Dean will fight to allow snowmobilers in Yellowstone

[ParticipatoryDem]

I got a call back from the Dean campaign today returning an answer to a question I posed last week. Dean claimed the latest ban was based on bad data and did not take into account the newer, cleaners, non-smoking four-stroke snowmobiles that are cleaner and quieter than the mass-transit snowcoaches that people are issued earplugs to ride in for eight hours. He said his staff would prove once and for all that the newer snowmobiles would not harm the air and sound quality any more than the millions of cars and RVs that visit in the Summer.

Good for Dean for reaching out to Vermont and midwest snowmobilers that have become disenfranchised due to outdated data from 1960's based reports on Lawnboy lawnmowers. The tens of thousands of snowmobiler votes can only help get a Dem back in the White House.

[mac56]

1. Welcome, PaticipatoryDem

I'm reserving judgment until I see something official on the Dean campaign website.

[NashVegas]

2. Same Here

And a question: does the * administration recognize these cleaner-running snowmobiles and require them?

[KittyWampus]

29. The Court Just Overturned The Bush Admistration's Allowal Of New Machines

it was just in the news last week... a couple of days ago.

December 12 Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals overturned an injunction against Roadless Area Conservation Rule.

The machines are STILL a nuisance...

Edited because I don't think Dean DID make a blanket statement.

[ParticipatoryDem]

76. I don't know what the bush admin recognizes

Nor do I care. I want Dean (and others) to get snowmobilers on their side and now with the new cleaner and quieter snowmobiles there is no reason to disenfranchise them.

[mac56]

120. If you don't know or care what the current administration recognizes

for snowmobiles, then you need to go and do your homework.

[SadEagle]

5. Same here, particularly since...

... in the NH forum that was on CSPAN recently, when asked about Snowmobiles, Dean answered that he would go w/the opinion of park rangers, saying that he recalls it being in favor of a ban

[madfloridian]

7. That is definitely what he said.

He said there might be some areas in which it would be allowed but some where it might not be.
I question this blanket statement without more documentation.

[AnnabelLee]

8. I concur

I saw the end of that segment on c-span, & that is what I recall Dean saying.

[ParticipatoryDem]

72. I'll get them to post it Tuesday

It's true - then new snowmobiles are really very clean and quiet.

[WatchWhatISay]

3. Did I dream this

or did I see you ask him this question on Cspan, right after he spoke?

[maxanne]

59. let us pray

that this isn't the same guy who posed the question in NH. That forum was in my hometown - and I know that guy.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

64. Who cares who the guy is - that's besides the point.

n/t

[maxanne]

95. then

why even bother to answer my post?

[bahrbearian]

4. Bull Shit

If you Love the wilderness you could at least put on a pair of snow shoe's or some ski's. Get off your ass Amurika!!

[ParticipatoryDem]

39. You can't ski or hike to old faithful from West Yellowstone

It's more than sixty miles. A snowmobile is perfect for the job.

[mac56]

41. Okay, you're back!

Got a link on this? Or just word of mouth?

This just doesn't add up, friend.

[ParticipatoryDem]

77. If it's ok I'll post the staffer name Tuesday

It's on my desk. He is in Burlington Vermont.

[GreenArrow]

6. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not

Who needs national parks anyway; sell 'em off to the highest bidder and tear the fuckers up. Tear 'em all up. Fuck peace and quiet. Piss on clean air. Who needs trees? Those animals who live in the parks can stuff it too. Screw 'em. Who needs 'em.

[bahrbearian]

10. No better yet! Let's just fumigate the Bison, Elk and Bears

that way we don't have to smoke em' for jerky!

[ParticipatoryDem]

42. The new machines are as clean or cleaner than the cars on the same roads

No need to make up any "smoked" red herrings.

[mac56]

43. links please

nm

[ParticipatoryDem]

40. Dude, the snowmobiles travel on the roads only

Just like you would in your car in the Summer.

[HuckleB]

127. That's the propaganda line, but it's not reality.

[ParticipatoryDem]

79. GA, the new snowmobiles are no worse than the millions of cars there

They will not hurt the trees or the air and trhe sleeping bears will never hear them. They are cleaner and quieter than the current snowcoaches that roar on the roads.

[GreenArrow]

140. they have no business being there

a national park is not a playground. The only people who need to be using snowmobiles on National parks and forests are staff. For work. Snowmobiles are just loud, destructive toys.

[neuvocat]

9. If this is actually true

then what is going on with a man who has so many priorities but still pays any sort of heed to the rights of snowmobilers?

Gads!

[madfloridian]

11. I don't think this is true. That is not what he said last week at all.

n/t

[unfrigginreal]

12. The Governor said something quite different the other day on CSPAN

He said he would take the advice of the Park rangers on whether snowmobiles should be allowed. So, I guess we'll have to decide who to believe, you or him? :shrug:

[ParticipatoryDem]

44. The rangers agree the new four-stroke snowmobiles are clean enough

If it's ok for cars then snowmobiles are ok too.

