Question for DUers who were 60s-70s activists....

[democrank]

A recently unearthed poetry journal helped to reinforce my opinion that activism in the 60s and 70s had an element of resolve that isn`t apparent today. Without attaching too much idealism to that era, I think people were a lot more willing to take a collective stand back then. The issues were huge and so were the crowds.

Protesters back then had the fortitude to insist on being heard and they weren`t willing to bow to political or cultural pressures to simply go away. As I remember it, there was a solid sense of unity around common goals and individual needs were sacrificed for the common good. Nobody ordered that it be that way, it just was.

What sparked this memory search were recent posts here debating the DLC`s influence on our party. Back in the 60s, the DLC would have had no influence whatsoever. Nothing would have stopped activists and their goals: stopping the war, fighting for civil rights, women`s rights, labor rights and speaking up for the powerless.

During my most recent anti-war march, I was heartened to see so many older protesters (like Vietnam Veterans for Peace) that are as determined today as they were many decades ago. They weren`t worried about what their neighbors thought. They didn`t wish they were out shopping instead. They were there to take a stand and proud to do so. I`m hoping that more and more citizens will eventually follow this example and send a unified message to Washington.

[bunkerbuster1]

1. To state the obvious--there was a lot more on the line, personally.

If you weren't around at the time, you cannot imagine what it was like to have every able-bodied male of draft age wondering what they would do if their number came up.

I wasn't an "activist" in the 60s-70s--I was still under draft age when the US chopper left Vietnam in '75--but my older siblings felt a very real pressure to do something to change the status quo.

That's the source of the resolve. Backs were against the wall--they had no choice but to fight.

Nowadays, you have the choice to ignore the issues of the day if you wish.

[tavalon]

10. Which is why

despite hating this, I think a draft is necessary. Not to get able bodied men/women for the chimps wargames but to put the collective American backs up against the wall so that we can take our country back.

[election_2004]

14. ...and overcrowd the prisons....and destroy people's lives...

No thank you. I've already had enough of that with this administration...

[dajoki]

25. that might do it...

i mean i'm against the draft, i had a draft card during viet nam and it was no fun on lottery day, but if that's what it takes to motivate people maybe the threat of it would do it. we need a movement like "alices restaurant" by arlo guthrie. if you never heard it, get it, very important protest song from 60's.

[MichiganVote]

76. Agreed. The draft made a huge difference

[annabanana]

2. We were "under the gun". . . literally

The very real possibility that you could get drafted and sent to 'nam was a great motivator. Also it was largely us kids (without mortgages, vested interests in our jobs, kids to raise, etc -yet) with not much to lose.

[Wizard777]

67. If you didn't get killed or injured in Nam.

Then there was always the possiblilty of getting killed or injured by Police or The National Guard trying to have a voice in our government by protesting Nam. When you have had an american soldier point his weapon at you, his fellow american, that feeling goes so far beyond insecurity. It defies discription to this very day. When the government does not enact the will of the American people as demanded by the Constitution. They will have to attack and fight the American people. In some places that actually happened. They bombed a house in Philly because there were Americans in there plotting attacks against the American government that was attacking Americans. What a viscious cycle that was.

Now we have Iraq. The Vietnam of this day. I support our troops over there. Just like I did durring vietnam. I want to see them come home before they are killed or crippled. This not of there doing and they should bare no blame. Then there are the people that call me "Unamerican" and ask me why I hate the troops. These sons of a Bush have never been on either side an American military weapon. When you have had a national guardsman point his gun at you here in America. THEN you come talk to me about Unamerican. But not until then you chicken shit Bastards! Some of us American are willing to do more flap our chicken shit lips to keep a wrongful war going. Some of us true patriots are willing to die for peace. So stick that up Bush's chicken hawk ass and suck on it!

Sorry, I guess I'm not as over it as I thought I was.

[CTyankee]

3. I was part of that because I had a baby son

at the time and feared he would in time be drafted and be sent to some horrible war. Looking back, I think a lot of anti-war activism was fueled by the existence of the draft combined with a growing comprehension about the legacy of colonialism. The State Dept. had rid itself of most of the experts on Indochina during the McCarthy witch hunts;the only people with extensive knowledge of the area's history who could speak out were academics (hence "teach-ins" on campus). When the draft was ended, the air went out of the anti-war movement, IMHO, but of course not for everyone. However, the demonstrations certainly got smaller.

[papau]

4. If one has a lot to lose, it is harder. Back then we had no wealth and

did not care if we ever got any - we were early in our careers, some had not even started.

Now the measure of a person is the corporate one with a much stronger feeling that you can lose all if "the corporations" decide to screw you - union's have little power -

and the feeling of left wing duty does not seem so strong - indeed the feeling of the "crowd" is more like 63 than the late 60's/early 70's.

Your point is well taken. I agree.

:-)

[HeeBGBz]

66. Everyone was a lot less materialistic back then

People are afraid they will lose their stuff (job, home, etc)

[niallmac]

5. I think that is why the powers that be want to avoid a military draft.

If we could not sub contract the Iraqi murder machine, if we all had to participate then it might wipe the serotonin smile off the faces of those who go about their business
watching CNN pseudo headlines. Sub contracting a crime against humanity is one of the more odious aspects to this war in my opinion. I've always wondered if the draft were in effect if the music would improve. If we're going straight to hell can't we at least have good music?

[ClintonTyree]

6. We had a different base back then........

we were supported on all sides. Musicians, Poets, Philosophers, Politicians, Journalists.......you name it. We all had a common goal. We were able to get our message across on so many fronts it was impossible to ignore. The massive demonstrations then were unheard of. There were no "first amendment zones", the entire country was our canvas upon which we painted a picture of corruption and government stupidity.
Today, everything is too fragmented. We have a Press that amounts to nothing more than stenographers for government talking points, fragmented youth that often just don't care or are pulled in so many directions there is no cohesiveness. We're now a consumer society who's ultimate goal is to accumulate as many "things" as are necessary to "make them happy", a losing proposition from the start. Back then it was fashionable to give up worldly possessions.....fashionable for a while. Then we returned to the practicality of consumerism, we had children, we needed those things Madison Avenue was shoving down out throats. We grew up, damn it all!
Our society is so fragmented that it's impossible to get two fragments to agree on anything, let alone an entire generation.
I guess you had to be there. Those were heady times but certainly far from perfect. Even THAT fragmented over time and consumed itself. Too many people pulling in too many directions, the same as today. Things that are too good to be true, usually are.
But for a while, for a nanosecond in the space, time continuum, we were all on the same page, all fighting for a common goal. It's a shame that couldn't happen again.

[Adelante]

18. I say you're right, it was different

We were looking to stop a war, but not only to stop a war. We wanted the whole society to change, the entire national culture. That's why the artists and thinkers were so important in the late 60s and early 70s, they were the ones to conceptualize a new cultural reality the country could wrap its head around. But the greatest thing back then that seems lacking today is that EVERYONE was an artist. It wasn't a profession, but something you could just pick up and do with your life in order to effect change. You could walk down the street and turn a corner straight into some kind of street action. It depended on where you lived, maybe, to what extent, and the urban centers were non-stop art and politics (okay, and sex). Even the small towns, though, had their cadres organizing sit-ins, traveling to protests, holding anti-war poetry readings, running small presses. All over the country, people had their ears to the underground and the artists and thinkers were the troubadours.

