Will Bill Clinton be deluged with letters now?

[madfloridian]

I did not catch the show he was on today, but I see he reiterated that we can't pull out of Iraq yet. I will catch the transcript later. He has always said that. I don't know whether he said the war was right or not, but I gather he avoided that.

I see it being excused here as it would not be proper for him to answer, but most seem to think it is ok that he did not advocate pulling out.

However, at the risk of drawing wrath....someone else said the same thing...said it for two years. But the last time he said it he was blasted out of the water. So in my mind, I am trying to figure why it is ok for Clinton to say it, but not ok when that other person said it. Here is a sampling of the intense scrutiny he drew, the anger....all for saying what he always said on TV, everywhere...

I see a couple of the links are dead, but most are ok still. Again, what is the difference when Dean said "now that we're there"...and when Clinton appeared to have said the same thing. Why is one condemned, the other not condemned and mostly praised. And why do I ask? I really don't know. I frankly think both should say let's get the hell out....but I do believe in fairness and not being hypocritical about stances.

Ralph Nader's Open Letter to Howard Dean. Email form at DU. Via Harry Frankfurt site.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3598217&mesg_id=3598217

Open Letter to Howard Dean from Tom Hayden
http://www.thenation.com/edcut/index.mhtml?bid=7&pid=2356

Medea Benjamin points to Howard Dean's words.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/opinion/11528...

Norm Solomon says Dean applied "perfume to the past."
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/11524634.htm

Howard Dean's Sell-Out and Betrayal.
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5895

Howard Dean Warns of Danger in Iraq Pull-Out
http://www.startribune.com/stories/587/5360513.html

Howard Dean Becomes the Leader of the Pro-War Party
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Apr05/Zeese0422.htm

Howard Dean Begins to perpetuate the Republican Lies, Warns of Danger
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5856

All the Reasons we can't Leave Iraq and why they are wrong
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5913

Democratic Party Leadership and the Iraq Quagmire
Progressive Democrats of America
http://www.pdamerica.org/articles/news/leaders-quagmire.php

Behold the Head of a NeoCon
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn09172003.html

All the Reasons Why "We can’t leave Iraq"
... and Why All Those Reasons are Wrong
Revolution #1, May 1, 2005, posted at revcom.us
http://rwor.org/a/001/iraq-reasons-leave.htm

Misdirecting the anti-war Movement
http://www.counterpunch.org/walsh03182005.html

The Case for Immediate Withdrawal
http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/541/541_03_OutNow.shtml

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. It isn't St. Clinton for me. He was wrong about a lot of shit, and he is

wrong about this too. It's just a matter of time.

[moodforaday]

12. Clinton signed Communications Decency Act

Prior to 9-11, it was one of the politically most depressing days of my life - when Clinton signed the Communications Decency Act (CDA) in 1996. Ity was clearly unconstitutional, which the Supreme Court affirmed a year or so later. According to the letter of the law, you could be fined or imprisoned not just for serving porn on the net, say, but for discussing abortion or venereal diseases in a forum like this one. Or just for using one of Carlin's seven dirty words. it was so utterly absurd and so clearly wrong-headed, but Clinton signed it. Since then I haven't looked at the politcal spectrum as left vs right much, but rather as constraining vs protecting liberties.

Background on the CDA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications_Decency_Act

[The_Casual_Observer]

17. Rolling over on NAFTA has always been a favorite, along with the

free trade policy with China. Not to mention the obvious stupidity.

[wyldwolf]

2. Just an observation

Clinton and Dean (and just about every other Dem) are correct IMO.

Not a popular opinion on the left, and one I really don't want to discuss again (and again and again), but I believe in the Pottery Barn rule.

[judy]

3. Yes, wyldwolf but...

what does the Pottery Barn do, when someone breaks something while in the process of stealing it??

[wyldwolf]

5. the perps pay

[okieinpain]

4. I agree with you. break it it's yours.

[Ignoramus]

7. If you rape it

You must be granted adoption.

[emulatorloo]

24. not exactly -- you must pay restitution, you must do the right thing

[madfloridian]

9. I am very mixed.

When I see what we did to them, no infrastructure, no power except a few hours a day...many homeless because of our bombs I feel one way. Like we bombed the hell out of them, and we should fix it.

