Cindy Sheehan should change her message: away from unilateral pullout

[woodleydem]

and towards questioning the Administration about pre-war intelligence fixing. Let's be honest: a unilateral pullout in Iraq is WORSE than the unilateral invasion was. The fact remains that the majority of Americans are questioning Bush's leadership on the Iraq war, but they don't favor a unilateral pullout, and neither does General Clark, Paul Hackett, and myself. Ms. Sheehan should focus her protest on the rampant power abuse that led to the invasion in the first place. I know it's hard to tell a woman that sacrificed her son for this war that she should change her methods, but it would gain her and her cause more credibility if she would hammer away at something that Bush is much more vulnerable too. At this rate, Bush can keep saying that "we can't pullout" (which we can't) and still come out looking "strong."

[evlbstrd]

1. You misunderstand her message.

She only wants to know the truth of why her son died.

[shockingelk]

9. I rather don't think so ...

She wants to hold the liars accountable: http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/1226 and she's doing that by demanding answers in a very public way.

[lynch03]

2. I definitely agree with that

A pullout wouldn't be realistic, questioning the president on what made him go to war, would be a much better strategy.

[shockingelk]

12. That IS her strategy ...

From the link above: http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/1226

<i>And I’m gonna say , “And you tell me, what the noble cause is that my son died for.? And if he even starts to say ‘freedom and democracy’ I’m gonna say, bullshit.<i>

[wtmusic]

54. FYI

for html tags use square braces instead of <>

[tuvor]

3. She's fighting her own battle the way she wants to.

She's earned it, and in the worst way possible.

That any media is paying attention is icing on the cake, and I refuse to complain about the kind of icing offered to me in any circumstance.

[LittleClarkie]

90. Exactly

this is in supremely poor taste.

[OETKB]

121. Amen

If others have a different point of view and want the public to know it, then they must become activists themselves. We never should have been in this war and it is not defensible. Our continued presence is also debatable.

Our soldiers now are cannon fodder(Read Scot Ritter), and there is no Battle plan. Nothing is left militarily to do and frankly never existed in the first place. It is time for the Iraqis, themselves, to guide their own destiny no matter how painful that process will be.

It will probably end up with less loss of life and wealth for them than if we continue to stay there. We can be supportive through the United Nations, but the time for meddling in their affairs is over.

The first freedom, is freedom from harm, and we have failed miserably as a government to provide this for the Iraqi people. To continue to build a bigger Rube Goldberg machine only puts us deeper into this "tar baby." As John Kerrey once said, "How many must die for a mistake?"

[Not_Giving_Up]

4. She wants to know what the noble cause was that * says Casey died for

She wants no other mother to have to feel the devastating pain that she feels.

She talks about the DSM, did it on Olbermann tonight. Every time someone asks her if she changed her mind about *, she runs the list of why she thinks the war is built on lies.

[wtmusic]

5. absolutely not

you obviously weren't around for Vietnam, and General Clark doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about (in May he proclaimed there would be a "troop drawdown" by the end of summer--fat chance).

Cindy is right. The only thing staying in Iraq is accomplishing is killing more Americans and postponing the inevitable. Bring the Troops Home NOW!

[madeline_con]

8. I keep hearing this....

I'm not trying to be a problem, but I would seriously like to know what you think would become of Iraq and the oil wealth if we just pick up our stuff and leave ...right now, today.

IMO, it would be a disaster, we'd have to go back to stop a civil war, or someone would.

EDIT: Who will control all that oil revenue and what do you think they'll use it for?

[Maple]

16. Whatever happens after you leave

like all else in Iraq, is none of your business.

[madeline_con]

24. That's not realistic.

If certain people controlled all that money (oil), they could do some real damage to the U.S.

It wouldn't be the "masterminds" we see on TV, who probably can't tie shoes.

[Maple]

25. Realism = It's not your country

Go home.

[madeline_con]

29. Are you not getting my point?

I know it's not our country.

But the fact remains, we screwed it up royally, and to just pack and leave would be the worst thing we could do.

Do you think some guy will emerge who's an altruistic leader, and he'll just build and dream and they'll all live happily ever after?

It would go the way of Iran within a year.

[Maple]

31. You have no point

Now go home.

Send money if you like.

But fuckin' leave. It's not your country to decide on.

[madeline_con]

33. I do have a point...

and you're being unnecessarily nasty.

You sound as if you don't care about the Iraqi people at all.

You have that right. I differ with your POV.

Freedom's a wonderful thing, isn't it?

[Maple]

35. No, you do not

If you'd cared about Iraqis AT ALL...you'd have left them alone to make their own decisions.

You are NOT God...GO HOME

[madeline_con]

41. I'm not God....

like I thought I was?

You have a severe misunderstanding of my position on this.

You have become belligerant and abusive.

You should accept the reality that not everyone agrees with you, and that disagreements can be civil.

[Maple]

44. Nothing to do with politeness

and nothing to do with you and I.

Iraq doesn't belong to the US.

And the US doesn't belong in Iraq.

