Is Diebold going to be our standard excuse for every loss?

[theboss]

I knew that if Hackett lost, there would be a dozen threads on this.

What I find interesting is that they didn't use Diebold machines.

I'm still amazed that he got as close as he did. But the real test is 2006. Was this a fluke or a trend?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

1. It already is.

What I don't understand is why haven't the people who really believe that started planning an armed revolution yet. I mean, if you think things are that corrupt and hopeless, it's time to either fight or leave.

[RageFist]

3. I think people are concerned...

but for some reeason can't get angry enough to coalesce and take action...maybe they need a smoking gun? (I say this assuming there isn't one)

[blondeatlast]

28. I think they aren't able to elucidate a course of action.

They have a legitimate beef, but they don't seem to try to combat it in any meaningful way, and they certainly don't express it to the rest of us.

So they target threads about the upcoming elections and kill them. Irritating, and it doesn't do anything to rally me to their cause.

Welcome to DU, btw. :toast:

[carnie_sf]

5. My thoughts exactly

[Lexingtonian]

16. It's defeatism/escapism/magical thinking with an excuse

I don't bother to even argue with people of the stripe.

It's a way of avoiding the reality of a Republican-leaning majority, on the one hand. And avoiding of action to overturn the felon disenfranchisement laws that are the root of bad decisions and practices and exploitable flaws and foolish standards to elections, on the other.

[seabeyond]

2. lose trust that is it, it is gone. see them steal, you know they will

have no ability for accountibility or proof, what do you want. tell me, how i can trust.

computer go outs because of airconditioning. my computer repug non conspiracy husband syid, ya right.

i really dont get how you can trust.

[wli]

4. it's not the result, it's the big huge red flags signalling fraud

i.e. the "humidity" and highly suspicious final district count.

[Junkdrawer]

6. In Ohio, Independent, Bipartisan Election Boards are needed...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1982017

Partisan computer voting companies is only one way of stealing elections. The WHOLE VOTING SYSTEM needs reform from top to bottom.

[rocktivity]

7. It's our mandate to win. Hackett has handed us our political capital.

Keep in mind that Hackett came within 3.5% of winning a district that is 70% Repub. Do you honestly think he would have fared just as badly if the district had been 60 or 50 percent Repub? Helloooooo---SOME OF THOSE REPUBS VOTED FOR HIM!!!

It's not a pipe dream or a theory anymore. We now know what it takes to win--a no-holds-barred candidate and agile grass roots support. If we get together and make the effort to multiply what Hackett did by fifty states, we'll win a LOT more often than we'll lose.

I pray that Howard Dean offers Hackett a job before he decides to re-enlist. If he really wants to do what's best for his country, he'll stay here, energize the base and run for something in 2006.

Hackett has just dropped a sack of political captial into our laps. Do we invest it in 2006, or do we wander away?

:headbang:
rocknation

[Schema Thing]

8. Yeah. You got a problem with that?

Live free or Die Bold, baby! :hippie:


Seriously though, I think it was both a fluke (the dude is cartoonishly perfect for our cause) and a trend (Ohio was ready to hear, even welcoming of, criticism of Bush, and so goeth America), and a fluke that will drive a trend (America is finally ready to get the message, but all the more so when the messenger is cartoonishly perfect).

[Talismom]

9. Yes, when all evidence is that the democrats are winning until

the last few hours, and everyone is voting into the ether with no way to check the counting, and the owners of the software pledge to put the Repukes into office, etc., etc, etc.

To not question the veracity of the count is simply being naive and in denial.

Getting closer than anyone expected does not impress me. They're all too happy to allow that, as long as their candidate still wins. To win in spite of all their $$$$ and influence, because the voters are fired up and the votes were fairly counted--that would be impressive.

Those of us who do question it have continuously take grief for doing so and continue to do so because we care about this "democracy", such as it is these days.

[bearfan454]

21. Very well put. n/t

[Talismom]

10. Yes, when all evidence is that the democrats are winning until

the last few hours, and everyone is voting into the ether with no way to check the counting, and the owners of the software pledge to put the Repukes into office, etc., etc, etc.

