Dean is still spinning tall tales on the issue of race

[dolstein]

There's a Dean rally on C-Span right now. He's STILL saying that he's the ONLY white candidate who talking about race. What bullshit! John Edwards talks about race in his stump speech. He talked about it in Iowa. He's talking about it in New Hampshire. And no doubt he'll talk about it in South Carolina too.

[chimpymustgo]

1. I can't watch Dean, but please tell me he's not still telling that lie.

Good grief, Dean - have you no shame?

[maddezmom]

2. saw it

think that gentleman might have been playing Dr.Dean.

[gardenista]

4. That gentleman said to Dean after the event

that his story was "very refreshing" . He took the time to seek Dean out. I think you may have misinterpreted. Just my $.02

[AP]

16. "I'm not presidential material, but I play at it on TV."

[gardenista]

35. Geeeeez, Louise, what is that supposed to mean? nt

.

[AP]

45. Old commercial -- before my time -- "I'm not a doctor...

...but I play one on TV."

[gardenista]

56. Yeah, I remember the commercial. I was just dumbfounded

by the gratuitous tone.

Sigh...

[AP]

58. I just don't like Dean very much.

[TLM]

135. Wow is Edwards grabing his crank in that picture?

Wow not very presidential... I did not think you could make Bush look good in that picture, but putting it next to Edwards grabing his junk seems to have done the trick.

[Edwards4President]

139. Why are you interested enough to even ask about it?

[TLM]

143. Well it is just so unpresidential...

is that the kind of behavior we want to encourage and celebrate??

[AP]

145. YEAAAAARRGGGHHH

I put this picture up yesterday and within an hour I got $500 in donations.

[TLM]

147. So are you saying...

that pictures of young boys grabbing themselves excite Edwards supporters?

[Edwards4President]

150. Well, it clearly has captured your interest . . .

[TLM]

155. Yes, I am very interested in finding out

who was giving money to AP for Edwards because of this picture of a young Edwards grabbing himself.

[AP]

160. You have clearly run out of arguments.

[TLM]

163. Arguments... thought I was asking a question....

after all you're the one who said this got suporters so excited they gave you money.... just wondering why a picture of Edwards grabing himself would inspire such a reaction.


Isn't it fun when someone plays your game of turning everything into an attack or a bullshit accusation? I thought you liked this game.

[AP]

170. Very revealing.

[meisje]

164. You're no pundit, but you play one on DU

?

[MercutioATC]

3. I watched the entire town meeting, and I didn't hear him say that.

I DID hear him talk about race in a way I've not heard any of the other candidates address it, but I didn't hear him say that he was the only candidate addressing race.

[AP]

19. He talks about race in a way I've never heard before:

He talks about how he told the woman who did the hiring in his office to stop hiring women and start hiring white men because there weren't enough of them working for him.

I've NEVER heard race talked about like that until I heard Dean talking about it that way.

(Psst. What he was talking about was anti-male gender discrimination.)

[joshcryer]

25. It's called affirmative action.

But, of course, since you are so anti-Dean, you wouldn't really notice that.

I think that metaphor is extremely well done. A woman hiring another woman because that woman is like her in many ways is the same as a white man hiring a white man because that white man is like him in many ways. It's not racism, it's internal biases that all human beings have.

Dean is pro affirmative action, and that's a good thing.

[Edwards4President]

26. Dean is pro affirmative action when it comes to white women and white men

But he did nothing to advance affirmative action for minorities in his own state when he was governor. And the only way he seems to think of affirmative action now is in the context of how it benefits white people.

I'm not impressed. And I'm disgusted that he's still lying about this issue.

[joshcryer]

27. Sources?

Where does that come from?

[Edwards4President]

33. From Dean himself

The only way Dean seems to be able to talk about race is by describing how he has helped or is planning to help white people.

Q: I recently read a comment that you made where you said that you wanted to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags on their pickup trucks. When I read that comment, I was extremely offended.
Could you explain to me how you plan on being sensitive to needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans, after making a comment of that nature?

DEAN: Sure. Martin Luther King said that it was his dream that the sons of slave holders and the sons of slaves sit down around a table and make common good.

There are 102,000 kids in South Carolina right now with no health insurance. Most of those kids are white. The legislature cut $70 million out of the school system. Most of the kids in the public school system are white. We have had white Southern working people voting Republican for 30 years, and they've got nothing to show for it.

They vote for a president who cut 1 percent of this country's taxpayers' taxes by $26,000, which is more than they make. And I think we need to talk to white Southern workers about how they vote, because when white people and black people and brown people vote together in this country, that's the only time that we make social progress, and they need to come back to the Democratic Party.
*****************************

Q: What is the biggest challenge, in your view, that's facing America's minority communities right now?

DEAN: I think the biggest challenge is to help white audiences understand the plight of minority populations when it comes to race.

Does Dean really believe that the biggest challenge facing America's minority communities is that white people just don't understand them?

[AP]

47. My jaw dropped when I heard Dean say this.

[joshcryer]

49. That does not mean that his pro-affirmative action stance...

...is exclusive to whites like you dishonestly implied.

I don't see what's jaw dropping about what he said. Whites are the majority, of course whites need to understand their biases. This is what blows me away about Dean, he openly says this.

Actual sources, please.

[Edwards4President]

50. What has Dean ever done to advance affirmative action?

[joshcryer]

53. Affirmative action isn't a race issue.

It's a equality issue. Women have benefitted from affirmative action more than any other group. He has selected women and men equally in all his staffing positions as governer, inculding other minorities.

Where has Dean failed with affirmative action?

[Edwards4President]

54. Affirmative action isn't a race issue?

[beaconess]

55. You don't think affirmative action is a race issue?

Oh, I forgot. It's really about trying to provide more opportunities for white people, who never have gotten a fair shake in this world. And, if in broadening opportunities for women, a couple of minorities slip in, all the better.

Right.

[joshcryer]

57. It's about equality for everyone. It's about minorities.

It's about gender. It's about sexual preference.

Hello? Don't you know what affirmative action is?

[beaconess]

59. Umm - yes, I know what affirmative action is

but thanks for the lecture anyway.

[joshcryer]

62. Hey, just making sure.

You seem to think it's just about race, that's all.

[beaconess]

64. No. I think that affirmative action for the purpose of eliminating racial

disparities and to increase diversity IS about race. And I think that when Howard Dean is claiming to talk about race, it doesn't count when he launches into a discussion about affirmative action for the purpose of expanding opportunities for women. That is NOT talking about race. That's talking about gender.

[joshcryer]

69. Yeah, that's "racial affirmative action."

You have "gender affirmative action," you have "ethnic affirmative action," etc. But they all address the same essential issues, that people are biased.

Dean uses the gender affirmative action to refer to racial affirmative action very elequoently. That is how you talk about race inequality and diversity.

You guys are acting as if he's not even bringing up race issues at all, when this is clearly not the case. I would hope that you'd stop continuing the lies.

[AP]

71. It is not 'eloquent' to claim that you talk tough on race and then use an

anecodte about talking tough to a woman about how she's not hiring enough white men.

However, I suspect that a lot of white man find the images created from that talk very comforting.

[joshcryer]

74. Why is it not elequoent?

It made perfect sense.

[AP]

80. Josh, he sold himself as a BLUNT talker about race. What's BLUNT about

talking about his affirmative action program for white men?

[joshcryer]

85. What's not blunt about it?

What other candidates are even bringing it up to that extent?

[AP]

88. Open your ears and eyes. They're all talking about it better than Dean.

Hell, even Lieberman is great on race. He marched with the civil rights protestors in the 60s before Dean had ever met a black person.

[joshcryer]

90. Just post a link.

Shouldn't be hard for a transcript of a speech.