[TankLV]

96. "Do you think some guy will emerge who's an altruistic leader, and he'll

just build and dream and they'll all live happily ever after?"

Exactly our point!

It's not gonna happen as long as we are there.

The sooner we leave, the sooner the Iraqi's can rebuild their nation, instead of Halliburton's & Cheney's coffers - because the Iraqi people certainly aren't seeing a single DIME of all the BILLIONS we've poured into it!

[wtmusic]

49. It's their money (oil), not ours

Saddam controlled all that oil for 30 years. What "real damage" did he do to us?

Everyone here is certainly entitled to their POV. I get upset, however, (and apparently Maple does too) when Americans have the gall to think they have the right to have *any* say in the affairs of another sovereign nation.

The notion that by staying we can possibly "clean up" anything is just wrong...wrong...

[ClassWarrior]

19. Like it's not already a disaster?

Maybe the Iraqis will control all that oil revenue and use it for whatever the hell they want to since THEY OWN IT.

NGU.

[madeline_con]

26. "The Iraqis" are not a unified group who all have ...

a benevolent plan to share the wealth and live in peace and harmony.
To believe otherwise is naive.

In case it's escaped your attention of late, they tend to be fighting among themselves as much as against the occupation.

EDIT: Yes, it is a disaster. Don't believe it couldn't be any worse. It could be far worse if we just abandon them now.

[Maple]

27. Not your concern

Go home

[madeline_con]

32. It's really sad that you don't care...

at least, that's how it seems. :(

[Maple]

34. If YOU had cared

you would have let Iraqis decide about Iraq.

Do NOT try to tell me you are there 'because you cared'

Not one person on the planet believes that one!

You've done more than enough damage. GO HOME!

[madeline_con]

37. I am not in charge...

it was not my decision to make.

As you well know, Bush did what he wanted to do, regardless of the world being against it.

I am not there. If I were there, I would try to help, not throw up my hands and say, "Well crap, that was a bust."

We mad a mess, and the least we can do is try to correct at least some of it.

I'm sure there are people on the planet who feel the same way I do.

[Maple]

38. Then stop insisting

on staying. That is as dumb as going in there in the first place.

Go home. Send money if it helps your conscience.

But go freakin' home.

[madeline_con]

42. My apologies if I've hurt your feelings...

we disagree. It happens.

Perhaps we will find common ground on another subject. :)

[Maple]

43. My feelings are irrelevant

And you will never find common ground with Iraqi feelings on this.

There IS no solution.

Just go home.

[RandomKoolzip]

67. Is madeline_con IN Iraq right now?

Why do you keep telling her to "go home?" Is she posting from Iraq? Is she in charge of the Armed Forces?

I don't get the "go home" thing. :shrug:

[Andromeda]

116. I think maple is confused.

:crazy:

[JuniperLea]

69. You assume we know what Iraqi feelings are!

We only know what we are told and you KNOW how reliable that information is!

We have no concrete evidence that Iraq wouldn't be better off if we pulled out!

We have no way of knowing either.

All we know is what WE did was WRONG. Based on the information we have, that the US was wrong in attacking Iraq, we have to base everything on that one premise. And only that.

[TankLV]

97. Actually, we do know that IT IS GETTING WORSE EVERY MOMENT WE STAY.

It certainly can't get any worse if we pull out and leave - YESTERDAY!

Bring our troops home - NOW!

[JuniperLea]

110. That's what I'm saying...

bush would have us believe our troops were welcome and appreciated... i think not. i'm sure they want US troops out of there as badly as i do.

[TankLV]

111. Then we are talking past each other.

I have no quarrel with that.

[ClassWarrior]

28. And Bush** DOES have a benevolent plan to share the wealth and...

...live in peace and harmony?? :eyes:

To believe he does is what's naive.

NGU.

[wtmusic]

50. It will be far worse in the short term

and far better in the long.

[longship]

36. Intelligent dialog is never a problem.

There are several reasons why a unilateral pullout is called for here.

1. Iraq is already a disaster which is being made worse by an occupation by foreign troops which were not "greeted with flowers" but by a so-called insurgency. U.S. troops are the problem in Iraq, not the solution.

2. Our presense in Iraq does not make us safer. In fact, our presense in Iraq has pulled troops away from an invasion which was arguably justified, in Afghanistan. That country is reverting back to its previous Taliban-control which has demonstrably made us unsafe in the past. This says nothing about the fact that Iraq is now a haven for terrorists when it wasn't before we preemptively attacked.

3. I can't think of any reason why pulling out troops now will have any negative consequences. The only argument that might hold water is that Iraq will slip into civil war. But I cannot envision how such a thing would be worse than our occupying army which is bombing and torturing civilians, and children. A truly multi-national, maybe even an Arab multi-national force could help keep the peace in our place.

4. Keeping troops in Iraq does not "save face" for the U.S. Our worldwide reputation is already in the toilet. Pulling out of Iraq is one thing that would improve it.