[mac56]

47. Am I the only one who would like to see a link on this?

nm

[Bread and Circus]

13. If Dean thinks snowmobilers in Yellowstone is great...

I will be so thrilled to vote for him...:eyes:

[Spider Jerusalem]

14. This is BAD and WRONG.

Great. Yeah. Let's allow buzzing, roaring, polluting vehicles into what's supposed to be a relatively pristine wilderness area. Brain damage at its finest. Huzzah. Way to go, Howard. Suck up to any voting base you can pitch yourself to. We all know that winning is more important than anything, so it doesn't matter if you compromise any principles you claim to have along the way, right?

I keep finding more and more reasons to ONLY vote for Dean if he is the nominee, and then only grudgingly.

[bahrbearian]

15. I guess I'll have to vote green again.

they just don't get it!

[DrBB]

23. Hold on cowpoke. We got suspicion of disinformation here

At least an awful lot of posters are saying this isn't what they've heard Dean say on this, and I don't see the original poster coming back to defend the point. That certainly triggers a couple of warning chimes on my disinformation radar. I don't think this is wildly outside the sphere of Dean's positions on related issues, but this is also rich territory for disruption. Let's see if the original poster wants to back this up with some sources, shall we?

[mac56]

37. Sure smells like disinformation to me.

Too vague and inconsistent with other statements. Has a certain "smear" feel about it.

[ParticipatoryDem]

81. It's all positive news. No smear needed.

If the new snowmobiles are as clean and quiet as the millions of cars on the same roads then there is no good reason to ban them. Howard can bring around many thousands of snowmobiler votes with this move and that is all good news.

[ParticipatoryDem]

48. Dean was supported by Vermont snowmobilers

He knows how to relate and plus the new snowmobiles are a thousand times cleaner and quieter than just two years ago. Look it up.

[mac56]

49. Dude, you're making the assertion. Don't tell me to "look it up".

This just looks to me like a big ol' gearhead fantasy.

[ParticipatoryDem]

83. I doubt the families enjoying seeing Yellowstone in Winter are gearheads

Even if they were why would it matter if they travel using transportation that is as clean as the family car?

[ParticipatoryDem]

45. The new machines don't buzz or roar or pollute more than cars

Why is it ok for cars on the same roads the machines will run on?

[Spider Jerusalem]

46. No, and cars aren't allowed in that part of the park either...

or weren't you aware of that?

[ParticipatoryDem]

85. You are mistaken

"That part of the park"??? The snowmobile travel ONLY on the same roads as the cars do in the Summer. They groom the roads from West Yellowstone to old faithful and it is those roads that the snowmobiles travel on. No snowmobiles are allowed on the hiking or XC trails. It's misinformation like that which caused much of the confusion on the snowmobile issue.

[Clark Can WIN]

16. OK Dean supporters

This smells like a freep. I'm alerting on it. Merry Christmas.

[ibegurpard]

17. HAHAHAHA!

:thumbsup:

[unfrigginreal]

18. We owe you one!

:yourock:

[ParticipatoryDem]

50. No freep here

I speak the truth and have studied the issue and the new snowmobiles are vey quiet and clean and see no reason they can't travel on the roads to see the park in the Winter. They are cleaner than the snowcoaches that are still allowed.

[robbedvoter]

19. F* Mother Nature! let's go for a ride! yeay!

As for hikers, get your own candidate!
Forget the South! we got the snowmobilers!

[kalian]

20. Hmmm....

Makes no sense to "fight" for this. I mean really...how many
morons want to ride their snow mobiles in Yellowstone...and are
they a big voting block...? :shrug:

[bahrbearian]

22. Just for everyone in Idaho,Montana, Wyoming, Washington ....

[kalian]

38. So...you're saying that all these midwesterners....

would NOT vote for Dean because they're not allowed to play with
their snow mobiles....?
Then you know what...America DESERVES another 4 friggin years
of Bush. :mad:

[ParticipatoryDem]

88. If we can win those states then all the better

Go Dean!

[bahrbearian]

24. Iowa, North Dakota,Oregon, South Dakota, Minnisota....

[bigtree]

27. they want to allow as many as 200 at a time

[ParticipatoryDem]

52. How many cars and RVs are allowed at a time in the Summer?

There's no good reason not to allow clean and quiet snowmobiles which are way fewer in number than cars.

[bigtree]

82. clean and quiet is a misnomer

maybe cleaner and quieter. (I believe this also can be disputed)

Noise and pollution are among many other reasons to ban the machines from Yellowstone and other ecologically sensitive areas.
(see post #35)

[ParticipatoryDem]

86. Morons?

How many want to drive their cars on the same roads in the Summer that the snowmobiles use in the Winter? Why call them morons? They are not harming anyone or the park.

[mandyky]

21. I think PD is fibbing

Dean spoke to a Manchester, NH townhall meeting last week, and he said that the park rangers shooould have input about snowmobiles as well as other access.

[ParticipatoryDem]

56. Yes they should

And the rangers that have seen and barely heard the new ones can attest they truly are clean and quiet. Cleaner than the snowcoaches allowed now.

[madfloridian]

25. To solve this, give the name of the person who called you back.

Then we can check. There is just too much discrepancy with what he has said on TV and what you are saying.

