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Expert states that 60-80% embryos lost naturally w/o mother's knowledge

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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:09 PM
Original message
Expert states that 60-80% embryos lost naturally w/o mother's knowledge
The doctor in this article states that most embroys, around the 7-day old stage, are naturally expelled from a woman's body and there is no way she could know of their existence.

He poses the question - are the so-called right-to-lifers going to rush to rescue these embroys, which, by their standards, are the equivalent of any adult life? And how would such a rescue be atempted?

______

http://www.reason.com/rb/rb122204.shtml

Is Heaven Populated Chiefly by the Souls of Embryos?
Harvesting stem cells without tears
Ronald Bailey


What are we to think about the fact that Nature (and for believers, Nature's God) profligately creates and destroys human embryos? John Opitz, a professor of pediatrics, human genetics, and obstetrics and gynecology at the University of Utah, testified before the President's Council on Bioethics that between 60 and 80 percent of all naturally conceived embryos are simply flushed out in women's normal menstrual flows unnoticed. This is not miscarriage we're talking about. The women and their husbands or partners never even know that conception has taken place; the embryos disappear from their wombs in their menstrual flows. In fact, according to Opitz, embryologists estimate that the rate of natural loss for embryos that have developed for seven days or more is 60 percent. The total rate of natural loss of human embryos increases to at least 80 percent if one counts from the moment of conception. About half of the embryos lost are abnormal, but half are not, and had they implanted they would probably have developed into healthy babies.

So millions of viable human embryos each year produced via normal conception fail to implant and never develop further. Does this mean America is suffering a veritable holocaust of innocent human life annihilated? Consider the claim made by right-to-life apologists like Robert George, a Princeton University professor of jurisprudence and a member of the President's Council on Bioethics, that every embryo is "already a human being." Does that mean that if we could detect such unimplanted embryos as they leave the womb, we would have a duty to rescue them and try to implant them anyway?

"If the embryo loss that accompanies natural procreation were the moral equivalent of infant death, then pregnancy would have to be regarded as a public health crisis of epidemic proportions: Alleviating natural embryo loss would be a more urgent moral cause than abortion, in vitro fertilization, and stem-cell research combined," declared Michael Sandel, a Harvard University government professor, also a member of the President's Council on Bioethics.

As far as I know, bioconservatives like Robert George do not advocate the rescue of naturally conceived unimplanted embryos. But why not? In right-to-life terms, normal unimplanted embryos are the moral equivalents of a 30-year-old mother of three children.
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yep. I kept mistaking miscarriages for bad menstrual cycles
until I went into the doctor.

I know that this happens in well more cases than are reported (like I said, I didn't know and I'm like the princess and the pea when it comes to my body).

Good read. Thanks for posting.

Oh - and problem mentioned above was corrected and I know have a wonderful 6-year-old son. :)
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DesEtoiles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. yes-thanks to some md intervention I have a beautiful daughter!
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Yes happened to me too
I was about 3 or 4 days late. Had very bad period with a lot of cramps when I got it. I had my regular check up few weeks later and the doctor asked me out of the blue if I had had a late period that month. When I told him yes, he said from his examination, it "looked" like I might have had a very early miscarriage. He said something about the "color" looked about right. I have no clue what he meant by that. I can now say with that knowledge it probably happened more than once, too.

Do these Right to Life people even KNOW about any of this?



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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:42 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. I can explain that one for you
When a woman is pregnant, her cervix turns bluish (not an extreme color blue but easily distinguished by the trained eye). I'm not honestly sure how long after the pregnancy ends that the cervix retains the bluish color but I would suspect it would stay that way until the beta hcg (a hormone of pregnancy and the one that is measured by home and professional pregnancy tests) is completely gone from a womans system.

Yeah, those anti-abortion types have pretty glaring holes in their philosophy, don't they?
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. Probably had health insurance
During the 5 year period when this kept happening to me, I didn't have any.
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
2. Is God out of His mind in letting embryos die?
The Bushbots may consider legislation to stop this.

Very informative article. Thank you.
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mom cat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
32. God is murdering babies!!
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KyndCulture Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Personally, I'm Pro-BORN.... the rest of this is just silly. nt.
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Raiden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. "Pro-BORN" - I like it!
If you don't mind, I may start using it :toast:
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is why fundie pro-lifers should support birth control
Putting women on the pill or giving them emergency contraception reduces the chance of them producing and flushing an embryo.
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. Maybe they'd like to care for America's used tampons and sanitary napkins?
I'd suggest that women of America send them to their favorite Anti-Choice organization, but I respect our postal employees too much.
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Binka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. I'm Mailing Randall Terry A New Box Of Terrorist Tampons/Pads
He can use them in his sermon as the TRUE EVILDOERS. Them he must demand that all pro-choice women cease from using them ever!