5. The president used lies, deceptions, and fixed intelligence to justify this war to Congress and the citizens of this country. It was on that basis that Congress gave him the authority to invade. Since we have since learned that the extent to which it was all a pack of lies, Congress has the duty to do two things:

A. Withdraw permission for the President to continue the war.
B. Start an inquiry into whether the President should be impeached for lying to Congress and to the world.
C. Withhold funding for any further agression.

Finally, to the person starting this thread, first you should give up one of your children to that Iraq meatgrinder. Then, and only then can you speak for how Ms. Sheehan should conduct herself.

[marions ghost]

118. all I can say is

:thumbsup: longship

"Withdraw permission to continue the war." --that is what must be done, the only way to stop the Bush Crime Family's insane war. And then put the exit strategy in place.

Abort the mission. Nothing more can be 'accomplished.'

[TankLV]

92. Yup - it's be a disaster - just like it will be when we eventually do

decide to leave.

IT WILL NOT GET ANY BETTER - IT WILL GET WORSE.

Postponing our withdrawl until some imaginary hoped-for better time in the future will be just that - a fantasy. There will be no "better time".

We should leave - YESTERDAY!

The sooner we leave, the sooner this thing can BEGIN to heal. It certainly won't while we stay.

IT IS GETTING WORSE WITH EVERY MOMENT WE ARE THERE. THERE ARE NO SIGNS THAT IT IS OR WILL GET BETTER!

How can you ask the last man to die for a lie?!!!

[ChiciB1]

107. Haven't Read All This Dialogue.... Perhaps I Should Have - BUT

hasn't Iraq just entered into an agreement with Iran??? Doesn't that make you just a little squeamish??? I mean after all THEY had been at war with each other, and I might add a war of which WE stood with Iraq! I saw Rummy standing and smiling with Hussien back then. Sort of weird here.

The Middle East is NOT some place to be played with, the outcome CAN NEVER be predicted. It's been a hot been since I can remember, and I haven't lived long enough to see it being anything else.

Democracy is NOT their IDEA... that's the IDEA of "the corrupt ones" sold to the American people through LIES! Even if we stay and maintain some sore of "whatever", they still aren't going to have a DEMOCRACY! They will have their OWN type of Muslim/Islamic theocracy. And I don't think that we have done ANYTHING to spread so called Democracy for them. Monday, they are SUPPOSED to have a constitution!! Ha! Think about that! I think we're in such a mess that NO MATTER what we do, it's not going to come out good!

And then just keep thinking Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia! We have NEVER even confronted THEM yet, and it's my opinion that looking there would have solved a great deal of death and hardship!!!

Check out a book called "The Bush Dynasty" written by Kevin Phillips, a long time Republican strategist for many many years. He has a lot to say about Saudi Arabia and the BUSHIES!

[dissent1977]

112. Hate to break it to you, but that oil is in their land we don't own it

We don't need Exxon-Mobil dictating where the oil revenue goes.

There is already a great deal of violence in Iraq, I don't see any evidence that it would get worse if we left. Remember that much of the violence is directed towards us.

[Tinoire]

113. Wow. Jesus Fucking Christ Wow.

Who will control all that oil revenue and what do you think they'll use it for?

I guess justice died and put America in charge of which "friends" control the world's wealth. Wow. Just wow.

[woodleydem]

11. A unilateral pullout is WORSE than the unilateral invasion. What the hell

kind of message does that send to the world? We invade a country, completely bomb it to hell, and then leave? We break it and we refuse to stick around to fix it? WE BROKE IT, WE HAVE TO FIX IT!!!! It's about time America took some responsibility for her actions. Should we do it the Bush way? Obviously not, because it clearly isn't working. And I encourage a full scale investigation about the pre-war intelligence and the reasons for going to war. But unfortunately, a unilateral pullout is irresponsible and unrealistic.

[Maple]

22. STOP HELPING!

a message from the Iraqi people

Go home.

[Andromeda]

117. Stop!!!

Stop telling people to go home! Who in the hell do you think you are?

Are you the Iraqi people? You don't have a dog in this race so butt the hell out!

[ClassWarrior]

23. Who said refuse to fix it?? She wants the TROOPS home. The troops...

...aren't there to FIX anything. They're there so Bush** can CONTROL it.

NGU.

[marions ghost]

119. exactly

We'd "fix" the situation more by leaving. There comes a time in any misbegotten adventure when it's better to cut your losses. We have to accept that we are not the best ones to "fix what we broke." Right, by staying indefinitely we aid nobody but the war profiteers.

[ProudDad]

40. The Iraqi people are adults

they have skills and maturity and love their land. They don't need no f*ckin U.S. military.

There already IS a civil war going on and the presence of U.S. troops and torturers just makes it worse. The U.S. getting the hell out would just speed up the day when they will put their own house in order. The highest probability would be a Kurdish state in the north, Sunni in the center and Shia in the south -- sort of like what it IS (duh!).

I agree that the U.S. OWES THEM PLENTY and a decent percentage of the money saved by withdrawing the troops and shrinking the military should be remitted to the Iraqi peoples (primarily through the U.N. and NGO community) to help rebuild their country that we have damaged for 15 years (not just 2)...