I think we need to keep this kicked until we get to the truth.

[ParticipatoryDem]

54. I'll post it Tuesday - it's on my desk at work

It's true. The newer snowmobiles are really as clean and quiet as cars now.

[mac56]

57. I'll be looking for it.

Say, do you own a Polaris dealership or something?

[ParticipatoryDem]

90. I have no interest nor deal in snowmobiles

I gave seen Yellowstone in Winter on both snowmobile and snowcoach. I'll never step foot in a snowcoach again. Snowcoaches are loud, smelly and you can't stop to view the vistas. The snowmobile trips were wonderful and the freedom involved was breathtaking.

[bigtree]

26. clinton banned them

Bush reversed that

I heard that a judge ruled last night that they had to revert to the 1980 something old standards. He apparently said that the reversion was done without any supporting facts for the reversal. Hundreds showed up to tear the park to shreds and were turned away. The administration was told to go back and re do their reversal order to prove that the snowmobiles would not harm the environment. Until that time, no snowmobiles. Small victory. Will your candidate hold the ground laid down by Pres. Clinton? Or will they equivocate?

[ParticipatoryDem]

58. The Clinton ban was based on older, dirty and noisy snowmobiles

The newer ones have cleaned up their act and are a thousand times better.

[bigtree]

87. New, 'cleaner' snowmobiles pollute more than others EPA contends -

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/news/stories/20030904/localnews/188822.html

A new generation of snowmobiles, approved for use in Yellowstone National Park after being promoted as cleaner and quieter, emit more pollution than models produced two years ago, according to testing data from the Environmental Protection Agency.

The controversial decision to allow snowmobiles in Yellowstone and neighboring Grand Teton National Park was based on industry promises that models with new engines would do less to foul the air and water in the nation's oldest national park.

But recent tests conducted on the 2004 models show that the machines produce from 40 percent to 213 percent more emissions than 2002 models

Officials from the Department of the Interior and Yellowstone will meet Friday with industry leaders in Washington to discuss the implications of the findings and their potential impact on the park's decision to reverse a Clinton-era decision to ban the machines.

Ex-NPS heads say new snowmobiles worse - billingsgazette.com
http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2003/09/11/build/wyoming/30-snomo.inc

Four former directors of the National Park Service urged the Bush administration on Wednesday to scrap its plan for snowmobiles in Yellowstone National Park because newer models of the machines are more polluting than those produced two years ago.

In a letter to Interior Secretary Gale Norton, the former officials from Democratic and Republican administrations said that newer snowmobiles -- including some recently certified for use in Yellowstone -- don't live up to the Bush administration's assertion that technology would continue to improve beyond 2002 models.

Production of "cleaner and quieter" machines was one of the key concepts behind the administration's decision to overturn a ban on snowmobiles in favor of a plan allowing a limited number of new machines that meet certain standards.

"Your stated intention to allow continued snowmobile use in Yellowstone assumed that the industry would take seriously the well-documented dangers of polluting machines to park personnel, the public and the ecosystem," the letter to Norton states. "Now the industry has betrayed that hope, shrugging off its pledges of good faith toward Yellowstone."

[ParticipatoryDem]

113. Not the four-strokes...they are clean and quiet as cars

Look it up.

[bigtree]

138. Where's your proof? Here's mine

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/news/stories/20030904/localnews/188822.html

The Bush administration's move to reverse the snowmobile ban was predicated on assurances from manufacturers that new technology would produce models that would reduce harmful emissions and run more quietly. "We started this all in good faith," Yellowstone spokeswoman Marsha Karle said. "We based our decision on the fact that the machines would continue to be cleaner and quieter and the industry would work toward that end."

The tests on different types of Polaris and Arctic Cat snowmobiles measured emissions of carbon monoxide and hydrocarbons. Of the three models tested, one didn't pass the emissions standards set by the park and another failed to operate within permissible noise levels.

Measured by another, more conservative method, none of the new machines met the park's standards. It is not clear which of the two measurements the park will use when certifying snowmobiles for use in Yellowstone, but a National Park Service official said Wednesday that the stricter standard could be enforced more efficiently.

In addition, none of the new machines came close to bettering the emission level of the 2002 models. By one measure, the latest model produced more than double the hydrocarbons.


These were four stroke engines. But you don't care. You think that people on this board are too stupid to see through your repetitive rant about cleaner engines that don't exist, except in your mind. I've been here long enough to recognize that you are making a hollow argument. It should be easy to find proof of these cleaner engines which will stand the scrutiny of the EPA, the Park Service, and the courts. If it in fact exists. Your failure to do so is telling.

[KittyWampus]

28. Well, The Courts Just Overruled The Bush Administration's New Rules

Edited because it isn't clear what Dean actually said.

[robbedvoter]

30. Hey, where did the bravos go? When I posted there were 10 people

saying that this was wonderful!

[ibegurpard]

31. Yeah right!

Here's the VERY FIRST reply to the comment:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=19809&mesg_id=19833&page=
:eyes:

[eileen_d]

32. I don't believe this one bit.

First off, the part about "tens of thousands of snowmobiler votes" is a bit of a joke. I live about 200 miles from Yellowstone Park, and there are groups lobbying for the rights of snowmobilers, but as "special interests" go it's pretty negligible.

