Was Bill Clinton right in giving Bush a pass on Iraq?

[IndianaGreen]

Poll question: Was Bill Clinton right in giving Bush a pass on Iraq?

In an article posted by bemildred in this forum, President Clinton is quoted as saying:

“Whether it’s a mistake or not, we ought to try to make this strategy succeed and support that strategy. It’s the only option having to make the sacrifices mean something,” the ex-president told CNN television. “We did what we did, we are where we are,” Clinton said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2005759

My own reaction to Clinton's words is that Clinton sounded very much like one of the good Germans of 1939.

Bush's invasion of Iraq is on the same moral plane as Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, Imperial Japan's invasion of Manchuria, Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland, and Fascist Italy's invasion of Ethiopia.

A moral man or woman would make "this strategy" fail and would oppose "that strategy," to use Clinton's words. Anything less than that would be tantamount to collaboration in the crimes of the Bush regime.

What do you think of what President Clinton said? Was Clinton right in giving Bush a pass on Iraq, or should we dismiss Clinton's words and redouble our efforts to bring this criminal war to an end?

[newscott]

1. Bill gave a political answer

[rodeodance]

2. I agree. and he has Hil to think about as he talks.

[IndianaGreen]

24. He should worry more about the country than about

Hillary's political career. Hillary will make her own bed!

[surrealist]

25. Hillary ultra conservative

Hillary is a right wing Democrat. I hope she does not run for president. Bill Maher was right on Larry King the other night. He said Hillary would continue to tack right and nobody would be happy with her. We need politicians who think like we do. People who will stand up for what's right, not try to appease the neocons.

[Imagevision]

41. Rodeo, you nailed it - Bill's sucking up so Hillary can be installed!

[Imagevision]

43. Clinton admitted to doing Monica "because he could" so he wasn't too

bright the day he admitted that. The best days of Clinton are behind him I used to love the dude, but now you can easily see thru the... "words"

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Hate to say this but . . .

Bill Clinton is to his wife, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton as Laura Bush is to "that guy".

[Poppyseedman]

4. A moral man.........

That's the problem, Clinton and the phrase "moral man" in the same sentence

[Independent_Liberal]

5. Clinton was wrong...

We must support the Cindy Sheehans.

[magellan]

6. No matter what is done about Iraq, Bush** will not get a pass

He'll be held accountable for lying us into his illegal war, someday. There's no statute of limitations on war crimes.

As for Clinton, he's utterly lost the respect I once had for him.

[Lost4words]

7. My disdain for all things clinton grows every day.

thanks for nothing Clinton's. I thought you were on my side, time has shown me otherwise.

[Missy M]

8. No, he is dead wrong and has been throughout this war!!!

[howmad1]

35. Hey, he was dead wrong for a blow job.

Just imagine how things would have been if he kept his * in his pants. Bush would truly be an asterisk in history and the dems would have done wonders for this country. I can never forgive him for literally ruining his country and the democratic party. As for Hillary, a total disaster if she decides to run on 08'. We will be under bush rule till maybe 2016.

[William769]

9. We always blame the media for scewing polls

& look we have one here. :eyes:

[bemildred]

10. "Little Eichmanns" I think the phrase is.

We have a 15 year long strategy here, first to destroy Iraq's offensive capability, then to degrade it's ability resist invasion, and then to invade and convert the place into an economic colony (See "Baghdad Year Zero" by Naomi Klein). That strategy was desperate stupidity in the first place, and it has now failed in the most obvious way, at an expense yet to be counted in full. It's time to cut our losses, fire these fools, and see what can be done to stanch the haemorrhage in our economic and political capital.

[ballaratocker]

11. However....

This question is pretty loaded considering the demographic it is aimed at. No one in their right mind would vote for the first option. It implies that we should never criticize Shhrub on any aspect of the war. I think a better question would be 'We should criticize the circumstances leading to/handling of the war but accept we are there.'
However, I vote for option 2 regardless of the wording.

[Lost4words]

13. Welcome to DU ballaratocker!

:hi:

[IndianaGreen]

15. I am old enough to remember Vice President Humphrey referring...

to the Vietnam War as this country's greatest adventure. It pains me to hear the same lies and rationalizations used during the Vietnam War being used now to justify keeping the troops in Iraq. Perhaps a better poll question would have been how many panels should the Iraq War Memorial have? I think 1,800 names is 1,800 names too many, so I want to end the war now, not wait for some elusive victory that we all know will never come.