To not question the veracity of the count is simply being naive and in denial.

Getting closer than anyone expected does not impress me. They're all too happy to allow that, as long as their candidate still wins. To win in spite of all their $$$$ and influence, because the voters are fired up and the votes were fairly counted--that would be impressive.

Those of us who do question it have continuously take grief for doing so and continue to do so because we care about this "democracy", such as it is these days.

[kevsand]

11. Of course, that's the reason.

Otherwise, it would be our fault for not running a smart campaign, or the fault of the people who voted for not being raised properly. It has to be the machines, even if there was a paper trail. Myself, I prefer to blame society. We're doooommed! Dooooommmed, I tell you! (Where's the smiley for Death with his sickle?)

As to Hackett, he did an amazing thing, and yes, it can be a harbinger for 2006 if we learn from it. BTW, even a cursory glance at the totals for Clermont County (which is where the big blackout was) show that the numbers after the crash are entirely consistent with the numbers from earlier in the evening. This was the only county still outstanding for most of the night, and it is Schmidt's home base. I would have to look at it precinct by precinct to be sure, but I don't see anything at first glance that couldn't be explained by reasons as simple as geography and demographics.

[beyurslf]

12. The story needs to be look how close he got in a district where

he should have had no chance at all. This is a harbinger of things to come and I think the Repubs are worried.

[Touchdown]

13. Been buying into the GOP talking points, have you?

"Conspiracy Theorists, all of those democRATS who question that our glorious leader with 47% approval rating won 53% of the vote."

As long as a GOP controlled company, and their private source coded, easily hacked into central tabulators are a factor in future US elections, then I don't see how can not be at least a question on legitimacy/transparency.

I guess you'd rather dodge at the windmills of "smart campaigning", "appealing to the homophobic, women controlling white guys", "Move to the center", "embrace fundamentalists" yada, yada, yada, that got us these all these majority victories ever since 2000 when these machines started showing up.

[blondeatlast]

29. I'm willing to accept that the voting machines are partly to blame, but

:wtf: can we do about them?

If someone is willing to come up with some action to counteract the influence, I'm willing to act on it. I'm a pragmatist; I like toexplore solutions. Massive early vote by mail drives, maybe?

Moaning about how there is no chance in 2006 or 2008 because of the voting machines just doesn't inspire me to take up the cause, for some bizaare reason.

[foo_bar]

14. paranoia is the state of not knowing

When you don't know how a computer works, you attribute magical properties to it: "the computer lied!" or "it hates me!".

When you don't know how an automobile works, you always assume the engine is the source of the problem, because it's the only part of the car you can name.

When you don't know the Iowa Caucus was a primary without voting machines, you claim Dean was Diebolded by Kerry.

Ignorance is bliss, unless you're on the receiving end.

[Junkdrawer]

19. In my experience, the more you know about computers, the more...

you distrust private firms providing the vote tabulation systems.

[foo_bar]

23. I'm with you on that

There's no (good) reason for election software not to be open source and released to the public domain; the open source community does a far better job of finding security holes than, say, Microsoft's R&D. Proprietary software in general looks to protect "trade secrets", which is incompatible with a transparent democracy.

But it's a bit of a non sequitur, considering yesterday's election was as low-tech as it gets. Florida 2000 didn't require a single transistor, just lots of party hacks and poorly designed ballots.

[Junkdrawer]

26. It's a total system thing alright...

Take Ohio. The SOS can fire anyone he/she pleases from local Election Boards. See my post above. If party hacks can take the ballots from view and simply announce a total, no system, computerized or manual, is fair.

I've been following this issue closely since Nov. 2002. At first, I was an early advocate of what is now known as the Rush Holt solution: mandatory paper trail, random audits. However, having seen the total system up close and personal for going on to three years, I've come around to the Paper Ballots Publically Counted position - the Canadian System.