The U.S. CAN'T help the Iraqi's at this point other than with reparations!

[wtmusic]

52. We will never "fix" it

and the longer we stay, the more "broken" it gets

[ben frank]

77. WE BROKE IT, WE HAVE TO FIX IT!!!! = The Big Lie

we're not fixing shit, we're stealing their oil- its now been proven- $9 billion 'lost' and Bush, Congress didn't want to investigate- doesn't that make them accessories to the crime?

Every month we stay Halliburton gets another billion or two... it's not nobility that's keeping us there, but pure unadulterated greed.




t-shirts and flyers for Camp Casey
http://www.benfrank.net/crawford

[ClassWarrior]

106. They "broke it" PRECISELY TO "fix it" and rake in the profits...

...from "reconstruction."

NGU.

[goodhue]

103. When you break things . . .

"When you break something in a store you don't sit there with crazy glue trying to piece it back together. And you most certainly don't run around with a bat breaking more things. What you do is apologize, write them a check, and get out before you do anymore damage."

- Patrick Resta of Iraq Veterans against the War

http://www.counterpunch.org/zeese05052005.html

[splat]

6. There's no such thing as a bilateral pullout in this one n/t

[Maple]

7. Oh a pullout is guaranteed

The only question is how many will die before it happens?

[madeline_con]

10. There will still be people needed for the continued occupation...

They can call it a pullout, but a lot of people will still have to be on the ground in Iraq fro a very long time.

[Maple]

14. Only the ones flying the chopper

as it leaves the highest building in the Green Zone with people hanging on to the rope ladder.

[madeline_con]

15. God, what an image....

it's the m.o. our "brave leaders" use, though.

[Maple]

17. An increasingly familiar one

though, I'm afraid.

[mikelewis]

13. Why should she change anything?

So far, she's the only one whose putting a face on this movement. She's not a politician trying to score a political victory, she's a mom who lost her son to a lie told by the President of the United Sates. We should never have gone there in the first place, compounding the illegal violence with more violence seems like a ridiculous cycle that we need to break. CIndy is bringing that message to the American people with her steadfast determination and I applaud her for it.

[sarahlee]

18. Disagree

She is a mom who lost a son in a war with a murky agenda. She has a right to ask for whatever she wants.

She has come out in support of the Homeward Bound Act - H.J.RES.55, which I believe has 45 cosponsors, including some Republicans.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HJ00055:@@@L&summ2=m&#status

[madeline_con]

20. It would only be used as ammo to ridicule her...

Idiots like Rush et al would say she's "flip-flopping".

Besides, I'm sure she's spent many sleepless nights deciding what the most important question is where she's concerned.

[Carolab]

21. It actually IS already part of her message.

She is asking "why did we go there and why did my son and all those other people die?" and "Why did you lie about why we went there, and why aren't your daughters there if it is such a noble cause?" But she is also saying she doesn't want him to "honor" her son's death by completing the mission; she wants him to honor it by sending the troops home.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[longship]

39. Thank you for saying what many of us are thinking.

n/t

[Disturbed]

45. Mrs. Sheehan has her own mind.

I feel that she is using it to the best of her ability and doing a great service to the USA.

The U.S. Occupation of Iraq is illegal as was the Invasion of Iraq and the Bush Regime lied to the American people and Congress about WMDs. For that they all should be Impeached.

The Occupation is not a Peace Keeping Force or a Nation Building Force. It is a Colonial Occupation Force. Most Iraqis understand this. Most wealthy Irqaqis have left Iraq. The U.S. is only interested in controling the oil flow and a Military Force in the ME.

The Middle Class of Amerika are paying for this territory Occupation with the blood of their relatives and taxes. I predict that within a few months most of the Middle Class will snap out of their delusions and belief in the lies of the Bush Regime and demand an end to the ripp off.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

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[jzodda]

46. 100% Agree with you

I blogged about that back on 7/22 here

http://progressivephoenix.blogspot.com/2005/07/iraq-debaclewe-broke-it-we-own-it.html


Fact is pulling out now is totally DISHONOURABLE regardless of the dubious reasons we went there in the 1st place. If it costs lives of our people to help stabalize the situation then so be it. We should be going after bush for getting us into this mess, aka DSM and the like.

Pulling out now and abandoning Iraq to civil war and probable partition and longlasting regional instability is not acceptable to the majorty of americans.

We broke it, we own it...The president was warned but did not take the advice.

[Q]

51. Please don't presume to speak for a 'majority of Americans'...

...because they don't want their sons and daughters used as cannon fodder for 'wars' that didn't have to happen.

The only ones that would be 'dishonored' by pulling out are those who started this illegal war in the first place.

And you seem so friggin casual about the 'lives of our people' that YOU are willing to sacrifice so that Bush can be a 'war president'.

Your attitude is no better than that of Bush's...neither of YOU have to put your lives on the line for a lie.