[Edwards4President]

92. Here are a few examples:

John Edwards' MLK Day Remarks, January 20, 2003 http://www.edwards.senate.gov/speeches/2003/MLK_01-20.html

"And those of us from the South, we have a special responsibility when it comes to civil rights and voting rights, we cannot follow, we must lead. I talk about this every single place I go in America, no matter where I am, no matter who the audience is, for a very simple reason: This is not an African-American issue, this is not a Latino American issue. I'll tell you what this is: This is an American issue. It is about who we are, what our values are, what kind of country we want to live in and lifting up and embracing all Americans. That's what this is.

"And so we can not in the name of technology, new technology, pave the way for even the slightest possibility of resurrecting those old barriers that we have fought so hard to knock down. Democrats are about fair and open elections -- elections in which everybody who wants to vote gets the chance to vote and an equal chance to vote.

"And when we open up this process to Internet voting, we have a moral responsibility to ask, "Who will be excluded? Will it be the poor? Will it be the African-American and Latino American communities who may not have access to the Internet, who may not have a computer at home, certainly don't have access to computers the way white America does. We have a responsibility, a responsibility to ask these questions and to make sure that we have fixed the disparity before we change the way we vote in America.

"We know that the digital divide exists in this country, and we know our responsibility to close it. And that's one of the things that concerns me about what's going to happen in Michigan this primary season, where we've opened up the Internet without yet closing the digital divide. It would be a sad day for Democrats if a man or a woman or a young person had a harder time going to the polling station, a harder time voting, because they couldn't find their way onto the information superhighway.

"So I came here today, among other reasons, to ask the Florida Democrats, the Florida Democratic Party to help the Michigan Democratic Party. This is an extraordinary opportunity for you, for those from the South to lead, to lead once again." Remarks to the Florida Democratic Party State Convention, December 6, 2003

**************************************
"Next, it's north to Emmetsburg (pop. 3,958), the "Irish Capital of Iowa," which gets a visit from a member of the Irish Parliament every St. Patrick's Day. It's also the hometown of offensive lineman Bruce Nelson of the Carolina Panthers, some in the crowd tell their North Carolina visitor in a burst of bi-state solidarity.

"Edwards also will sprinkle mentions of his home state throughout this campaign swing, saying he, too, for example, understands how the loss of manufacturing jobs can devastate a state's economy.

"In Emmetsburg and elsewhere, he talks about growing up in the segregated South. The cruelties toward blacks and threats against federal judges, he says, cause him to bring up race wherever he goes. He also champions affirmative action.

"'This is not an African American issue,' he tells his Iowa audiences, who are virtually all white. 'This is an American issue.'" Charlotte Observer, January 4, 2004
****************************************
"On the eve of their first crucial test, top Democratic presidential hopefuls pursued twin tracks Sunday, struggling to break from a four-man pack while striving to manage expectations for tonight's Iowa caucuses . . . Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina flew across this Midwest state, pressing his core theme that America is a nation divided by class and race . . .

"Edwards continued talking about race, class and the divide he sees between the affluent and the rest of America -- a divide, he suggested, that has grown under Bush.

"'This is not an African American issue or an Hispanic issue; this is an American issue,' he told a boisterous crowd jam-packed in a conference room at the African American History Museum in Cedar Rapids.

"'This is about American values and what kind of country you and I want .... We can change it -- you and me together -- we can change it.'" Los Angeles Times, January 19, 2004

*******************************************
MESERVE: Last night, Edwards and five other presidential candidates spoke to the 100 Club Dinner. That's a pre-primary pageant put on by the New Hampshire Democratic Party. The audience had big contingents of John Kerry and Howard Dean supporters. And both those candidates were very well received.

But Edwards, who initially received a rather tepid response, eventually brought the crowd to its feet when he addressed the subject of race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARDS: This is not an African-American issue, not an Hispanic American issue, not an Asian-American issue. This is an American issue. It's what our values are.

What do we believe in? What kind of country would we want our children and grandchildren to grow in? We have to stand up. You and I together have to stand up for equality, for freedom, for civil rights.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CNN Transcript, January 25, 2004

**************************************
Now do you see why it would be wrong for Dean to be going around claiming that he is the only white politician talking about race? He is not and he certainly knows it, since he's been called on it ever since he first made the claim.

[AP]

93. Google the transcript for the Arizona debate and compare it to my

description below.

Don't think that I don't notice that you've abandoned what was a futile defense of Dean and now simply claim that everyone else sucks too.

Everyone else doesn't suck.

[beaconess]

72. He uses gender AA to discuss racial AA? Why not just talk about racial AA

Is he so unfamiliar with the issue of race that the only way he can come to terms with it is by always talking about gender instead?

If so, he's probably not the one we need leading us on race. His learning curve is way to steep.

[joshcryer]

73. Because he's in a white room with white people...

...most of who don't have to deal with race because our society is so racially seperated?

[AP]

78. Don't even get me started on this "white room" thing.

That's another thing that's lunacy in his little anecdote. I know for a fact that there are plenty of rooms where there are no black faces in America. I've seen them in Iowa and NH on CSPAN. However, when Dean tells black audiences "whenever these other guys are in the white room..." like this is something that happens all the time, or like the other Dems frequently find themselves in white-only crowds, there's just something that rubs me the wrong way.

I bet that, other than in IA, John Edwards DOESN"T, in fact, have a day go by when he isn't in a room with a black man or woman for a significant part of the day. How often does Dean think this happens to these other Dems?

Perhaps he's remembering his own life (with the exception of the short period of time from going to New Haven for college until he carpet bagged off to VT) which included many cabinet meetings in the Governor's office, where I'm sure race was always on the top of his list of things to talk about bluntly, as suggested by his wisdom on the subject.

[beaconess]

100. Sort of like Ebonics for white people?

Does he talk differently when he gets in a "black room with black people?

Too bad that he doesn't, like John Edwards and the others, respect the intelligence of his audiences enough to talk the same way to everybody. At least they understand that white folks can understand the race issue without having it interpreted for them by Howard Dean and that blacks don't need an emissary to "translate" their concerns to white people.

And people are wondering why minorities just haven't warmed up to this guy in any significant numbers? Jeez.

[Edwards4President]

131. LOL!

[Mass_Liberal]

165. you guys are both right

it's about race, but it's also its purpose is racial equality, so in a sense, it is not about say, black people having better educational opportunities as it is, about all people having the same access to an education.

[AP]

61. The constitution isn't even about equal protection for EVERYONE.

There are only a few categories of individuals who get the fullest protection of the laws.

However, race-based affirmative action is about remedies for race discrimination.

Gender based affirmative action is about remedies for gender discrimination.

Class based affirmative action is about remedies for class discrimition.

And talk about hiring more white men is NOT tough talk about race.

[joshcryer]

63. Using the comparasion is.

He openly says during that talk that there are comparasions to be made. Show me any other candidate who even comes close to talking about these issues. Give me quotes.

[beaconess]

66. People have repeatedly offered evidence of what other candidates

are saying and doing on this issue. Perhaps you should reread some of the threads.

But this is about more than talk. Yes, Howard Dean is doing a lot of talking. But what has he ever DONE to advance the cause of civil rights, other than just talk about how to expand the horizons of white people?

What has he DONE?

[AP]

67. At the AZ debate -- I posted this yesterday:

just added this to another thread, but I thought it was important enough to give it its own thread. It was a response to someone who said that Edwards might be as nuanced as other candidates, but it's good because his simple language is more accessible than others. I disagree with that analysis. I find that, in his simple stories, are VERY complicated themes that are very interesting. As I said in the other thread:

There are nuances in Edwards's speeches ... and they're MORE powerful.

Think about that question at the AZ debate about race. All the other white candidates tried to tell us how they were good on race because they knew black people at various points in their lives -- that they worked or fought alongside black people. Basically they said that their path crossed the path of a black man once and and that's how they could empathize with the plight of racial minorities in America. Kerry talked about Vietnam. I think Dean talked about being a FL ranch hand while on summer vacation. Lieberman talked about marching for civil rights. I think Gep, whose district is 99.5% white (or something like that) said something about working with unions.