Then I see how horrible things are getting, how out of control...and I think we need to go.

[wyldwolf]

13. well, my take is this...

we don't have to physically stay, but we are financially obligated. Phase out our troops as the Iraqis get trained, mix in some UN peacekeepers, perhaps some Kuwaites, but we pay for it all.

And when a Democrat wins in 2008 and HAS to roll back much of Bush's tax cut, he/she says, "Bush made a mess that the American people are now obligated to clean up."

[emulatorloo]

23. and my take it this - GW BUSH botched reconstrution

just adding to your point and more address to madfloridian.

Bush did not get security in place and allowed the situation to deteriorate so badly that reconstruction efforts have failed. In my darkest moments I beleive he did it deliberately to create a state of constant war and occupation.

We do owe it to them to fix thier infrastructure -- the logistic of it have to be worked out and your proposal sounds good.

[Jacobin]

11. First rule of the Pottery Barn

Get the Bull out of the China Shop.

Then pay China shop to do its own clean up.

I know everyone is tired of arguing this point, but the first hump I have to get over is "are we doing ANY good, or are we causing more harm than good?" To me, we are clearly causing more harm than good, in the opinion of Iraqis, whose opinions are the only ones that count

[wyldwolf]

14. yes. But lead the bull out slowly

Otherwise, I'm in agreement.

[moodforaday]

19. Recommended reading

Naomi Klein - she went to Iraq and investigated all the forced privatization going on, as well as the Iraqis' reaction to it:

Naomi Klein - Baghdad Year Zero - Pillaging Iraq in pursuit of a neocon utopia
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6930.htm

No, you don't own it
by Naomi Klein; December 28, 2004
http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=6930§ionID=15

[wakeme2008]

6. Clinton is wrong like he has been more and more as he kisses up to Bush

What do the Iraq ppl want...

Electric and Water and Security.

Stop building 14 permanent bases that sends the wrong signal.

Commit the Corp of Eng. to the rebuilding of the electric and water, use contractors where needed but not just a open wallet.

Provide security where needed.

Pull 75,000 troops out...

Once the Iraqi ppl know we are not going to be there long, most attacks will stop IMHO.

[emulatorloo]

10. when clinton says we should do right by the Iraqi people

dont you think that is what he means? water sewage electricity security.

the repugs want the bases and permanent occupation.

[wakeme2008]

16. Point me to a Clinton transcript that

says anything like I said...

[emulatorloo]

21. He has said time and time again - get people lives normal, help move them

to self governance. Here are two examples. I'm sure there are better ones.

http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/display.article?id=2839

"Whether you think we did the right or wrong thing, we now have a vested interest in investing in Iraq, trying to get people's lives normal again and helping them to become self-governing.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/clinton/interview.html

<snip>

And President Bush did two things that we wanted done, we Democrats. He gave the sovereignty back to an Iraqi body. There is a schedule of election planned for the end of this year, the first of next year and another one later on in the year. And he asked the United Nations to pass a resolution to assume responsibility for Iraq's future.

<snip>

If it can be made into a stable representative country, which can be secure, where they can protect themselves, then it's a good thing.

<snip>

[dogman]

8. I think we need to pull out Haliburton and all the other profiteers.

Once we give the economy back to Iraq, I believe our troops would soon follow.

[moodforaday]

15. One vital thing he said though

was that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with Al-Quaeda. He was very strong on that point. I don't suppose you hear it on CNN that often.

But you're right about the other point, he did say US needs to stay in Iraq. He didn't really make a single criticism of the admin.

[Ignoramus]

18. The world is a pottery barn. Iraq is a pot. America is a shopper.

While shopping for countries, if you break one (oops), you must pay full price at checkout.

[Ignoramus]

20. If you breakin to you're neighbor's house and break his pot

Then you must build a pottery barn in their house.

[FrenchieCat]

22. A bigger beef I have with what Clinton said today....

was not how we should handle where we are now...as much as him not wanting to say this was a "wrong" war....when it surely was the biggest strategic blunder there ever was....which lost us many soldiers, civilians and monetary treasures and has caused irreperable damage with our allies and has grown our list of enemies.