[jzodda]

55. Go tell your story to the Iraqi people who WILL suffer

if we pullout right away. You do not give a damn about them do you? Sure it was an illegal war but your response now is as shocking as Bush's actions that got us into this mess to begin with. Your anger at Bush has clouded your judgement-you think I want bush to be a war president? My thoughts have nothing to do with him at all, but its the Iraqi people I care about.


You are saying you do not care about all the innocent Iraqi civilians who WILL die in large numbers if we cut and run?

Its your attitude thats no better then Bush not mine

[CWebster]

57. Once I heard Bush, defiant and ever so insulted

that the insurgents threatened our right to be there. Listen to that:

"Our right to be there"

It doesn't seem to matter what the Iraqis want in your scenario.

[jzodda]

58. Its what the Iraqi's want thats most important to many people

The Iraqis want peace and security first at this point, and with our help. The Iraqi gov states this publiclly, the Grand religious shia leader has also said this recently and the iraqis on the street also say this for the most part depending of course which city you ask it. They do not like us there, do not want us there but realize we need to be there for now. Sure in the Sunni areas its a somewhat different story but thats the heart of this insurgency.

The gov there can not survive without us, mark my words it would fall in a matter of weeks if we left like that. Once that happens the situation would become total chaos and anarchy with gangs and warlords and tribes dividing up their turf. Iraqi would become like Lebanon of the 1980s or Somalia of the 1990s. As bad as it is now, this would be a far worse situation.

[CWebster]

62. peace and security

is not created by the force that destroys peace and security. Of course you are going to hear the Iraqi gov, seen as a US puppet and hand selected media produced Iraqi-on-the-street-samples reflecting anything else.

It is the Occupation that drives the chaos, that it could be anything else is wishful thinking.

[frictionlessO]

73. It has already failed, AL queda is supported there because of us being

there.

WHo is killing the most civilians? AL queda.

WHo is traing new terrorists and leaders there because we ar there? Al queda.

I think you are the one trying put your own arrogance(that the US can actually fix Iraq) and guilt ahead of what Iraq may or may not want or need.

The governement in Iraq is a sham their populace is waking up to that fact and there getting more pissed about it.....

ya know what forget it, go ahead and "stay the course" while you do that it'll get harder and harder to bring in a Pan Arab security force or UN contingent. Because the bulk of the violence is being perpetrated on Iraq because we are there.

Im sure that you feel so self rightous about your feelings though that I could bring you ten Iraqis who agree with me and you'll still argue against it...

pointless 10 more years of war for what? We can do no good over there as long as we are there.

[Q]

66. Your message...

...is one of delusion and denial.

The Iraqi people ARE suffering right now and will continue to suffer until US troops are replaced with peace-keeping forces.

Dropping bombs and indiscriminately killing innocent men, women and children could hardly be described as 'helping' the Iraqi people. I would suggest that those who want this to continue can't care much about the victims of a war that didn't have to happen.

And please stop with the bullshit RWTalking point about my 'anger at Bush clouding my judgment'. It has nothing to do with my opinion or 'judgment'. It's about the reality of what's going on in Iraq right now.

Iraqi civilians are dying in LARGE NUMBERS right now...and have been ever since the unnecessary 'shock and awe'. Little or none of the promised reconstruction is taking place. Instead...the money is going to line the pockets of contractors/friends of Bush.

Bush's war is killing far more civilians than terrorists. Innocent Iraqis are being literally slaughtered in the streets and in their homes. All one has to do to be labled as a terrorist in Iraq is oppose the invasion and occupation.

Bush also says he cares about the Iraqi people. But neither one of you want to do anything that would actually prove that point.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[goodhue]

105. The Iraqis I've met all want us to leave ASAP

They think that it is the illegal occupation itself that is causing innocent Iraqi civilians to die in large numbers daily. Its your attitude thats akin to Bush and is equally myopic and misinformed. Sorry to be so harsh, but it is sad to see democrats clouded by propaganda.

[LittleClarkie]

89. Well, go and set up your own camp then

Her message is her message. She's a grieving mother. That is her focus. She doesn't need media consultants or reframing. What is coming from her gut is powerful enough.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goodhue]

104. When you break things . . .

"When you break something in a store you don't sit there with crazy glue trying to piece it back together. And you most certainly don't run around with a bat breaking more things. What you do is apologize, write them a check, and get out before you do anymore damage."

- Patrick Resta of Iraq Veterans against the War

http://www.counterpunch.org/zeese05052005.html

[TheWatcher]

114. "If it costs lives of our people to help stabalize the situation then so

be it."

As long as it isn't yours, right?

You COWARD.

Suit up and put your money where your mouth is or shut the fuck up.

[CWebster]

47. Yeah, well we are really making things better as time passes,

aren't we?

Iraqis are not an inferior race of some primitive barbarians that our white and noble military might can redeem. They are among the oldest civilization on earth and they managed to survive for centuries without our adolescent, arrogant, oft times ignorant, infant by comparison, country.

Underlying all this, is a racism of sorts, that sees us as the benefactor, generous and superior, without knowing that Iraq, prior to Western intervention was sophisticated, literate and well-educated.