Second, I don't believe Dean would take this position. Although he's not my favorite candidate, one thing I can say for him is that as a doctor he would look at the science behind the snowmobiling issue, and that science is solidly against the current snowmobiling policy. Therefore someone would need to provide something more than anecdotal proof that Dean is pro-snowmobiling before it would pass my "smell test." Because Dean is not a fool.

For more info on this issue: http://www.greateryellowstone.org/

[ParticipatoryDem]

60. Science is pro-snowmmobile with the new snowmobiles

Yes the older snowmobiles we smokey and loud but not now.

[bigtree]

91. not so

see post #87

[Sugarbleus]

33. Interesting data...

I like clean air, clean water, smog free skies, wild life, the great outdoors etc. I taught my children NOT to litter BEFORE it was fashionable. Not butts out the window and I'm not so keen on hunting. I went to Yosemite two years ago and IT WAS PACKED with automobiles/vehicles. It was like driving in downtown San Francisco...so congested. I guess they are trying a new plan for traffic and visitors--one that will benefit everyone including the Park.
I went to Yellowstone park a few years further back--about two years after the fire. It was lovely but it was also barren from that fire. There was lots of grass but not many trees. Burned out stumps on naked hills as the backdrop for Buffalo and other wildlife. This park was ALSO crammed with vehicles and visitors. There are several places one can go to "get away" from the crowds as the Park is enormous. It would take several visits to Yellowstone to see it all. In the winter, there are less people/vehicles visiting.
I visited Kings Canyon Park in Calif. where it was almost deserted. It was beautiful in it's own way. The same holds true for Lassen Park in No. Calif. I hate the sound of motorized dirt bikes in the wilderness, likewise radios and music. But that's just me. I have no problem with clean burning motor boats on lakes...they are fun. I likewise have no problem with modern, clean burning, quiet snowmobiles as long as the riders/operators are responsible.
The one thing that really puzzles me about some on the left (I am a progressive too)is this radical environmentalism!!.
There are fine minds in this world that can come up with safe, sane, clean ways to enjoy our wilderness and park areas. I do not believe in letting fires burn. I do believe in cleaning up the deadwood in forests and replanting. Safe, sane,and environmenally wise logging should not be a problem. Logging provided many jobs and kept forest healthy for years and years. As I travel, by car, across this beautiful country and through the mountains I see BARREN hillsides. Up until the "let it burn" generation came to be, the forests were always "there" when we drove through them. Now it's all gone GONE MIND YOU--and loss of animal habitat. My grandchildren will never know how beautiful the mountains were. It will take many generations to reforest those gorgeous mountains.
I wish the radical environmentalists would get a grip. It is making the "other side" think we are all a bunch of unreasonable loonies. Let it snow, let it snow...
Peace

[Smokie]

61. Barren hillsides, eh?

Before forests were inflicted with 'Let it burn': who put out the fires?

You, sugerbloos, call some ''radical''.... when it is you who is the radical. You don't know much about ecology, do you? Yet you spew this pseudo-educated crap about forests when any fool knows that the forests did just fine without man's overbearing influence for millions of years.

The reason you see barren hills is that the timber has been removed by industry, not by natural processes.

[Sean Reynolds]

34. Sounds like utter BS to me.......

I don't like to call people liars, but this goes against everything Dean has said. Hm, prove Dean's campaign said this.

[bigtree]

35. Snowmobiles Don't Belong In Yellowstone

Report from the field. Snowmobiles run amuck in Yellowstone Park.
http://www.forwolves.org/ralph/snomobiles-amuck.htm

Today was the icing on the cake for those of us who are looking forward to the end of snowmobiles in Yellowstone. Today we witnessed why they should be gone tomorrow.

While coming in from West Yellowstone, we witnessed a snowmobiler swat the backside of a bison, while she was being pushed down the road by about 40 sleds. The bison turned on the snowmobiler, flipping the sled about 8 feet off the road, with the idiot still on the snowmobile. This same group of Snowmobilers then pushed this herd of 16 bison about 4 miles down the road at full gallop, with the riders 6 abreast going down the road. The herd of bison included 3 very pregnant cows. As we watched this go on, we could not believe how insensitive these Snowmobilers were to these animals.

Today was a great day for being a poster child for no snowmobiling in Yellowstone. We saw more off road violations than ever before, with one snowmobiler intentionally making a very large figure 8 in a field that was posted with No Snowmobiles allowed with fines of $50 - $500. This was a blatant act of vandalism.

We also witnessed a group of 8 riders chase after a small herd of cow and calf elk, with the elk actually getting up, and swimming across the Madison River.



CNN.com - Nature - Smog-choked Yellowstone mulls snowmobile ban - March 6, 2000 http://www.cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/06/yellowstone.snow.fight

About 55,000 snowmobiles enter the park each winter at the West Yellowstone entrance. When employees working there reported getting sick, the park found high carbon monoxide levels and had to start pumping fresh air into the entrance booths.

