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How important is the 3rd place finish in NH ?

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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 05:19 PM
Original message
How important is the 3rd place finish in NH ?
At the present time, the polls are showing almost a three-way tie between Lieberman, Edwards, and Clark. If Lieberman finishes third, it's pretty certain that will give him the impetus to continue his race. If he finishes 4th or lower, he will need to re-consider, in my opinion.

If Edwards finishes third, above Clark and Lieberman, then he obviously has continuing momentum from his 2nd place finish in Iowa and is set up for next weeks primaries. If he finishes 4th or lower, he, unlike Lieberman, is still in the running at least until after the next round of primaries.

Clark needs to finish third to have the credibility that he desires to continue his race. To finish third, behind Dean and Kerry, but ahead of Lieberman and Edwards, would be a victory of sorts to the General. However, if he finishes 4th or below, he will have no momentum going into the next round and that could make for a very difficult road for him next week.
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Jack_Dawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Important according to the talking heads
I'm not sure tho.
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returnable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 05:22 PM
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2. I disagree.
4th place is a mark of viability for Clark. It's his first contest, and he's had to fight off candidates with big Iowa bounces.

And you cannot discount the support (and money) he already has on the ground in the February 3rd states.

His NH fundraising train is about to hit another $2 million. That'll keep him moving one way or the other.

Just like the 3rd place plummet in Iowa didn't kill Dean, a 4th place finish won't end Clark.

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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 05:23 PM
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3. Why all the interest in Clark? I thought you supported Dean?
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Actually, I'm still a Kerry supporter....
But I like Clark and Dean also. Edwards ain't bad either. :) But I'm torn as to whether I continue to support Kerry or throw my support to Clark. I think he is good for our Party.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. Clark and Edwards Will Win at Least One State on Feb 3
They're leading in OK and SC, respectively, and I don't think either state is going to swing to Kerry or Dean. Only a poor showing in NH and the Feb 3 states would kill the Edwards or Clark campaign.

Lieberman is a different issue. A poor 5th-place finish might just sink him. A candidate from CT should have some draw in NH, even with two other favorite sons. The "Liebermania" thing is ridiculous. I think he's the next Gephardt.
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 05:27 PM
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5. Important for Edwards; critical for Clark and Lieberman; fatal for Dean
Edwards could surivive a fourth or fifth place finish, especially if the gap between third and fifth isn't all that great.

Lieberman probably needs to finish at least third to keep going, although I would be surprised if he dropped out before 2/3 regardless of how he does in New Hampshire.

If Clark finishes behind Edwards, he could be trouble in the South, especially since the press is just dying to narrow this down to a Kerry-Edwards contest.

And if Dean finishes third, he's toast.
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kentuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Sounds about right, dolstein..
If Clark finishes behind Edwards, it's going to be difficult for him.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 06:00 PM
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8. I Disagree
1. This is Wes Clark's 1st election ever.

2.Kerry, Dean, & Lieberman are all New Englanders, with advantage.

This thing is far from over. Regardless of where we finish, we will compete next week.
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TexasSissy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
9. Clark is not dead with a 4th place finish (thought Fox would like it be so
But he needs a 3rd place finish for momentum into the southern states.

4th place finish - he has the resources and support and endorsements to hit the southern states, anyway, but you're right in that it'd be more difficult w/o a 3rd place finish.

I don't think Edwards has the $$ to go forward past SC even if he were to get a 3rd place finish in NH. This works to Clark's advantage, of course.

The real question: How will Kerry do in the south with the momentum of a NH win (if he wins)?
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. Here's my read. It's long, Was it's own thread...
This year the NH Primary is shaping up to be unusually indecisive, regardless of who wins, or to an extent, by how much. There are too many uncertainties about the race heading out of New Hampshire, where each candidate will be carrying different liabilities. The results will help some, and hurt others, but it is conceivable that none of the actual contenders will be totally knocked out of real contention before the Feb. 3rd results are also in.