Well, Edwards, who grew up in a racially diverse community (there are pictures of him playing high school basketball and football with teammates who are white and black) told a story about how when he was growing up, his town had no Latinos. 35 years later, the town is over half Latino. He said that those people are going to that town today for the same reason his father moved there years ago -- for better economic opportunities for their families. He said that he is fighting for people to have the same opportunities that his father fought for for him.

This is a simple story, but it is powerful. Unlike the other candidates, Edwards didn't tell a story about how his path crossed the path of a person who was a racial minority, and that that somehow created empathy. Although Edwards definitely has lived and gone to school side-by-side with African Americans, Edwards told a story about NOT crossing the path -- he said he didn't know any of these new Latino immigrants growing up. He was saying they never walked that spatial-temporal path. But what he was saying is that you don't need to do this to understand the common hopes and dreams of people of all races and national origins. He said that we all walk that path at the same time.

It was a brilliant story, way more subtle than what the other candidates say. And it's way more powerful.

[joshcryer]

60. www.affirmativeaction.org

Read.

Founded in 1974, the American Association for Affirmative Action (AAAA) is dedicated to the advancement of affirmative action, equal opportunity and the elimination of discrimination on the basis of race, gender, ethnic background or any other criterion that deprives people of opportunities to live and work. The organization's dedication is realized in its many activities designed to help Equal Employment Opportunity/Affirmative Action (EEO/AA) professionals be more successful and productive in their careers.

No, it certainly isn't just about race, it's a whole plethroa of things. As well it should be.

[beaconess]

65. Yes, but Dean isn't claiming to be talking about a plethora of things

He claims that he's talking about race, yet his talk about race always veers off into how to improve things for white people.

Imagine if everytime Al Sharpton was asked about his views on equal rights for women, he insisted on talking about his plan to force major corporations to hire minorities. I can't imagine that anyone would claim with a straight face that this was an appropriate response to the concerns of women's rights, regardless how admirable his proposal might be.

[AP]

70. I have no idea how someone could address this post in a way that is both

responsive to the point made and which could rehabilitate Dean even in the slightest.

Why can't people just accept the truth about Dean and race? His entire chat about race is designed to make white people feel better (without really doing anything) and it has nothing to do with how people experience race in America IN REALITY.

[joshcryer]

76. That's total crap.

His race talk is designed to bring the issue into the light in a way that makes sense. Most other candidates would divide by saying "the republicans are all racist fools." Dean says, "people are biased in negative ways," and leaves it at that.

I personally would be pushed off by some prick who supposedly "grew up in a racially diverse environment" beacuse it's like he's saying he's "better than me" at understanding racial issues because of that. I think that's only a way to divide.

[AP]

81. "In a way that makes sense????" He's bringing it up in way that makes....

...white men not feel nervous about having to give anything up.

[joshcryer]

83. That's because white men aren't "giving anything up."

And he's framing it that way so they realize it. What's wrong with that?

[AP]

87. He's reassuring them that he's looking after them. Furthermore, you know

what Dean thinks is the final frontier for race relations in the US?

In his conference call over the summer, he said that civil rights LAW has gone almost as far as it can. The thing we need to do is address UNCONSCIOUS HIRING PREFERENCES FOR PEOPLE LIKE US.

He's saying we have to change our UNCONSCIOUS FEELINGS!!!

And he's either just talking to white people, or (more likely) he's telling blacks and women to watch out because you're just as guilty of doing this as white men (judging from his anecdote).

Basically, he's asking you to do nothing. If you don't feel like you're unconsciously biased (and who doesnt'? -- if you're not thinking about it, how'd you know you're doing it!) he's asking you not to do anything.

You don't hear talk this lame from Republicans. At least Republicans have the courage to tell you to your face that they don't care about race.

[joshcryer]

89. Haha, your Dean hate is so obvious.

I mean, my lord. How can you even know what your unconscious feelings are? He's not saying "look at your unconscious feelings" (because obviously that's impossible), he's saying "diversify your hiring practices." Ie, 'quotas.'

And yes, everyone is guilty of this. To say it's a white only problem is to be racist yourself.

[AP]

94. ... and so justified, if one cares about race.

Dean says that workplaces aren't diverse NOT because not enough black kids have the opportunities to reach beyond their, perhaps, limited horizons.

He's saying that some white gatekeeper in human resources has an unconscious feeling that has to change.

The former explanation requires a committement of time, energy, government resources, hard thought, compassion and concern. The latter requires that you change your unconscious feelings.

If I'm a white person who doesn't want to have to give up what I got, I'm going to find the request to change unconscious feelings much more appealing than that other more complicated committment of resources and energies.

(oh, and, which do you think is the truth?)

[Edwards4President]

95. Do you think that Dean's failure to bring any minorities into his cabinet

was the result of lack of opportunities for minorities in Vermont or his own unconscious feeling that he needs to change? If it's the former, has he done anything to address the problem? If it's the latter, do you think he has since changed his unconscious feelings? And, if he has, wouldn't it be interesting to hear him explain how he managed to do it?

[AP]

96. ... so long as he feels good about himself, who cares? You're funny.

Now, how can you blame Dean for not hiring any racial minorites? It was unconscious! How can you blame people for things they don't even know they're doing. Just leave him alone.

[beaconess]

97. ha

[beaconess]

82. You'd be offended by someone saying they grew up in a racially

diverse environment, but think it's fine for Dean to claim "I'm the only white politician talking about race to white audiences."

Sounds like Dean can just do no wrong, in your eyes.

[Andromeda]

108. You made the claim that Dean hasn't...

so you do the research and prove that he has deliberately acted in such a manner to exclude or otherwise hinder AA's from gainful employment and promotion while he was governor. You provide the information that backs up your claim that he turned a blind eye to the plight of African Americans in his state.

[AP]

110. As noted below, Dean says it's all about subconscious feelings.

Apparently he isn't in touch with his subconscious feelings.

That, or he didn't think it was that big of a deal.

[beaconess]

113. How can anyone prove a negative?

Perhaps the reason that no one has provided information on what Howard Dean hasn't done is because HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING TO REFER TO! If Howard Dean hasn't done anything to advance the cause for civil rights, there's no record to point to.

It seems to me that if he had done something - anything - meaningful for civil rights or had engaged in a affirmative action as governor, you and other Dean supporters would be able to come up with something to refute the argument that he did not do anything. Demanding that someone prove that Dean didn't do anything makes no sense since if he didn't do it, there's nothing to show.

Dean is the one who is claiming to be an expert on civil rights, posturing and lecturing others on the issue. Many of his supporters are also insisting that he is better than the other candidates on civil rights. Yet, despite my repeated questions, no one has been able to point to a single thing that he has ever done to advance civil rights for minorities other than to say that he's going to talk tough on race.

[Kipepeo]

68. That is not true

Edwards4President: That is simply not true. There were only 6 members of his cabinet and the whole state is almost 98% white. Vaughn Carney even came out after this particular jab and said that Dean had asked if he had any interest or knew anyone who did. What do you want him to do? Scour the earth for a token with the purpose of making himself look good? That's disingenuous and THAT is not what affirmative action or civil rights are all about. I think it's very insulting. *That's* the George Bush approach to the issue of race: appoint token cabinet members and then say you're against quotas and use that to attack affirmative action, but claim your policies aren't racist while you point to your cabinet members like they're credentials or a pass. What hogwash.

Finally, Dean may not be the only white candidate I've heard talk about race but he's the only white candidate I've heard talk about race and racism in a thorny and meaningful way (not polished and meaningless) and in a way that gets to white privilege and in a way that gets to the Southern Strategy and how Republicans use racism to win the vote in Southern states. Check out these 2 articles on the Black Commentator:

http://www.blackcommentator.com/68/68_cover_dean.html

"Howard Dean’s December 7 speech is the most important statement on race in American politics by a mainstream white politician in nearly 40 years. Nothing remotely comparable has been said by anyone who might become or who has been President of the United States since Lyndon Johnson’s June 4, 1965 affirmative action address to the graduating class at Howard University........"

http://www.blackcommentator.com/65/65_jackson.html

"Howard Dean has a new Democratic southern strategy.