There are a few groups, Billionaires for Bush ("Leave No Billionaire Behind") reminds me of the kind of creative action that was everyday life back then.

http://billionairesforbush.com/

I know some DUers belong.

[KoKo]

23. The creativity of the time was just incredible. It's lacking today except

for Freeway Blogger, Code Pink's and a few other group's efforts. People just are afraid of standing out, today. The lack of creativity is so depressing.

I hope that will change.

[omega minimo]

60. This important thread is being dredged up out of the chute

because it's about something important-- how did we get from here to there and :wtf: (:evilgrin:) is wrong with people?! I would like to ask ClintonTyree to let me piggyback cuz he made important points, while I address the thread in general and try to connect some dots.

We have a nation in simultaneous crisis and catatonia. There seems to be a gap in discussions like this on DU, which is the space beween here and there. It seems like we just sort of GOT HERE and sometimes the importance of how that happened is ignored.

CT hits on all the points:
"We all had a common goal.
We were able to get our message across on so many fronts it was impossible to ignore.
Today, everything is too fragmented.
We have a Press that amounts to nothing more than stenographers for government talking points,
fragmented youth that often just don't care or are pulled in so many directions there is no cohesiveness.
We're now a consumer society who's ultimate goal is to accumulate as many "things" as are necessary to "make them happy", a losing proposition from the start."

What's missing from these discussions is the fact that THIS WAS DONE DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY AND SYSTEMATICALLY AND DID NOT JUST DRIFT AWAY. AND WHY?

"But for a while, for a nanosecond in the space, time continuum, we were all on the same page, all fighting for a common goal. It's a shame that couldn't happen again."

POWER. THE POWER OF DEMOCRACY IN ACTION.

Enter Ronnie Raygun. Enter the corporate buyout of all media. Enter the Culture War. Enter the "Greed is Good" decade.

union_maid hit it: "It's hard to get everyone to show up for the same party when we're living on different planets. It's hard to get a whole generation to rebel when they can just change the channel instead."

Some great insights here from:
Sparkman #22, mdmprsn #46, Chemical Bill #58.

The reason that how and why (and who made) it happened is important to understand if we have any hope of breaking through the three decades thick crust of denial and cognitive dissonance, to reach the molten center that Americans used to understand as a sense of collective, connected interdependence as a nation.

The. United. States. Of. America.
United we stand. Fragmented we fall.

:patriot:

[omega minimo]

61. ...for the benefit of Mr. Kite

Rest in peace, John

B-)

[Q]

7. The issues are still 'huge'...

...perhaps even moreso than in the 60s and 70s. And the crowds are still very large.

The difference is that back then the 'free press' still thought they had an obligation to The people and hadn't yet become 'corporate partners' with the Republicans.

Democrats were still mostly free of corporate whoredom and Big Business hadn't yet 'set up shop' WITHIN THE PARTY. But then came the DLC.

The 'new' Democrats very purpose was to divide and conquer the party from within...weakening the influence on the party by 'special interests' like Blacks and unions. The idea was to take the last remnants of 'social welfare' and convert it to corporate welfare.

There are still MILLIONS of Americans ready and willing to march. But they have no real leadership and that's not a coincidence. Part of the corporate media and DLC's job is to make sure no populist personality or candidate gets any kind of real power to lead the people in a different direction.

[ChiciB1]

8. Count Me In...

Seeing what is going on today has me totally flummoxed! I plan to Protest in D.C. in September, but I have to admit that I'm sort of leary about whether it will do any good.

I do think we NEED to get on the band-wagon and make lots of noise. America is going down the tubes, in a BIG, BIG way.... AND I'm VERY VERY SCARED!

I can't even put into words how much I worry all the time about what is happening. I have never seen anything like what is going on now. The hate, venom, nastiness, and outright vindictiveness is tearing this country apart. We don't really need to worry about TERROR from other countries, it's right here on our doorstep. And it's being fomented everywhere!

[fasttense]

9. It wasn't just the fear of the draft it was the number of deaths

Everyone I knew had lost someone to the Vietnam war. I'm sure the upper crust didn't care, they were rarely fighting in the war. But we poor had lost so many god men that it was destroying entire families.

[Totally Committed]

11. Everyday I wonder where this spirit went.

I agree with you that it is there today, only in small glimmers and timy ways. Somewhere along the way it was lost, or, more likely, was stomped out.

I still have friends from back in those days, and we protested and sat-in and took buses to places where we thought our voices should be heard (Chicago for the convention, Alabama and Mississippi for the civil rights marches. We went together, got arrested and gassed together, got fire-hosed -- it didn't matter. We didn't care what anyone thought of us, there or back home.) Most of those same friends today wouldn't walk across the street for a protest. Recently, when they were at my house for dinner, and we got talking, I asked why. To a person they expressed absolute and utter hopelessness and cynicism that anything they did or could do would change anything even an iota. I was shocked to find out that about half of them didn't even vote in the last election.

Maybe it's time, or maybe it is that there really IS nothing we can effect anymore (if I didn't see us end the Vietnam war early, I would probably believe all protests were ineffectual and stupid now, too, but I was there and I saw it!) Maybe it is that politics has gotten so dirty and so stacked against our interests that there is just hope for anything we do to ever matter again. I don't know. I only know that most of the friends I had "back in the day" are not in a place to put themselves on the line again, sadly. They have been ground into the dirt by this political system and the futility of what has become the Democratic Party.

It's up to the younger ones now, I guess. They haven't been kicked in the teeth quite so many times yet, or seen quite so many of their heroes (do they still have heroes?) killed, or taken down by their own stupidity and greed. Maybe they can make a difference, but maybe not.

[democrank]

13. I`m wondering....

There seems to be a difference between the collective commitment to a cause back then and now. Was it the draft? The media? Some societal nuance I don`t understand? Rampant idealism? A majority of the people who took to the streets in the 60s are probably still alive today. Do these same people approve of the horrific mess in Iraq? Torture?

There has been some recent dialogue about "framing" issues, like we`re waiting around until someone dictates words that capture how we feel or what we believe. Again, without sounding idealistic, back in the 60s, nobody had to "frame" anything for us. We instinctively knew what we were willing to stand up for and the message was clear to our opponents.

[Totally Committed]

16. We had "Leaders" we would march into hell for. There are few of them today

Back then Republicans were the "Loyal Opposition". They were not the monsters they are today, they were good, decent people who loved America and cared about the people as much as the Democrats, but just believed in smaller government, less taxes, and a smaller deficit. Truly.

There were "dirty tricks", yes, but they were roundly criticized by both sides. There was no "framing", because everything was up front. Good was still good and bad was still bad. Poitics had not become a chess game yet.

