Kerry vs Clark in 2008 (one-on-one poll)

[IndianaGreen]

Poll question: Kerry vs Clark in 2008 (one-on-one poll)

Congratulations to John Kerry for totally trouncing Hillary Clinton on the bipolar, one-on-one poll.

Assume that we are at the end of the primary season, and there are only two candidates still in the race, John Kerry and Wes Clark. As we often must do in the Fall elections, the choice is between two viable candidates. Kerry and Clark are both attractive candidates, each having a dedicated following. What if we had to choose one or the other?

For the purposes of disclosure, I would probably choose Kerry. Kerry has experience in making things happen in government, and he also knows (sometimes painfully) the limitations of government. Clark lacks any experience in elective office, something that may or may not be significant to you. Clark does have an exemplary record of military service. It would not be an exaggeration to say the Wes Clark is the closest thing we have to a modern version of General George C. Marshall.

[geek tragedy]

1. Wesley Clark: He's much smarter and he comes from working class

roots. A patrician social climber simply is the wrong person to make a populist argument against the tools of the wealthy class.

[Mass]

3. I like both of them

I guess we should dismiss Kennedy and Roosevelt as well.

[geek tragedy]

7. "Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy or Franklin Roosevelt."

Remember that JFK and FDR also were elected in a long stretch (1932-1964) in which the only Republican elected was RINO Eisenhower.

[Mass]

11. That was not my point -

My point is that, according to your reasonning, none of them is good as they both come from much wealthier families than Kerry.

[geek tragedy]

14. And neither had spent the past two decades living in Washington DC.

He might make a fine executive and policy-maker, but he makes an inappropriate and ineffective messenger.

[blm]

80. Name one Dem who was able to get a message through the broadcast media

that wasn't spun out of proportion afterwards.

Every primary candidate was eventually characterized by the Rove-spun media.

What does the public know about Dean - His responsible approach to governing or that he's just another angry antiwar guy who hates Bush?

Edwards? His wholly honest concern for the underdog or smiles pretty, no gravitas?

Clark? That he was a highly competent leader or that alot of other military leaders couldn't stand the "perfumed prince" at all?

The Dem party needs to expose the GOP control over most broadcast media - the best parts of our campaigns are left on the editting room floors.

[IndianaGreen]

5. When compared to the Bush imperial family...

even a Boston Brahman would be considered working class.

[Mass]

9. Kerry is not working class . He is not from a wealthy family either

rather upper middle class.

[geek tragedy]

12. Notice the "social climber" portion. Moreover, we need someone

who hasn't lived in DC for the past two decades.

[Mass]

17. AS I said, I understood you too well

Thanks for the RW talking point. Disappointing from somebody who is not a RWer.

[geek tragedy]

20. Do you think Kerry was an effective candidate? Do you think he was

able to deliver the party's populist message convincingly to blue collar workers?

[Mass]

26. From all I have seen, yes.

Except if we are talking of pushing more to the right on social issues, which is somewhere I do not want to go and I do not think Clark would have gone.

[Broken_Hero]

56. Yes...

But he delivered it to a population who wasn't watching. In my experience, most of the RW people i know, who voted for GWB, didn't even watch the debates, of the 11 RW i debate/associate with, 2 watched the debates, but only the first one, and 9 didn't watch a damn thing. So, if a bear screams in the woods, and no one is around, did the bear scream? I think Kerry falls inline with that. I thought he was articulate, and did a better than average job pushing democratic initaitives, but i don't think he pushed hard enough. Either he was told to not look aggressive and go after GWB with a fire brand, or this is how Kerry is in debates, but him being a Lawyer, i'm more inclined to think he was told to not be totally agressive and tear GWB a new one, but do it in a tactful, logical way.

But when is the average mentality of the USA ever tactful, or logical? If kerry came into the debate and gave GWB the Stone Cold Stunner, i bet/know that Kerry would be in the WH now, probably...:) I know Kerry wasn't the best, or the worse to run for president, he did do very well, but the average person, didn't watch the debates, or even listen to him probably. Most people vote for people on emotion, than any other factor, and I guess a lot of people have good emotion or good first impression of GWB and base all their decisions on that, than fact, logic, or reason. I don't know, but, i do think Kerry did a good job, he was my third choice in the primaries, i was a Dean, Clark, Kerry ....

[LittleClarkie]

40. Ah, Kerry the gigilo

I haven't heard that one since I was dealing with a freeper on an EZboard.

Not calling you a freeper. I just hate it when people on our side adopt Republican talking points against someone they don't like on our side. The flip-flop, the "he looks like Frankenstein", the "everybody on the Democrat side was ABB", the windsurfing elitist meme.

Kerry has a good pedigree, but the money portion was diluted by his mom being one of several children on the Forbes side. They were comfortably upper middle class, with a maiden auntie with money who made sure young Kerry went to the proper schools (which he hated) on her dime.

He's always been something of an outsider. He wasn't quite rich enough. He was a Democrat among Republicans at his boy's school. He had a sense of service instilled by his civil servant dad, which is probably where he also got his wonkishness. He talks like a Brahmin, and has manners like one when he isn't swearing like a sailor, but unlike Bush, he wasn't near as privledged. He'd actually held jobs in his life.

So many things don't sound right coming out of that proper New England mouth of his, even when they're true. He'd talk about the jobs he'd held, and before I got to know him, I thought he was bullshitting. But he wasn't.

--------

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, why is it that folks always want a babe in the woods. Why is that appealing. I want someone who knows the ropes personally. I remember all those freshman Congress people during the Clinton admin, all fresh faced and ready to change the world, until they found out how things are actually done, that is.

I want someone with integrity, who still knows the system and how to get things done. People don't notice when Kerry gets things done, because what he's doing is usually wonkish and not terribly loud or sexy. People tend to ignore him.

But he's still the most qualified guy for the job we have.

Apparently the most qualified guy is not what the country wants, however. They want somebody they can have a fucking beer with, as if they ever would.

Feh.