Democrats know the divide in the South is race. Republicans have exploited it. Democrats have evaded it....."

[beaconess]

79. Facts

There were 6 members of his cabinet at any one time. But he made at least 30 appointments to that cabinet in his 12 years as governor. Not one minority.

The excuse that Vermont is 98% white doesn't fly. Are you saying that because minorities comprise a small percentage of the overall population that they aren't ever entitled to any representation in the upper reaches of government? Wouldn't you expect a public official who claims to be so great on race and who wants to teach the world about affirmative action would have made a little extra effort to diversify his cabinet? Couldn't the guy who is so proud of the fact that he requested a black roommate at Yale (which was about 98% white in Dean's day) have considered the benefit of having a diverse cabinet, not just for representational purposes but for his own benefit?

I don't buy the argument that it would have been too hard to find qualified minorities. That's the excuse that is ALWAYS given to justify failure to diversify. Affirmative action isn't easy - it takes special effort Affirmative Action. If it were easy, we wouldn't need it in the first place.

I don't think Howard Dean is a bad person for not having made any effort at affirmative action as governor. But his failure to do so calls into question whether he really understands the issue. It certainly shows that he has not earned the right to posture as a leader on the issue.

[TLM]

102. You can tell how desperate those folks attackign Dean are getting...

"There were 6 members of his cabinet at any one time. But he made at least 30 appointments to that cabinet in his 12 years as governor. Not one minority."

And did he have 100% turn over every term, or did he REAPPOINT the same staff memebrs from term to term?

Shhhhh... facts get in the way of good old attempts to label Dean a racist.

[AP]

104. When you have three different DU'ers making sensible, irrefutable

arguments about Dean's mediocrity on race, you can tell how wrong Dean is on race.

This goes way beyond being desperate or not. If no other candidate were in the race, it would STILL be important to discuss whey Dean is so lame on race.

By the way, if you need evidence of people not understanding this issue, look no farther than being accused of calling Dean a racist when, in fact, not only has nobody said anything of the sort, but nobody even cares whether he's a racist. All I care about is whether his race talk is more harmful than helpful in the project of getting America beyond the world conservatives have sabotaged it into becoming.

[Andromeda]

106. That's an untrue remark...

and I want you to provide me some proof to back up that claim.

Your assertion that he didn't do anything to advance affirmative action for minorities in his own state is your opinion only. If you have some evidence to prove that he deliberately chose not to hire AA because he wants to advance the status of white people, I want to see those sources.

[beaconess]

116. You're kidding, right

Where in this thread has anyone claimed that Dean "deliberately chose not to hire AA because he wants to advance the status of white people?" No one made such a claim.

We have been saying - and you and other Dean supporters have been ignoring the fact that - Dean did not do anything at all in his 12 years as governor to engage in affirmative action or advance the cause of civil rights for minorities. This does not mean that he did it deliberately or for nefarious purposes. It doesn't matter why he didn't do anything. The fact is that he did nothing. The proof to back up the claim is that there is nothing in his record. Now, if we are incorrect and he did indeed do something, it shouldn't be difficult to counter our argument. Point to something he did.

We'll wait.

[Mass_Liberal]

162. many apologies but

he didn't have minorities in his state. They are I think far less than .5%. He makes affirmative action a major pillar of his platform, but its kinda hard for him to have experience in the matter.

[Edwards4President]

174. Actually, it's closer to 3-4%

But affirmative action is not only necessary to make things exactly representative in pure numbers. It also has numerous other benefits.

Howard Dean frequently talks about how important it is to talk to white people about how minorities feel and to help them better understand how wrong our biases are. But when he had the chance to do more than talk, to actually DO something, he did nothing.

Imagine how educational it would have been for white Vermonters to see one or two or three qualified minorities in positions of trust and authority in Dean's cabinet. This would not have required tokenism since he could have found some qualified minorities had he made an effort (why not ask his black college roommate for help or reach out to the black Vermont state legislators for advice and recommendations?). That would have done more than all of the talking in the world, don't you think?

And, on the flipside, if Dean thinks it's fine to tell white people to overcome institutional racism but did nothing to address the institutional discrimination in his own government ("we don't have any blacks in high positions because we've never had any blacks in high positions so we can't have any blacks in high positions because we've never had any blacks in high positions, and so on and so on . . ." = the very definition of institutional racism), what message is he sending to these people about the importance of this mission he's trying to impose on them?

[AP]

46. It's a pro-white man affirmative action. It was an incredibly

lame metaphor for a guy who claims to talk tough about race.

Bascially, he's confirming the feelign among white men that they're really the victims.

Did you know that Dean hasn't always been pro-AA (for white men, or anyone else)?

He used to want to replace it with only class-based affirmative action.

[TLM]

103. Keep trying....

"He used to want to replace it with only class-based affirmative action."

FALSE. Dean wanted to look at AA as a model for class based programs. He never once said one fucking word about replacing anything or removing anything or changing AA in any way.

"Bascially, he's confirming the feelign among white men that they're really the victims."

Bullshit... it is an example that presents the issue of discrimination in a context that most folks can understand, without getting defensive because they feel like they are being accused of being racists.

Although I guess that value of that might be hard for someone to see when they're so busy trying to accuse someone of being a racist.

[AP]

109. Post 105. You're a little late.

Notwithstanding the language, Dean did take the Republicans' side of the argument when there was a national debate on this issue, and Clinton and real democrats were saying that you can't take race out of race-based affirmative action and expect to act affirmatively with regard to race.

Why do white men need to hear about how they're the victims to understand how a black man or woman suffers racism?

I'm not saying this is not a useful analogy, but it's not very powerful, and it's definitely not blunt. And as beaconess noted, if I'm correct, this is part of a pattern for Dean where he displays much more interest in the feelings of and the effects of racism on white people when he talks about race discrimination. Compare the anecdote Edwards told in AZ.

And you've just epitomized exactly why Dean's lame race talk is so lame and not blunt at all -- white people don't want to hear anything about racism that makes them feel like they might have to give a little up or take some responsibility or give something up (whether it's an entitlement, or a place in college, or a little tax money) and if you step on those toes, be ready to be accused of accusing white people indiviually of being racist (when you're really trying to make an argument about society and not individual motivations).

It's so absurd to think this is about whether you can call people racist or not. It's so absurd that if you can't relate the experience of race in America in a way that can't be interpreted in the slightest of ways that might make a white person feel personally responsible for societal racism, you shouldn't bring it up at all.

I'd say that white people, as individuals, need to get over themselves, but, for the most part they have. Most understand that diversity is socially valuable -- you get more people involved, more ideas, more diversity of experience and opinion, and the stuff that rises to the top is better. This is definitely how we feel culturally in many parts of the country, and we're almost there politically, and hopefully we're getting there economically sometime soon.

However, this idea that if you can't tell the story about race in a way that's an anecdote about a white man getting back an entitlement -- that's a step backwards.

Basically, that's the plot of every Jack Nicholson movie fo the last 10 years. It's deeply conservative.

[loyalsister]

51. As a die hard feminist

I fully agree.
Very recently, a woman I know who is heavily involved in women's issues decided that she was giving ALL the good opportunities for women. It concerned her a lot and she purposefully went out of her way to recruit a young man to work for her.

[Edwards4President]

52. These are two separate issues

Affirmative action benefitting women is much different than affirmative action intended to overcome racial disparities and increase racial diversity.

Women have probably benefitted more from affirmative action than minorities have; that is why it is is frustrating to see so many women who are anti-affirmative action or insensitive to the issue when it involves race.

There's nothing wrong with Howard Dean talking about affirmative action that benefits women but it is NOT the same as talking meaningfully about race.

[TLM]

107. Nope, they are two parts of the same issue.

the issue of discrimination.


What most of the people who are so desperately and pathetically trying to brand Dean a racist, miss in their haste to attack is the very simple fact that most folks who discriminate in hiring are not pointy hood wearing racists or woman hating sexists.