Now, the Republicans want us not only beaten, but annihilated. Our own Dems don't seem willing or able to challenge them on that. Why stand up if your own Party has a leadership that is unable and to fight alongside us? And, while I'm at it, where's the freaking outrage from our "leadership"? When the hell were we abandoned for large corporations?

Back then, we had leaders who (we felt, anyway) had our back. Granted, they were all assassinated for their "leadership", but it was easy to respect them, because they respected us. It was easy to fight for them because they fought for things that were RIGHT. Anyone who remembers Bobby Kennedy on the back of a flat-bed truck after MLK was shot, begging for calm knows what I'm talking about. Anyone who remembers the pride we had when we saw JFK in Europe, or standing up to Russia during the Cuban Missle Crisis knows what I'm talking about. Anyone who remembers any speech MLK ever gave on the subject of human dignity for all knows what I'm talking about. We woul dhave marched into the bowels of hell for leaders like them.

Think about it, where are today's "leaders"? Making deals with those who seek our annihilation. Cowering in corners hoping the big, bad Neo-Cons won't decide to "target" them when they run for re-election (if they act enough like them, maybe, just maybe they can win the election.) Voting with the corporations, hoping for corporate money to save them from the big bad Neo-con smear machine when they run the next time. Who the hell could get inspired by that shit???

There are few JFKs, RFKs, or MLKs today. Few leaders who truly inspire. Few leaders who do the right thing, and not the "expedient" thing.

That's the problem as I see it.

[xkenx]

21. NOT SINCE BOBBY KENNEDY

have I been so inspired by a public figure as I have been inspired by Wesley Clark. This is the one person with the brains, fortitude, and compassion to help take our country back. This is the one person who can inspire others to do the right thing and help take our country back.

[Totally Committed]

24. I hear ya!

I support Wes for that reason, too.

He's not "perfect", but he's ideal. He's a "leader". I would follow him anywhere.

[dajoki]

26. i still believe...

if RFK was not taken from us the world would be different to this day. one of the greatest liberals of all time.

[Totally Committed]

31. Remember his speech from the back of that flatbed the night

MLK was shot, and everyone was terrified all hell was going to break loose? They told him it was dangerous. They told him it could hurt him, politically. But, he didn't listen. He stood up there and talked until the crowd listened. And, once they listened, they knew they were in the presense of greatness. Everyone did. Bobby was amazing.

He did what was right, and spoke straight from the heart. He truly WAS one of the great Liberals of all time. I so agree with you.

[dajoki]

35. i remember ...

like it was yesterday. he had a way of getting to your soul.

[annabanana]

57. damn

:cry: (you got me)

[kwolf68]

36. Ill 2nd that

It seems that whenever someone very special (Lincoln, Kennedy, King) comes along and fights for those without voice or power they get a bullet in the head.

I believe a world full of violence, revenge, death, vengeance, hatred, and destruction is selecting FOR Right-Wingers. In other words, only a nation truly devoted to peace, love, compassion, and togetherness can accept Liberals and Progressives...I guess that's why we are an engandered species...the environment is simply selecting against us.

[dajoki]

51. boy, that is the truth n/t

[mntleo2]

74. Yeah I Think That Is Why Some

got so tired and are feeling so powerless today. Geez, four great figures were assasinated within about 7 years and lots of people got hosed, beaten, and jailed. We were in a phase of culture shock and loss I think. It was not an easy time. Then there were the "wannabe greats" like Abby Hoffman who became a wall street whore who sold out to money and a disgusting disappointment. He represented to me so many people I saw who readily threw away their beads and ran after the dollar. They were only there because it was "in" not because they really believed in anything substantial like justice for all and equality. There are still some flower children among us who stuck to our beliefs, tho in the '80s and '90's we were treated with disdain. I actually have a great deal of hope for the youth of today. They are intelligent and they care, it is just not their time yet. We 60's protesters also had the generation before our parents (socialists, Wobblys and the like) to mentor us and now I think it is time to mentor this generation. The demons we have to face today are far worse I believe as well. They are nasty. In order to arm those young people with wisdom and strength, we need to share what we learned: Even though we believed we could change everything, we had to accept that no generation will change the whole world, only parts of it. We need to tell them that the pendulum always swings in social change and their time will come as it always has every 2nd or 3rd generation. It WILL come!

Cat In Seattle

[ProudDad]

95. Bobby was the poster boy for "redemption"

He was a REAL rich-boy asshole when he was Attorney General. After his brother was murdered though, he started looking at what was really going down.

The world would be a MUCH better place had he not been shot. No Nixon. Viet-Nam ended by '70. NO RONNY FUCKIN' REAGAN. The Great Society and New Deal possibly fully funded instead of starved.

But they killed him and it still fuckin' hurts.

That was one of the pivotal moments in history -- right up there with Hitler coming to power and the fuckin shrub being selected...

[ngGale]

80. Correct, we had true leader's who ....

not only inspired, but also knew it could possibly cost them their lives. None of our present corporate hoe's are going to put themselves in danger. Or, even in a position to lose power, in order to gain it.
Truly a sad lot.

[serryjw]

92. We also had a FREE Press that

told us the truth about what was happening. We saw body bags come home every night on the 6PM news. The idiot pResident tells Americans to go shopping. Out of site, out of mind. The country was prosperous. Middle age people didn't get outsourced,struggling to survive with 3 part time jobs.
When I recruit for our focus groups I talk to a great cross section of Denver. You would beleive how many 55 year old 'consultants' now exist because they can't find a well paying full time job. When you are struggling to educate your kids, prevent your parents from eating cat food, figure out HOW you are EVER going to retire it's difficult to find the time to get involve.

[KoKo]

28. There WAS rampant idealism, then. And, the first casualty of deep

idealism is deep cynicism. (at least some studies I've read have said that)

The 60's and 70's people you see posting on DU are here because we didn't lose our idealism. It still burns there. We went out and marched against Iraq Invasion and were accompanied by so many 20 and 30 somethings it was great to see.

Some of us feel we need to stop this maddness because it will be our legacy. That we tried to work for a better world.

I fight back the cynicism...even though I post some cynical views of our Democratic party here...I believe something new beyond the Dem and Repug parties HAS to emerge. I don't want to miss out on whatever it is. It's clear to me now that neither "established party" is able to do anything about what we are living through with the Bush Crime Family and Corporate Control. There's a tiredness to the Dem party as it's now structured and the ideology of the Repugs is just going to burn itself out at some point as the results of what they've done come home to roost.


I don't have hero's. Learned that from past experience. But, there are people I admire who have stood up against what's going on. I think it's us who will have to lead and be our own heros. :shrug:

[AlwaysDemocrat]

12. Lack of MSM coverage is one difference

I remember seeing nightly coverage of civil rights and war protests. Today it seems that we know protests take place because they are covered on the net and, if we're lucky on C-SPAN, but they never see the light of day on news broadcasts.

[union_maid]

15. It was all DLC, all the time for a long time

We did not seek relief through the electoral process because it was not to be found there. It wasn't about one political party or administration like it is now, it was about the whole of the establishment - government, media, the military-industrial complex.