IMHO, computers simply introduce too much temptation for fraud. And that being said, no system, computerized or manual, can be considered fraud proof as long as public apathy prevails. If you rely on experts to count your vote, your right to vote will be taken away.

[flpoljunkie]

15. Read this and tell me you still have confidence in Ohio machine tally.

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/7/31/145449/155

Unfortunately, most Tabulators work (can be programmed) the same as GEMS (Diebold) in that they can be manipulated (hacked).That includes Sequoia, ES&S, Triad. So even if they're voting punch cards, optical scan, DRE - whatever method, all votes are counted on Central Tabulators. Big problem...

What's perhaps even worse is that it's not just the central tabulator that's vulnerable. With at least the optical scanners (and possibly DREs too) it's an executable program on the Memory Cards that can do all the damage--the scary thing being that this program can make simultaneous changes in both the central tabulator and the individual scanners at the same time--so they spit out identical (false) results.

And it's maybe not just Diebold that has this "feature." It's possible that this Memory Card "feature" exists on Sequoia, ES&S, etc. as well.

by jen on Sun Jul 31st, 2005 at 12:31:07 PDT

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/7/31/145449/155
________________

If we cannot trust that our votes are counted accurately in what is left of this democracy, some may say why bother to frickin' vote? I await the report from the Baker-Carter Commission on Federal Elections due out September 19th. It is our only hope, and frankly I am damn worried with James Baker, Dubya's fixer, as Co-Chair.

[iconoclastNYC]

17. When we only gain 2 seats in the US House and lose a Senate seat

Despite a Democrat "Perfect Storm" that dwarfs what the Republican had going for them in 1994 (Newt's Revolution) maybe people will open thier eyes to the evidence.

We have a major problem with our elections. You can fuck with them. If you control the statehouse, you can REALLY fuck them.

It's not conspiracy theory. It's fact. Provisional ballots were supposed to make it better and made it worse. This is fact. We dont know what code lies behind the electronic machines. FACT. There are about 20 other ways that you can screw with the vote count and it's fact.

The reason they can get away with it is becasue each tactic only nudges the vote a fraction of a precent....taken together, in close elections, it's effective.

[Igel]

18. Yes, it will be.

I lost two hours today. Damn Diebold and their cheating digital clocks! (I just know that Delay got those two hours.)

[Up2Late]

20. It's not the "excuse," it is the reason and the Problem.

:mad: Unfortunately, we need a plan to solve this problem and we need Hard evidence before going off "half-cocked."

Without "Hard Evidence," quickly or better, before the election, the ReThugs easily make us look like a bunch of "Nuts" or "crybabies."

[Talismom]

22. The report Conyers put out on the 2004 election is chock-full of

evidence to those who are willing to read and think for themselves and aren't afraid of being called "conspiracy theorists"! As far as I'm concerned, anyone who a)won't look at the evidence or b)will look at it and still remain in denial about how bad the situation is is a "coincidence theorist" and I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell to them~

[burythehatchet]

24. what a ridiculous statement

what the hell is the different whether its diebold or ess or triad or whateverthefuck stealyourvotesystem. Do you really think they would say "ooo, they're on to us, lets have a fair election for a change"

Wake up, smell the coffee, and get real....good god.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

25. Good point. But Diabold did not lose this election

The real point is, in the heartland of freeperville and neocon thought, where people are actually debating teaching creationism as science, WE GOT 48% OF THE VOTE, and that is truly fantastic.

Does anyone on the ultra right really believe that the writing is NOT on the wall?

[melissinha]

27. How about get some more Governors

I also think it is important to get Democrats in positions of power that govern election procedures, I know that state legislature needs to set standards... but its the people who impliment and allocate (or not) machines that also need to be replaced with decent democrats...

Frankly, I hope BLackwell gets dethroned. As Taft's administration is getting soiled... this may not be hard to do... We need Democratic state leadership! IN addition, registration efforts need to done way in advance, allowing no "misappropriation" excuses to be valid.