What Dean is doing that is so different is presenting these ideas on addressing discrimination in a way that everybody can not only relate to and understand, but in a way that demonstrates this is not something being done maliciously.

A lot of folks feel like they are being accused of being racists or sexists when discrimination is brought up. SO they get defensive and that makes things a lot harder. What's Dean has done is effectively present the issue in a non-accusatory and a very inclusive way that is infinitely more productive.

Although, some people would rather piss all over that progress, than dare let pass something Dean did or said without vicious attacks.

[AP]

111. Is it BLUNT to talk about addressing anti-male gender discrimination as an

anecdote about race discrimination?

What is so hard to understand in, say, Edwards's anecdote, which is above?

This isn't about accusations about individual racism or sexism, and pretending that it is is just a way to feel like you don't need to confront it.

[TLM]

134. Edwards is doing the same old thing that white politicians always do

it is called lip service.


Dean is actualy talking about discrimination in a way that people understand and in a way that makes them think about ways to fix the problem... rather than ways to argue that they're not racists.


But don't let that stop you from trying to prop up Edwards by attacking DEan.

[AP]

136. this is TOO funny. Dean has said the best way to fix the problem is to

change subconscious feelings. He thinks that anything beyond drug treatment programs might be a litte tooo weepy and liberal if you want to address high incarceration rates for black men.

And the way this discussion has gone seems to be proof that he isn't encoruaging people to think very hard about this issue at all.

And don't think that framing this as an attack on poor little victim Howard will hide the truth.

[TLM]

140. Best way... only way... etc etc crap arguments...

You have no arguments, so you have to take was Dean says and dishonestly present them as Dean said this was the best way or the only way.

Let me know when you can debate what Dean has actually said and not your edited versions.


Odd if what Dean says is so bad, why you have to edit it in order to facilitate these desperate attacks.

[AP]

141. Another lame argument. People here have been arguing EXACTLY

what Dean has been saying, and your defense is that he said MORE but we don't know it or won't show it, so Dean is right and we're wrong.

But you're not exactly relying on any of that other stuff to defend him. You're just arguing it's out there.

That's not a defense. That's a charade.

[TLM]

146. Again... you can't argue what he said.... so instead you argue

about your edited interpretations of what you think would make for the best attacks.


Let me know when you want to try wrapping your BS attacks around Dean's ACTUAL quotes in context... and not simply your paraphrased and edited versions of what Dean said.


Dean talks about one aspect of discrimination or one area needing work in prison policy... and you can't argue what he said, so you add in crap about "only" or "best" then you attack the bullshit that YOU added to the argument.

[AP]

152. That's not an argument at all.

Almost 150 posts on Dean's anecdote, and about unconscious feelings, and now, suddenly, we've left out key parts of Dean's position on race.

Why can't you make an argument about what you think he's saying? Oh, yeah. You've tried.

Correct me if I'm wrong: Dean has to fram racism in terms of anti-male gender discrimination or white men will be turned off because they'll think they're being accused of racism.

Very mediocre argument.

Also, you seem to be conceding that Dean DID say those things. Are you just now claiming they're out of context? Why weren't they out of context when you conceded them before?

[TLM]

161. Still not so much as one quote... why not AP?

Why is it so hard to make your arguments stand up with actual Dean quotes?

"Correct me if I'm wrong"

Been there done that... you ignore it, then edit a quote to prop up another bullshit attack.


"Dean has to..."

Has to... can only.... etc etc all you can do is add it crap like this to set up a false premise to prop up a flawed attack.

There is no point in arguing with you, when you are incapable of constructing an argument based on anything but your own fabrications.

Let me know when you can argue what Dean has actually said.

[AP]

171. Becase 170 posts in, you and other Dean supporters conceded he said

these things. Your only argument until now (a little too late) was only that they didn't mean what they clearly meant. Now that you see that argument didn't work, you're backing up to an argument which, if useful, would have been made in post 3, not post 163.

The argument is no longer whether he said these things. You've stipulated, implicitly, that he did.

[Edwards4President]

137. OK, you're right

Howard Dean, who never did anything to advance civil rights, who couldn't manage to find a single minority to put in his cabinet, ostensibly because his state doesn't have enough black people to create a critical mass large enough to deserve any representation in the highest levels of his government, has in the last year miraculously evolved into the most enlightended white politician in America while every other white politician, including those who have been dealing with racial issues and actually doing something about civil rights long before it ever occurred to Dean to even talk about it, remains back in the stone age unable to even contemplate talking about race in as brilliant and progressive way that Dean does.

Pray tell, when did Dean develop all of this enlightenment? He certainly didn't evidence it when he was governor.

[TLM]

142. "who never did anything to advance civil rights" LOL!

Other than the most important civil rights legislation in the last 20 years.

Oh or are you saying gays and lesbians aren't people so their rights are not civil rights? Does Edwards also hate gays? I mean after he showed his total ignroance of DOMA in the debates... I wonder if he cares at all about gay rights.




"because his state doesn't have enough black people to create a critical mass large enough to deserve any representation"

LOL! There are 6 seats in Dean's cabinet in a state 98% white. And the fact is they did offer positions to some minority folks, and there were no takers for a variety of reasons.

Care to cite any minority person who was denied employment by Dean or any discrimination claims etc? Oh wait, you can't because there are none.

You folks just hate Dean so much and you're so desperate for anything to attack him.... and it just isn't working. Must drive you nuts.

[AP]

144. Didn't the legislature scold Dean into passing MLK holiday?

I distinctly remember reading that Dean's campaign had to "think about" respecting NAACP SC boycott.

[TLM]

148. Nope there already was a holiday for MLK day

the question was about making it a set day or a floating day.

But don't let those messy facts get in the way of trying to accuse Dean of being a racist.

[AP]

154. That was the ONLY race-related thing dean did that I know of,

so I guess I'm out of amunition. But that's not a good reflection on Dean.

What about the slow decision on the the boycott?

[Edwards4President]

158. Or his silence on the discriminatory implications of internet voting?

[Edwards4President]

156. I was referring to civil rights for minorities

We all know that Dean has already taken care of the rights of gay white Vermonters, but that's not what we're talking about. But I'm not surprised that you would raise that as a defense of Dean.

Moreover, you are once again demanding that we prove a negative. It is not incumbent upon us to prove that Dean burned a cross on someone's lawn or refused to hire anyone because they were black. It is incumbent upon Dean, and those who defend him, to demonstrate that he has ever done anything to advance the cause of civil rights for minorities.

Are you saying that the fact that Dean may not have intentionally denied employment or actively discriminated against a minority qualify him to lecture everyone else about affirmative action, civil rights, and equal opportunity? The same thing can be said about the guys with confederate flags on their pickup trucks since I don't think that many of them are making any serious hiring decisions.

Dean is not driving me nuts. What DOES drive me nuts is how amazingly shallow and uninformed many of the arguments defending Dean have been here and how much it demonstrates how far we need to go to overcome ignorance and bias in our society. And, what's really sad is that these arguments are coming not just from Democrats but from Democrats who, like Dean, seem to think that they are in a position to lecture everyone else about race while remaining completely ignorant and utterly resistant to learning about more about the topic.

[TLM]

169. Civil rights apply to everybody....

"It is not incumbent upon us to prove that Dean burned a cross on someone's lawn"

If you claim he did... then yeah it is.

" or refused to hire anyone because they were black."

If you claim he did... then yeah it is.

Your claim is that Dean is a racist and he was racist in his hiring... so where are the claims of discrimination for folks denied jobs or the EOE complaints to support you claim?

You are asking me to prove Dean is not a racist... that's asking me to prove a negative.

Try again.




"It is incumbent upon Dean, and those who defend him, to demonstrate that he has ever done anything to advance the cause of civil rights for minorities."

So are you claiming that gays and lesbians are not a minority or are you saying only white folks are gay or lesbian?

[AP]

172. but especially white male victims of gender discrimination!