There were lots of divisions and splits in the various factions that made up what was known as "the movement". In the end, why did everyone show up? Certainly it was mainly because in the two major causes that drove the movement as it developed over a period of years, civil rights and the war, everyone involved had something huge on the line. That's a big motivator.

There was also the fact that we were a more cohesive culture. We grew up on the same TV shows. We all got the same news. We all sat transfixed in front of the same images for days after JFK was killed. We all watched the first astronauts orbit the earth. We all listened to the same top forty songs. We all heard the same body counts on the evening news. When we started to question the culture, we all questioned the same premises. When we rejected the establishment media, we all turned to the same alternative sources. While that lasted it was so powerful that it changed the culture. Fashion followed the kids, not vice versa. The music business had to sign the artists that the kids were listening to instead of being able to promote their own choices.

Times were so different. With all the choices we have today in terms of culture, everyone lives in his or her own little world. Gone are the days when everyone watched the evening news, or at least the half hour between primetime and Johnny Carson or the ABC competition of the day. It's been decades since most households got Life, Look or the Saturday Evening Post or all three. Now you have magazines that address the most specific of interests. One person's musical idol is a name that the next person has never heard of. It's hard to get everyone to show up for the same party when we're living on different planets. It's hard to get a whole generation to rebel when they can just change the channel instead.

[theboss]

17. You do realize that the activists were fighting Democrats back then, right

The DLC-types were in charge in the 60s. Daley - a conservative Democract - turned his police lose on the outside agitators in Chicago. LBJ - a conservative Democrat - escalated the Vietnam war. Robert Byrd - a conservative Democrat - blamed Martin Luther King, Jr. for causing violence. George Wallace - a conservative Democrat - fought de-segregation in Alabama. Mississippi had nothing but Democratic governors all through the 60s.

[Dhalgren]

47. You are absolutely right! Back then someone would ask,

"Who are you against, the Democrats or the Republicans?" And we'd answer, "Who you got?" The dividing line was right and wrong. We would ask ourselves, "Is this right?" If the answer was "no", we knew what to do - oppose it. When the cops started beating and arresting people we ran toward them, not away from them; we knew at some basic level that standing together, even falling together, was better than being caught alone. Were there thugs and violent people on our side back then? You bet there were, and we were glad of it. It seems more difficult, now, for people to recognize that we are in a conflict. Back then we knew we were in a war against the establishment - the status quo - and we knew they would kill us if they could. But we fought them anyway. We lost. But we fought them anyway. That's the place you have to get to - you may lose, but you have to fight, anyway...

[librechik]

65. Face it--a Rightwing coup murdered our leaders

and the same Nazis have bullied their way back into power today.

Why do we have no spirit? Because the police state won in the US, not with guns, but with election fraud, harsh drug laws, prison and the economy. Not many of us who are left want to provoke a gulag, so we conform.

Not me, of course. They'll never get me down. See you in the gulag! Hey, I hear the scum & beetle soup is great there...

[Catchawave]

19. No clear leaders to whip us into a patriotic frenzy today.....

:shrug:

[kentuck]

20. The young protestors of the 60's are now the older protestors of 2000's..

The majority of protestors in the 60's were young. I don't think that is the case today. Many young people were born before or just after the Reagan era. Government was bad. Get a good business job. Don't pay taxes. Make money. This is more ingrained in the youth of today than in those of the 60's, through no fault of their own, I think. Perhaps someone else can better explain it?

[XemaSab]

30. I think a lot of the apathy among young people

comes from the fact that this country has been in an ever-deepening rut our whole lives, and the protesters of the 60's didn't really seem to change anything.

The 60's protesters made a lot of noise, and then they got corporate jobs, sold out to the man, and now they're the same people pouting and moaning about violent video games.

[kentuck]

33. Many sold out.....many did not....

But I don't think young people should use that as an excuse to do nothing. It just seems like the young are selling out to the man a lot quicker nowadays. That said, your criticisms are not unwarranted.

[XemaSab]

34. It makes the kind of devotion

that y'all contributed look useless.

My mom was at Berkeley, and the way she makes it sound, when the protests were going on they practically didn't have class.

Unless "everyone" is protesting, you need to go to class, and spend the time not in class doing homework, standing in line at financial aid, and working for minimum wage.

Then you go and get a corporate job you have to be at, and you're done.

Now I've depressed myself. :D

[kentuck]

40. Is it the "corporate job" idea that depresses you ?

Because I see a lot of sellouts to the corporation?

[XemaSab]

44. Just being part of the corporate machinery...

We're all puppets. Even if you think you're not a puppet, you're a puppet.

The other day I had the idea that the neocons are funding the religious right and giving them a voice so that the leftists would be busy trying to combat bullshit like Intelligent Design and stem cell research instead of focusing on the real issue: the BFEE/Neocon hegemony.

[democrank]

38. 60`s protesters did more than make a lot of noise.

Believe me when I tell you that there are still some who have not sold out to this day. I am one and I know many more.

[XemaSab]

39. I'm not trying to be confrontational

but what changes do you think you made in society?

[kentuck]

41. What changes?

Let's see...no draft. You're not in Iraq right now or some other forsaken place.

Women's rights. We fought and marched for women to be free. We fought with Chavez for poor working people. We stood with black brothers as they fought and died for the simple right to vote and to be part of our society. We helped to stop the illegal war in Vietnam and probably saved thousands of lives. But we were young and foolish then. We are so much wiser now.

[Totally Committed]

42. Women in the 60's made 53 cents for every dollar a man made;

Women had no right to choose (there would be no Roe v Wade); there would still be a draft; We would probably have fought in Laos and Cambodia until "victory" was achieved (Vietnam ended years earlier than it would have), and thousands more lives would have been lost; Articles of Impeachment nay not have been brought against Nixon; Nuclear power plants would be all over the countryside, and little nuclear disarmament would have been achieved; there would be no Earth Day, or heightened awareness of the environment; there would be no Animal Rights movement; there would be no NAACP, no ACLU, no Amnesty International.

Activists from my generation made real sacrifices AND a real difference.

Thanks for asking.

[XemaSab]

45. Eh, I'm cynical

:-)

It's hard to appreciate how far we've come when we're 5 years into this nightmare.

If real societal change had been achieved, it seems like Bush would not be the Resident today.

[bobbieinok]

69. women's rights....in many states a married woman had no right to her

earnings; they legally belonged to her husband......a woman couldn't start a business, get a credit card, or get a loan without her husband's signature.........she wasn't married????? very hard to be taken seriously by the bank

the right that women now have to part of their former husband's social security after a marriage of X years was won by 'women libbers'.....that women married to members of the military for X number of years have a claim to the former husband's pension was won by 'women libbers'

I paid attention and when I ended up divorced, I focussed not on alimony but on the pension (after 24 years of marriage).....the accumulated amount (TIAA-CREF) was divided 50-50.....this makes a MAJOR difference in my retirement income..........this would have been impossible before the work of the women's movement of the 60s and 70s

the women's movement is seen as more women executives, lawyers, doctors, etc.......but there were MAJOR improvements in the average woman's economic life that many RW women take for granted with no concept that they owe this to the hard, grinding work of the 60s and 70s despised feminists

[AlwaysDemocrat]

77. I remember many "small" changes

Women were expected to wear skirts at work and school (and skirt length mattered). Men had to conform to short hair styles or they were publicly harrassed. Many barriers were broken down in the 60's and 70's in the workplace, at home and in government - but there is still a long way to go.