The pollution levels at the west entrance at times range as high as famously smoggy cities like Denver and Atlanta.

It may be hard to believe the small machines could broadly affect the air in Yellowstone, a park bigger than Delaware and Rhode Island combined.

But their two-stroke engines spit out 78 percent of the park's carbon monoxide emissions and 94 percent of its hydrocarbons, leaving a smelly blue haze in their wake.


ABCNEWS.com : Snowmobiles Polluting Yellowstone National Park
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/DailyNews/snowmobiles020325.html

11/12/2002 | Bush administration overturns ban on snowmobiles in Yellowstone http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/news/4504099.htm

Environmentalists charged the president was selling out to snowmobile manufacturers while ignoring what they called the overwhelming public opposition to snowmobile use in the park. Although the Bush plan restricts some snowmobile access routes, it will result in more of the machines in Wyoming's Yellowstone, critics said.

Bush's action overturns a ban on snowmobiles in Yellowstone that was imposed in 2000 by President Bill Clinton, who cited noise and air pollution generated by the vehicles. The Clinton initiative was to have been phased in, with snowmobiles scheduled to be totally banned from the park by the winter of 2003-04.

The Environmental Protection Agency had called for a snowmobile ban in 1999. The EPA has estimated that 13 percent of the nation's hydrocarbon emissions, 6 percent of its carbon monoxide emissions and 3 percent of its nitrogen oxide emissions come from snowmobiles, power boats, and off-road and similar vehicles, which have been exempt from pollution regulations applied to automobiles.

Bush Opens Yellowstone to More Snowmobiles JR PEGG / ENS 13nov02
http://www.mindfully.org/Heritage/Bush-Snowmobile-Yosemite13nov02.htm

The Salt Lake Tribune -- Ban on Yellowstone Snowmobiles Favored in Park Service Report http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Feb/02012003/utah/25401.asp

An "internal draft" report prepared by the Bush administration's National Park Service concludes that banning snowmobiles from Yellowstone National Park is the best way to protect the park, its employees and visitor enjoyment.

This spring, the Bush administration is expected to finalize a rule to reverse a Clinton administration measure that would have phased snowmobiles out of Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks. The Clinton rule would have required wintertime visitors to enter the park on snowshoes, skis or in tracked vans called snowcoaches.

Rather than eliminate snowmobiles, the Bush administration -- bowing to legal pressure from snowmobile manufacturers -- proposed requiring that snowmobiles used in the park have the newer and cleaner four-stroke engines and that no more than 1,100 be allowed inside the park at any time. Up to 2,000 snowmobiles have been counted in the park on the busiest days in recent years.

But the Park Service's internal report states that the "environmentally preferred alternative" used in the Clinton rule "best preserves the unique historic, cultural and natural resources."


CNN - Snowmobiles shattering Yellowstone's winter solitude - March 5, 1997 http://www.cnn.com/EARTH/9703/05/snowmobiles

Bush Administration Seeks to Keep Snowmobiles in Yellowstone
http://www.backcountryalliance.org/snowmobiles/2003_01_bush.htm

[bigtree]

63. here's where Gov. Dean denounced the Bush administrations actions

The Next Hundred Years: Forging a Strong Environmental Policy to Take Our Natural Resources Back
http://www.ilgreenparty.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=328

"In Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks, the Administration overturned a rule proposed after years of discussion with scientists and the public - a rule phasing out snowmobiles in those two parks. (There are other parks where snowmobiling is not a problem.) The Bush Administration made a deal with the snowmobile industry and blocked the rule. That's not leadership. We can do better."

I support John Kerry for president. But, I find no cause to attack Gov. Dean on this issue barring any equivocation by him on snowmobile access in the future.

[mouse7]

36. I need to see linked evidence for this.

I don't believe that the Dean campaign would issue a statement that include terms like "would not harm the air and sound quality any more than the millions of cars and RVs that visit in the Summer."

If they do, I'll be the first one to say I'm wrong. However, I think that's unlikely. Peope who issue policy statements are sensitive to turns of phrases like the one I quoted. That implies millions of vehicles riding through a National Park all summer does little harm, and I sincerly doubt they feel that way.

[ParticipatoryDem]

65. It's true

Refusing to allow clean and quiet snowmobiles on the same roads ans millions of cars makes no sense. Why is it so hard to understand that people want the freedom to see the park in the Winter? Sure, the older snowmobiles were loud and bothersome but not anymore with the new four-stroke and quiet snowmobiles.

[KaraokeKarlton]

51. I just heard Dean talk about this in a recent Cspan spot

He didn't say that he would push for snowmobiling in state parks. He said he wouldn't ban it nor would he demand it...that he would let those running the parks decide whether or not they could open some trails based on the needs of the parks. I know with Yellowstone they are already dealing with concerns about too many visitors doing some damage. Dean is NOT anti hunting or snowmobiling, which makes him a lot more fair. He doesn't have his mind already made up that it's bad. Sledding is huge in Vermont and he's right, snowmobiles are not anything like what they used to be. They've come a very long way. It's a lot of fun and if states took the time to set aside good trails people would use them rather than sledding where they aren't supposed to.