[Edwards4President]

175. Why are you misstating my post?

I did not claim that Dean burned a cross or that he intentionally discriminated. And I did NOT say that Dean is a racist, therefore, I have not demanded that you prove he is not.

I DID say - and you have yet to refute - that Dean has never done anything to advance the cause of civil rights for minorities. And even HE isn't trying to claim that gays fall into this category when he's talking about race, so your attempt to shift the focus to sexual orientation is bizarre at best.

In fact, it helps to prove the point we've been making about the apparent inability of Dean and some of his supporters to understand race issues without immediately shifting right back to what's good for white people.

[AP]

84. Did she go around bragging about how bluntly she dealt with race by

hiring a man in her office to offset the gender imbalance?

Or does she know the difference?

[MercutioATC]

121. What he was talking about was discrimination that's sometimes hard to see

because we're not looking for it. It's not a story about "anti-male" discrimination, it's a story about how ANY type of discrimination is wrong.

[AP]

124. Different candidates try to appeal to different things to get people to

understand. Look at Edwards's AZ debate answer: it's about protecting an uquality of opportunity, and not gettin in the way of people tyring to get ahead.

Dean, on the other hand, tries to get people to understand by appealing to white male anxiety that they're really the victims. This is not so different from what Bush does. Dean doesn't even go beyond explaining what needs to be done once he sets up the analogy, other than to say that you need to change unconsicous feelings. That's basically asking people to merely celebrate the fact that you notice when you notice, and telling you you're not going to have to do much else. (And the difference with Bush is that Bush says that he's not going to do anything for women, blacks and immigrants to let them get ahead of white men...so what's the real difference between Bush and Dean?)

[mzmolly]

38. So did I, and I did not hear Dean say this....

:shrug:

[Jerseycoa]

5. So does Clark everywhere

I don't know why Dean continues in this vein.

[liberalnurse]

6. No he did not say that .....

He spoke about affirmative action...the term "quota" as being a race coded word ...used to divide white/blacks in the work force, schools, sports etc....He attacked *bush.

He shared his personal experiences with his acclimation into understanding racism.

[dolstein]

8. He told it to someone in the crowd after the speech

He was going around shaking hands. Someone talked to him about affirmative action, and that's when Dean repeated the lie about how he was the only white candidate to talk about race. Thankfully the C-Span cameras were there. I suppose it's an improvement -- he's now lying on a person by person basis, rather than lying to the entire audience.

[liberalnurse]

10. No he did not......

Here is Dean's position:

When President Bush used the inflammatory word “quota” to describe the Michigan program, I criticized him for distorting the facts. In fact, the Supreme Court rejected that misleading label. It is time for the President to stop using code words that divide Americans by race. With the ink barely dry on the Court’s recent decision, opponents of affirmative action threatened to make the dismantling of these efforts a litmus test for future Supreme Court nominations. As President, I will instead appoint judges who display a commitment to equal rights, and who recognize that affirmative action is a constitutional means to further that goal.

Our nation’s racial and ethnic diversity contributes to its strength. Affirmative action honors that diversity and makes America stronger.

www.deanforamerica.com

[maddezmom]

23. but did you see him on CSPAN tonight? n/t

[AP]

24. Use of the word "quota" is the least of the problems with

Republicans on race in America. I have heard Dean use the term more than all REpublicans combined in the last 12 months.

Does Dean have anything else to say about race? And I'm not even clear what his point is aout quotas. Is he saying that he likes them, or doesn't like them? He doesn't go much farther than accuse bush of using the term, which Bush has probably done in public only over a period of one week in past 3 years.

[Edwards4President]

30. Good point

It seems that all Gov. Dean does is talk about race and then talk about the fact that he's talking about race. Has he ever actually done anything about it?

[AP]

48. That's a better point. Dean's the meta-race talk candidate.

[dolstein]

43. Yes, he did

NT

[tishaLA]

32. You're right.

That's exactly what he said.

[AP]

91. You think that Edwards not knowing how restrictive DOMA is is a problem,

yet the guy you like more can barely articulate a coherent argument about race discrimination, and thinks a good, blunt anecdote to tell people about race discrimination is about his white-male anti-gender discrimination hiring program in his office.

That's too funny.

[tishaLA]

101. Don't worry I have some problems

with Dean, too. (Admitedly fewer than with Edwards' position on LGBT issues/IWR/Patriot Act). I think liberalnurse correctly characterized what happened at the rally, though.

That's too funny.

[beaconess]

114. I just watched it and that's exactly what he said . . .

Talking to an African American man in the crowd after the speech, Dean said, "I got in trouble for saying this earlier but I'm the only white candidate who talks about this stuff in front of white audiences."

He said it, I heard it, I wrote it down, now all of you know it. That's exactly what he said.

Why is Dean still telling this lie? And why isn't he saying it his stump speech, but saying it in conversation when trying to win over black voters? Does he know that he'd get slammed and rightfully so if he tried to tell this lie on television. Perhaps, like last week in Iowa, he forgot that what he was saying would be carried live over the airwaves.

Busted, Dr. Dean. Shame on you.

[xultar]

7. Let's let it go puhleez....enough already. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

zzzzzzzzzzzzz

[ampster]

9. Dean is the best candidate

I will vote for any candidate from the Dems. However, Dean is the most dynamic. I saw his rally tonight and it was awesome!

He is right when he says Dems fail to ignite their base because of appeals to the middle. Dems have to first secure their base and then mobilize to spread the message. Dean does this best. There has to be an argument made to replace Bush. If our candidate voted with the prez time and time again, how can he say that he represents change?

If Dean is still around when the Ga. primaries roll around, I will vote for him.

[quaker bill]

11. Not true

More accurately stated, he said that he was the first white candidate to begin talking about race in front of white audiences.

This is a much more qualified statement that seems potentially accurate.

If you are going to criticize, at least get the quote right.

[joshcryer]

17. Indeed.

Going to bash someone, bash 'em honestly. :)

[Edwards4President]

21. That's not true

John Edwards has been talking about race for YEARS. It seems like Dean only started when he decided to run for president.

There's nothing wrong with Dean trying to talk about race. But why does he always try to claim that no one else is doing it? That's just wrong.

[_Jumper_]

28. Has he done it in front of all audiences or just minority ones?

This is not an attack BTW. He is my favorite but I have backed Clark because of electability. I may change, though, now that Edwards seems electable and Clark is showing signs of being a political rookie. :(

[Edwards4President]

34. He talks about it to all of his audiences

If you had watched Cspan this weekend, you would have seen him talking about it over and over again as part of his standard stump speech, something he didn't just start doing.

"And those of us from the South, we have a special responsibility when it comes to civil rights and voting rights, we cannot follow, we must lead. I talk about this every single place I go in America, no matter where I am, no matter who the audience is, for a very simple reason: This is not an African-American issue, this is not a Latino American issue. I'll tell you what this is: This is an American issue. It is about who we are, what our values are, what kind of country we want to live in and lifting up and embracing all Americans. That's what this is.

"And so we can not in the name of technology, new technology, pave the way for even the slightest possibility of resurrecting those old barriers that we have fought so hard to knock down. Democrats are about fair and open elections -- elections in which everybody who wants to vote gets the chance to vote and an equal chance to vote.

"And when we open up this process to Internet voting, we have a moral responsibility to ask, "Who will be excluded? Will it be the poor? Will it be the African-American and Latino American communities who may not have access to the Internet, who may not have a computer at home, certainly don't have access to computers the way white America does. We have a responsibility, a responsibility to ask these questions and to make sure that we have fixed the disparity before we change the way we vote in America.

"We know that the digital divide exists in this country, and we know our responsibility to close it. And that's one of the things that concerns me about what's going to happen in Michigan this primary season, where we've opened up the Internet without yet closing the digital divide. It would be a sad day for Democrats if a man or a woman or a young person had a harder time going to the polling station, a harder time voting, because they couldn't find their way onto the information superhighway.