[XemaSab]

43. Do you really think

you "ended" Vietnam? Isn't that what Freepers say? That we would have "won" if the people back home had supported the troops? I'm skeptical that protests ended the war... the war wass obviously "unwinnable" and even the stupidest politician will see sooner or later that it's a lost cause.

As far as women, blacks, and poor farm workers go, these are three groups that are still having the same problems that they were having back in the late 60's. The black vote would have won us florida in 2000 and ohio in 2004. Farm workers are still treated awfully. And women are still fighting for basic rights... did we ever get the ERA passed? No.

[Totally Committed]

48. No, we SHORTENED Vietnam.

Why are you so dead set on proving we did nothing, or making light of what we did do? Can I ask you your motive? You say you don't want to be "confrontational", but you cite the ERA not being passed (out of all the things I listed that DID come to pass) as if to say -- see, you really were all failures!

Guilt, maybe? Disrespect, surely. Go be non-confrontational somewhere else. Your post is direspectful, disingenuous, and -- just my opinion -- just plain nasty.

[XemaSab]

50. Sorry for being rude and flamy

I've been hating my job lately.

[Totally Committed]

90. Your kind apology is accepted.

Thank you for your maturity. I appreciate it.

[karynnj]

73. Even though the ERA failed, there were gigantic gains

By 1972, woman with degrees in math, engineering or the sciences were getting jobs in major companies that only a few years before hirer woman only for positions lower than offered to men with the same skills. In the company I knew best, they needed to do a systematic evaluation of older women with the result that many women were promoted to the levels they deserved to be at.

This action was taken because the company needed to do it to avoid lawsuits. This was a result of activism. So, although the ERA didn't pass - a more towards equality for women did. (so you should be able to claim it.)

[democrank]

55. XS.....

Others here have answered your question about what changes were made....many. Several of the people writing here today recall that solid sense of purpose in standing up for what`s right. It wasn`t just a handful here and there, but zillions of people united. The government couldn`t stop us. The police couldn`t stop us. We were going to do the right thing no matter what.

When the military announced its regular bogus body count, we didn`t act like a bunch of tranquilized embedded reporters. We knew it was BS and acted accordingly.

[XemaSab]

56. True...

:hi:

[Le Taz Hot]

81. My dear,

please. You are showing your ignorance. We didn't make a difference?

Can you get an abortion if you choose?
Do you have to be married to apply for credit?
If you get divorced are you automatically denied credit?
How many schools are now "white only?"
Are we still in Viet Nam?
Was there a "Freedom of Information Act" and why was it enacted?
Do students now have rights (in universities)?

Now, granted, all these things are in jeopardy. Why? Let me just posit that Marx was wrong; Religion was not the opiate of the masses, pop culture is. it keeps us distracted. Newest video game anyone?

[Imagevision]

84. Xema> war protestors of the 60's helped ending the slaughter in Viet Nam

sooner - it took a while and many got beat up for the hair-hippie thing but eventually those doing the beatings finally realized what was going on.

Same thing with Bush and his spreading of democracy, lately I don't feature this new democracy this president speaks of, can't identify with it much. Sibel Edmunds!!!!!!!!!!!! let her speak Mr. President.

[Sparkman]

22. My LEADERs were not POLITICIANS like the millionairs in politics....

The artists and the bohemian TRUTH TELLERS, who would welcome you into their life. The MUSIC was revolutionary, and the culture drew lines in the sand. the money didn't buy enough influence to overcome the comradery of the people (til the 80's).
What happens now, for straight arrow types, if they do civil disobedience and get an arrest record, from a career pov?
Support the arts and local craftsman & transfer your corporate pay to the artist community, if you want the truth to be told. MSM can't tell it like it is.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. The last time I was on an anti-war march, I noticed that most of

crowd was either 45+ or high school/college age. There were a few GenXers, but not nearly in proportion to the number that you see in other areas of life.

[rman]

29. Once upon a time the MSM did cover the background of protests,

which made demonstrations effective.

Now we are lucky if a protest gets any coverage at all.

I think people realize this, and it is rather discouraging.

Between the lack of coverage and general depoliticization of the populace, there aren't very many people around any more who are motivated enough to become active.

These days we are fighting on two fronts: the government and the media.
We also have new possibilities; mainly the internet, and fortunately there still is a lot of creativity (ie freeway blogging).

[alfredo]

32. The draft made the anti war movement real to us all.

A media that started to tell the truth aided us.
With the civil rights movement, some brave people took a stand emboldening the rest of us.



Yes, we are still around. Yes we are still willing to man the barricades

[democrank]

37. That photo is just plain great. Thanks.

Sunday I met a couple who protested during the times we`re dicussing here. They`re both as passionate about the issues today as they were back then. When the woman (mid-seventies) spoke up about her daughter being in Iraq, she said no one would ever make her shut up about this unjust war. No one. I loved her spirit.

This morning I was thinking about how many different kinds of people marched against the Vietnam War and took to the streets over social and economic justice issues. So many groups, all ages, all colors.

Remember the Chicago Seven? Black Panthers? Gray Panthers? Daniel and Phil Berrigan? The list is almost endless.

[alfredo]

52. It is hard to protest a war when you are too busy just putting

food on the table.

The republicans apply this to the working class:

"It's hard to remember that your job is to drain a swamp when you are up to your ass in alligators."

Those assholes in Washington know they can keep us passive by forcing economic hardship through debt and the threat of loss of income.

So protesting a war across the world takes a back seat to paying the mortgage.

[rndmprsn]

46. moral outrage is lacking today's lazy relativism

rethug attack machine backed by their HUGE think tanks have managed to muddy the water so to speak...my generation (x that is) is so dumbed down about politics and lead a life based around seinfeld'esque self-absorbtion and blindlessly follow pop culture trends and cling to them comically as if they were their own, ugh i could go on...

anyhow, i don't think ppl have a sense of moral outrage anymore, becuase they don't have many deeply held beliefs...alot of well meaning ppl that i call friends wax poetic all day about being liberal and espousing liberal points of view, which is def cool dont get me wrong...but at the same time they balk when it comes to actually doing anything for the cause, myself from time to time included.

[Old_Fart]

49. "We never worried about what the next person thought about us"

If you get enough people together you can fight for a cause. If you alienated half of the population you lose the force that a larger group has for the fight of the "cause". We welcomed all who wanted to help us fight and we had a huge fight on our hands. Shopping was the last thing on our minds.

I don't understand why people aren't fighting against the machine in power right now. We should be out in the streets fighting back but we are not doing that. One voice in the wind is not going to help.