Put these fucking bitches back on the rag LITERALLY and see how they like it. Maybe they won't like some one else making personal decisions about THEIR body.
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. Time to picket the Churches
and protest God's aborting of his children. :sarcasm:

Mz Pip
:dem:
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. This is how ridiculous the right wing fanatics have become
They've lost all common sense.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:44 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. You can't lose
what you never had.
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Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
9. We need to ensure that proper respect is paid to all these
dead children.

I think we should organize a campaign to send all used feminine hygeine products of sexually active women to those individuals and organizations that have demonstrated such concern for the lives of these embryos.

That way, the Earthly remains of all such dead children could be disposed of in some sort of respectful fashion in an appropriately religious ritual instead of having to endure the indignity of being flushed down the toilet.

If they can't be saved, they can at least be treated with the dignity and respect that is befitting any dead human being.

Who would be the best people to begin sending our products to?
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. (cough) Seven minutes earlier ...
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Perhaps Focus on the Family
Personal Attention James C. Dobson. Maybe Operation Rescue might be better.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. ROFL
Operation Rescue My Tampon. Oh, too sweet.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. Recommended.

Great head-exploding medication for your unfriendly neighborhood freepers.

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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
15. Hmmm.... this got me thinking....

...enough to head back here for a followup...

What about a farce site to "save the unborn from the 'stealth abortion' holocost"? "Millions of women are having abortions every day" and other such hyperbole.

Make it look real -- steal the look and feel from existing sites, and explain the horror in gory detail. I wonder how far in they would read in before comprehension dawned.

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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Another great post. n/t
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. OMG. It actually ended up on FR.
Someone posted, got banned, and then someone else with too much clout to ban reposted it. If you can stomach it, go watch the contortions they are putting themselves through.

(Link broken on purpose, as per DU -> FR crosslink custom. Paste and handfix.)

http://w ww.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1457282/posts

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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-04-05 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
18. Baby killers all!
:o
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AAARRRGGGHHH Donating Member (265 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Exactly ...
Lock 'em up. We must protect our unborn children.

Actually, I don't blame the mothers. I blame God. Lock God up.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 05:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. I love your username
That would be the infallable God they keep throwing in our face. Or rather what the determine God to be. If I were God, I would be mighty pissed that these pissants are deciding what I think, do and decide.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 06:43 AM
Response to Original message
26. I would guess these figures do not include
the statistics that about 50% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage.

If life is so sacred, then why does god screw up so much?

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
27. How long would it take for the human race to be extinguished
if every embryo turned into a child? Look at Niger for a hint. The Republicans might consider giving a damn about embryos with arms, legs and mouths to feed.
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meganmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
28. This is why I love DU - What a great way to start the day!
:rofl:

Now I can go to work, and hopefully no one will ask me why I am giggling for no reason throughout the day!

Thank you all for your wise insight into this vast problems of millions of lost babies. I never understood the scope of the problem until now!

:D
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jasmeel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
29. Just sent this article to Feminists for life (GAG!)
Eat that Patricia Heaton!!!
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
30. Of my reproductive years, I've had all but about 24 months
of potential life expelled. (Two kids)

I guess that makes me a person with disregard for life starting somewhere around age 13 and repeating every 28 days. :eyes:
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Sparkman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
31. Again, science comes to the rescue, settling the argument for the sane.
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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
33. a rude question
for the churchly minded. Since these embryos have not been baptized, how can they go to heaven, according to church doctrine? Don't they really have to go to Purgatory? But then how do they get out of Purgatory and go to heaven?

Oh, and BTW, since ensoulment happens at fertilization, how does a fertilized egg that later splits into identical twins, obtain two souls, instead of one?
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TNMOM Donating Member (735 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. They'll come up with an answer to that...
crazy though it may be. In my expereince, every time you ask a Christian a prickly question, they always come up with a clever answer. The last-resort answer, if they get stumped, is: "you just have to have FAITH." Here's to the unfaithful!
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Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
35. This is something I argued many years ago ....
Nature takes FAR more 'babies' than mankind ....

I guess it is God's will to make abortions regular events in our lives ....
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-05 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
36. In medical school, we were taught 30% of pregnancies are lost.
A third of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions, otherwise known as miscarriages. In other words, the #1 abortionist is God.
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