[IndianaGreen]

13. Remember when they made an issue of his fluency in a foreign language?

Bush is barely fluent in English, and the rightwing yahoos could not stop babbling about Kerry's fluency in French.

At least Kerry and Clark know where the English Channel is. Can we say the same thing about the Chimp?

[Mass]

19. As I said, I like both.

I am just tired of seeing some people repeating RW talking points on DU (I am referring to social climber from another poster).

[geek tragedy]

22. It's not a RW talking point. It's a "give someone else a chance" talking

point.

[Mass]

28. No problem if the candidate is better

Using talking points about Kerry marrying somebody for money is what disturbs me, nothing else.

AS I said, there are 3 people I'd like to see in 08: Kerry, Clark, or Feingold.

I will stop here. There will be enough people to start a flame war without me.

[AntiCoup2K4]

44. Of course the Chimp knows where the English Channel is!

"Sure I know the English Channel! I watch it on TV over at Tony Blair's house all the time. BBC, right?"

[haypops]

138. 4 languages actualy

I think Clark is supposed to speak passabaly in 4 languages including spanish and Russian.

[geek tragedy]

10. A Boston Brahman, maybe. A Boston Brahman with the Heinz family

fortune, no.

[Mass]

15. I was afraid I understood you too well

Unfortunately.

[geek tragedy]

16. Why? I think Kerry would have made a very good president, but as a

candidate he was lousy.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Did you know that Teresa Heinz-Kerry has done a lot of good

through the Heinz Family Philanthropies? Can we say that of any of the wealthy Republicans that may be running in 2008?

No one can accuse Teresa of being a Stepford wife! What was Laura Bush's greatest accomplishment, other than closing her eyes and having fantasies the two times she had sex with George? I'll tell you what it was: it was the time that Laura went to Europe and gave a speech in English to all the women in Iraq, who had no access to American TV, to tell them that they would be free and equal after George liberated their country.

New Iraq constitution: Women lose all gains they made under the Baathist. Women will be property of their husbands and will be subjected to religious law! Some liberation!

[Totally Committed]

34. Not to nit-pick, but it's Teresa HEINZ again now:

Teresa Heinz drops 'Kerry'
Compiled by Tribune-Review staff
Sunday, February 6, 2005

According to The Washington Times, Teresa Heinz, the erstwhile Teresa Heinz Kerry, has stopped using the last name of her husband, Massachusetts Sen. John Kerry, last year's Democrat presidential nominee.

Preceding its Women Who Make a Difference Awards dinner next month, the National Council for Research on Women is featuring "a conversation with Teresa Heinz," according to a release from the organization. The council failed to mention the final half of the Fox Chapel ketchup heiress' formerly elongated last name in several other references.

"I just checked and she no longer uses her (entire) last name; only during the (presidential) campaign did she use Kerry," campaign spokeswoman Tamara Rodriguez Reichberg said.

We suppose this means the Kerrys (er, make that Heinz and Kerry) will have to get their checks reprinted, but it's an expense they probably can afford.

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/columnists/whispers/s_300508.html

or

http://digbig.com/4edfb

And, I am a big fan of hers. She's a very generous woman.

[IndianaGreen]

37. Which goes to show you that no Democrat can please the MSM

If Teresa did not use Kerry's name, the MSM will start talking about Hillary and her baking cookies remark of 1992. If Teresa uses Kerry's name, the MSM will say that this was done for crass political purposes.

Let's stop wasting our time trying to please a press that still remains largely silent about Bush's lies about WMD in Iraq.

[Totally Committed]

38. I agree with you.

Hillary Rodham didn't change her name to "Clinton" until Bill ran for President and the other side made a big thing about it.

I am a big fan of Teresa's, no matter what her name is.
She's a fine person and a hreat lady.

[geek tragedy]

67. What is morally right and what is politically effective are two different

things.

I'm a Northeast liberal. My significant other is more Northeast and more liberal than I am.

However, I recognize that Northeast liberals aren't going to be effective candidates for the White House.

[Cha]

81. And do we think pickles gives a

flying fig whether she gave a bullshit speech or not?

[karynnj]

52. So he should not have married the woman he pretty obviously loves?

[AndreaCG]

2. I've said it before and will say it again

Kerry stole my campaign contributions SPECIFICALLY earmarked to fight questionable election returns. He rolled over in Ohio. He doesn't deserve my trust.

[Deja Q]

140. Bingo.

One reason of many, I'm sad to say. (or might that be two reasons? He did roll over about the election results... though by May he decided it was time to respond. A bit late, actually...)

[Carolab]

4. Neither. n/t

[Mass]

6. I think that on DU, this poll's result is known.

[IndianaGreen]

8. Kerry and Clark can both read books

at a higher level than My Pet Goat!

:)

[wli]

18. Kerry as VP, Clark as prez might make sense

Both have the military experience to bring in some of the right wing, too. Clark is probably slightly more charismatic (plus has the big heroic story and higher military rank achieved).

[Patchuli]

49. I think you have those reversed

as it is more important for the president to have the experience that Kerry has. Clark has no domestic issues experience, among other things.

[Clark2008]

51. No - it's the right way around

Clark would be the CinC (and, pssst... he has a masters in economics and taught it at West Point. He also ran NATO, having to go to Congress for funding and making more executive decisions, like a president, than any senator).
However, Kerry has been in the Senate and could easily be vice-president, ie. president of the Senate.

[Totally Committed]

21. I am no fan of one and a big fan of the other, and

even I will say that polls like this serve no real purpose but to incite unnecessary flame wars and foster bitterness. I am opposed to them.

I am asking that they stop. I know it will do no good, whatsoever, but it is my request nonetheless.

[harlinchi]

128. Yup. I support Clark but voted for Kerry (I'm from PA).

By the time our primary came around, there was no chance for Clark. Here's hoping...

Thanks, Totally Committed, for an adult point of view!