[Benhurst]

12. Just because Ma Bush says she looks upon you as one

of her boys doesn't mean you don't have to prove yourself to the Bush Crime Family.

[Q]

14. Clinton is giving Bush more than a 'pass' on Iraq...

...he's also giving him political cover and a Get Out of Jail Free Card from the Democratic party and their DLC Leadership.

The New Democrats/DLC has now officially taken over the Democratic party and presume to speak for all Democrats on this and other issues. This is also an attempt by the unofficial leader of the DLC to defuse and neutralize anti-Iraq-war Democrats.

The Democratic rank and file are simply expected to go along for the ride and ignore the FACT that the invasion and occupation of Iraq is not only illegal and immoral...but is an ongoing war crime.

[bvar22]

44. Much more than "giving a pass"!

Bill Clinton is actively campaigning for a continuation of the Bush* War wothout ANY significant change in strategy. It is insane to say that it is a mistake, but lets keep doing it!

Fire the Designers of the Iraq War.
They ARE incompetent. Their DESIGN is a FAILURE!
NONE, absolutely NONE of their predictions were even close to the mark!
Time for a NEW PLAN, and a NEW TEAM to implement the PLAN!!

Sorry Bill. I don't support continued INCOMPETENCE!!

[In Truth We Trust]

16. fuck bill&hil! DLC= corporate republican. He gave us "welfare reform"

but no corporate reform. He gave us NAFTA too.

I prefer my representatives to actually represent my views not republican corporate views.

[hollowdweller]

17. As I recall similar stuff was said about Vietnam. That was OK 1 year into

it, but I think we are very close to coming up on a time now when we should cut our losses and get the hell out. On one hand I think we almost owe it to the Iraqi's to stay in because we messed it up so bad. On the other hand at this point it is getting worse and I'm not sure it might not be better for them if we pulled out.

Sadly I'm not sure what the sacrifice of our troops will mean in the long run. While Saddam would throw you in jail if he though you were a threat, I believe that Iraq will end up with some kind of Islamic law that will take the country back into the stone age whether the current gov't succeeds or whether the insurgents rule. I think as far as a western society Saddam was about the closest you can get as far as rights of women and cultural stuff.

[IndianaGreen]

18. The US invasion of Iraq was a setback to Iraqi women's rights

and our invasion of Afghanistan has failed to free women there from religious oppression, which is still ongoing under the US-backed Karzai regime.

[Pepperbelly]

19. A 'pass'? That was not what he said.

This doesn't even make sense as a predicate for your little push-poll, IG.

[IndianaGreen]

20. Well, let's look at what the story actually says Clinton said

‘Mistake or not’, time to move forward on Iraq: Clinton

WASHINGTON: Former US president Bill Clinton on Thursday said Americans should move past lingering divisions over the invasion of Iraq and that it was time to focus instead on establishing a successful democracy there. “Whether it’s a mistake or not, we ought to try to make this strategy succeed and support that strategy. It’s the only option having to make the sacrifices mean something,” the ex-president told CNN television. “We did what we did, we are where we are,” Clinton said. “Eighteen-hunDred Americans have given their lives, thousands of Iraqis have died trying to give their country a future. “So where we are now, it’s important to try to continue this effort to train the security forces and the military forces, which the administration and our military have undertaken. We have to try to make this work,” Clinton said.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_13-8-2005_pg4_12

Who wrote Clinton's script, Karl Rove? A more charitable person might suggest that Clinton has been spending far too much time with the Bushes and not enough time back in his office in Harlem.

Let's try Clinton's words on another time, another place. What if that had been Josef Goebbels's own words in trying to justify Hitler's policies to anti-nazi Germans? Same message, and same war crimes, and the words are intended to excuse the inexcusable.

Clinton has turned into another apologist for this war!

[Armstead]

23. Turned into?

He's been an apologist since Day One. He is more articulate than W, but he got sucked into the Democratic Swamp of Acquiescence all along.

[leesa]

21. Clinton wants this war as do most of the DLC types. They know we're

running out of oil and our economy will soon collapse completely. Stealing it is probably the only answer (a wrong one, of course)because we have so damaged all relations with oil producing nations by our beligerence over the decades.

We are going down and this is why they don't fight Bush.

[Armstead]

22. No,No,No,No,No,No,No....

....etc.

[Hippo_Tron]

26. Clinton was trying to piss off Wolf Blitzer

Which he definitely succeeded in doing.