[bigtree]

67. Yellowstone Rangers favor the ban

The Salt Lake Tribune -- Ban on Yellowstone Snowmobiles Favored in Park Service Report http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Feb/02012003/utah/25401.asp

[KaraokeKarlton]

71. If they favor the ban

So will Dean. Would Dean ask them to look at new facts and reconsider? Maybe, maybe not...but he will NOT force the park to allow snowmobiling.

[bigtree]

75. Hope so

I'd like to hear him say this, however.

[KaraokeKarlton]

89. If he's shown the facts that proves that's the position he should take

He'll take it. That's the doctor in him. He doesn't typically take a position on something unless he's got all the info he needs to make an informed statement. I like to call it "covering his ass". Nothing wrong with that, and it's quite smart, actually.

[bigtree]

92. There are enough facts available for him to make a stand on this

I want to hear a statement like: Snowmobiles in Yellowstone hurt the environment and threaten the wildlife there. I believe there should be no snowmobiles allowed in the park and other sensitive areas as well. Therefore, I will actively pursue and support the ban.

Gov. Dean may well have to lead on this issue one day in the face of a bogus assault from the snowmobile industry and their congressional supporters. I get the sense from his stance, as you have articulated it, that he might someday allow the machines back into the park if there is a wavering in the opposition from the Park Service or elsewhere.

Better that he stands firmly against them if that's what he believes. I will look carefully at what he has said.

I like John Kerry's statement on snowmobiles in Yellowstone. Direct. Unequivocal.

[ParticipatoryDem]

100. Snowmobiles have changed to be clean and quiet

Your argument against them is no longer valid.

[bigtree]

106. Further up on the thread I provide two articles which refute that.

Bush's own EPA told him that the new engines were still dirty and noisy. (see post #87)

[oasis]

107. check the LBN Hillary/Guillini thread. Seems he has plenty of anecdotal

"evidence" on that thread as well.

[ParticipatoryDem]

110. Some are still dirty and they are still two-strokes

The only ones slated for Yellowstone were the four-strokes which are clean and quiet.

[ParticipatoryDem]

116. The EPA has not examined the new four-stroke engines

All the EPA reports are based on two-stroke engines so I can understand your confusion. When the report on four-strokes comes out it will show that they are more than clean enough. They also don't smoke.

For example, the new Yamaha four-stroke snowmobile uses the exact same engine that their R1000 street bike uses. This motorcycle (and all others) are allowed in the park in the Summer so why on earth would it not be allowed on the same roads in the Winter? The snowcoaches that all the environmental groups approve of are far dirtier and noisy than the new four-stroke snowmobiles.

[mac56]

121. You just contradicted yourself

Above, you said you neither know nor care what the current administration has to say about snowmobiles.

Which is it?

[ParticipatoryDem]

123. I believe the EPA should deal with fact and not politics

As long as they deal with fact I don't consider them as the "current administration".

[mac56]

131. You don't think the EPA's political?! Or part of the Bush administration?!

Step right this way, chum. I have a bridge to sell you.

[ParticipatoryDem]

104. They are working with old data

New snowmobiles are clean and quiet.

[bigtree]

108. ParticipatoryDem

you have produced no evidence that these new snowmobiles are clean enough and quiet enough to pass the muster of the EPA and the Park Service who have advocated against the snomobiles in Yellowstone.

Where is your 'new' data?

There are plenty more reasons to ban these machines from Yellowstone that have nothing to do with pollution or noise. (see post #35)

[SahaleArm]

70. Did he mention states rights or maybe parks rights? n/t

[KaraokeKarlton]

74. Basically he said that the people who know what's best for parks

are those people running it everyday.

[bigtree]

78. What's wrong with this?

"Honor the solitude and beauty of wilderness areas and our National Parks by keeping snowmobiles and jet skis out of Yellowstone and other sensitive areas, and by honestly addressing visitor and wildlife needs in our National Parks" -John Kerry
http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/enviros/plan.html

Clear enough. More than enough facts on the ground to justify the pledge. Unequivocal.

[ParticipatoryDem]

101. That's old news and old thinking

Snowmobiles have changed and become clean and quiet. Throw away all your old data and refresh with the new facts that snowmobiles are now clean and quiet.

[bigtree]

109. you either don't read the posts or are ignoring them

All of your blather about cleaner snowmobiles has been refuted by the EPA and others. Turns out the 2003 and 2004 engines produced up to %40 more emissions than the 2002 machines. (see post #87)

[ParticipatoryDem]

111. Only the two-strokes are still dirty

You need to reread the EPA report.

[janx]

53. To ALL:

Why does anyone bother to take the bait on such a thread? Anyone can make a claim to anything here, it seems.

I could make a claim that I heard anything from anyone's campaign, just to get people riled up.

Why even bother to reply to things like this?

[mac56]

55. true

Not worth any more time and effort.

[bigtree]

73. Any equivocation on the ban that would allow snowmobiles

in Yellowstone by a President Dean will be seen as a devestating move by many who stongly oppose them. I don't think a 'wait and see, the snowmobiles are cleaner stance' will be enough to pacify me or anyone else opposed to these vehicles in the parks.

