats of not having a plan. Well, one dones't need a plan, but the Democrats look inept because they don't have one and for some reason can't articulate loudly and clearing how best to deal with SS.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
46. Echoing FloridaPat.......my answer is "Other"
Reaganomics
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
9. A combination of factors
2004 was a prime example.

First, they rigged the primary so that the DLC would get their candidate.

Then the mediawhores savaged that candidate. To make matters worse, he didn't fight back nearly as much as he should have.

Meanwhile the DLC ensured that the campaign was weak.

Despite their best efforts to sabotage the election, a record number of voters turned out, and logic dictates that the majority of them turned out because they were disgusted with the direction of this country.

But Diebold took care of that little problem.


You can't look at all of this and put the blame on just one factor. ALL of these factors must be dealt with if we're ever going to have a truly fair election in this country again.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. I agree! Too many choices apply...
A combination of "DNC and/or DLC policies", "Poor electoral campaigns by candidates", and "Repuke dirty tricks" (Stealing elections is the dirtiest of dirty tricks).

If I have to choose one as "most responsible": To my mind, I am not willing to give the DLC/DNC another "strike". Two strikes, and they are OUT. If they "annoint" our candidate this time, too, we will lose. If we lose one more time, the Democratic Party is dead, and so is our beloved America. Party unity be damned, I am resisting Hillary with every ounce of my being. Ditto Kerry, Biden, Vilsak and any other card-carrying DLC member. Never again.

AntiCoup2K4, your post is right on the money.
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
10. I can't solely blame the candidates
sure, we have run some stinkers, but look at what the 'Pukes have fielded! No way in a non-fictitious world would've a Bush ever been President - a Reagan either!

There is a lot of blame to go around, and I have to agree with the poster who said a Perfect Storm of blame.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. Repuke dirty tricks includes all of
DNC and/or DLC policies (by proxy)

Poor electoral campaigns by candidates (at least in part by proxy - damn advisors)

The stupid American electorate (makes it easy to game the system)

Media whore propaganda (who owns the media)

Black box voting
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. nice, you got all the RW talking points there
-
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Yeah, smells like Freep Spirit, doesn't it?
:eyes:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Deleted message
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. sure, whatever
i've heard it all before
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Deleted message
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. NO. Candidates are losing because they no longer speak to core
democratic values. They have SOLD OUT to corporate interests, and think that looking Repuke lite will actually get them more votes from Democrats. :crazy:
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. That's pretty much what I think...not enough distinction between the
parties anymore except the often stereotypical 'God, guns and gays' issue folks ('God' of course referring to a whole host of unholy ideas that really have nothing to do with Christianity, if that's the point...)
I miss Paul Wellstone. We need to step up to the plate and take over. All of us.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Oh, yes, I totally agree. And I so miss Wellstone.
:cry:
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PatsFan2004 Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
12. Plus there is the general problem of population movement.
New York and the northeast is losing rightwing population to the southwest. This will probably cause NY to lose electoral votes and for Texas, AZ, and so on to gain electoral votes. This makes it more of an uphill battle for 2010 and beyond.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. But the leftwing is moving East and West.
People who can't get to Canada sure can move to more progressive areas in America. I say let the ignorant bottom feeding wingnuts move to the financially depressed South. I'm sure they can find lots of cheap trailer parks to their liking. GOOD RIDDANCE. We can at least keep the East and most of the West Coast civilized.
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PatsFan2004 Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Unfortunately, it appears that most of the movers are from the
upper classes, those who can afford to move. These folks have money and right wing ideas.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Do you mind posting a link to substantiate this claim?
My opinion is that rich people (whether Dem or Repub) tend to stay in wealthy areas where they can enjoy the lifestyles they have become so comfortably accustomed to. I know that rich Jews have moved to Florida in the past (many of my husband's family did so). But I've heard through family and friends that this trend is ending due to intolerance and blatant rightwing politics in that state. Instead old Jews are going to Arizona or California. This is anecdotal, but from a very informed source. :D
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PatsFan2004 Donating Member (245 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I can't remember the commentary, but states like NY
cannot afford to lose population and maintain political clout. We know that the 2000 census moved electoral votes to the Southwest from the Northeast. There were a number of articles before the 2004 election about the fact that the Bushies had a built-in advantage in that the "red" states had more electoral votes than in 2000.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. I don't believe that is true.
I'll try to look for something to substantiate my position, but the truth is that there are only a few truly red and blue states. Most are "purple". That aside, I believe that in general blue electoral votes outnumber red.
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Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
37. No thank you. You can keep your own wingnuts. We have enough of...
...them down here in our "trailer parks" already. And believe it or not, we even have homes down here, too! With electricity and running water to boot!
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aspberger Donating Member (230 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
45. LOL n/t
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cmd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
13. Me
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Humor_In_Cuneiform Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
27. It is the central tabulators even more than the
paperless voting machines.

Thousands of votes at a time can be changed by this software.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
29. If Dems were so bad then why do Repubs need to control vote machines and
the broadcast media to keep Bush propped up?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
30. A combination of...
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 05:12 PM by wyldwolf
... the public's perception of post 60s Democratic policies and a media more than willing to report the smears that the rightwing employs.

Oh the media would have reported any efforts by the left to fight back but - until recently - the left wouldn't fight back and if you called for us to do so, you were told "liberals take the high road... we won't sink to their level."

But I will ask for about the 1000th those who pick "DLC."