[TankLV]

27. I miss the old Clinton. I want the OLD Clinton back.

He started to lose my support the minute he praised and coddled up to those repuke war criminals.

Must be that "Helsinki" syndrom - the one where the prisoner eventually supports their tormentors - like Patty Hearst and POWs.

Clinton has lost almost all respect I once had for him. My disdain and dislike of him grows with each stupid thing that comes out of his mouth.

I really don't understand what he is doing.

Maybe it's as others have said - it's all about "me" for him.

[AJH032]

28. If Clinton were pro-war

he would have started war with Iraq when he was president. Afterall, he was urged to, but he refused to do it.

In this interview, Clinton said it was a mistake to go into Iraq without letting the UN inspectors finish, and that the war in Iraq doesn't have anything to do with the war on terror. He then wouldn't give an answer on whether it was a mistake or not. That's not supporting the war. That's just Bill not wanting to make major criticisms because of his need to have everyone like him. As I said, if he really is pro-war, he had 8 years to do it. But he didn't.

[Donna Zen]

29. He did call for giving inspectors time...

in August 2005; I just don't remember him calling for that option before the war. I do remember that right before the election, on the day the Kaye report was issued and it looked a good issue for Democrats, Clinton personally called into Larry King and excused bush by saying that he too thought that Saddam had wmd.

Well, even Scott Ritter thought that Saddam had saved back something. That's not the point. Was Iraq a threat to this country, and was that "something" worth a war. The answer is "no." But also, it was not what Clinton said to Wolfie or King.

This was a great campaign spot, and I'm sure they'll be more and more.

[IndianaGreen]

31. Clinton took the moral coward's way by refusing to reach the logical

conclusion that his analysis would have led him to. If, as Clinton himself said, the UN inspectors should have been allowed to finish their job and if Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, why then pull the troops that were in hot pursuit of Osama bin Laden out of Afghanistan and re-deploy them to Iraq on Bush's whim? That's the question that Clinton refuses to answer!

Jimmy Carter criticized our concentration camps at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Bagram, and elsewhere. Clinton doesn't even mention them at all!

Is the Bush's Kool-Aid that good, Bill?

[AJH032]

32. you're right, except for one thing

Clinton did criticize Guantanamo a couple months back, calling for it either to be cleaned up or closed down.

[bemildred]

33. Big Dog never was real strong on morals to begin with, that I could see.nt

[Tinoire]

59. Google. Clinton + berger + OSU + Albright + Iraq

and what do you get? WAR

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-37,GGLD:en&q=Clinton+OSU+Berger+Albright+iraq

They were JEERED off the stage and protested by the same alert people who sounded the alarm about Bush. The only difference is that Clinton, for the glory of his legacy and the glory of Hillary, gave half a rat's ass what the people thought.

And even without that, what do you think crippling sanctions & bombing Iraq day in and day out for 8 years are if not WAR?

Clinton was a warmonger. It is time we get that through our heads and start changing this country.

[SOS]

69. Operation Desert Fox in December 1998

Clinton launched a massive air attack on Iraq.
Clinton fired more Tomahawk missles into Iraq during desert Fox than Bush Sr. did during the entire 1991 Gulf War.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec1998/n12181998_9812182.html

[PurityOfEssence]

30. Clinton is one of the smartest idiots this country has ever produced

He should just keep quiet on things like this.

[VADem11]

34. Clinton was wrong

Geez, I am getting really tired of the bipartisanship crap he is producing. If he doesn't care that thousands upon thousnads of people have died and Iraq is even more unstable than it was under a dictator, then screw him. Take down Bush and let's get the hell out of Iraq.

[tibbir]

36. I used to have some respect for Clinton as a leader

but not any more since he can't get away from this DLC bullshit. He's more worried about his wife's political future than in being a statesman. Also, he sure is getting awfully chummy with Poppy.

[Q]

37. It's difficult to believe...

...that 5 people voted to give Bush a 'pass' on his role in taking this country to war on FALSE PRETENSES. Not only that...the implication is that all the war crimes committed since the invasion began are irrelevant as well.

As the opposition party...Democrats have a MORAL RESPONSIBILITY to come up with a plan for withdrawal from Iraq AND for the prosecution of war crimes.

Clinton is taking us in the wrong direction...again.

And like his DLC warmongering brethren...admitting that Bush committed crimes against the state and humanity would expose their own complicity.

[Cha]

38. I wondering where the 5 votes came

from to "give bush a pass on Iraq"?

Creepy undercover freeptards lurking in troll mode?

