Is Clark a talented amateur or the real deal?

[Wetzelbill]

Obviously, the man is the pure academic intellectual of the group. Rhodes scholar. Medals. Supreme Allied Commander. The General cuts a pretty sharp figure and has one helluva resume'. Not to mention his endorsements are impressive too. He is a political rookie, however, but I have noticed his stump speeches have become better and he is getting more into the role of a campaigner. Yet, he had some trouble when he was hachet jobbed by Brit Hume last week in the debate and some of the repurcussions have not totally faded away. So is the General merely a gifted rookie or is he going to do some damage here in the next few primaries? I'm impressed by his credentials and his ability to improve so much as he has gone along, but I'm not totally convinced he's ready for primetime.

How about the rest of you?

[bowens43]

1. Not only is he 'not ready for primetime'

he's not ready for late night public access cable. The man has nothing. A uniform full of empty rhetoric.

[jmaier]

3. Don't sugarcoat it.

Tell us again how you really feel? :-)

Frankly, I don't know the difference between a talented amateur and 'the real deal'. Frankly, Clark is no more gaffe prone than Howard Dean and fires up a crowd much more than Kerry who has been at this for 30 years.

While we remember Kerry's sterling interview moments. Can you recall his odd press comments after firing his campaign manager? They were inspiring TV.

Only Edwards and Lieberman, frankly, seem to stay on message and rarely err. Of those two, only Edwards is exciting. Bottom line, I don't know how to judge this issue as presented!

[Wetzelbill]

7. you could argue that Dean is a bit of an amateur too, since he

is new to the national stage.

This is a tough question. It's all in your opinion in judging how to answer it. I'm more or less interested in everybody's ideas and sentiments. I just like hearing from smart people who disagree with me and each other, in all honesty. It's fun hitting issues and convictions from all sides.

[democratreformed]

15. Frankly, I don't know the difference between a talented amateur and

"the real deal".

That's me too. His is both. Being an amateur at playing the political game, to me, does not reflect poorly on his ability to be a good leader. His sincerity is one thing that will make him great.

[digno dave]

22. Clark is a democratic presidential candidate

he's not ready for late night public access cable. The man has nothing. A uniform full of empty rhetoric.



I agree. Let him go back to teaching Political Philosophy and Economics at West Point, or commandeering a multi-national force of nations, or amassing millions at investment banking, or testifying to Congress regarding national security issues...

[henslee]

25. I'll take a talented amateur anytime pal.... Don't tell me the rules....

Don't tell me what can't be done. This is a country that was built by self styled mavericks..... It's our national characters. The soldier that becomes a politican. The doctor who became a politician. Look at our movies our myths. Look at the history of this country...... its greatness is forged in its mold breaking.... There are no limits.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

2. If he'd involved himself in Dem. politics for four or five years before

the election, he would be pretty much unstoppable. He hasn't, and it shows. He's obviously on a steep learning curve, and the proof will be in how well he masters it.

[LuminousX]

4. Impressed by his strategy and tactics, not impressed with him

He holds up his resume and says "See, I'm good enough for the President." Unfortunately, the types of references I look for to back up certain positions are missing from the resume.

"It says on your resume that you are a proponent of a woman's right to choose and you would not appoint judges that would go against that right. Can I have a few examples of the types of judges you have appointed in the past or have voted on in the past? Oh, I see, you've never been in a position where you had to make such a decision before.

"Well, then, how about your position on Civil Rights. I see you have Acxiom listed on your resume but you make it clear you had no clue what CAPPSII was about. Okay...."

[Auntie Bush]

21. How many judges did any of the others appoint?

[Toucano]

5. It's prime time that's not ready for him.

He sometimes compares unfavorably to the "seasoned" politicians because he doesn't have the standard political answers to questions. The media isn't sure how to handle a candidate who doesn't, as Chris Matthews once said, "Give me a soundbite!"