[MODemocrat]

141. I'm pulling for Clark this time around

It took me quite a while to warm up to Kerry, but when I did, it was easy to support him. This time, however, I would really like for Clark to be the nominee.

[xray s]

23. I vote Clark

But he has to dump the usual Dem handlers and political leeches and take his campaign direct to the people. Make it genuine.

We can't afford another candidate that says "they wish they had responded to X, Y and Z, but their advisors told them not to."

[phillysuse]

24. It's Clark over Kerry in so many ways

Patrician wealthy man from Massachusetts versus Middle Class
roots from Arkansas

Windsurfing versus swimming and rapelling down cliffs to
try to save a friend

Yale versus West Point

Lots of Senate votes on all sides of the issue versus No
Senate voting record

Fiddled in the Senate while Bosnians died/Saved 1.4 million
people from ethnic cleansing

Botox versus no Botox

Unable to respond to Swiftboaters/Able to respond to critics

Not so liberal but perceived as liberal/more liberal than Kerry but perceived as moderate

and finally

Teresa versus Gert.

There is no comparison - I'd take beautiful blond Gert with her Brooklyn accent anyday over Teresa.

[globalvillage]

30. OMG

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.
Sorry.

[Mass]

31. Thanks for the Talking points.

Let see if I follow you.

I love the last point. At least, we can see where you come from: I did not know xenophobia was a liberal virtue.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Let me guess, you are also concerned about the missing blonde in Aruba.

Take an honest look at your list and tell me if it isn't superficial. Many independents voted for Bush because he "looked sincere" or because they could see "the light of the Holy Spirit shining through his eyes." (I actually saw that posted in Free Republic back in 2001).

[ginnyinWI]

48. Clark already ran against Kerry

People chose Kerry over Clark.

Sorry, but from your talking points, I can tell you don't know much about Kerry.

[FrenchieCat]

64. Actually, Clark was not in Iowa...where Kerry picked up his big moe.....

The media kinda of took over after that....

http://www.markarkleiman.com/archives/wesley_clark_/2004/01/did_clark_insult_the_junior_officers.php

http://www.cjrdaily.org/archives/000099.asp

Friday, February 6 2004
THE STORY COUNT: If the amount of media devoted to candidates is any indication, then the Dem nomination is already a two man race between Edwards and Kerry.

Take a look at our Election 2004 page this morning. I couldn't find a single story about Wes Clark in any of the major papers,

Monday, February 9, 2004
Media to Voters: We're trying to eliminate General Clark tomorrow, OK? Please cooperate this time. .... 10:50 P.M.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2095238

[Patchuli]

50. The Botox comment is over the top

What the heck exactly does that have to do with anything, whether Kerry Botoxes or not?! Who cares? My sister does it and I still think highly of her as a person. How trivial! No wonder Dems fight...what silliness some think about!

[LittleClarkie]

63. Someone on our side will take Drudge's word on something

if that word is against someone they dislike.

How pathetic is that.

Drudge took a picture of Kerry when he was undergoing chemo and compared it to a more recent picture. Gee, he looked better. Well yeah, he's probably gained a few pounds from when he had cancer, and so didn't look like a wrinkle dog any more. But from that we're supposed to National Ecquirer ourselves over to believing Drudge's Botox rumor? I hope not.

This being the same guy who thought that Kerry was having an affair with a woman because he called her, and her friend commented that he must like her if he called her so fast after the request for a reply. That was the whole thing. At least Drudge had the balls to apologize, unlike the Washington Post.

[Patchuli]

75. That's very pathetic

and it's even more pathetic when a so-called progressive talks RW talking points because they dislike the target. It shows trivial and shallow thinking. I think it's a good thing when a man does take care of himself anyway. Is that a 'sign of weakness' or something in some peoples' minds?

[Cha]

83. Ri-Dic-Ulous!

Try swimming out of the shallow end.

[RedstDem]

114. If People Don't Realize That It's The Little Things That Count

Like The Things Your Pointing Out, They're Fools.
Our Elections Are Nothing But A Beauty Contest, So Your Right That Gert's Accent Beats Teresa's (In An Election) Flame Away People. Just Try To Remember Who's Doing The Voting.

[liberaliraqvet26]

27. Haven't we had enough of Kerry?

I am amazed that so many people out here in DU land actually want to see him run again. Am I the crazy one? He is a great senator from Massachusetts lets leave him there.

[IndianaGreen]

29. I think I've had enough of Bush and conservatives!

The challenge we face is to find a suitable candidate that we can live with, and that can actually win.

I hope the DNC changes the way primaries are run, and we get away from the front-loading and from the system in which Iowa and New Hampshire have a disproportionate influence on the nomination process.

[Mass]

33. When you started your post, I was going to say that

I hoped people could show their appreciation of Clark (a good man full of qualities) rather than thrashing Kerry. I can say I was too optimistic.

[IndianaGreen]

35. They are both high quality candidates

unfortunately there are a handful of posters that think that the best way to present their candidate is by tearing down the other. Did we learn anything from the 2004 primary season?

[Patchuli]

77. Yes we did but apparently we learned

how to act like repugs on the smear tactic! sheesh! I'm so tired of that.

[wanpete]

36. I'm not fond of either. We need fire! Both walk the line a little

too carefully. I don't think we can win any more being so polite, correct, and controlled. Things are getting scary and there's no room for anyone tiptoeing through the tulips anymore. It's time for a showdown. And I still don't think it serves Clark at all to be a faux news commentator. imho as always.

[IndianaGreen]

39. If any of you still want to vote on the Kerry vs Hillary poll

here is the link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1972943

Assuming no one beats me to it, I will run another one-on-one poll tomorrow between the winner of this poll and another likely candidate. It won't be Dean since he has said he is not running!

[LittleClarkie]

41. I think you could have run a dead rat against Hillary

and the dead rat would have won, on this board anyway.

[Skip Intro]

42. Kerry. Consistency among Democrats. Same agenda, same guy.

Kerry would allow us to say "we were right about things then and we're right aobut them now."

Kerry/Clark maybe?