[Disturbed]

39. Mr. Bill Clinton is

the Grand Triangulator.

[IndianaGreen]

40. We have some well known conservative Democrats in DU

that support the war all the way, and that have defended the rantings of Zell Miller (at least until the day Zell endorsed Bush).

[Cha]

45. But, to "give bush a pass"..

is to not be able to admit you're WRONG.

[IndianaGreen]

47. Conservative Democrats hate admitting to liberals they were wrong

on the war. In that respect, they are just like the GOP.

[Guaranteed]

42. Look- he's right in that

we have to make the best of the situation that we can. That is extremely important. Even if it means that a number more American soldiers have to die to create the "best case scenario" for Iraq.

There are two questions, that have to be answered IN ORDER, here:

1) WHAT is the best case scenario we can come to in Iraq, and how do we do it?

2) Is the number of American lives that it would cost in order to accomplish that scenario worth it?

The problem is that it seems to be getting to the point where our best case scenario is what we're actually dealing with right now. It's not going to get much better than the way it is. We're losing a GOAL to work toward.

Because of that, it's also starting to look as if, no matter how many of our soldiers die, it's just not worth staying there. The goal isn't worth reaching, really, at all- because there isn't one. There's just no goal, no hope for us to actually do anything useful.

So, I actually agree with Clinton- and DEAN- here. We HAVE TO MAKE THE BEST OF THE SITUATION. It just doesn't look like the best of the situation is anything worth losing more soldiers over.

[IndianaGreen]

46. Our concern should be on saving lives, American and Iraqi

not in sacrificing more lives for some fictional "best case scenario." The fact is that we lost this war, the only question is how long will it take for us to realize that and bring the troops home.

[Guaranteed]

48. You can't just call it fictional.

We have to look to see if there is anything, realistically, that can be done, by US, to help the Iraqis.

Is there? :shrug:

We've already lost 1,850 Americans there. If the difference between them having a legitimate Constitution and not having one is an extra 50, 100, or 1,000 American lives, should we do it? Or Iraqi lives?

We have to think practically, here. What is POSSIBLE at this point, and what's it worth?

Again, I don't think much of anything better than what is going on right now is possible. And that makes me think that we need to leave.

As far as the "this strategy" point, I don't know if Clinton is saying that he agrees with what Bush is doing, or what. Personally, I sure as hell don't. Mostly, because it looks as if Bush is pretty comfortable just spouting platitudes and not actually doing anything FOR the Iraqis, or even our own troops, at the moment, to move things forward. It doesn't look as if he has any plans to leave whatsoever. That's fucked up as hell, and I do NOT support that.

[IndianaGreen]

52. We are cast in the role of Iraq after it invaded Kuwait!

The only role we can play is get the hell out, immediately and unconditionally, before our withdrawal becomes another "highway of death" as it was for the retreating Iraqi army at the end of the Gulf War.

[bvar22]

55. No Constitution imposed by the US from the other end of a gun barrel

will be considered LEGITIMATE by either the Iraqis or the rest of the World!
The much showcased "elections" were BOGUS.
The Iraqis know it.
The rest of the World knows it!

[Guaranteed]

56. Well, that's something that we have to take into account, too.

Do we want to impose on their culture?

What if they don't want women to vote? What if the Constitution that they want doesn't protect minority cultures?

My girlfriend and I were just talking about this last night. She saw a report on the news talking about some of the things that the Iraqis were and weren't putting into their Constitution.

My personal view is that we can't break their culture. It's impossible, whether we even KNOW certain things to be RIGHT or not. We just can't do it. We have to leave sometime, and it's their country. The majority culture will win out, eventually, no matter what.

So, if they want some kind of fucked-up extremist country, that's what they're going to get, in time. We can't stop it- even if we wanted to.

[IndianaGreen]

64. American troops died to force Iraqi women to wear the veil

How's that for an epitaph for this fiasco brought about by Bush, the PNAC gang, Israeli hardliners, and by those that voted for the Iraq War Resolution!

[bvar22]

49. You make "some" sense.

But it IS NOT TIME to COVER the incompetents' asses who got us into the WAR.
Bill Clinton publicly ENDORSED the bush* strateegery, and advocated for its continuation.

It IS time to call the War in Iraq a DISMAL Ill Advised FAILURE, and develop an COMPLETELY NEW strategy for dealing with the situation we are now in!!!!

How many MORE Americans must die;
how many MORE Iraqis must we KILL before this FAILURE
suddenly turns into a SUCCESS???

