In defense of Jenna and Barbara

[quaoar]

My father is a right-winger. Not just your average, run-of-the-mill Republican either. He voted for David Duke for governor of Louisiana.

If he were president of the United States, I have no doubt he would nuke somebody and start WWIII. Would I go off to fight in a war he started so that he wouldn't look like a hypocrite?

Hell no.

So why should Jenna and Barbara be pressured into enlisting just because their father is a fucking idiot? Is the war their fault? Have either of them come out publicly in favor of the war? Not that I have heard.

For all we know they could both be opposed to the war.

But really -- why should the daughters be punished for the stupidity and arrogance of their father?

[indy_azcat]

1. they're still unemployed though, right?

:shrug:

[quaoar]

6. I had read that one of them

Can't remember which one -- was working in a hospital in South Africa.

[indy_azcat]

9. Barbara was volunteering in S. Africa in July

not sure if she still is... it was around the time Pickles was touring.

[quaoar]

20. And from what I recall reading

She was actually doing a good thing and not wanting any publicity about it.

[Divernan]

21. She and some of her college friends "observed" for two WHOLE weeks!

Not even enough time to learn their way around the hospital and be of any use. Sort of doubt she was helping out emptying bedpans or anything. A little PR would have at least rubbed the noses of the hateful neocons that innocent women and children are infected with and dying of the AIDS virus, through no fault of their own, and it just might be a good thing if Bush actually delivered the millions to fight AIDS which he prattled on about in his campaign.

You know what the likes of the Bushes say about the likes of the young men and women sent to Iraq by the military? NOKD

Not Our Kind Dear.

Jenna and Barbara just take up space on the planet - they are wealthy enough to do all kinds of good works if they chose - which they don't.

[quaoar]

25. Were you saving humanity when you were their age?

I sure as hell wasn't. I was worried I was never going to get laid again.

[niyad]

30. I was protesting the vietnam war, working in women's clinics, and lobbying

for women's rights, civil rights, as were a good many other women and men.

[quaoar]

33. I missed Vietnam by a few years

I came of draft age in 75. Nobody at my school wanted to protest anything.

[noamnety]

32. I was in the military when I was their age

Lots of people sign up at age 19, that's hardly unheard of.

It's not their job to sign up because of their father's politics, and I don't approve of the line of thinking that basically says their father should "make" them enlist. They're adults, I assume they can make their own decisions.

However, it's their job to sign up because they campaigned for this president. They've earned the chickenhawk label all by themselves, by their own actions.

[Stinky The Clown]

37. I wore a Navy uniform when I was their age

I worried about getting laid, too, so I'm with ya there. But there's no excuse for them to be college grads with their background and connections and not be gainfully employed.

Or in the military.

[indy_azcat]

29. and if they aren't wealthy now...

just wait 'til poppy and pickles die off... yeehaw no more estate tax.. yippee!!!!!111!1


:blech:

[jhawk_tim]

49. Not Jenna

She accepted a job as a teacher in the DC area.

[Bridget Burke]

56. Then she was rejected.

It was a charter school, but she was not qualified to teach.

The first part of the story generated some good publicity, so the second part was downplayed.

[July]

59. Teacher's aide. nt

[graywarrior]

2. I guess when you examine the family tree for a few generations

it's difficult not to believe the apple doesn't fall far from it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Would you have campaigned for your "david Duke loving" father?

[quaoar]

5. No

But I wouldn't do anything to hurt him either. He's still my father.

[City Lights]

22. And therein lies the difference between you and the bush gals.

They campaigned for him, and spoke at his convention. Those actions translate into supporting his agenda to me.

[karynnj]

68. Their speech was not that helpful

they came off as vacuous brats - from a Karen Hughes written speech. Supposedly they weren't originally going to speak but they were added after Kerry's charming daughters really did a fantastic job showing their dad in a different light - especially as a devoted father who would jump into the bay to save his daughter's hamster.

[City Lights]

71. They bombed.

But they didn't agree to speak knowing they would bomb. They agreed to do it thinking they would help **.

[MuseRider]

15. There it is.

I would have agreed totally with the OP except for this point. They could have laid out of it like they seem to do everything else that looks like work but they campaigned for him. To me that makes a world of difference.

[Montauk6]

4. For the same reason other daughters and sons are punished

for the stupidity and arrogance of J&B's father?