If Bill Clinton, the last elected Democrat(ic) President (who the right doesn't hesitate in blaming for everything) can't hold Bush accountable, why do we need his wife running for the highest office of this land?

The Loyal opposition should care about accountability.....For our sake....if not for theirs.


QUESTION? Has Bill Clinton ever said this was a "wrong" war, or words to that effect in the past? If so, could you provide a link?......because as long as he has said it enough time in the past...guess it may have been alright to now say, it's besides the point...more from an angle of "I just don't want to beat it to death...right now" type of situation....

then I might give him a pass.

[Totally Committed]

26. Right you are!

And, know why he didn't/couldn't/wouldn't say it? Because Hillary voted for the IWR, and has not said it was a "wrong" war.

It's all about V I A B I L I T Y now. We will not get a straight answer out of her or Bill about anything again until after the GE.

[Donna Zen]

25. Not turning up in Google:

Today Bill Clinton said that we should have let the inspectors finish their job. I don't remember him coming out and marching with us, or appearing on every talking head show to make that point.

Scowcroft wrote an Op Ed in opposition to the invasion of Iraq. How did I miss one from either of the Clintons.

One more thing: Bill Clinton said today that he thought there might be biological and chemical weapons in Iraq, a new qualifier for him, considering his friendly call in to the Larry King Show. The qualifier that he is conveniently leaving out is the part about: imminent danger. No imminent danger. No cause for war.

People like Ritter put their careers on the line to try and stop this war; I just love people who have starch.

[Eloriel]

27. Everyone is TOTALLY missing the point of the OP

Altho it's been a fairly decent discussion otherwise.

The POINT of the OP is:

WHY IS DEAN EXCORIATED WHILE CLINTON IS EXONERATED, EXPLAINED, DEFENDED and FAWNED OVER FOR SAYING THE SAME THING AS DEAN?

NO one seems to want to address that. Wonder why?

FWIW, I find myself in pretty much the same boat as madfloridian (which isn't of course the first time): I have mixed feelings and see both points and can't make up my mind. BUT I sure as hell don't think Dean should be villified, as he ALWAYS is whenever he's quoted on this issue, saying "now that we're there we can't just cut and run."

[bribri16]

28. I think you ought to see the interview or read the transcript before

jumping on Bill. He was brilliant as usual. He didn't say we should stay at war he said we should finsigh the job of training the Iraqis so we can bring our troops home.

[madfloridian]

29. I did NOT jump on Bill. Whoa, there.

I will check for the transcript, but he just said the same thing Dean said basically. My question was why does one get all those letters and one does not.

It was a fair question. There is NO attack in my post at all.

[madfloridian]

30. From the transcript.....

WILLIAM CLINTON, FMR. PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: "Well, at the time, Wolf, I thought that we should not have gone in there until we let the U.N. inspectors finish their job. That was, after all, the understanding the Senate had when it was asked to vote to Congress to give the president authority to go in.

But that's really not relevant anymore. We did what we did, we are where we are. 58 percent of the Iraqis showed up to vote, 1,800- plus brave Americans have given their lives there. Thousands and thousands of Iraqis have died in fighting the insurgency and trying to give their country a future."

I disagree on the bolded part. It is, was, and always will be relevant when a president lies the country to war.

SNIP..."Has the war in Iraq made the U.S. safer from terrorism? 34 percent said yes, 57 percent said no. How would you answer that question.

CLINTON: Oh, I would agree with that. I don't think -- I never thought it had much to do with the war on terror, except that we were looking to see if there were biological and chemical agents there."

At least they are now admitting Dean was right about not being safer.

CLINTON:
"My answer is, whether it was a mistake or not, we are where we are and we ought to try to make this strategy succeed, support that strategy. It's the only option that will get us out in an honorable way, having made these sacrifices mean something."

This is where I have a problem. It DOES matter that it was wrong.

And this makes my point also. Dean called it an immoral illegal and dishonest war based on lies, but when he said just as he had for two years....that we could not leave just now then he got blasted. Clinton agrees on not leaving, but he did not even call the war wrong. Yet he gets a pass. Fair is fair.

The transcript.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/11/sitroom.01.html