We also had a Press Corp back in the 60's and 70's unlike today.

[rasputin1952]

53. Our Culture has changed dramatically, and the people we thought we

knew have taken up other interests...like raising G'kids, making sure they'll survive their "Golden Years"...stuff like that.

I am not going to say that the current generation has nothing to be worried about, but it has not hit them yet, they are still starstruck w/celebrity, making money and trying to get along. There is not one 'galvanizing' action out there. The reason the war in Iraq has not gotten their attention until recently, is because it is a distant land, and the bush admin has them accepting the lies that got us there. As horrid as it is to say this, they won't come together until their own have been buried by the thousands...nothing strikes home the structure of war more than burying your family or neighbors.

The Neo-Cons have done one thing correctly, they have polarized the nation as never before. There are questions about 'patriotism',
'honor' and 'freedom'. They youth of today are trying to be as 'patriotic' as the previous generations, but have no idea that dissent is patriotic as well.

"First Amendment Zones" have made it difficult for the millions who oppose bush to be seen in TV or heard in the background. The media exploitation has people believing that bush has more support than he really does. Pay $50 to some people to applaud every time you say "freedom", and you will have a bunch of happy clappers.

But again...although we have thought we have had a common bond occasionally by the massive screw-ups of this this administration before...we have yet to come to the point where it will galvanize people to act en mase...we have not reached critical mass.

60's-70's 'protesters came from all over the political/sociological map. I can recall one picture of a caucasian preacher running out of his church to join a group of black marchers that were demanding Civil Rights. Spontaneous though it was, the message for this man was clear, injustice was being done, and he wanted to be a part of a greater movement for all of America's citizens. Today, people are afraid to step off the curb, and that is sad.

Thousands of marchers descending on the WH would bring others off the curb. Remember the anti-war marches not long ago...where were the the RWnuts? The few that showed up, were worse than cowards crying in the corner. We had them outnumbered 15000:1, but that was just a blip, we need MILLIONS of people standing up to the cabal, all at once and with a loud and strong voice, unified and unwavering. Then, and only then, will we get some people to listen.

Our message is ancient: Peace, Equality, Understanding.

[Lowell]

54. Some of us were too busy

just trying to survive. I was one of those guys hugging the dirt and smelling the cordite in the air. I watched my buddies die and wondered when my time was coming. By time I got through my tour in Vietnam I was totally changed and not about to let anyone ever push me around again. I hate the draft, but do believe in "shared sacrifice." But no one should have to sacrifice for an unjust war.

As much as I hate the draft I think it is the only way to wake America up to the mess this administration has gotten us in. We picked on Iraq because we thought it would be an easy target and we could steal their oil. It is never easy conquering another nation. The resistance is fierce and we are fighting in their backyard. A draft would get the people in the streets quicker than any other action this administration could take. But chances are slim. They know it would be political suicide.

So what is going to happen when we are attacked? What will we do when North Korea bombs the south again, or China flattens Taiwan. Or Iran tests a nuke. We have wasted our military capital on a senseless, doomed war in a country that didn't deserve our attention. We are fucked. A draft will be the only recourse. And by then it will probably be a Democrat in office so naturally we will be blamed for reinstating the draft.

[Chemical Bill]

58. There were a lot more kids...

during the baby boom. Kids who were willing to march in the streets. I went to my first anti-war demonstration in 1968 at age 12. Now I'm at a vigil every week with a handful of old activists, and not too many kids. Sure a draft would get more kids involved now, but I don't like the tradeoff myself.

Everything was different then. The economy was great. There were Democrats who were willing to stand up, they hadn't all been shot yet (or anthraxed, or "Wellstoned"). And it really is hard to have a revolution with no leaders.

But we had just as much of an opposition then. Humphrey was the Democrat who ran against Nixon, and after the Chicago police riot in 1968 many people couldn't stomach Democrats. Bobby Kennedy would have beated Nixon easily, so he got shot in the back at point blank range.

The media was bad, but we had underground newspapers and Liberation News Service (read "Famous Long Ago" by Ray Mungo). We got the truth in songs like "Monster" by Steppenwolf. The daily TV news showed people dying in Vietnam, which had a huge effect. That is why there is such complete corporate control over the TV news now. Now we have DU and Buzzflash, which are even better than underground newspapers, but not everybody gets to see the war.

But we have more to lose as we get older. We have mortgages and obligations and the economy sucks so we have to work. We can't just pick up and go to DC whenever Nixon bombs Cambodia, oops, I mean * bombs Fallujah.

Besides, rigged elections have a way of making our opinions moot.

Bill

[Dr Fate]

59. Plus it was a great way to meet girls.

According to John Lennon & Abbie Hoffman, at least.

[omega minimo]

62. Shoulda left it there

...someone who lived it says that most folks were there to party..............


:boring:

[dolstein]

63. Actually, the DLC would have had a LOT more influence in the 60s

not as a separate organization but within the party. The DLC is much closer to the "JFK Democrat" model than the McGovernite Democrats who took over the party in 1972. Indeed, it was the waning influence of moderates within the formal party organization that led to the formation of the DLC in the mid-1980s.

Frankly, I find it laughable when DU'ers get all nostalgic about the 60's. DU'ers would have HATED LBJ and Humbert Humphrey (both of whom are political heroes of mine), and they wouldn't have trusted JFK any more than the Adlai Stevenson/Eleanor Roosevelt wing did in 1960.

[rasputin1952]

64. I thought LBJ did a lot of things for the infrastructure...he was not

afraid to trample out a new path when necessary. His legacy on Civil Rights is exemplary compared to contemporaries. Nam was his downfall, and he knew he blew it...Nixon made his "Peace with Honor" crap last out till he got re-elected.

Humphrey was a great man. I hold him in very high esteem. Hubert didn't take crap from anyone, and called it like it was. The previous one like that was Wm Jenninngs Bryant. While I could not agree w/all they stood for or tried to accomplish; I can tell you one thing, 'hating' them never crossed my mind....:)

[bobbieinok]

70. you were different from a great many

'hey, hey LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?'

many anti war people sat out the 68 election b/c they thought HHH's support of LBJ was wrong.........so we got NIXON

of course Eugene McCarthy just paved the way for an anti LBJ uprising in NH (which led to LBJ announcing on national TV that he would not run for reelection)......Bobbie then entered the race and looked like a sure thing for nomination until he was murdered in CA the nite he won the CA primary.......and at the convention in Chicago the old style dems like Mayor Daley approved a police riot in which people were attacked in hotel lobbies..........at the same time the Soviet Union was destroying the Prague Spring with tanks, etc, just like they did in the Hungarian Uprising of 56

[rasputin1952]

72. Yes...I remember those days quite well, and there were many sad

things that happened; some of them still unanswered. But in the overall picture, a many good things happened as well. The "War on Poverty" was well aimed, but was a real blow out.

Daley was a complete asshole, and the Chicago riots helped propel Nixon to win the election...:(...but progress was made in Civil Rights, Women's equality began to take off and the media began to come out of its slumber...leading the way, Walter Cronkite.