I thought I'd take a shot, what do I know?

[Cha]

35. I like your "shot".

j&b aren't getting killed but the sons and daughters of Americans are paying the ultimate price for having another bush in the white house.

j&b campaigned to get their murderous father back in the driver's seat..they are fair game.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tinrobot]

7. Totally agree...

I wouldn't want Bush to force his daughters to fight his stupid war any more than I'd want him to force my daughter to fight his stupid war.

Now... those Young Republicans who say they support the war but don't enlist... THOSE people need to either sign up or shut up.

[bluestateguy]

8. I would have agreed with you

But when they made the decision to campaign for their father last year they were affirming their support of the war.

[quaoar]

13. Not really

Campaigning for your father does not mean you agree with everything he says. Family trumps politics.

Now, if Jenna and/or Barbara have come out and talked about what a great fucking thing this war is, then it's fine to give them hell for not signing up.

[JI7]

16. they did talk about how much we need him for President and other shit

that the right wing spews.

[quaoar]

23. Yeah, but

did they come out in favor of the war?

Of course they campaigned for him. he's their father. Expecting them to come out against their own father is just a bit much.

Ron Reagan is a liberal but he still honors and respects his father. It's not impossible.

[JI7]

28. yeah, they did come out in favor of it

when they campaigned FOR him and talked all that shit about how much we need him to stay on as President. that was their choice, they wanted to do it , they wanted him to win.

and even more disgusting was when Barbara said in a speech about how it's tough being a Republican at Yale. yeah, that's real tough. what a fucking joke.

[quaoar]

31. Campaigning for thier father

Does not necessarily mean they support the war.

Didn't Ron Reagan campaign for his father? Doesn't mean they agreed on everything politically.

[JI7]

34. of course it does

they talked about how much he is protecting us and how we need him .

and nothing stopped them from speaking out if they disagreed.

Kerry's kids openly spoke about how they differed with him on the same sex marriage issue. they were in support of it. Vanessa Kerry talked about being against war.

Bush's kids could have done the same but they didn't and it's because they support him and his policies.

[jwirr]

38. Ronald Reagan's daughter made it clear she disagreed

with her father and she did not campaign for him.

[July]

60. They're adults.

That gives them the responsibility for their actions.

Family does not always trump politics. Ask Reagan's kids.

[Benhurst]

10. Yeah. They can make some other contribution. How about a

"Girls Gone Bad" video, with all the proceeds going to the USO?

[Nite Owl]

11. They campaigned for him

they wanted him in office again to continue what he was doing, to continue the killing. I feel no pity for them. Even they felt that he was their father and couldn't speak out they didn't have to openly campaign, they could have stayed on the sidelines.

[niyad]

12. neither gin nor tonic have ever indicated that they have independent brain

but that is beside the point. requiring that every single time an administration decides to go to war, the children of that administration--and the admin officials themselves, be the first to go, might just put a crimp in the chickenhawks' mad rush to "glory".

and if the family members knew they were going to be the first to go, it just might engender a bit of family dialogue (or a whole lot of repudiations of family)

[frankly_fedup2]

52. I truly believe that this is why Bush has not reenacted the draft (well

partly). Because then it would be a problem for him and his daughters. Plus, there are probably some senators and representatives that have children that are at the age for a draft. They are going to try to keep it volunteer as long as possible, at least until the next election is over with.

My husband and I are friends with another couple; however, they are conservatives. The man L-O-V-E-S Bush but cannot explain why. I asked him, why . . . what has he done. He just goes, "He has done everything perfect, no mistakes, doing what needs to be done." He will not specify anything, he just generalizes everything. The woman friend votes conservative due to abortion. I have asked her about in-vitro fertilization, etc., and she ho hums around it. (They have never been able to have a child but could have through in-vitro). I say it is hypocritical. It got to the point were none of us to get together without getting aggravated with each other. She had to go into rehab for narcotics addiction and almost immediately he had to go in for alcoholism. I made a comment to my friends after they had finished their rehab about Republicans really are having problems with their drug and alcohol addictions (this was during Limpballs OxyContin drug abuse). Since I made that comment, we really haven't heard from either of them. We use to could say things like that jokingly back and forth; however, since Bush has been in, we have felt we have had to walk on egg shells around them anymore. They live in Ohio, we live in Virginia. They moved about 7 years ago. In the 2000 election, he had made such fun about how all those people in Florida couldn't figure out which hole to punch. When their county was one in question, I emailed again and asked them if they caught the so-called "stupidity" that they had claimed Florida had (jokingly). Again, no reply to my email, nothing. We really haven't spoken to them via email or phone for almost a year. I miss my friend; however, I don't feel I've done anything wrong. I have called and left messages as well as emailed, but no response. I figure it's up to them now.