What can you expect from Clark who defended the role of the SOA by suggesting "that if we don't teach them human rights, who will?". Talk about the height of arrogance and denial of others humanity. What exactly did we teach them in El Salevador, with our SOA-trained right-wing goon squads? Brutal gangs, moving into the US, who are sometimes deported back to El Savador where the heighest percentage of crime is gang related.

Our legacy is brutality, how the hell is that improving anything now or in the future?

[blondeatlast]

48. Break a vase, you buy it and leave. Continue to smash up the china shop.

with a baseball bat, they take you out by force.

This is a fight to the death situation for the Iraqis. We need to get out now. The consequences of our leaving couldn't possibly be any worse than those if we stay there.

I've "flip-flopped" on this issue myself. I thought we needed to stay there, but not anymore. The situation grows graver by the day.

We need to pull out now. As one who is old enough to remember Viet Nam, I think Iraq will be just fine on its own. It won't be easy for them, but we aren't making it any easier by staying.

[sendero]

53. For the life of me...

... I don't even understand your argument.

Just exaclty WHAT is you think think Americans can do in Iraq and HOW do you think we will do it?

If every month that goes by results in a deteriorating situation, why do you think stay longer is going to help?

It's not a matter of what the "right" thing to do is, of course it would be "right" if we could fix the mess we have made.

We cannot. It is as simple as that.

[jzodda]

56. There are Things we can do

Abandoning the Iraqi people is a terrible option though. Through money, tranining and diplomacy we can give the Iraqi's a chance and thats all we can do. They are trying to write a constitution, then in Dec or sometime next year they will try to hold elections again. Look for a huge push to get the Sunni's invloved this time around.

At the same time we train the Iraqi's over time till more and more of them are ready to take charge of security. Many of the new Iraqi army is made up of Shia and kurd and they have little experience in military affairs. They estimate there are only 4,000-5,000 battle ready Iraqi troops who can operate without help. The rebels can field probably 5x that number, maybe more.

This training takes time, money and unfortunately the blood of our people. As much as I hated Bush for getting us into this, I would hate more to just leave the Iraqis helpless to defend themselves. If we leave the extreme elements on both sides will take that country into Civil war for sure.

The Sunni extemeists backed by the former regime and the Sunni arab countries next door on one side holding the middle and the Shia extremists backed by Iran on the other side and holding the south. The Kurds on the sidelines in the north waiting to go with the winner and hoping for a partition of the country. Thats a messy situation and the only way we can hold it off is to stabilize the security situation over time. As more and more Iraqis are trained to fight by us and are given more responsibility we can slowly begin to back off.

This is a total mess I agree but I would hate to abandon the innocent iraqi civilians who by and large want us to fix the mess we created and then leave.

I know I can not convince you and many others here otherwise, but there is a number of people here who hate bush, are loyal democrats, were against the war from the start but who do not want us to cut and run just yet.

[CWebster]

59. Your screed is full of talking points.

The Iraqis are not ignorant clueless people, they can and have always, in a history far longer than ours, tended to their own affairs.

Why the hell should we help them to train a proxy force to fight our war? Do you support imposing another Saddam-style police state to do our bidding when we destroyed their economy and infrastructure and there are few jobs? Does it ever occur to you that the insurgents are Iraqis resisting US occupation? In that case, what is the role for Iraqi security forces? To turn against their own peoples struggle to oust the Occupier?

[sunnystarr]

75. Maybe a civil war was bound to happen in any event once

Saddam was gone. Iraq was created by the Brits purposefully to have the factions that exist. A dictator was installed to keep the peace between these factions. I don't believe a democracy can exist there. Just look at our own history and the treatment given to various factions that landed on our shores but in much lesser numbers than the 3 factions in Iraq that are all present at the same time.

Iraq is comprised of mainly middle class citizens who have now lost most everything. It's going to take a long time for that country to settle.

No matter how long we're there or how much money we pump in we're never going to change anything and ten more years will only see us without any progress.

So we should pull out. The new government can request help from the UN and NATO and without our presence I'm sure they'll get it. If a civil war erupts sooner or later it will be over and the area will settle either as a whole or in parts.

Once we're gone the actual terrorists will leave since their target is no longer there. What will be left is the insurgents who are Iraqi natives.

The most optimum results we can hope for is Shiite government who will align with Iran in any event.

*edited for spelling

[comsymp]

60. No, she shouldn't

Her message is hers - not yours, not mine, not The Left's.

She's doing and saying exactly what she should be.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nevergiveup]

61. I tend to agree with the original post but

also realize that Cindy Sheehan is one of those few select special grieving moms who has kept her reality index in check. Her son died for "nothing".......what a tragic reality with which to live. I think she should stick to her guns. My personal fears of the consequences of an immediate withdrawal are beginning to subside and my support of the "we broke it and have to fix it" idea is crumbling. It is just a matter of time for all of us. God bless Cindy Sheehan.

[emrenz]

63. Pullout

Mrs. Sheehan simply wants the president to tell her what the "noble cause" her son gave his life (as well as many others) is.