He needs to add just enough stump rhetoric to get attention, but remain his natural self.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

10. Get your facts straight if you're going to bash Wes Clark.

He's not a republican, has NEVER been a republican. He voted for Clinton, TWICE and Gore in 2000. He was never a member of a political party because that is how they do it in Arkansas and in the military. You don't register with a party in Arkansas. He was an Independent. He registered as a Democrat in 2002. Sorry, but the facts don't match your rhetoric.

[Submariner]

19. He voted for Nixon and Reagan, and he said so

The facts speak for themselves.

[Qutzupalotl]

20. He voted for Clinton and Gore.

The man sees the light.

[lazarus]

27. I voted for Reagan

Does that mean I can't be a Democrat anymore, either?

60% of the voters voted for Reagan. I guess we don't want them, either.

As for being a "kiss-ass", that's not how you make the 4th star.

[MariaS]

30. What exactly

qualifies someone as a democrat. Is it a birth right? Do you have to be born into the party? So anyone who ever voted republican can never be a democrat. I voted for our county coroner and she was a republican does that mean I can't call myself Democratic even though I am a registered Dem. Please do give me you definition of a "TRUE DEMOCRAT"

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MariaS]

45. I consider myself

an independent because I like to think for myself and judge each candidate based on their merit. Not vote in lockstep to please a party. If that were the case I might as well be a republican.

[girl gone mad]

11. He seems to be...

pretty far to the left of Kerry and Dean. At least he testififed against using force in Iraq while Kerry was enabling Bush to do just that.

Some people like that he is an outsider. Is he an opportunist? Seems likek he declined many opportunities to work in the Pentagon/Defense industry revolving door, and if he were really power hungry, he would have been better off becoming a Republican.. they pursued him.

[arewethereyet]

29. he also testified how great the war effort and leadership was

he says he's this and that and sometimes it changes to that and this. We don't know.

Are you willing to roll the dice and hope you know how he really feels or would it be better to go with someone who has an actual record demonstraiting with actions, how they feel ?

He retired and went to work in the military industrial complex just like all generals do. And you will recall that he himself said that Rove did not return his calls.

Better start getting your information from somewhere other than Clark4prez dot com.

[krkaufman]

23. Nothing to back-up the claim

Clark was a kiss ass typical of the officers that make it through the ranks to General. I saw it during the VN war in th '60s a hundred times.

This comment provides no factual, objective evidence to support the claim -- as it relates to General Wesley Clark. Clark has demonstrated far more consistency and integrity in this campaign than many of the other candidates*, and, regardless of his end-result, I respect him for that.

It will be interesting to see, though, whether the Clark campaign tone changes if they're on the ropes after Feb 3rd.

* As just one example, Senator Kerry is nearly tearful on '60 Minutes' on Sunday night while recalling his anti-Vietnam testimony, but then defends his IWR vote sending, to date, 512 US soldiers to their deaths in an elective war -- even in the face of mass world-wide opposition and facts underscoring the absence of an imminent threat.

[JasonDeter]

8. Clark knows what he believes and the more he articulates it

the clearer he becomes. The only question now is can he hang in there long enough for the American people to get a chance to listen.

[arewethereyet]

33. aren't smart people supposed to be able to articulate well ?

Kurt Vonnegut in "Cat's Cradle" (I believe) in a dialog between the boss of a crew of scientists and a clerk with Vonnegut's reporter in tow says "Any scientists who can't explain his ideas to a 12 year old is a charlatan".

That always struck me as very true.

The equally great following line from the clerk was "Just goes to show how dumb I am, I don't even know what a charlatan is".

(I think I'm pretty close on these quotes, appologies to Mr Vonnegut if I've missed.)

[JasonDeter]

38. I've heard Clark give speeches and he did great to me.

I'm sure every human being who speaks as much as these people do will say something now and then that needs explaining. And I give all these Democrats the benifet of the doubt. Even Deans 'I have a scream' speech, even though it made me go ewwww when I heard it on the radio. Clark hasn't said one thing off that wasn't explained to my satisfaction.