I want to know where your candidate stands on this issue.

[ParticipatoryDem]

98. Then why not ban the millions of cars on the same roads as snowmobiles?

If the snowmobiles are as clean and quiet as cars on the same roads then why ban them?

[HuckleB]

126. You really ought to read the studies on this matter.

It's quite clear that you have not done so, as all you offer is the same spin over and over and over again. It's not a spin that actually addresses the studies, by the way, so I'm actually asking you to get real.

[ParticipatoryDem]

99. Why not let people make up their own minds?

If you refuse to believe that the new snowmobiles are clean and quiet then it's because you refuse to believe the truth. The world is no longer flat.

[oasis]

105. Do you think that Hillary would think it a good idea too? You had high

aspirations for her in the Giulliani thread. Please, no sarcasm this time.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

62. No WAY!

I just signed that petition a few weeks ago. That was one of my biggest pet peeves. Besides the pollution, those machines terrify the animals and also harm their health.

[ParticipatoryDem]

97. Do you not understand that the new snowmobiles are clean and quiet?

Please read up on the new machines before repeating the old data.

[mac56]

119. Do you not understand that you come across like a one-note piano?

Constant repetition doesn't make something true.

[ParticipatoryDem]

122. Some people keep arguing about snowmobiles being loud and dirty

The new four-strokes are not loug and dirty. Repeating that they are does not make it true. I feel these people just need educated and sometime repetition is the only way.

[mac56]

133. Repetition is annoying.

It's also what people resort to when they have no solid proof.

[ParticipatoryDem]

144. People keep repeating that the new snowmobiles are still dirty

They are NOT. It's what people resort to when they have no other good reason to ban snowmobiles. The Democratic party is supposed to be about INCLUSION not banning an activity simply because you don't like it.

The is no excuse to ban cleaner and quieter snowmobiles. If you don't like them fine but don't ban harmless activities of others. That's what facist wingers do to gays and other people that do things they don't like.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ParticipatoryDem]

96. Tell me smokie

How much do you know about the new clean and quiet four-stroke snowmobiles?

[WildThang]

68. can you give me that number?

I need to ask them something. thanks!

[nomaco-10]

69. Yeah, it's all true....

Dean to unleash hellish forces of snowmobiles to defile and blight the landscape of Yellowstone National Park. Then I heard he was going to turn the Washington Monument into a Taco Bell right after he reverses any legislation currently in action to stop strip mining in Kentucky.

[ParticipatoryDem]

94. More trash talk

Have you seen or heard any of the new four-stroke snowmobiles? They are most likely quieter and claener than your car or truck.

[OneBlueSky]

80. if true, this is another strike against Dean, imo . . .

assuming, for the sake of discussion, that it IS true, it gives me one more reason to feel uncomfortable with Dean . . . there's no reason to allow all that noise and pollution into one of the few (and getting fewer) semi-pristine environments left in this country, just so a few Skidoo jockeys can get their jollies . . . "to hell with everyone else, I just wanna FEEL that machine beween my legs at 40 miles an hour!" . . . there are other ways that these folks can get their rocks off without violating Mother Nature . . . it's NOT NICE to violate Mother Nature!!! . . . :hippie:

again, assuming this is true, it seems that every time Dean opens his mouth lately, I think less and less of his positions and less and less of him as a candidate . . .

[ibegurpard]

84. Did you even READ half the replies to this thread?

Thought not.

[ParticipatoryDem]

93. You are mistaken about noise and pollution

The new snowmobiles are clean and quiet and make those concerns moot. The approved snowcoaches are many times noiser and dirtier than the new snowmobiles. You are working with the old notion of snowmobiles being loud and dirty.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

102. fuck yuppies and their snowmobiles

Yeah, that's what we need more of in our parks, rich kids on snowmobiles. This is why I don't want trust fund kids like Dean in goverment - no f!!king clue!

[ParticipatoryDem]

118. Not yuppies...families. Renting a snowmobile is cheaper than snowcoach

We are talking families here that want to see the park in Winter. Most do not want to ride for eight hours in a smelly and noisy snowcoach and would prefer to see the park on a snowmobile that is clean and quiet. Why not let these families use the safe and clean vehicle of their choice?

Remember, they only ride on the same roads as all the other vehicles do in the Summer.

[maxanne]

103. and you keep saying the same thing

over and over without furnishing any proof. Constant repetition won't make something true.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

112. Please tell me this is bullshite?

I admit it, I took the bait in my previous post. But this is bullshite, right?

[Jack_Dawson]

114. Clark: Fighting for our Soldiers. Dean: Fighting for Snowmobiles?

Say it ain't so...

Is this really the guy "rallying the base"?

[ibegurpard]

117. It ain't so.

But you knew that already if you've read this far.

[Patriot_Spear]

130. It's not true -morover you can hear it for yourself.

This Q appeared on C-SPAN- he said he'd let the experts at the Park Service decide this.

[TexasSissy]

115. Bush will be glad to hear that Dean agrees with him on that.

After all, anything for a bucko, eh, Deanio?