The Bush camp is responding to her as if she is demanding an immediate pullout. This is purely by design. Knowing that most people (Dems & Reps) understand that an immediate pullout is impossible and unwise, the administration gives the appearance that Cindy Sheehan is making an unreasonable demand, and therefore, her vigil and her opinions should be discounted. They're dodging her real question and trying to deflect her message.

What noble cause?

This should be our mantra. I urge people, to do as I have done and make yourself a small sign and place it in your car, or wear it. Just the three words: What Noble Cause?

[ibegurpard]

64. Stop trying to make her change her message to fit your agenda.

She is doing what she is doing because it comes from the heart. That is why it is getting through all the white noise otherwise known as the media.

[lukasahero]

85. Thank you!

Who the f*ck are we to tell her what her message should be? Good god if people here think she should do it differently, then maybe they should put their money where their mouth is and do something themselves.

[Tinoire]

65. Why? So she can represent you instead of herself?

What a bunch of crap.

Let's be honest This invisible majority of Americans you mention who are merely *questioning* Bush's *leadership* are pro-war reptiles. The MAJORITY represented themselves quite well when they came out as over 50% against the war before it was officially started.

If you feel your message is the "right one", YOU go stand in a ditch in Crawford and see how much support you'll garner with that pro-imperialist-thieving message. Cindy Sheehan speaks for a bunch of us and we support her message 100%, yours however.... well maybe Bush would be quite happy to come speak and be photographed with you.

[McCamy Taylor]

68. Her message is just fine.

[Teaser]

70. You're really pissing me off.

This is about HER and HER SON. Don't try and use it to advance your (or our) agenda.

You wanna protest something else, start your own damn camp in crawford.

[frictionlessO]

72. It is not for you to decide!!!! If you dont support her just say so and

don't!

"Oh I don't agree with her and I want her too change her views according to mine"

get off it, you and everyone else who say Iraq will just be sooo much worse if we left, act like shes saying pull out and leave no UN or Pan Arab force in security detail. Like shes saying pull out without offereing reparations. Like shes saying pull out without giving all the rebuilding jobs to Iraqi firms...etc, etc.

Also you do not know if we pull out it is going to be any different than it is already, whilst many people are being killed by rivals and bloodfeuds, belive me that is going to go on whether we are there or not. We will never EVER get a grip on that. Full blown civil war may happen but Al Queda will not have the excuse of American/westerners occupying Iraq. And guess who does the most damage to the civ population, thats right Al Queda in Iraq. Without us they lose support almost overnight, their support in Iraq is almost completely hinged on us being there doing what we are doing.

You also seem to be under the notion that we can do some good there, we cant... not until we leave. Reparations must not only come from monies but from indictments and prosecutions of this administration. Then we might be able to get some of our goodstanding back in the eyes of the world and more importantly the Iraqis.

We are still torturing (at least by proxie) in Iraq, everywhere our troops are at the civilian population is at risk. Anyone who works with us is at risk as well as their families and neighbors. In point of fact the longer we stay the worse it is going to get for the Iraqis. They dont have our body armor, they dont have our green zone to go home to, they cant afford the thousands of dollars for bodyguards.

Most of all there is no democracy in Iraq, and all those purple fingered voters are beggining to realize that and once that really seeps into the national psyche that things have changed ... for the worst. Well then they might start killing eachother more and more and us as well. There we'll still be because of this oversimplified pottery barn rule. A country is not a Pottery Barn it is an insult to even compare that ancient civilization to a crummy crafts store knock off.

It is my opinion that those who are propenents of "staying the course", are guilt ridden and/or arrogant. The guilt is understandable but is not a good reason to stay, arrogance at thinking we can actually help by keeping a 150,000 troop contingent occupying Iraq that everyone hates is just...well.. not very compassionate and quite selfish in the end. In the meantime we train more and more terrorists, build up more hatred for our once great country and that many more Iraqis die in your name.

...and here is the kicker, I may well be wrong and I accept that.
Because I acknowledge that I am free from the "I am so obviously right about this" syndrome.

Most of the "stay the course" people I've seen can't even comprehend how to get to that mindset. They can't get past the pottery barn rule...

I can't get past the unending and growing violence that is happening because we ARE there. Thats the problem as I see it... and again I could be wrong just as you could be wrong just as every expert can be wrong. No one knows for sure what any action will do to affect and effect the situation, but "staying the course" ceratinly seems to be failing.

[anaxarchos]

76. Out Now!

.... everything else is imperial bullshit.

[MadHound]

78. It is reasoning like yours that kept us in Vietnam, to the tune of

Fifty thousand pluse US soldiers dead, millions and millions of Vietnamese dead, millions and millions of wounded, and an entire country laid to waste.

Sorry friend, but our continued presence in Iraq is not going to bring order and stability, it will just simply insure continued death and destruction. We should pull out now, in order to prevent that. Yes, there is a pretty good chance that Iraq will have some sort of civil war after we leave. But it will be short, sharp and over with relatively quickly, after which Iraq will know peace and stability once again. However this civil war is going to happen no matter how long we stay in Iraq, and no matter how much rebuilding we get done. For the thing is that no matter what the government is, it will be considered illegit by the Iraqi people because it is installed under the auspices of the US. Thus, a civil war is guaranteed, no matter when we leave.