[arewethereyet]

42. I hear you

but why does he have to keep explaining himself ?

This goes well beyond his not being a polititian. He has had to address groups of people before and ones where being precice was not just a good idea but a potential source of diplomatic "issues" on a national scale.

The guy is NOT stupid and yet this continues to happen over and over.

Why does he not take the time to prepare himself ? He certainly knows how. I cannot understand why in this, the most important "job interview" in the world, he is leaving himself so open.

I'm more baffled than anything else and thats a bad way to feel about someone who wants to lead the free world.

[JasonDeter]

44. BUT they're SO minor! God that the media would so parse bush!!

nt

[CivilRightsNow]

40. Fantastic analogy.

n/t

[arewethereyet]

41. I always knew that was going to come in handy

just never knew why

[brainshrub]

9. Perhaps he is amature

but he did a great job when he got a surprise interview from Democracy Now!.

[krkaufman]

24. Got a link for surprise Democracy Now! Clark interview

> but he did a great job when he got a surprise
> interview from Democracy Now!.

Link?

[ConsAreLiars]

36. Democracy Now! and Senate testimony links

Both of these are good information about Clark:

Monday, January 26th, 2004
EXCLUSIVE: DEMOCRACY NOW! Confronts Wesley Clark Over His Bombing Of Civilians, Use Of Cluster Bombs And Depleted Uranium And The Bombing Of Serb Television

Watch the video if you can, regardless of your views on these subjects.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/26/1632224

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/clark.perle.testimony.pdf
I recommending reading the whole thing if you wish to do some fact-checking about what Clark's views actually were, rather than relying of the selective quotes on Drudge repeated on DU.

But, as very short indication about how the Cons looked at Clark's analysis, following is Perle on Clark's views:
"He seems to be preoccupied, and I'm quoting now, with building legitimacy, with
exhausting all diplomatic remedies as though we hadn't been through diplomacy for
the last decade, and relegating the use of force to a last resort, to building the
broadest possible coalition, in short a variety of very amorphous, ephemeral
concerns alongside which there's a stark reality and that is that every day that goes
by, Saddam Hussein is busy perfecting those weapons of mass destruction that he
already has, improving their capabilities, improving the means with which to deliver
them and readying himself for a future conflict."

[in_cog_ni_to]

12. Look at how far he has come

since Sept. when he entered the race! The man has a Mach 5 learning curve! He is more than ready for primetime, but I do think, perhaps, his campaign people are holding him back a bit too much. The rally yesterday on C-SPAN was a perfect example of what the man can do when he IS let loose! He rocked the place! He is so damn intelligent and can learn ANYTHING he needs to to get the job done. About the debate...I think he handled that perfectly, IMO. It's Peter Jennings and Faux News that looks stupid for asking the questions they asked. The longer he does this, the better he will be. COMPARE WES TO THE CHIMP-IN-CHIEF! Chimp has been in politics for how many years? Politically, Wes is 100 times better. Compare him to Lieberman...sheesh! He makes Joe look really bad and he's a life long politician. He's more than ready for primetime...He's ready for the WHITE HOUSE...1600 Pennsylvania Ave.!:bounce:

Go Wes!

[Wetzelbill]

13. good answer

[andym]

14. He is an amateur, but he is a good one

He is not a professional politician, he admits it himself.
He wants to be a public servant, not a politician.

Now he has been getting better and better at the political game. Hopefully he learns from that last debate to turn every question to his advantage as he did on MTP. It is an art to be able to turn an attack to your advantage, and he still needs to improve on it in the horrible time-limited debate format. Let's see if he can.


For example, the Bush as a deserter question could have been a great segue to Bush has deserted the country today.

It's almost unheard of that a non-politician can be elected President. Eisenhower is the only modern example, and he was well known to the public as a heroic figure.

I think Clark is still surprised at how the political world operates and at the very least down the road he is going to write a very informative book about his experience .