:D

[globalvillage]

43. That's the ticket. n/t.

[MH1]

76. Damn straight.

Nice, succinct way to put it.

:thumbsup:

[Donna Zen]

45. Please no flame wars...please.

The Clark and Kerry supporters at DU share many of the same goals, and certainly share a certain "mind set." A thread like this should not undo all of the peace we've made.

Of course I chose Clark. It is my belief that no matter what happens during the next few years, this damnable war and National Security will still have a place in the election. It is difficult for any senator who voted for the IWR to fully exploit the advantage of the bushes' failure, no matter what their feelings today, because of the change in their position. Nix anyone who hasn't changed their position like Hillary or Bayh.

Clark is free to play this trump card. He has many other cards that fate has dealt him, and therefore us. His baggage, fwiw, is of little to no value to the republicans. What are they going do, fault him for winning a war in three months? Being right on the money about this one? Besides: "After a great enmity some enmity remains." ~Lao Tzu. It will take a master diplomat and strategist, someone trusted by the moderate Arab leaders, to get us out of this mess no matter where we are.

As for his liberalism, the MSM gatekeepers have already dubbed him a moderate. Those four stars give him the leeway to be as liberal as he wants to be. Oh sure, they'll try and fault him for defending Michael Moore's freedom of speech, but I just don't think they'll get too far. Especially, since Moore will have a new film out slamming Big Pharma, everybody's favorite target of scorn.

A Southern liberal general, with just the right story and smile. When my daughter's friends saw Clark for the first time on tv, they just gasped: OMG, he looks like a president.

It's Clark for the easiest win, straight on til dawn.

[IndianaGreen]

46. It doesn't matter who the Democrats nominate in 2008

The Republicans and their allies in the MSM will do their utmost to paint the nominee as a servant of Lucifer. Our job is to not repeat the bloodletting of the 2004 primaries. Let's have a competitive primary season, but let's also recognize that whoever wins the nomination will be preferable than four more years of this nightmare.

[Donna Zen]

47. True

But our ace of trumps is the bush foreign policy debacle. Don't go into the general election without it.

One other thing, a poster above said that they would not vote for Clark because he appears on fox. Well, traveling through the South, I met plenty of bush supporters who now trust Wes Clark because they've seen him on.....yep, fox. Un-fucking-believable, but there you have it.

[Dread Pirate KR Read]

55. I tack 4-Star (board), en I'll sail aside the Gen'ral!

Arrh, ...Parlez, you say? Agreed, ...for now. Aiye,...but grant me first shot 'cross the bow uv'a Roving scallywag that takes aim at Clark.

[imenja]

53. I believe in one shot per presidential candidate

who receives the Dem nomination. Kerry already had his and did a lousy job with it. Next.

[kerrygoddess]

54. These polls are a waste of energy!

And only create flamebait.

[Corey_Baker08]

57. DU Really makes me Hate Clark more and more Everyday

The Clark craze is getting old and will eventually sizzle out like the deaniacs and I will laugh when they do.

[madfloridian]

61. LOL we ain't gone away yet.

We ain't sizzled out at all. We just renamed ourselves to DFA. We're still here. Mean as ever.

That is so funny to hear you say we sizzled out.

[FrenchieCat]

62. Did a Clark supporter start this thread or something? Didn't think so!

And really...How can a website make you dislike an actual political figure? I mean, I know that you are smarter than that.

Clark Supporters are no more Clones then Kerry supporters are...
We come in different shapes and sizes; races and hues; convictions and beliefs, and certainly different approaches.

Oh...and I don't "Hate" John Kerry....but some of his supporters can be nerve wrecking too.

In reference to the Clark Craze "getting old".....maybe like with John Kerry supporters, it called admiration, loyalty and respect.

Ever thought of that? If not.....you should.

(See, I was gonna stay out of this stupid tread...Still, I won't be lumping all Kerry supporters together and saying that I hate Kerry because of them--and that I'll be laughing at them real soon. I consider that an infantile thing to say).

[Totally Committed]

65. I'm a Clark supporter, and I think this poll is stupid,

and divisive, and unnecessary. And I have said this upthread. This thread was started by someone out to have some fun at the Clarkies' and Kerryites' expense, hoping for a reaction just like yours, and a flamewar or two.

It was not started by a Clarkie (and probably not a Kerryite), so please keep that in mind.

[karynnj]

111. Excellent point

Add to that that there were people repeating every RW lie there is about both men - who at least from public comments respect each other. As you said these polls are stupid. The posts with them are even more counter-productive. I could support Clark if he were the nominee and part of the reason is having read informative posts that linked to information on him. No amount of insults spewed against all the other candidates would have achieved this. I am less likely to seriously read anything from someone who I associate with contentless negativity.


By the way, thanks for the nice comments about Teresa.

[CarolNYC]

66. Wow Corey

What a post. You better hope the Clarkies and Deaniacs don't sizzle out. This country needs them...as it needs both Clark and Dean....and I'm sorry you hate Clark but I wish you'd take the time to learn a little more about him before you decide you hate him because someone who doesn't even support Clark starts a poll on a website, especially when the General and his supporters, with the sizzled out Deaniacs, worked so hard to try to get your guy elected last fall...but then I wish a lot of things. :(

[Totally Committed]

69. No chance.

Deaniacs and Clarkies will never "sizzle out". Grassroots activism takes true dedication.

Both groups have awesome "leaders" who not only appreciate our involvement, but encourage it. Both groups have people who care deeply about the issues and about America, as do our "leaders". Both groups identify with the integrity and courage of both Dean and Clark, and mirror it back daily. Both groups have the strength of their convictions in their hearts every day. That never sizzles out.

Other candidates can align themselves with centrist groups, or special interests. And, they'll let you make phone calls or go door-to-door for them when they need it, but Howard and Wes see their supporters as true assests. They treat us with respect. They include us in every facet of what they do, because they trust and rely upon our committment.

That's what makes both these men, and their supporters great, and imo, here to stay.