[magellan]

14. They shouldn't be pressured into enlisting

It's just telling that they haven't. They either don't support their father's war or they're hypocrites like he is.

[Gemini Cat]

17. Your Father hasn't sent friends of mine off to war.

I am assuming your father isn't running for public office either. If he is, I am assuming you are not campaigning for him. I am also assuming you aren't enjoying the many many perks of your father being in public office.

I don't give a rats ass for or about Jenna and the other one. I don't give any of these ass-hats a pass.

[pacalo]

18. Because their father is sending other parents' kids in harm's way.

A good leader doesn't ask others to do what he himself wouldn't do.

[Dogmudgeon]

19. Agreed

Unless they're outspoken (like Pickles), family members should be off-limits. So should kids under 18.

Barb and Jenna are both adults, but neither did much more than campaign for their father. Each of them are allegedly fairly liberal-minded, if not Democrats.

Let them acquit or hang themselves according to their political behavior. Until then, no harm - no foul.

--p!

[JI7]

27. excuse me ? they aren't fucking Democrats if they wanted him to win

and the only reason people say they are Democrats is because of the rumors of their partying. i wish liberals would see this for the insult that it is which is that liberals are nothing more than just irreponsible types looking to have a good time.

even Pickles isn't a liberal. yeah, we hear she is prochoice. but in these times it's not enough to just personally be prochoice.

[Gemini Cat]

36. Exactly. Thank-you. Well said! nt

[Dogmudgeon]

40. You're NOT excused. You didn't even read the post.

Since you appear to have missed several words in my post, here it is again, with the relevant missed words re-formatted in bold.

Unless they're outspoken (like Pickles), family members should be off-limits. So should kids under 18.

Barb and Jenna are both adults, but neither did much more than campaign for their father. Each of them are allegedly fairly liberal-minded, if not Democrats.

Let them acquit or hang themselves according to their political behavior. Until then, no harm - no foul.

We don't know what party they belong to. They MAY be Democrats for all we know, though I would assume they're Republicans. Partying has nothing to do with it. Chelsea Clinton, for instance, may even be a Republican.

As for any implied "insult", that's something you invented in your own head along with the analogy that partying equals liberalism.

It's becoming impossible to say anything in this forum any more without someone jumping down your throat because s/he didn't read the post after the automatic rage kicked in. Feh.

--p!

[comsymp]

51. That's quite a contradiction in your post

Barb and Jenna are both adults, but neither did much more than campaign for their father.

....

Let them acquit or hang themselves according to their political behavior


Maybe our understandings of the term "political behavior" differ, but I can't see how one can seriously suggest that publicly stumping for a candidate on the campaign trail, then speaking in favor of said candidate at the National convention, then hosting the highly publicized Young Republicans Can't Get Down Night or WTFever it was called, can be defined as anything but "political behavior. What additional criteria do you believe they should have to meet before being labeled as supporters of this Admin? Furthermore, I'd love to know how you can classify these activities as not being "outspoken."

And I'd love to see some cites which back up the allegations of being "allegedly fairly liberal-minded, if not Democrats."

[July]

62. Appearing on TV for the national convention

qualifies as outspoken to me.

Most people never get the opportunity to have such a forum.

No-one would have noticed or cared if they'd stayed home.

But they chose to be out in front to support their father. If they're liberal-minded, they have yet to say anything that suggests it. What they HAVE said supported the continued national disaster that is known as "President" George W. Bush.

[karynnj]

69. Liberal minded - I doubt we know enough to know where they stand

It would be a real RW POV to say they are liberal because they are behaving badly and drinking a lot. They really said little more than vote for my dad, we love him. Contrast the level of involvement with the Democratic kids.