[Qutzupalotl]

16. Both.

Not a seasoned politician, but a talented talker who makes sense. Given the chance to finish a sentence, he'll do well. Current debates are so crowded, they don't allow enough time for him to fully explain himself. But on the road, he's electrifying.

Plus, if the pundits would ask about his policies instead of using the "gotcha" tactic, you'd see what a fine leader he will be. He is the real deal, maybe our last chance to get an honest person in the White House.

The media wants to loosen consolidation rules (as they just did in the omnibus spending bill, and even further)--so they're pushing Bush and slamming any strong Dem contender. Fuck them.

[Indiana Democrat]

17. He's an amature...

...but unfortunately he's not "Talented". He's rank.

("Politcially" speaking, of course.)

[John_H]

18. Clark may be an "Amateur" in the technical sense but

Bush is an "incompetent" in every sense.

[Loren645]

26. Real Deal. He's not part of the slick pol problem; he's the solution.

And don't let the media program you.

Look at how badly Kerry bungles the IWR vote issue no matter
how many times he's asked. He rambles on, lulls people into a coma,
and leaves 'em wondering what the heck he said.

Classic pol rhetorical tactics.

[arewethereyet]

28. he's an amature and not ready for off-Broadway

he's painful to watch.

He's smart, no denying that. But he does not know what he's doig and it shows.

He needs to look at his 4th place tomorrow and realize its the handwritting on the wall and do the right thing.

[krkaufman]

31. Not...

> He (Clark) needs to look at his 4th place tomorrow and
> realize its the handwritting on the wall and do the right
> thing.

NH is just a warmup/practice state for Clark. Better than 4th will be gravy. Feb 3rd-8th is his big week. He'll want a couple wins then, definitely.

Some concern *is* warranted if he finishes in single digits in NH, but it still is nothing like a death knell.

Kerry needs to be concerned, though. His big lead may have dwindled in NH, and, if he doesn't win NH, the Feb 3-8 voters will definitely be shopping around. Even a narrow win for Kerry, after his huge lead earlier (in the widely varying, skewed and untrustworthy) polls, may increase his vulnerability. It *is* his home turf. (Along with the fact that he's expressed some disinterest in winning votes in the South.)

[arewethereyet]

34. 2/3 may well be troublesome for Kerry

he needs a lot of momentum to carry him through that.

The January Surprize that was Iowa made NH more than a warm up despite what he wanted. He had the place to himself and needed to have made an impact there and that just didn't happen.

His plans got changed for him.

[windansea]

32. I'll take Clark over a "seasoned pol" every time

am sick of doubletalkin panderers always taking the safe route

[gulliver]

35. Same here.

I want someone who will shake things up for the Democrats. Clark is a breath of fresh air. Much as I like both Kerry and Edwards, they are part of the play it safe crowd that landed us in Iraq and gave us these huge deficits.

[Leilani]

37. Me Three

Professional Pols have become Professional Liars.

I'm tired of it all; everything is totally screwed up & it was screwed up by professionals.

I want an intelligent outsider.

[mikehiggins]

39. Clark is the real "real deal"

Clark is the candidate that 50,000 people vetted before he declared his candidacy.

He is our candidate because we beleive he can go up against George Bush and win, which the experienced, skilled professional politicians in this race seem to have had some problems with over the past few years.

We looked for a man with character to contrast with the white bread phony now inhabiting the White House. We had no faith in the Governor of Vermont or the guy who will spend his life as the junior Senator for Massachusetts. Until Iowa Edwards was a joke and it turns out the only one of the others with any credentials is his new bestest friend Dennis Kuchinich.

Clark is running to beat Bush. If you don't like him back someone else. The folks who've been with him from the start will be with him to the end. We didn't want another same old, same old professional politician who spends most of their time speaking out of both sides of their mouths and just don't get how their failed policies and failed compromises have brought us to this situation.

If YOU think the "pros" ready for "prime time" have done such a good job for America, well then you are free to vote for one of them.

We'll stick with our guy.

[DianeG5385]

46. He is the only candidate who can beat Bush

YEEAAAHHH!