Nixon got his due, and went into history as a shameful experience; seems like bush is heading in the same direction.

[bobbieinok]

68. MAJOR DIFFERENCE for both civil rights and VN protests the MEDIA

no mega companies.....were looking for scoops

Halberstam on c-span some years ago discussing his book on the Freedom Rides (The Children) answered a question by saying that TV was still new then and wanted pictures

if there'd been the media then that we have now Bull Connor would never have been seen on TV with fire hoses and dogs against children......there would have been no pictures of a little black girl walking to school through lines of yelling, hateful whites

there would have been zero converage with only the 'authorative viewpoint'

the thing was, then even the most die hard segregationist or the most fervid pro Vietnam war person saw and read every day things that contradicted his/her world view

two main things the military learned from Vietnam

1--no draft; call up reserves and publicize their stories (that was done in Gulf War I)......everyone supports the war because we are supporting our neighbors

1--THE MAJOR LESSON: control press access rigidly from the very beginning so that no unauthorized pictures or info gets out......remember how CNN and their reporter were daily attacked in the first war b/c he stayed in Baghdad and reported the effect on real people of those 'beautiful 4th of July like attacks'

[karynnj]

71. I was in college in the 60s/70s and my daughter is a college student now

After many disscussions, she mentioned that one big difference is that (from my comments and some of the music of that time) she sees that we were basically optimistic that time was on our side and that change (in the direct we wanted) was not only possible but inevitable. We were more naive, more optimistic. She thought pessimism and cynicism were more prevelent now.

[Nikki Stone 1]

75. The 60s progressive youth became the 80's fundamentalist youth

I was in college during the Reagan era, and by then the youth energy of students was being channelled into the fundamentalist Christian movement and the more general right wing agenda.

It was about that time that the YAF (William F. Buckley Jr's "Young Americans for Freedom") was recruiting young idealistic students to support what we now think of as neocon ideas. They used to give these students stickers that said "KGB Approved" to put on professors' doors, and students put them there. The YAF were just beginning to get their claws into the university then. Today, the YAF (the Young America Foundation) is the largest outside source of cash for student activities on campus. They dwarf the other competitors.

The YAF was linked ideologically (if not financially) to fundamentalist Christianity as well. This neocon form of religion began recruiting in the late 70s and made its way into the high schools by the early 80s. I remember in college going to a "prayer meeting" with a friend who had "turned her life over to Jesus" after a promiscuous and drug-filled adolescence. The leader--long haired guy with a guitar--was clearly chosen for his attractiveness, but the message was as anti-progressive as it could get. Their opinions on women's rights were appalling.

I did not join, obviously, but other kids with more problems and fewer emotional resources got totally caught up in this. I think it was this fundamentalist movement that replaced the progressive movement on college campuses and I think it was deliberately done. It was clear that a lot of money was put into the thing. I think the YAF funding was a big part of this.

[ProudDad]

78. Actually the recent marches in San Francisco

opposing the invasion of Iraq over that last 3 years were much larger, more determined and more demographically varied than the demonstrations against the Viet-Nam war I attended in the '60's were. I feel that we're up against a stronger, meaner foe but the resolve is building to accomplish this task.

We were a hell of a lot more naive in the 60's -- we thought we could change the world forever I'm afraid and totally dropped the ball after Nixon resigned...alas...

This time, the right-wing must be totally uprooted and discredited for good. It will take the new generation to do it... the generation which is coming up now. I'm heartened by the fact that young people overwhelmingly voted against bush in '04...

I'll be standing with you too.

[EST]

79. Miniver Cheevy, born too late, sat about thinking

Miniver coughed and called it fate-
And kept on drinking.

The world is running down, its old bones poking through its shabby hide.
The great pronouncements from the 1960s that there was enough oil to last for at least 250 to 300 years and enough coal for at least 3000--such myopic optimism. In only one hundred years we have burned through half the available oil and the rest of the world, having quintupled its population, is squabbling over the remaining half, like vultures over the ragged bones of the last herbivore on the plain. There are no remaining frontiers where one can live without special, high tech protection that requires another set of high tech equipment to construct and maintain it.
The chance we had to build a society such as we envisioned in the sixties has been squandered by the very thing that produced the movement - greed.
Greed, the grand killer of all things great and good. The force that produced Jesus, the Christ, and destroyed the very organization that grew up to protect and expand his teachings. Greed-the father of slavery and the death knell of the Roman empire.
Where are we now? Immersed in the planning, fighting, cleanup, and sorrowing for wars of all sizes, all flowing from, in one guise or another, greed.
As all governments, large or small, are engaged in robbing from the less fortunate and giving the proceeds to the richer, or, conversely, trying to resist such efforts, sad, sad poverty and subsistance living is on the near horizon.
From an old visionary protester, now grown cynical: is the world, with its teeming masses of greedy assholes, really worth saving? I have my doubts.

[rasputin1952]

82. Greed is one of the Prime Motivators of the human race. When one

exhausts a resource, one just finds new resources to exploit rather than sit and ponder what havoc has been wreaked.

Hypocrisy is the greatest crime of humanity. We all suffer from it to one degree or another, just as we all have the ability to depend on 20/20 hindsight as opposed to any kind of forethought. We thought we could impose a shift in thought, but we fell into the trap of gain, and many of us are on the brink of survival.

For all of the talk about 'morality', the moral underpinnings of this world are in some serious jeopardy, being hijacked by maniacal zealots with no sense of decency or dignity. For this, the entire world suffers.

Can we make a change...sure. But the changes we make will be small and generally local. When pulled together though, the fabric of a compassionate society can be molded. It takes time and effort, but it can be done.

[EST]

83. Well spoken

Ya' got my vote.
I will take issue with you on greed, however. Greed, as I see it, is unbridled desire, lusting after, beyond reasonable needs. Enlightened self interest is a prime positive motivator, while greed is, of course, a huge motivator for many but it inevitably results in pain or damage to others. Hypocrisy, rather than being the greatest crime, is merely an indicator, a sign, of the source of great crimes, which source is the inability to see others in ourselves. The lack of compassion, the inability to see as real the pain and suffering of others, has been the source of serial murders, rapes, the decimation of entire populations, simply because perpetrator can only see others as tools, objects to be used for their own gratification or gain. This facility, by the way, has been isolated to an area of the brain in the frontal lobe. Scans of the brains of people who cannot be rehabilitated, such as serial murderers, show a decided lack of activity in that area.
It appears that the only societies that have survived for long, long times have been those based on a strict, violent, rigid caste system with very little to do in the way of compassion, such as some areas in the ME, specifically, Iraq. Though they've been attacked and overrun many times, eventually the occupiers have died out, withdrawn or, in one way or another given up on the project as the best of a bad deal. For thousands of years the people of that area, under many different names, lived and flourished. There have been great societies, "civilized" in their own fashion, but as top down, never as 'bottom up;' the very type of society that the BFEE and their minions, in their hypocrisy, envision for America and the world, all the while prattling on with their lies about democracy and the spreading thereof.
I don't see those folks as having any conception of democracy--it just doesn't occur to them, for the most part. Had they ever had any notion of democracy as a viable way of life, it would, in the thousands of years available to them, have been tried out on a large scale and retained. Once again, democratic government, delivered at the point of a weapon, will never work; it is the product of enlightenment. Or, as famously put, democracy, forced from without, is the severest form of tyranny.