Politically, Vanessa and Alex Kerry, Kate Edwards, and Andre and Chris Heinz all talked about issues that were important to them - that their (step)fathers were running on. Vanessa, in particular, was one of the best Kerry surrogates, able to explain his positions on issues very well. It would be fair to say that the girls suppoted most of their fathers' goals. They also said they loved their respective dads, but they really didn't need to - the love and affection was obvious as each spoke. The 2 Heinz brothers were good spokesmen and their obvious regard for Kerry, who married their mom when they were adults, spoke well for Kerry.

[fishnfla]

24. There unit would have a huge bullseye on it

That would put other soldiers at greater risk.

I think the talk is just rhetoric

[deadparrot]

26. They were paid campaign workers.

I'm all for leaving the kids out of it...until they become paid members of the campaign staff.

[Dan]

39. I have a different perspective..

I believe that we have reached the point where that there should be a requirement - that to serve in Congress or as the President - an immediate family member(s) should be in the armed forces. And, I do not mean, sitting on a carrier two hundred miles away. I mean as a combat arms soldier. Alternatively, if the Congress person actually served in the military in a combat arms field - then no blood payment required with their young.

As long as there is no personal pain to sending the poor and middle-class kids to die, Congress and future presidents will send our children to die without concern.

I listen sometimes to various people within the DU complain or express concern about their respective children - and that they might be drafted. And, I wonder, what is your most precious possession? TO me, my child. If there is a draft, my son will not go - I would prefer that he go to prison or become a permanent exile of this country. The world is too small for the continuation of the nation-state mentality.

It is amazing that the members that promoted this insanity that we call a war in the middle-east (which I believe will spread) all ensured that they would not have first hand experience in the Vietnam conflict - where they could personally experience the pain.

Bush is insane, the drugs fried his mind...but even worse, he is totally indifferent not only to those that don't support him, he is indifferent to the world. The only thing that would make an impression on Bush (and his administration) would be - if the people of the United States turned his ass over to be charged,(and hopefully executed) as a war criminal. And, maybe, just maybe that might be the only way of closing Pandora's box that we (72% that supported this mess) so wanted to open.

But it probably won't happen - probably the best that we could hope for is that after they are out of office - that some righteous legal body will snatch&grab them over to Iraq to stand trial. You may notice that I believe that the 'freedom fighters' in Iraq are going to chase our asses out of their country.

Dammit, it makes you so mad to realize, that if our oil hadn't been under their sand, we would not be doing this.

[Dogmudgeon]

41. That's been argued several times

And not just at DU. It has been a frequent theme of what societies have expected service to be.

Requiring military service of a family member is a vicarious demand. Although having some service experience or a loved one in uniform gives you a different perspective, it does not necessarily make you more sensitive to issues of life and death.

For a long time, only military veterans were allowed to hold office; in other cultures, only military veterans were citizens. Robert Heinlein goes into some depth about this requirement in his book Starship Troopers. The movie also does a good job of explaining this idea, using Michael Ironside as Heinlein's doppelgänger.

I do think that a lot of DUers are over-charged on outrage. The situation is conducive to it -- we have a "Commander in Chief" who is a ninny, and several other hobbyists (like Rumsfeld) actually running the war. They have no concern for human life, although they shed crocodile tears over it when the life is that of a zygote or embryo. It's been a massive clusterfuck from the very first, and innocent soldiers and civilians alike are dying for it.

Invoking the military service of war mongers (and their family members) is good politics, but would make bad policy.

--p!

[Skittles]

42. I had already done four years in the military when I was their age

these girls campaigned for their warmongering piece of shit father- understand?

[Hello_Kitty]

44. Same here!

Hi Skittles! Are you still working the night shift?

:hi:

[caligirl]

43. As daaily show point we need to win this war, why send them?

[leetrisck]

45. It's a volunteer military and the "girls" have trust funds

They do not need our defense - they will do what they please.

[Vickers]

46. It's not about them joining. It's about hearing the lame-ass excuses

George would have to provide if asked about it. They will never join, but it would be nice to have him put on the spot about it. It will put in to sharp relief his TRUE feelings about "us and them."

FTR, I was a Staff Sergeant when I was their age. :)

[salin]

47. Why would your father start a war that he didn't believe was

important, or serious enough to send you?