Give me some evidence that the DLC caused any electoral losses.
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Lecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
31. The reason why Democrats lost was because Bushco pimped 911
Edited on Wed Jul-27-05 05:36 PM by Lecky
(as well as the MSM)

They trusted Bush to protect them from "terra" more than Kerry (and Democrats in general).

Fear is a very VERY powerful propaganda tool.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
32. My first impression was "All",
but after thinking about it, I choose DNC/DLC.

With good LEADERSHIP, none of the others would have been significant.

Good leadership (The responsibility of DNC(DLC) would have recognized the problems with BBV, and would have STOPPED GOVERNMENT calling for NATION WIDE strikes until this insult of unverifiable elections was corrected!

Good Leadership would provide a CLEAR SPECIFIC PLATFORM of Worker Rights that would resonate across the country and allow local candidates to be identified with National Unity and Power. (Anyone read the Democratic Platform lately? What IS it we stand for?) Even lackluster marginal candidates would be able to hold up Platform of Worker Rights and say "This is what I stand for!" (Remember the brilliant Gingrich campaign "Contract with America?)

The LEADERSHIP of the Democratic Party IS ultimately responsible for our current situation!
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
34. poor candidates and voters who prefer to bitch than volunteer
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
36. "play it safe" issues and a refusal to tell the truth about Bush & the GOP
n/t
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. My mind can't get around the concept that we play it safe & thereby lose.
What exactly is "safe" about this carefully designed strategy???????????????? I know you are not a DLCer, but if you have any insights into this seeming madness, please share. I don't get it, unless the DLC is part of the cabal. Please, God, NO!
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
38. Obviously BBV is largely to blame, but it was way too close for my
liking even without the fuckers lying and stealing.
I think the biggest thing is the issues - we HAVE NOT been good about articulating OR supporting issues that would resonate with middle American voters. Jobs. Decent pay. Being able to REALLY get ahead economically, instead of just dreaming about it while watching the Conservative Elite rack up more billions. Taking care of our lovely planet, maybe...just a thought. SERIOUSLY supporting alternative energy sources.
That kind of thing. Not to mention supporting the usual good things, like telling the government (and the fundies/Vatican) to keep its fuckin' nose out of my bedroom, body and belief system.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
41. THE RELIGIOUS REICH -- Their Army of Electoral Shock Troops
We underestimate the Religious Reich at great peril. The Corporatists may think they are just using the RR for political gain, but the RR is dead serious, and they are in this for the long haul.

The RR will increase it's power over minds and politics. There are more Electoral Shock Troops in the RR than in any other hardened, unified political constituency. The troops of the RR are immune to the "worldly" influence of the media and advertising campaigns. They get their marching orders directly from God's Generals like Dobson and Falwell.

***
***

Fundamentalist Radical Clerics such as Falwell, Dobson, and Robertson are not merely medieval throwbacks or misguided religious hacks. They are part of a well organized subversionary movement known as "Dominionism". Dominionism constitutes a serious threat to American Democracy. These Radical Clerics have developed and are executing a detailed plan to gradually replace the free, secular democratic society of the United States with a Theocracy.

It is critical that people become aware of the extreme agenda these people have for the United States and ultimately for the world. The results of the 2004 Presidential Election were not a fluke or something that was drummed up over a period of months. It has been in planning for over 20 years, and what we are seeing take place now is, in the words of Katherine Yurica, "the swift advance of a planned coup".

The Swift Advance of a Planned Coup: Conquering by Stealth and Deception - How the Dominionists Are Succeeding in Their Quest for National Control and World Power
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheSwiftAdvanceOfaPlannedCoup.htm

The Despoiling of America: How George W. Bush became the head of the new American Dominionist Church/State
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/TheDespoilingOfAmerica.htm
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
44. Media whore propaganda.
Could the Associated Press (AP) Rig the Election?
by Lynn Landes 10/22/04


The Associated Press (AP) will be the sole source of raw vote totals for the major news broadcasters on Election Night. However, AP spokesmen Jack Stokes and John Jones refused to explain to this journalist how the AP will receive that information. They refused to confirm or deny that the AP will receive direct feed from voting machines and central vote tabulating computers across the country. But, circumstantial evidence suggests that is exactly what will happen.

(snip)

But, can't the AP be trusted? Isn't it an objective non-partisan news organization? Some say no. The AP is batting for a Bush presidency.

In Online Journal, Stephen Crockett and Al Lawrence, the hosts of Democratic Talk Radio, wrote, "...the Associated Press ran a story that was widely published in newspapers and on the Internet, headlined "Bush Leads Kerry In Electoral Votes," that could have been written by the Bush campaign. The assignment of states to candidates, the headline and the conclusions were all simply wrong. The Associated Press should print a retraction and work to see that it is widely published."

And on WBAY TV in Green Bay, Wisconsin ran an AP article reporting that Bush has won the election, weeks before the election is to take place. The AP reported, "At this hour, President Bush has won re-election as president by a 47 percent to 43 percent margin in the popular vote nationwide. Ralph Nader has 1 percent of the vote nationwide. That's with 51 percent of the precincts reporting." According to reports, the AP is now saying the article was a "test article," a never-heard-before journalistic practice.


http://www.ecotalk.org/AP.htm



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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. O-M-G, n/t
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grannylib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-27-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. holy flurking schnitt....never seen this one before. and as always, i
wonder where the HELL were the rest of the media on this one?
i want to cry.
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