So the best course is to minimize the death and destruction, and leave NOW.

[FogerRox]

79. Funny stuff-- CIndy should do what Cindy wants

& AS David Frost told Richard Nixon on TV-- fold it 5 times and put it where the moon doesnt shine

[MadHound]

80. Excuuuse me, but what does your little rant have to do with my post?

First off, I was addressing the OP. Second, I didn't mention a damn thing pro or con about Cindy or what she wants to do, in fact I didn't get anywhere near that topic. Third of all, where the fuck do you get jumping down my throat like that? Is there a purpose to that, or are you just a fucking idiot who likes to launch ad hominem attacks for the hell of it?

Grow the fuck up or get the hell out!:grr:

[CWebster]

82. He just posted in the wrong place, I think

after he read yours, which was the last one before his.

That would be my guess, though, I could be wrong, but probably not.

:hi:

[MadHound]

83. I really do hope that is the case

Otherwise he is being beyond an ass. We'll see, I would like to hear from him.

So how you doing CW? Haven't seen you around for awhile.:hi:

[CWebster]

84. Still skulking about

Look at his banner.

[FogerRox]

91. Sorry if I stepped on your toes

Sometimes I post after the last post-- SO as to not get lost in the clutter up thread---

[ElsewheresDaughter]

81. NO....... a unilateral pull out is EXACTLY what is needed!

you are letting the repukes frame your debate all over AGAIN....using their talking points...jesus when will we ever learn?

[Zhade]

87. Leaving the country we're brutally occupying...

...is worse than illegally invading in the first place?

Your, er, logic is...different, I'll give you that.

[LittleClarkie]

88. Her message is her message

and is not available for tweeking. She's not doing this as a cerebral political statement. This is coming from her gut. It is what it is.

[AtomicKitten]

93. Bravo/brava!!!!

Well said and I couldn't agree more. It is HER message.

Damn, you're good.

[marions ghost]

120. the bottom line

:applause: Cindy's concern is to limit the further loss of lives for US soldiers and Iraqis. There is really only one good way to do that, no matter how much you want to spin it. Cindy is not a politician trying to sell a platform and we don't need to construct one for her. She's very clear--she wants to revoke the "mandate" for occupation of Iraq, effective immediately. And she speaks for a lot of the country IMO.

[Lerkfish]

94. Cindy should do whatever she wants. Who are YOU?

She's not carrying the banner for YOUR issues. She is doing her own thing.
If you don't like it, get out and beat the bushes for your own issue.


sheesh!

[OzarkDem]

95. Bush is trying to frame the issue

From what I've heard, she's said no such thing.

[Kool Kitty]

115. You're right-that is how Bush is framing it.

And now all the Rightwing dittoheads are using the same talking points. That's not what Cindy said at all.

[dissent1977]

98. No, Cindy needs to keep her message just how it is

I tell everyone who tells me that pulling out of Iraq would bring about chaos that Iraq already is chaotic and it is chaotic in large part because we are there. There is still a war going on and we are a part of that war, war brings chaos. Much of the violence in Iraq is BECAUSE the Americans are there. That is not saying that once we pull out everything will be perfect, but I doubt there will be as much violence as there is right now.

Cindy is right, bring the troops home now.

[goodhue]

100. Unilateral?

"Unilateral" as opposed to what? Multilateral? Does "planned withdrawal" sound better to you? Or perhaps planning for withdrawal?
It is the folks who say we cannot pull out, whatever that means, who lack credibility. They refuse to discuss planning for withdrawal, in the absurd belief that we are somehow demonstrating strength by needlessly sacrificing lives daily.

[leesa]

101. BS. The US can do no good by staying in Iraq. WE are the problem

WE are the bad guys. Our presence only makes things worse.

[IndianaGreen]

108. What you advocate failed miserably in Vietnam

Do you hate the troops? You must if you want them to stay in Iraq for any length of time. The Vietnam War Memorial would be half its size today had people listened to those of us that called for immediate withdrawal from Vietnam. Our staying the course in Vietnam did not change the outcome: we still lost the war, but we ended up losing many more lives that could have been saved had we left earlier.

The same lesson applies to Iraq. We lost this war, and deservedly so in the eyes of billions of people around the world. Let's get our troops out of Iraq now, and let's save the only thing that is worth saving out of this fiasco: their lives!

[Guaranteed]

109. I disagree strongly- not even because I'm so strongly for pulling

out.

But the pulling out message is the message that goes with ridiculous, unnecessary killing going on in Iraq and the grief and anger that Cindy must feel.

Her message is hers, totally understandable, and probably right.

[Catchawave]

122. Cindy's message is basically

getting Bush to answer a simple quesiton "why did my son die for a lie?". And yes, it does sum up power abuse quite nicely.