Arguably,morals are nothing more than points of view.

[rasputin1952]

88. Excellent in depth synopsis of the situation that has plagued humanity

since the very beginning of when humans began to band together.

I concur that hypocrisy is a symptom of a corrupt society, but I still consider it a 'crime' in that it can be prevented by both the individual and society in general; hypocrisy is a choice, another option in how we deal with our lives.

I might alter my thinking in that ignorance is the 'greatest crime'.
I can deal with stupidity, if you can't learn, it is tragic, but unavoidable. Ignorance, especially self imposed ignorance, is a great horror of humanity. We are all ignorant of innumerable items and situations, but when we refuse to accept that situations exist, and then turn a blind eye to empathy, we are guilty of a self imposed ignorance.

I have often stated in public that there should not be one child, (unless contraindicated), that has not received the basic childhood immunizations; there should not be one person in this nation that goes to sleep hungry. While coming together in small bands, and countering the problems locally, eventually we could grow into a statewide, then national movement toward a more compassionate and caring nation. Eventually, we could expand this on a continental then worldwide scale. Long after my lifetime, progress should have been made to the point where people of different cultures would finally meld together to benefit humanity.

You also are correct in the fact that democracy can never flourish at the point of a bayonet. The desire comes from within a certain society/population, and then that society/population must press forward the changes necessary to ensure it becomes a reality. Leading by positive example does more for a cause than all of the colorful rhetoric that has ever been uttered.

[EST]

91. Certainly don't want an old brain to deteriorate from

under utilization, do ya'?
Ignorance is the only sin or crime, in the infantry or in primitive society, for which the punishment is, invariably, death. These days, the comfort of a low demand, technically forgiving society has allowed uncritical sloppy thinking and ignorance to flourish.
Over many years I, like you, held literally thousands of conversations and published, in one way or another, hundreds of thousands of words leading to the same conclusions: that willful, self directed, intentional ignorance is a sort of insult to thinking people and a criminal indecency to its perpetrator. No matter how artfully it is disguised, the plaintive bleat of, "how could you/he/they (pick your own pronoun) be so damn dumb?" just adds to one's frustration and rarely produces positive results.

Around thirty years ago, I managed to arrive at the startling notion that nobody, under normal circumstances, one day simply decides that- today I'm going to embark on a life of being dumber than a sled track - it just doesn't work that way. G Dubya, himself, did not consciously decide to be the proud owner of an arrested development at the level of a spoiled five year old. The apologists for his ridiculous behavior did not, one day, decide to be consummate liars and criminal enablers and their idiotic behavior is actually the result of sincere, if misguided, belief systems.

The atrocious behavior and criminal negligence actually appear to them as highly moral, in the service of some greater good. As difficult as it may be to allow their humanity, even Gee Dubya, in his diseased mental state, thinks his own behavior is required, demanded, to combat the greater evil he sees before him. In my work with convicted criminals and other such social outcasts, I have found, almost invariably, that each of them felt, at some level, their activities and behavior were entirely justified. I am reminded of the story of the killer, in the old west, when asked why he murdered his victims, told his questioners, "I'm alive and he's dead and that's the way I wanted it."

Some of us, through biology or training, have managed to become thoughtful, rational, empathetic beings naturally, often without any conscious effort. Others, unfortunately, absent some transformational event or circumstance, will wind up destroyers of all that's good and wholesome, all the while believing, against all evidence (selective filtering,) that they are the real heroes, the saviors of humanity. And they will attempt to save us, no matter our objections, with all the demented fervor they are capable of.
How can we cure such tragic illness?

[rasputin1952]

93. We cannot cure such a tragic illness,,,after all, much akin to

addiction, it is up to the individual to accept that they are flawed, and a change must be made from within. Far too many cannot accept that they could possibly be wrong.

With bush, we have the added problem of an incendiary situation with perceived religion; this fool believes that God himself put him in the WH, therefore he can do no wrong. (A quandary here for the zealots, if this IS true about bush, it was also true for Clinton....that makes RW heads spin....:) ). His self delusion, considering the position he holds, can literally open up a holocaust of previously unknown dimensions and horrors. THIS ignorant gasbag actually has the power to open up a nuclear arsenal!

I am in Nebraska, and I can tell you that I have not heard anyone touting bush since about February...he has become a pariah, at least publicly. This does not bode well for the GOP. If NE is silent in it's support(?) of bush, the rest of the nation must downright despise him.

As for the self-imposed ignorance, as I said above, we cannot expect much from external influences to change the situations we see. If someone decides to remain ignorant of facts, no matter how compelling those facts are, they will simply bask in the glory of their ignorance. I find out everyday, that some of the things I thought were correct, were instead different from what I believed. I know I cannot be right all the time, but I strive to find answers, and I have done well up to this point. Truth can be manipulated, but it cannot be disposed of. Even after manipulation, it rises to the top eventually and conquers the lies and distortions. Some will never accept basic truths, for them, I feel regret, because they live in a world of shadows and fear, and can never really enjoy a life of knowledge and experience.

[EST]

94. Kind of explains the pendulum theory, doesn't it?

I live in very rural Illinois, in a very red area in a blue state.

[kliljedahl]

85. Yeah, but try as hard as we might

we couldn't levitate the pentagon.


Keith’s Barbeque Central

[flannelmouth]

86. from an old guy

Just an observation. The people with nothing to lose today have nothing to lose. Young people not facing a draft, not starting a career, not having family obligations yet, seem to think that SITTING ON YOUR ASS IN FRONT OF A MONITOR IS ACTIVISM! For kripe sakes who has time to accumulate thousands and thousands of posts? You are preaching the choir and nobody else is paying attention. Hell!! We didn’t have computers , cell phones, or any of this crap and we could pour thousands of people to the streets when we had to. Woodstock was word of mouth. The march on the capital mall was spontaneous. Get off of your butts and do something and maybe people will listen.

Thanks for letting me rant.

[Nikki Stone 1]

87. Actually, there is activism you can do on your computer

Signing petitions, writing letters, sending money, etc.

And the internet message board seems to be the new coffee house: it's a place where like minded people meet to discuss things and get organized to do some activism.

Look at the donations that were made in the last week to Hackett in Ohio over the net. As for me, every women's issue that comes up on line is one I act on--sending money, letters, signing petitions, emails. And I am someone who used to go on marches and clinic defenses.

Computer activism is certainly much better than doing nothing. I agree that there might be more personal committment if we actually met and marched together. But computer activism isn't nothing.

[H2O Man]

89. The cultural divide

was much larger. It included the draft. It also included the music, the way people dressed, the idea of hippies and communes, and doing things for free. There were also highly visible youth leaders on a national level, something that does not exist today.