[bowens43]

71. I'm with you.

Clark was overwhelmingly defeated by Democrats in the primaries. If he runs, he will be defeated again. Most Democrats do not want a career military man running the country, especially one who lavishly praised the bunch of thugs we have running our country now. Clark had nothing to offer in 2004 and he has less to offer now. Outside of the Clark supporters here at DU , I don't know a single person who would support him. In fact i don't think I know anyone who even remembers who he is.

[CarolNYC]

74. Hey bowens, I asked you this before...a couple of times....

but you ignored or didn't see it, so I'll post again:

From your posts, you seem woefully uninformed about Clark

Can I ask you to check out some of the resources in this thread before you pass judgment?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=235x6296

Or are you one of those who wishes to know as little as possible so you don't run into anything that conflicts with the opinion you've formed?? I hope not.

Thanks!

And what's this deal with these people who say they would never support or vote for Clark...oh, and yeah, they never heard of him...they just know they don't like him??

[Clark2008]

103. Don't live in a red state, do you?

:eyes:

[Cha]

86. We've got more SIZZLE than

ever.. so there goes your damn theory.

[Capn Sunshine]

119. What makes you think the Deaniacs sizzled out?

most of us are stil quite active in politics.
go to Democracy for America and find tonight's Meetup in your area.

We weren't a cult of personality, and your comment indicates you never "got " that aspect.

We're changing things, and want you to join us.

See you tonight?

[DanCa]

58. Wesley Clark

The man is the most awesome straight talking articulate person I have ever seen. That said I have nothing but the best wishes for Senator Kerry but he had his chance. It's time for the general to lead us in a ground war.

[wiley]

60. Agreed

Wes Clark.

[election_2004]

59. Clark over Kerry

Kerry has the same problem that Hillary Rodham Clinton does - - I think it would be impossible for him to flip a handful of the red states into the blue column.

[MoonRiver]

68. No offense, IG, but some people are gluttons for punishment.

You KNOW Clark always wins these DU polls. Kerry is a good Senator but I don't want him running again. Clark, on the other hand... :loveya:

[union_maid]

70. Clark

I have nothing but admiration and respect for John Kerry. I think he would have made one of the best presidents we've had in a long time. Not winning, if he didn't win, once doesn't mean he won't win next time. I'd have no trouble supporting him.

I just prefer Clark. When I'm out and I see an American flag on a house or a car, I know what that usually means (especially if it's big) and it means that things haven't changed. I know that the anti-Bush bumperstickers that my husband has plastered on our car's bumper spell out "unpatriotic" and "un-American" to a lot of people. They make my husband happy, but they're not convincing anyone of anything much. I'm tired of the Republicans owning the flag and I'm sick of them being able to frame anyone who opposes their policies as unpatriotic. I think that Clark's the one person best positioned to change that perception. I think he could be a uniter, not a divider, if he got the chance.

I also think he has a great grasp of our domestic as well as our foreign policy problems. It was Clark I heard talking about the problems of high tech workers and outsourcing when the other candidates were proposing solutions that applied only to manufacturing jobs, for one example.

And finally, we have a foreign policy mess that gets made worse every single day. Someone who is truly exceptional in that area will still be needed in 2008.

[cyn2]

72. No Senators, No Skull & Bones!

[Patchuli]

78. I doubt very much

that membership in a frat club from the 60s has any telling influence on a future president. Much too much is made of that.

[BamaLefty]

73. Although I'm A Kerry Fan

I'm an even bigger Clark fan. He was my pick last February, and he is in 2008 as well.

General Wesley Clark, a great American! :patriot:

[fujiyama]

79. I like Kerry

and I think he would have made a great president but I really have to say he had his chance. It's very difficult for candidates to get elected a second time. THis is the reason, as much as I like Gore, that I'm not sure he'd be the right candidate either. People point to Nixon coming back and winning his second shot. That may be true, but it's worth remembering what kind of state the Democratic party was in after the chaotic primaries where RFK was assasinated and then with the riots at the DNC in Chicago. Also, Nixon won that election by a pretty close margin and that election hinged on a few states.

I'd have to go with Clark.

[dogman]

82. I always liked Kerry and supported his candidacy when he won the primary.

However I knew his weaknesses and felt compelled to draft Clark in the hope of putting up a stronger candidate. Clark himself said he supported Kerry but decided to be drafted because Kerry was faltering. As we all know Kerry came out of Iowa and steamrolled to the nomination. I still think Clark was the better choice and would like to see him get an earlier start and see if people really want to see a good Dem get elected as President.

[kwvining]

84. Pick a loser once, shame on him

Pick him twice, shame on me. I thought Kerry ran the worst campaign in history. The presidency was essentially his for the taking, and he blew it, starting with that ridiculously stupid contrived convention, and ending with his total inability to meet the Swift Boat Fascists. Sorry, stick a fork in him.

[SW FL Dem]

85. Gotta go with Clark Even Though I worked my butt off for Kerry

Clark was the one who got me off my butt in 2003.

[Placebo]

87. President Hillary Rodham Clinton

Thank you very much.

:patriot: CLINTON '08 :patriot:

[PresidentObama]

88. No Offense

...But this poll means nothing. Not only because it's a online poll, and can't be legit and/or accurate. But because DU seems to be pro-Clark and anti-Kerry. Which isn't the direction of the country, nor is the direction of our party. I like General Clark, but I fail to see how he has any real chance in 2008. John Kerry and Hillary Clinton are power houses in 2008 according to the polls, Evan Bayh and Mark Warner are young fresh talents. Where does Wesley fit into this? Thats the problem he doesn't. I don't think Wesley Clark will have much of an impact in 2008. But before I get the Clarkies jumping on me like a pack of wolves. Keep in mind, thats just MY opinion. I'm sure in a lot of the Clarkies opinion, Kerry is a cooked noodle for 08'.

By the way, if it isn't obvious I voted for Senator Kerry ;)

[FrenchieCat]

90. Clark can do what Hackett is doing in Ohio right now......

all over the red states. That's what.