"So I came here today, among other reasons, to ask the Florida Democrats, the Florida Democratic Party to help the Michigan Democratic Party. This is an extraordinary opportunity for you, for those from the South to lead, to lead once again." Remarks to the Florida Democratic Party State Convention, December 6, 2003

**************************************
"Next, it's north to Emmetsburg (pop. 3,958), the "Irish Capital of Iowa," which gets a visit from a member of the Irish Parliament every St. Patrick's Day. It's also the hometown of offensive lineman Bruce Nelson of the Carolina Panthers, some in the crowd tell their North Carolina visitor in a burst of bi-state solidarity.

"Edwards also will sprinkle mentions of his home state throughout this campaign swing, saying he, too, for example, understands how the loss of manufacturing jobs can devastate a state's economy.

"In Emmetsburg and elsewhere, he talks about growing up in the segregated South. The cruelties toward blacks and threats against federal judges, he says, cause him to bring up race wherever he goes. He also champions affirmative action.

"'This is not an African American issue,' he tells his Iowa audiences, who are virtually all white. 'This is an American issue.'" Charlotte Observer, January 4, 2004
****************************************
"On the eve of their first crucial test, top Democratic presidential hopefuls pursued twin tracks Sunday, struggling to break from a four-man pack while striving to manage expectations for tonight's Iowa caucuses . . . Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina flew across this Midwest state, pressing his core theme that America is a nation divided by class and race . . .

"Edwards continued talking about race, class and the divide he sees between the affluent and the rest of America -- a divide, he suggested, that has grown under Bush.

"'This is not an African American issue or an Hispanic issue; this is an American issue,' he told a boisterous crowd jam-packed in a conference room at the African American History Museum in Cedar Rapids.

"'This is about American values and what kind of country you and I want .... We can change it -- you and me together -- we can change it.'" Los Angeles Times, January 19, 2004

*******************************************
MESERVE: Last night, Edwards and five other presidential candidates spoke to the 100 Club Dinner. That's a pre-primary pageant put on by the New Hampshire Democratic Party. The audience had big contingents of John Kerry and Howard Dean supporters. And both those candidates were very well received.

But Edwards, who initially received a rather tepid response, eventually brought the crowd to its feet when he addressed the subject of race.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARDS: This is not an African-American issue, not an Hispanic American issue, not an Asian-American issue. This is an American issue. It's what our values are.

What do we believe in? What kind of country would we want our children and grandchildren to grow in? We have to stand up. You and I together have to stand up for equality, for freedom, for civil rights.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CNN Transcript, January 25, 2004

**************************************
Now do you see why it would be wrong for Dean to be going around claiming that he is the only white politician talking about race? He is not and he certainly knows it, since he's been called on it ever since he first made the claim.

[_Jumper_]

39. Thanks

I saw him do it in NH but I wanted to know if he had done it before. I thought that he may have been doing it because the SC primary is impending.

I agree with you about Dean. Didn't Dean also steal the theme of making race a part of his campaign from Edwards? Didn't Edwards say he was going to make race a central part of his campaign the day that he announced his candidacy?

[Kipepeo]

75. That's great but...

Seems like he's been listening to Dean. Again, here's the link from the Black Commentator on Dean's Dec. 7th speech:

http://www.blackcommentator.com/68/68_cover_dean.html

You can read the article and if you scroll down a bit you'll be able to read Dean's entire speech.

He actually goes further than just saying this isn't a black or white or brown issue and gets to the heart of calling out republicans for the "Southern Strategy." My favorite part (and believe me, this is just a snippet:

---------------------------------------------------------------
"There are no black concerns or white concerns or Hispanic concerns in America. There are only human concerns.

Every time a politician uses the word "quota," it's because he'd rather not talk about the real reasons that we've lost almost 3 million jobs.

Every time a politician complains about affirmative action in our universities, it's because he'd rather not talk about the real problems with education in America – like the fact that here in South Carolina, only 15% of African Americans have a post-high school degree.

When education is suffering in lower-income areas, it means that we will all pay for more prisons and face more crime in the future.

When families lack health insurance and are forced to go to the emergency room when they need a doctor, medical care becomes more expensive for each of us.

When wealth is concentrated at the very top, when the middle class is shrinking and the gap between rich and poor grows as wide as it has been since the Gilded Age of the 19th Century, our economy cannot sustain itself.

When wages become stagnant for the majority of Americans, as they have been for the past two decades, we will never feel as though we are getting ahead.

When we have the highest level of personal debt in American history, we are selling off our future, in order to barely keep our heads above water today.

Today, Americans are working harder, for less money, with more debt, and less time to spend with our families and communities.

In the year 2003, in the United States, over 12 million children live in poverty. Nearly 8 million of them are white. And no matter what race they are, too many of them will live in poverty all their lives.

And yesterday, there were 3,000 more children without health care - children of all races. By the end of today, there will 3,000 more. And by the end of tomorrow, there will be 3,000 more on top of that.

America can do better than this.

It's time we had a new politics in America – a politics that refuses to pander to our lowest prejudices.

Because when white people and black people and brown people vote together, that's when we make true progress in this country.

Jobs, health care, education, democracy, and opportunity. These are the issues that can unite America."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

[beaconess]

86. Oh, please - John Edwards has been talking about this forever

He doesn't get his talking points from Howard Dean.

I hate to break this to you, but Howard Dean did not invent the discussion on race nor is he doing or saying anything particularly innovative or interesting. But he's fooling a lot of people - mostly white folks who have had little experience with the issue and have no idea that he's talking loud but saying nothing.

And, by they way, the Black Commentator is a joke - you know that, right? The only time it gets quoted is by Republicans or by Dean supporters who can't get enough of this article claiming that Howard Dean is more advanced on race than anyone since Lyndon Johnson's Voting Rights speech (which would put him ahead of Bobby Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Bill Bradley, Mario Cuomo - I don't think so).

[Kipepeo]

98. wow

I didn't say Howard Dean invented the discussion on race. I said he's the first white politician/candidate I've heard talk about race and racism in a way that is more meaningful...and when I say meaningful I mean beneath the surface of just 'there is a divide' (well duh) and 'xyz issues are not just white or black or latino issues.'

I'll thank you to keep your assumptions about who has "experience" on issues of race to yourself, since you don't know supporters' race, work or life. You can stick that generalization back where it came from.

And finally, you dis the Black Commentator,which I find about as much of a "joke" as the Nation magazine except targetted at the black community and which is founded by the same people that created America's Black Forum? Oh but I guess those (the BC and ABF) are just "jokes" because they deal with black people and politics. :eyes: :puke:

About your boy Edwards, the south may his backyard but the south is a lot of our backyards and it doesn't guarantee we're going to vote for him....and your assaults and condescending posts are making him look mightly unpretty if you are any shining example of his fan base.

[beaconess]

99. I guess you saying "He must have been listening to Dean again"

gave me reason to think that you were implying that John Edwards is following Dean on the race issue, which, of course, would mean that Dean was doing this before Edwards. Thanks for clearing that up.

It's unfortunate that you're offended by MY blunt talk about race. I guess Howard Dean is the only one who supposed to talk tough on race.

[TLM]

149. Guess that's better than him listening for the sound of ambulances...

Guess being in the senate was another way to profiteer of people;s misery, just without all the footwork.

[AP]

All signs indicate clients were chasing Edwards. However, if this is

what you're left arguing in defense of Dean's positions on race...

[TLM]

167. Well since you attacks on Dean have nothing to do with

Dean actual statements or his actual positions on race, then why should my arguments about Edwards have anything to do with fact either?


I figured we were just taking whatever shit shot we could think up.


So how many mutilated kids did it take to pay for Edwards' house?

What's the matter... I thought you liked this game?

[Edwards4President]

159. You can't possibly believe that that qualifies as a response . . .

[TLM]

168. No different that what you and AP have been posting...

I'm just doing to Edwards what you're doing to Dean.


What's wrong... isn't it still a fun game when someone directs it back at your guy?