Here is why. For one thing, it is a tightly packed field. The overall winner will have less than an overwhelming plurality, and it is virtually certain that the winner of NH's primary will be Kerry, or possibly Dean, and both of those gentlemen are New England native sons from neighboring States. Each has always been expected to do well in NH (when people weren't worried about one campaign or the other totally collapsing). A relatively strong showing in NH for either does not by itself prove that he can run strongly in other regions also. It is true that Dean and Kerry would be hurt if they don't finish first or second. Kerry almost certainly will be in the top two, and Dean likely as well. I doubt Kerry could survive coming in third, but that is extremely unlikely to happen. Dean possibly could.

The next tier of probabilities has Clark and Edwards battling for third, with Lieberman an outside chance to slip in there. For Lieberman, he can't afford to finish 4th. That would put him behind two other New Englanders, plus one "outsider". Lieberman doesn't have much money, and he hasn't waged an active campaign beyond NH. Lieberman would heavily bleed whatever support he had after NH, under that scenario. If Clark, Edwards, and Lieberman ended up very tightly bunched in low double digits, and Lieberman finished fourth ahead of either Clark or Edwards, the "5th place" finisher would be wounded perhaps, but still alive. Neither Clark nor Edwards are from New England, and both can play to specific strengths on Feb. 3rd. Edwards could still concentrate on trying to win his neighboring South Carolina, or finish a strong second there. Clark could also, though Edwards would likely have a clear edge in SC if Clark finishes behind Edwards in NH. However Clark has definite strength in Oklahoma and New Mexico, and Arizona also, relative to Edwards.

Why would any of this matter to a Candidate finishing 4th or 5th? Aren't there only three tickets out of NH? Not necessarily this time around. This is a very unusual election cycle. For one thing Kerry has not been the front runner very long, highly negative attention to his record is just beginning to hit the media now. He could easily stumble as a result of that. Plus there are doubts as to how well Kerry will do in the South. Dean may emerge from NH wounded, but he still has a national organization and money. The same holds true for Clark. Both Dean and Clark have laid groundwork to follow up in the Feb. 3rd States. While Dean may have more momentum than Clark coming out of NH, the follow up terrain is generally more favorable to Clark. Both of those men have developed national campaigns, are already active in the follow up states, and have war chests on hand to compete there with. For Kerry, Lieberman and Edwards, to varying degrees, that is much less true. Plus, with a dramatically sped up cycle of contests, there is little time available for them to do catch up organizing in the states that immediately follow. They may raise money to hire staff for example, but those staff will be new to the campaigns, and will need to be integrated into them. That's A tall order for a "one week campaign".

Plus, since inevitably some candidates will lose some steam on Feb. 3rd, there is the question of what will happen to their support. Will it hold firm? For similar though varying reasons, Clark, Dean, and Kucinich draw on overlapping pools of "anti-war" anti politics as usual voters. Should one or two of them falter, the third may regain momentum as that constituency support shifts toward him. Because of the different advantages and disadvantages Dean and Clark will have heading into the states after NH, it is hard to be certain which one more likely might subsequently benefit, regardless of how they finish against each other in the NH results. Clark could conceivably collapse from coming in 4th or 5th, or alternately, Dean could hit a wall, since expectations once were so high for him as a front runner, and if he can't impress in his neighboring state of NH, finishing ahead of Clark there might provide only fleeting comfort. So though it is possible both men could have disappointing NH finishes, one might still gain important support from the other's followers further down the road, that might not play out untill after Feb. 3rd, or it could happen in anticipation of those results. Then of course there is the question of where Lieberman's support would go on Feb 3rd and after, if he falls out of contention after NH. Unlikely it will go to Dean, cases can be made though for either Clark, Edwards, or Kerry getting some Lieberman votes, each for different reasons.

Come Tuesday night, if the spreads between candidates is not tightly bunched, that will make it more likely that two or more could fall out of viable contention. But a one to three percentage spread seperating second tier finishers in a very crowded field, with strong regional favorites finishing at the top, simply may not be conclusive enough to knock virtually anyone out of the running, no matter where they might come in between second and fifth. Such uncertainty would be short lived, however. Prospects should become much clearer after February 3rd, when more candidates begin to run out of excuses for continuing poor results.

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texasmom Donating Member (490 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-26-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Agreed-
about the point spreads. It depends on how much space separates those between 3rd and 5th and/or 2nd and 5th If those finishes are close then it doesn't mean that much--if the candidates who finish there look strong across the south and southwest.
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