Kerry couldn't. That's what.

You can have your opinion....but it's not really based on "that much".

Wes fits in by the fact that he's got us...his grassroots...willing to do what it takes, and then some!

What's Warner's stance on Iraq? What his credentials other than a 1992 recipe without the charisma?
Why would people vote for Kerry again? I mean, please...won't happen.
Hillary is the Corporate media candidate.....and Democrats will revolt. The woman married herself up to the presidency. That won't sell.
Bayh (bye) would not rev up the base....needed to win a primary.

Clark's the national security defense/foreign policy southern washington outsider who doesn't kiss bush ass. That's where Clark fits in.

Any other questions?

[Sparkly]

95. I agree!

Tonight's election should send a loud and clear message to Democrats.

[Texas_Kat]

92. I must have missed it

Tell me again how Kerry gave some of that $14 Million he had left over from the 04 race to Hackett in OH-2.

Remind me how Kerry helped out this 'other' Democrat.

Please clue us all in on how he's fighting for every Democrat?

Then ask yourself one more time why Democratic acivitists aren't impressed.

[AX10]

89. Clark, Clark, Clark!

[PresidentObama]

91. Care to share why you feel that way?

...Not trying to be rude or anything, just hoping for you to put some light on why your for Clark? Or atleast over Kerry anyway...

[PassingFair]

93. Fat lot of good a poll will do.

We will have Hillary foisted upon us, much as we had Kerry shoved down our throats in the last election. The DLC has already anointed her...
UNLESS, Howard Dean succeeds in snatching the king making powers of Iowa and New Hampshire and lets the people decide in non-front loaded, non-caucus primaries.

[paulk]

94. I would pick Kerry over Clark in 2008 for the same reason

I did in 2004 - Clark's lack of political experience.

Clark was my first choice for VP in 2004.

[FrenchieCat]

96. Yeah....glad you like Clark as VP.....but

If you are talking about political "experience"...why did your politically experienced Kerry not pick Clark in 2004? Maybe it would have made a difference. What was that about?

Anyhow, Kerry listened to his advisors in '04...and in my opinion that does not a leader make.

[formernaderite]

97. I am just not a fan of Clark...

not sure if it's just his smarmy nature or military background. I'd like to see his actual votes in some area...oops I guess that's not possible since he's never run for any office before. Why doesn't he run for Senate or congress somewhere in 06....then I'll let you know what I think in 08.

[dogman]

98. What was Nader's voting record?

Is that why you are former? A great enlightenment struck you?

[FrenchieCat]

99. It's ok....

It's understood that not everyone prefers Clark. All we need is a majority.

In reference to smarmy......I will agree to disagree. Was it because he wanted to save some Black Rwandans...was that what you didn't like? Or maybe you didn't like him backing Affirmative Action with a brief? Or was it the fact that he was "retired" early because he locked horns with the pentagon wanting boots on the ground as opposed to high altitude bombing to limit casualties? Or was it when he rappelled down a cliff to attempt to save lives when he didn't have to? Or was it when he testified against going into Iraq in 2002? Or maybe it was him standing up for MM's right to speak? Or maybe when he got permanently kicked off the Lou Dobbs show and later booted from CNN for stating that this war wasn't necessary? Or maybe it's because he dare be honest about who he had voted for years ago? Oh...I know...it must have been when he proposed a tax program that was better than any other Democrat running?

Or is it that you just think that it's the military that start the wars....and not our elected civilian officials?

yes...and very good thinking Dogman.....let's all go look up Nader's voting record on issues. :sarcasm:

[Donna Zen]

100. Frenchie?

Have I told ya lately that I luv ya?

Amazing posts. Boom, boom, boom!

And what Paul Hackett and the online activists did tonight in the heart of the red just goes to prove our theory. Hackett took it to them. If this was even a slightly different less wingnut district, he would be in congress tomorrow.

We will win. And with WKC, we will take it to them.

[FrenchieCat]

101. Amen, Sista Z

We've got the recipe and the ingredience....

They will see....soon enough! :thumbsup:

PS....You've been pretty much on fire your own sweet self!

[DrFunkenstein]

102. Clark's Background Made Sense Against Bush, But Now?

In 2004, we were fighting against the guy who presided over 9/11 (imagine that's supposed to be a good thing). We needed to counter Bush's bellicosity with some serious military creds.

But by 2008, I can guarantee you that the public will have fatigued on the drawn out occupation of Iraq and will want to swerve to domestic issues. And I have to say that few have the grasp of policy that Kerry does.

As a long time Kerry man...policy only goes so far. Kerry has to cut the crap and spend the next few years developing a persona of newfound directness.

I believe that will happen because his entire campaign - one of a great man - was severely hampered by the Iraq resolution vote, from which he never truly recovered. Freed from nuances even I had trouble keeping track of (although I always believed in him), I think Kerry is going to be one hell of a candidate in 2008.

[Texas_Kat]

104. I'm supect it may be too late.

Don't for a minute think that 10% of the people in the photo in your sig line remain Kerry supporters.

[FrenchieCat]

105. Plu-eaze.....

You didn't support Clark in '04...you supported Kerry.

So now, you can go back and said that Clark made sense in '04...but not '08.

Geeze...if we keep listening to you, we'll be on to a streak!

[DrFunkenstein]

106. Plu-Eaze Read My Post Next Time

"Long time Kerry man." Yep, that's me. Clark was my second choice last time, but I have to admit that there's a part of me that wouldn't mind seeing a woman running the show (even a triangulating centrist one). So I'm not sure if he's still in the #2 spot at this point.

[Texas_Kat]

107. Keep your #2 spot for somebody else

I doubt Clark is interested in being anyone's second.

[DrFunkenstein]

109. Oops, I Didn't Mean As A VP

I meant as my #2 choice for the Big Cheese spot. For VP, I'd hope someone like Warner, but I'm really not thinking that far ahead.