[AP]

173. Don't confuse anxiety with befuddlement. it's not that we don't think it's

fun. It's that your shift in rhetorical focus (after all else has failed) is confusing.

[quaker bill]

105. I actually have no clue what Edwards has been doing

Largely because I am not interested.

That being aside, if the original poster wished to trash Dean he should, at a bare minimum, get the quote correct.

[HazMat]

12. Yeah, he's

got like 2 black people in his state.

I can't wait until this guy is out of the race.

Go home, Howard.

[9119495]

So you're another advocate fo the forced migration of minorities?

When a friend of mine recently relocated from Iowa to Atlanta, he chose to do so partly because of the larger population of African-Americans in Atlanta compared to Iowa and other places. Should he have to move to Vermont to "even things out?"

You seem to say "number of blacks in a state= victory in 04" and thus Bush will get the Black vote. Not a very good analysis.

[Darth_Ole]

13. He says he's the first white to talk about race.

Haz Mat, tell me you're joking. Vermont has very small numbers of black people. Ergo, Dean is a bad guy. Ummm, OK.

[Kipepeo]

77. wow

Like Kerry isn't the lilly whitest guy around :eyes:

[ACPS65]

14. Dean's a gaffe a minute.

One more reason why he's unelectible.

[RetroLounge]

18. Gaffe: By Definition

When you tell the truth, and they don't like it.

Well, TSOL...

[isbister]

15. What else is new?

Race, IWR, Middle Class Tax Cut... he's not a very accurate story-teller

[candy331]

29. Well I guess he could have searched harder to find

some African Americans who didn't mind smiling for the camera pose and being exploited and used like Powell and Rice.

[Edwards4President]

20. Did he really say that?

[Cheswick2.0]

22. Lieberman

:cry:

Dean
:7

[bicentennial_baby]

31. Oooh...A Dean bashing thread

How fucking original... :puke:

[askew]

36. I watched the C-Span rally tonight and that is not what he said.

He was asked to share his experience of being white in America. And he gave his answer, never saying that he was the "only candidate to discuss race". Afterwards, the man came up to him and thanked him for his answer and then Dean asked if he had his position papers on AA and if he had heard his discussion on unconscious bias in America and the man answered "yes".

[dolstein]

40. Sorry, but I guess you missed it

I don't know how it is that you can recall the discussion Dean had with that man and missed the point where Dean mentioned how he was the only white candidate who talked about race.

Oh well, I guess Dean supporters hear whatever they want to hear.

[Duder]

37. I also watched it...

dolstein is the one spinning tall tales on the issue of race.

[dolstein]

42. I stand by what I said

This wasn't during the main town hall portion. This was afterwards, as he was working the crowd. Someone came up to him and they spoke about affirmative action. It was at that point where Dean may that crack about how he's the only white candidate talking about race. What bullshit. I suppose that some people might think that lying to someone face to face is better than lying to a huge crowd. But hey, I've come to expect that kind of moral relativism from Dean supporters.

[chimpymustgo]

112. Thank you Dolstein, for the truth and the insights.

Dean unmasked. It's not pretty.

[arewethereyet]

41. ifs he's talking, he's not getting the message across in SC

where there actually are a lot of black people.

Ballot Overall White (58%) Black (42%)

Clark 14% 19% 7%
Dean 9% 10% 8%
Edwards 21% 22% 19%
Kerry 17% 20% 13%
Kucinich 1% 1% 1%
Lieberman 5% 8% 1%
Sharpton 15% 6% 27%
Undecided 18% 14% 24%

http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/sc/

[oasis]

44. Looks like Dean is cruisin' for another smackdown by Al Sharpton.

[Abigail147]

132. Would that be the Al Sharpton

taking money from the right winger who has subsidized his campaign and suggested those unprovoked attacks on Dean?? Sharpton has some splaining to do about that.

[Edwards4President]

133. Dean himself has provoked questions by continuing to make this bogus claim

If he wants to claim that he's doing more than the other candidates about race, he should be ready to address questions about his record on race.

[oasis]

153. Sharpton might have some explaining to do but it won't be to Dean. Or do

you think Dean will put that question to Al? The doctor is without CMB's skirts to hide behind in this next debate.

[beaconess]

115. How sad

that people who claim to be progressive are so resistant to any criticism of Howard Dean for not being nearly as progressive as he claims. The minute anyone tries to point out that Dean's approach to race is neither progressive nor particularly helpful, they fall right into the mode that demonstrates why affirmative action is necessary and why the fight for civil rights is still necessary.

It's almost amusing that the same people who insist that minoriries and others who care about civil rights have no right to be offended by Dr. Dean's attitudes and comments because "Dr. Dean is talking tough on race and that's a good thing," scream bloody murder the minute someone talks tough on race to them.

Physician heal thyself. And while you're at it, heal some of your supporters before you venture off to cure others of their racial biases.

[AP]

118. "scream bloody murder the minute someone talks tough on race to them"

Sooner or later people are going to have to get the courage to admit this is the case.

[MercutioATC]

122. Your post would make sense if Dean called himself a progressive. He doesnt

Dean's a centrist. More specifically, he's fiscally conservative and socially liberal (both in a relative sense). This is exactly how Dean describes himself and exactly how most of his supporters see him.

...and, despite your accusation, nobody's talking "tough on race" to Dean supporters by attacking a candidate's methods of discussing race. "Talking tough on race" would be making a statement on race, not simply criticizing another's statements.

Poster, edit thyself before you post logical inconsistencies again.

[AP]

123. People are talking tough about race -- that's it's not about making

white people 'relate' by showing them how they suffer too because of "unconscious" hiring preferences.

And the response: Dean isn't a racist. Stop calling him one.

Whazza?

[MercutioATC]

125. ??? Did you mean to reply to ME?

If so, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[AP]

126. Im saying that beaconees, Ed4Pres and I are talking tough about race

and the response is only, 'you're calling Dean a racist.'

And again, the overwhelming tone of the responses, in defense of Dean, is a misunderstanding of waht people are trying to say about race. It's very revealing.

[Edwards4President]

129. You don't believe that Dean is claiming he's progressive on race?

I guess "I'm the only white candidate talking about race to white audiences" is intended to convince people that he's behind the curve on race?

[Edwards4President]

117. I just watched it. You're right. He said it.

[Loonman]

119. Next, Dean will claim he was born a small black child

[Abigail147]

120. Like Dean says

we have to talk about race sometime. If we do it, we frame it.It needs talking. Mr. John Sunshine does not really talk about race, does he?

[Very Good Dem]

127. What?

This and othe threads are full of detailed descriptions of what John Edwards has been saying about race. How can you still claim that he's not doing it?

[AP]

128. Just saying that over and over doesn't make it true. Just like Dean saying

he's the only one who talks about race over and over again doesn't make that true.

[Edwards4President]

130. How many different ways can we prove to you that Edwards is talking about

race before you'll acknowledge that he is?

[TLM]

151. Edwards is doing the same old crap with the same old audiences...

And getting the same old results... preaching to the converted and doing so in a way that's threatening and accusatory to those on the fence.


See people do not like being called racists and being told they need the government to stop them from hating blacks. They resist that kind of thing, and that helps nobody.


Dean is addressing the issues of discrimination in a very inclusive and non-accusatory or threatening way. Maybe if you were not so focused on bashing anything and everything Dean says or does, you could see the value in his position and approach.

[AP]

157. Only if you believe everything Dean says -- which we've learned isn't a...

...good idea.

By the way, at the debate when Sharpton asked Dean about his hiring practices -- correct me if I'm wrong -- Dean's response was "don't believe everything you hear", which he said a couple times until he conceded that, at least, you could believe that, because it was true.

[TLM]

166. You are wrong... as usual.

But you knew that.... if you thought there was a chance your assessment was even close to accurate, you'd quote the transcript.

But the last thing your bullshit argument needs is a messy factually accurate quote getting in the way.

[TexasSissy]

138. Clark is one w/civil rights leaders' endorsements.

Charlie Rangel. Andrew Young. Former NY Mayor Dinkins.