[Guaranteed]

51. What is "success," here?

What the hell are we trying to do?

These are questions that really, seriously need to be answered. Bush is deliberately NOT answering them, because he doesn't give a shit! He has NO PLANS TO LEAVE. They're sitting on the oil, and they like it that way. He's just biding his time.

So, if you want to hold this asshole accountable, THAT'S what you need to be saying.

What are we trying to do, and what is the cost...to us and the Iraqis?

What's even conceivably possible? How does he "envision" (HA I had to laugh there) the end of this war and Iraq?

[IndianaGreen]

53. LBN story: US no longer expects to see a model new democracy

The United States no longer expects to see a model new democracy, a self-supporting oil industry or a society where the majority of people are free from serious security or economic challenges, U.S. officials say.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1699844

[Guaranteed]

54. Right. I have very little hope, myself.

The bottom line is that the best that we can do is....there's nothing we can do, really, that's going to make a difference.

So fuck it.

Let's get out with the remaining soldiers that we have, and the damage that we haven't already done.

But it's because there's nothing more we CAN do (let alone anything that Bush WOULD do).

[Spock_is_Skeptical]

50. he was wrong, wrong, wrong.

[orleans]

57. wrong. why bother making excuses or saying we should "move on"

bill should have called it like it is.

pandering pandering pandering.

the repukies know it's bullshit.

the lefties don't appreciate it.

[AJH032]

58. I'm upset Clinton didn't speak out firmly against the war

but I still like Clinton and what he did for America.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

60. Yeah sometimes Bill lets us down. Did he have anyone under his desk

when he said that? Because, you know, he gets crazy sometimes. But you have to admit life was good when Bill was prez. And the economy was good, and he had manners enough not to spit in the world's face, and not enough greed to wage wars for profit. Bill is a good man, but, yeah, sometimes he has let us down, and this is one of those times.

[ngGale]

61. Big Dog is wrong this time ...

I'm really tired of hearing, well - we are there now so we have to make it work. Go visit Cindy!

[Andromeda]

62. That's not what he said, IG...

He isn't giving Bush a pass. He's just saying that since we went in a broke it, we need to fix it. He said, "It's the only option having to make the sacrifices mean something...We did what we did and we are where we are."

That means that we can't go back and change it now even if we tried so we have to try to help the Iraqis build up their country again to the point when we can pull out safely in order to minimize casualties.

Maybe he feels that since we've lost so many of our men and women, we can't have those losses be in vain.

If Clinton were president right now we wouldn't be in this mess and you know it. His only fault is that he tries to please everybody and he wants people to like him.

I don't agree with everything Clinton has done but he was a damned good president, HELLA better than the idiot we have now.

[IndianaGreen]

63. "We broke it, we fix it" is a LIE!

This is like the rapist that gets caught in the act and his only defense is to say that if we allow him to continue to rape, it will help his victim get over it.

The Iraqis don't want us there!

The world doesn't want us there!

Millions of Americans don't want us there!

At this critical juncture in history, when the American Republic is on the brink of demise, when we needed most to hear the voices of true patriots calling for an end to the police state and for the end to the bloodshed in Iraq, President Clinton has failed America just as surely as Marshall Petain failed France in 1940.

[Andromeda]

65. President Clinton didn't invade Iraq.

Bush did.

No matter how you try to blame Clinton, it's just not so and nothing you say will make it so.

[Q]

66. No one is saying that Clinton invaded Iraq...

...but he is someone that's in a position to influence opinion against it. All he would have to do is tell the truth.

It's unsettling to see how the Democratic leadership has changed since 2000 and 9-11. Even worse...too many rank and file Dems have allowed them to do it.

[IndianaGreen]

67. Clinton could have been a statesman, but chose to be our Petain

Clinton could have joined JImmy Carter in calling the war in Iraq the biggest blunder in our nation's history, but instead he chose to give Bush a pass on Iraq by failing to condemn the war and calling for the troops to come home.

[ecstatic]

68. LOL... you put the freepers in a strange position

Of having to agree and defend Clinton. I used to really like the Clintons but I'm not so sure anymore. I think Clinton has been away from the "little people" for too long. He's in a very comfortable position in life and has forgotten where he came from.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

70. He is really giving President Hilliary a pass since she voted for it.

He is fundamentally motivated by Hillary's run for the WH and their lust to return to power, so most anything he says is pure BS.

[0007]

71. Big dog forgot where he buried his bone.