[FrenchieCat]

108. I read your post....and don't see any difference....

Kerry was your man in 04 and he's your man in '08. That simple enough for even me to understand.

The rest of what you said doesn't really change anything.

[DrFunkenstein]

110. Just To Clarify A Confusion

"So now, you can go back and said that Clark made sense in '04...but not '08."

I took this to suggest that I was posing as a former Clark supporter, which is hardly the case (I distinctly remember being accused of similar shadiness by posing as a former Dean fan, which I was never).

I hope no one wastes brain space on this, but I long promoted Clark as my second choice, and even pushed for him over Edwards as VP.

I hope I misinterpreted your comment. If I did, I apologize.

[Texas_Kat]

113. I'm not sure why you have a 'second choice'

Don't you think your 'first choice' is a good one?

Frankly, that sort of sums it all up.

[DrFunkenstein]

123. Pretty Simple

If your candidate gets knocked out in an early round, who would you next prefer to get the nod?

For me now - and I speak as someone to the left of everyone in Washington - my choices are Kerry, then Clinton. If Clinton were not a woman, I'm not sure how that would change the calculus, but I imagine it would a great deal.

[shelley806]

112. "Clark does have an exemplary record of military service." So does

Kerry; even though it was trashed...

[Time for change]

115. I still have a lot of respect for Kerry

He's done a great deal for his country, he trounced * in all three debates, and he ran a good enough campaign that he would have beat * in any election where the voting machines weren't owned by the opposition party.

But he had his chance and he dropped out of the contest way too soon IMO. I will not vote for any candidate in the primaries who doesn't acknowledge the serious problem that we have with our election system and indicate that he or she will act accordingly.

So I would vote for Clark over Kerry, pending seeing what his position is on the above issue.

Barbara Boxer has my vote as it stands now, for her statement on January 6 -- without which meaningful election reform in this country would be even less likely than it is today.

[Donna Zen]

116. In Clark's words:

When our President has the audacity to visit the grave of Dr. King one day, then dishonor his memory the next by appointing an anti-civil rights, anti-voting rights, anti-justice, anti-American judge - then we have not overcome.

And when a political party can suppress the vote and steal a presidential election - when a man can sit in the White House when the only vote he's won took place in the U.S. Supreme Court - then my friends, we still have not overcome...

Today, 140 years after President Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation, 40 years after Congress passed the Voting Rights Act, one person, one vote is still not a reality in America.

We saw it in the election of 2000, and right here in South Carolina in 2002, when African Americans were turned away from the polls, purged from the rolls, and intimidated when they showed up to vote.

Today, all too often, it's one person one vote if you live in the right county. And if you vote at the right machine. And if your name is on the right list. And if your skin is the right color.

Well, last I checked, there was no "if" in the 15th Amendment. Last I checked, one person one vote wasn't just a slogan - it was the highest law of this land. And I'm not going to rest until every single American can cast their vote and make their voice heard.

Note: Clark supporters recently held a workshop and the machines were one of the sessions. Clark is well-aware of our feelings and our doings.

[Time for change]

132. That's great -- I was planning on voting for Clark in 2004, but

he got knocked out of the race before I had a chance.

I don't know all that much about him, but I've been impressed with him everytime I've heard him speak, and I believe that there would have been a whole lot more genocide in Kosovo had he not pushed so hard for us to stop it. And he didn't shun the support of Michael Moore.

His military background should be a plus in the general election, and maybe even his lack of political experience could be a plus.

[okcitykid]

117. I Say, "IMPEACH BUSH"

I'm not real happy with Kerry because I felt he gave up, but he's not a bad fellow - My first choice has been and is Clark. He's a very smart man.

Please excuse me for changing the subject - but I have something to say and I can't create my own thread until I have enough posts, stupid rule.

"I Say, “Impeach Bush”

I’m a U.S. citizen, tax payer with active service to my country under my belt, this is my government that works for me, and I demand justice and fairness. I’m not a lawyer, but just a man with enough common sense to know the difference between justice and injustice, fairness and unfairness. Should a man who has lied to Congress be president of the United States, if that lie is responsible for thousands of deaths? No, of course not. So, this man should be impeached, right. I have been ignored and already some laugh at me, but can they express logic, or do they have none?

Some believe that impeaching Bush is impossible and can’t or won’t happen, to them I quote, Jesus “Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.” For those who may not believe in Jesus, I feel sorry for you.

I say, “Impeach Bush,” because it is the just and fair thing in the name of all those who have died for a lie and I believe it will happen."

[LandOLincoln]

118. You had me right up until the part where

you decided to pity me because I'm not Christian.

OTOH, at least you seem to be closer to being a true Christian than the nutballs on the far right will ever manage...

[iconoclastNYC]

120. Isn't Clark an unoffical DLC type?

Wasn't he the unofficial Clinton candidate in the 2004 primaries? CLINTON = DLC.

[Donna Zen]

126. Clinton did not ask Clark to run.

Jimmy Carter asked Clark to run. Charlie Rangel asked Clark to run. 40,000 citizens asked Clark to run.

Clark believes in knowing where you stand, and saying what you mean. That is the direct opposite of type of person from the DLC.

Talking left and voting right doesn't even cross his mind.

[bunny planet]

121. Kerry/Clark

Flame away.

[BlueIris]

125. No flames here. That was the ticket I wanted to see.

Sort of (I liked John Edwards a lot-- A LOT, anyone who might be reading this and thinking about flaming me). In fact, because of Clark's opinions about Selective Service, and the way I feel Clark would react in the event of another "terrorist" attack, I really don't want Clark anywhere near the presidency for any reason other than electability. He translates to "good on security" for so many average Americans, conservative swing voters and Republicans sick of the neo-cons.

But because of a lot of factors, including the rumored total personality conflict between Kerry and Clark--which I read was more pronounced than with any other running mate JK considered--I think this combination is about as unlikely as the Dems running Al Gore again (as arguably unfortunate as both those scenarios are; President Gore, you know I love you).