[elperromagico]

30. It's evidence of the distrust of Republicans,

a distrust which (I'm sure you'll agree) is not at all unfounded.

Even those who believe that last night's election results - and the election results of 11/2/04 - were completely untouched by electronic tinkering cannot deny that a system where minority polling places have antiquated voting machines prone to malfunction, where "suspected felons" are knocked off the voter rolls without notification, where roadblocks are thrown up in predominantly Democratic districts, and where eligible voters are challenged and forced to submit provisional ballots is a system in need of serious reform.

That's without even addressing the issue of voting machines without auditable paper trails.

[blondeatlast]

32. That's the vote tampering I'm more concerned with, frankly.

It has continued unabated for years, and with the Right's move to disenfranchose (in all its meanings) anyone who doesn't serve theirinterests, it needs to stop.

A democracy cannot survive a willing voter waiting 8 hours in the rain with no child care.

[IndianaGreen]

31. Voting irregularities have been a GOP hallmark since 2000

Holding the voting report from Clermont County while waiting to see how many votes were needed to win, while an election official is blaming the humidity for affecting the ballots, should have raise red flags among all rational persons.

We have to take control of the voting process. We have to be as aggressive as it is legally possible to make sure that there is no ballot stuffing going on. We must also challenge the voting systems that, five years after Bush v. Gore, are still non-standard within the states.

We need to raise Hell about the GOP practice of changing voting locations at the last minute and, lastly, we should all work for election reform that includes proportional representation.

[theboss]

33. That's also been a hallmark of the US since 1788 or so

We've never had a perfect election. . . .ever. (And, frankly, I'm more pissed that Democrats don't seem to cheat with the panache we once did. Okay, I kid. But not really).

I do agree that election reform is necessary, but I'm not sure the proper way to do it.

What I do believe is this. The major issues of allocation of resources and differing standards within states needs to be addressed. And I don't think we do that when we make the Diebold bogeyman the sole focus.

[MadHound]

34. I can't answer your question, however

I find it outrageous that we are using a voting system that is so open to abuse, and that has no verifiable way of double checking the results. I also find it highly suspicious when results from these suspect machines miraculously fall in favor of the 'Pugs, when exit polls, previously 100% correct, show the election going for Kerry.

I also find the lack of double checks, verification, and oversight disturbing. Instead, let us go back to the most accurate, secure, safe method of voting ever developed in this country, paper ballots, counted by a bipartisand election committee. Anything less is selling the American people short.

[d_b]

35. Should've made a witty poll.

[rhett o rick]

36. Ohio politics is rotten thru and thru. Why should we trust the results? n

[bearfan454]

37. 52 - 48, 51 - 49, 53 - 47 percent BULLSHIT !

The pukes are always going to make it close so it is believeable. There are WAY MORE of us than there are of them. Our Democracy is finished if we don't get rid of electronic voting. Do you hear that elected Democrat leaders ? DO YOU GODDAMNIT ? FUCKING DO SOMETHING ! I am so sick of this pussy ass bullshit of our leaders doing nothing. Anybody with me on this ?

Sorry for the rant folks. I'm pissed as hell at the do nothing Dems. Conyers and Pelosi I commend.

[theboss]

39. If there are more of us....

Why have we only won three presidential elections since 1968?
Why have we made no progress in regaining the House since we lost it in '94?
Why did our minority status in the Senate only grow?
Why have we steadily lost governorships since 1990?
Why have the majority of state legislatures gone Republican in recent years?
Why has New York City (for God's sake...New York City) elected a Republican mayor three straight times?
How did Swartzeneger end up in charge of California (for God's sake...California)?
Why is FoxNews beating all the other cable channels combined?

I'm sorry. I think that there are some serious questions about the way we conduct elections in this country. I'm not naive.

But to think that Democrats would hold the White House and Congress and control the states if not for the dreaded Diebold is ignoring some pretty scary trends over the last 30 years.

Look, we are a minority party now. And that can change very quickly if we are smart. But to think that we are not is simply going to lead to greater disaster.

[bearfan454]

38. kick