You see, drilling for oil can be done in an environmentally friendly way. Drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge to get 30 years of oil makes more sense than raising the EPA for SUVs, which would provide 100 years of oil. And snowmobiles ain't as bad as they say. The bears love 'em. Bring 'em on!

[markus]

124. Pro-gun, pro-snowmobile

Heck, I'm beginning to think that I might not have to spend all my time accross the river working for Dean in Minnesota. Any candidate who is pro-shooting-sports and pro-snowmobile is already going to give the North Dakota GOP nightmares. People who vote Republican in this state vote on Taxes and Guns.

The real hurdle will be convincing them the Bush Tax Cut was really the Bush Local Tax Hike, but 1) taking guns and consumptive sports generally off the table makes that easier and 2) we need to break the GOP monopoly on the tax issue (by exposing it as a lie) anyway.

I don't snowmobile. I don't see the attraction of it (but this is based on living a block from a popular lake between the bars and the gas station). If they were as quiet as cars (and ridden responsibly) I don't see the problem.

[HuckleB]

125. Nice hoax thread.

Thanks for the usual snowmobile spin, and for the humor of trying to attach it to a Dem candidate.

The Clinton study was incredibly thorough, including all types of vehicles, while the Bush turnaround was pure politics, as its own study corroborated the findings of the Clinton study. The judge declared this reality as true and made the Bush turnaround null and void, as it should be.

Snowmobiles have no place in Yellowstone. The science has made this clear.

By the way, the only thing Dean has on his site regarding this issue is in opposition of your claim...

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_policy_environment_nationalparks

[HuckleB]

128. New, 'cleaner' snowmobiles pollute more than older models!

"A new generation of snowmobiles, approved for use in Yellowstone National Park after being promoted as cleaner and quieter, emit more pollution than models produced two years ago, according to testing data from the Environmental Protection Agency."

http://www.greatfallstribune.com/news/stories/20030904/localnews/188822.html

[ParticipatoryDem]

137. The EPA DID NOT TEST the new four-strokes

The EPA did not test the new four-strokes. The so-called "dirtier" sleds the EPA tested were two-strokes.

The four-strokes are cleaner and quieter than the snowcoaches that are still allowed in the park. Please answer me why a snowmobile that is cleaner and quieter than the snowcoaches should not be allowed while the snowcoaches are allowed?

Can you answer this simple question?

[mac56]

139. You don't have any proof, do you?

nm

[Patriot_Spear]

129. This is not true.

Dean took this very question at one of the NH townhall meetings at the end of the Q & A session- said he would rely on the expert advice of the Park Service.

[bitchkitty]

132. Very misleading headline -

that he'll "fight" to allow snowmobiles, when that's not what he said at all.

[bigtree]

143. two statements on snowmobiles in Yellowstone

Here's Gov. Dean on the Bush reversal. Not bad.

The Next Hundred Years: Forging a Strong Environmental Policy to Take Our Natural Resources Back
http://www.ilgreenparty.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=328

"In Yellowstone and Grand Teton National Parks, the Administration overturned a rule proposed after years of discussion with scientists and the public - a rule phasing out snowmobiles in those two parks. (There are other parks where snowmobiling is not a problem.) The Bush Administration made a deal with the snowmobile industry and blocked the rule. That's not leadership. We can do better." -HD

Here's Sen. Kerry. Direct.

"Honor the solitude and beauty of wilderness areas and our National Parks by keeping snowmobiles and jet skis out of Yellowstone and other sensitive areas, and by honestly addressing visitor and wildlife needs in our National Parks" -John Kerry
http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/enviros/plan.html

[ParticipatoryDem]

146. His staffer told me he will support the cleaner and quieter snowmobiles

And he should since they are less harmful than the coaches that all the environmental groups approved. It's unreasonable to continue the bigotry and hatred of snowmobilers now that they are cleaning up their act.

[mac56]

147. You promised us a name.

nm

[curse10]

134. Snowmobiles don't belong in Yellowstone

I sincerely hope that Dean is not truly for this-- if he is, it's worse than I thought.

[ParticipatoryDem]

141. Why do snowcoaches belong in Yellowstone if the snowmobiles are cleaner?

It is a fact that the new four-stroke snowmobiles are cleaner and quieter than the noisy and smelly snowcoaches. The EPA will get around to providing the data to back it up but if you want to see where the industry tested the output then go to the NSMA site www.snowmobile.org

[MaineDem]

135. Vermont and midwest?

Many snowmobilers here in the rest of the northeast, as well.

Regardless, I think this is a bad move on Dean's part. I wish he didn't have this view.

[mac56]

136. He doesn't.

This is a smear campaign. Read above.

[ParticipatoryDem]

142. No it is not a smear. I am ALL FOR CLEAN snowmobiles in Yellowstone

After all they ONLY ride on the roads where the snowcoaches, cars, truck and others ride. It was a smokey issue in the past but not now.

[maddezmom]

145. so did you post the name? if not this thread is a waste of time

[Moderator]

148. Locking....

This is inflammatory.


DU Moderator