[bunny planet]

130. Too bad Kerry and Clark can't iron out their differences. I think this is

a very strong ticket, and one the Repukes will be really uncomfortable with, Chickenhawks that they all are.

[CarolNYC]

131. Where do you hear that they have these differences?

My impression was that they got on quite well....

[bunny planet]

133. from the poster I was responding to. I wasn't aware of it myself.

[Leilani]

134. Could you please name your source?

I have never heard that Kerry & Clark did not get along.

As a matter of fact, Clark served as a spokesperson for Kerry more than any other candidate. He campaigned all over the country for him & with him. He also made appearances with Edwards.

Please explain.

[CarolNYC]

135. I had never heard that either...

so I join you in asking Blue Iris to please explain.

In fact, I'd always gotten the opposite impression. I thought they got along very well. Wes always has very warm words to say about Kerry (whom he refers to as John) and John and Teresa both seem to always have wonderful things to say about Wes. They all seem sincere when they say them...

Also, at the event that Wes spoke at at Chris Heinz' apartment a few months back, Chris and Wes seemed to get along great and Chris seemed to have a deep respect for Gen Clark. Clark also seemed to have a deep respect for Kerry when he spoke about him and how much he enjoyed being on the campaign trail with him.

So, I don't get this "total personality conflict" thing at all.

[BlueIris]

136. To clarify: it's literally "just" something I read.

My "source," isn't someone who has any special degree of credibility, I guess, I can't even find her comments about this on a Google search anymore. Take my post with a gigantoid bag of salt if you must. Her statements seemed persuasive to me at the time, is all I can tell you. Didn't mean to cause a ruckus.

However, if I might add my own impression--not colored by anyone's perceptions but my own: Kerry/Clark isn't very likely. Because of some rather large differences I see in their stated political ideologies.

[kenny blankenship]

122. If it's Kerry vs. Clark then the terrorists have won.

think about it--you'll see what I'm saying is true.

[rhett o rick]

124. Will a Kerry supporter plez respond. Why did Kerry vote for the Iraq War?

How can he be considered a candidate when he hasn't explained why he supported Bush in the biggest mistake this Country has made in the last 50 years. He supported George W. Bush - unconscionable.

[1932]

127. He has said that he voted for the IWR for two reasons:

(1) A NO vote would have emboldened Hussein. It would have reduced the likelihood of compliance.

(2) The intelligence was convincing. Except for the Niger uranium forgery, much of the intelligence, on its face, seemed legitimate.

[bunny planet]

129. Kerry voted for giving the President the authority to declare war if

Saddam Hussein did not comply with UN resolution 1441. He also voted yes to grant that authority based on the same faulty, flawed and outright deceptive 'intelligence' that we the people were sold on weapons of mass destruction. In fact, that is a Republican talking point, that the Congress had the same intelligence (or in this case flawed intelligence) as the President and his top advisors, simply not true.

JK also voted against the 87 billion when Bush wanted to borrow the money for the war, not raise the money through an increase in taxes (on the rich) and pay for it as it went along with those revenues. JK also fully expected Jr. to go back to the UN for the second resolution to go to war as the administration had promised they would do. BTW, Bush threatened to veto the 87 billion if it was raised from a tax increase instead of borrowing the money. So * flip-flopped. He only wanted the war to be fought without a sacrifice from his base, the richest 1% of America. These two votes for the initial 87 billion for the war, is what Kerry was referring to when he unfortunately was unclear in explaining, I voted against it before I voted for it, or vice versa (can't remember)

The other unfortunate remark that Kerry made that was completely jumped on by the media was that he would have voted for it again to remove Saddam Hussein. He still would've wanted the war to be prosecuted with enough troops, enough supplies and protection for those troops, and a clear, and sane, reality base exit strategy. He also wouldn't be building 14 bases in Iraq and possibly committing our children to being in danger there for another 20 years.

My reasons for saying Kerry/Clark would be a good ticket in '08 is that they both are what Jr. fears the most, veterans. That is why they went after JK with the tenacity that they did, because they feared his status as a veteran, they had to neutralize it. I wish Kerry had not made his service a centerpiece of the Democratic Convention however, it played right into the Republican's hands, because they meant to smear his service all along, and of course the Republican convention was a hatefest. We should have used the Dem Convention to point out all the lies, all the policy mistakes, all the ineptitude, and all the out and out corruption this administration was responsible for, we threw away that chance. Next time, I doubt we will be as foolish.

I was away when the Swiftboat vets were going full swing, I wish Kerry had come out strongly against them and sued them for the libelous little shits they were. Hell, I wish he'd do it now. I don't think they'll be able to do it again if Kerry runs in '08 and with Clark as his running mate they will have two veterans to take down. I think this is the ticket that scares them the most, I think it's the one to run. Keep in mind also, that every single thing Kerry so clearly pointed out in the debates about Bush, has come true.

[PresidentObama]

137. Kerry/Clark would be a strong ticket.

And vice versa. I like General Clark. He isn't my first choice in 2008. John Kerry is. But I respect him, and would support him if he got the nomination. If not, and someone else does, he'd make a good VP choice. As fair as I know, Kerry and Clark get along just fine. Clark respects Kerry, Kerry respect Clark. Both appreciate each others service to the country. And Clark was one of Kerry's biggest supporters and campaigners.

[Deja Q]

139. N-E-I-T-H-E-R. Particularly Kerry.

I like neither of them.

I dunno about Clark, but Kerry had clearly shown us how he'd do things and, yeah, he was a flip-flopper. Sorry. Hell, all too often he didn't even bother to counter *'s statements in the debates; many of which would be all too easy to do. That was a mistake, assuming it was a mistake. I still find it odd how quickly Kerry got up to the #1 position in the first place...

:hide:

[LittleClarkie]

142. Thread of the Living Dead

Did ya have to resurrect it, dude?

But thanks to the 76. Good to know there are that many who'd pick Kerry over Clark here in Clarkland.

[Moderator]

143. locking

been there, done that.