That is the point. There was no dialogue on that level at the onset of this mess. There was no public discussion per - is this something we believe so strongly in that we would send our own children? If not, then should we be going to war? Especially a war of choice (most folks now know that the "premptive strike" justification was never real in the first place)?

My late father was in college - a working class son - making good.... who left college to volunteer to fight in WWII before there was a draft. He was compelled to do so, because the cause was that serious. I would suggest that were he president at that time and his kids had been fighting age, for that war he would have sent us well. Again, it was that serious.

He was also against Vietnam and Gulf War I. Didn't see those as being imperative to our country's national security.

So it isn't so much about Jenna and Barbara as it is a question of why in the world he would start a war that he didn't feel was so serious as to compel his own children to fight. When leaders do not put that bar so high - as they make such life and death decisions - then they begin to treat those who volunteer (or, as we see in some recruiting stories those who are coerced to "volunteer") cavalierly - and treat their lives as willfully expendable. That, is a tragedy.

[quaoar]

48. You want him to compel his children to fight?

[leftofthedial]

50. they campaigned for him

they are bushturds and deserve far worse than we can dish out here.

[leesa]

53. They campaigned for him. They supported him. They should go.

[DoYouEverWonder]

55. Even if they don't join the military

They should at least go over to visit the troops once in awhile. They are sort of pretty girls and I bet that the troops that still support Bush and even some of the ones that don't would be thrilled.

54. enlisting

If participation in the military for every person for 2 years of their early adulthood was mandatory, there wouldn't be this rush to war by maniacs like bush, and people wouldn't vote for him if they thought they could lose their own children.

The military shouldn't be made up of people who "need the money".

[mandomom]

57. Because they don't speak out against him, that's why.

[drbtg1]

58. It isn't what the daughters are doing as it is what the father is doing

Bushco was quite happy to allow his daughters to be used as props at the convention to attract younger people to his cause. Now he wants to attract younger people to his war but won't use his daughters as props here.

The question has been asked on the net but now needs to be asked in the MSM: "Mr. President, if you won't ask your daughters to part of this effort you believe in, how can you justify other parents doing the same?"

[Toots]

61. Yes they both actively campaigned for their father

That means to me they buy lock stock and barrel his propaganda. They should be the first in line to enlist.

[Ladyinblack]

64. I agree

A good and appropriate response. The president who is so willing to send our children to war should be also willing to send his own. If he is not then we should not be there. My guess is we would not be at war if his own had to go or if he had to risk himself. Of course we know about his willingness to serve from his past.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

63. the apple never falls far from the tree...they campaigned for him......

than they should enlist to support his policies...back up with actions....it is called "having principles"

oh i forgot they DON"T have any principles...never mind

[Mairead]

65. "why should Jenna and Barbara be pressured into enlisting?"

Because they're benefitting from the Bush family's ill-gotten wealth. Because they're keeping silent about the Bush family's crimes.

If they were making it on their own, repudiating their daddy's crimes, speaking out...then okay, they'd be doing all they can.

But they're not. They're doing what one would expect of daughters of that pathology: enjoying their privilege and ducking all responsibility.

So that makes them more than fair game, in my book.

[karynnj]

66. Totally agree

I have no opinion on what Bush's daughters should do. I think rather than the Bush twins, the emphasis should be on the Young Republican neo-con leaders, who will presumably growup to be the Karl Roves, house, Senate, and future presidents. They are among the strongest supporters of the war and they should be told they shouldn't haveother priorities.

However, as intelligent people, they will see that none of the Republicans who supported the VN war but avoided it paid a political price. They would also see that war experience can be used against you as it was for McCain.

[whatever4]

67. How old are they?

Are they old enough to form educated opinions? Are they educated?

Then they have no excuse for excusing this sorry excuse for a president. ESPECIALLY a president that is their father.

Every human being that passively sits by while these events unfold, allowing it to happen rather than saying or doing anything, when they could, is to be held accountable. Even them. Even those barely more than teenage girls.

They know better. They just do not care. They are in a position to not have to care, and sit comfortably in it. If just a small fraction of those that COULD speak up DID speak up, NONE of this would have happened.

They support their father? Then most certainly one of them ought to be in Iraq. Or don't they believe in Democracy? Serving their nation? No.

That's for the little people exclusively. And we are to accept that, and that is what this is all about. They can, and will, be blamed for passively enjoying their status as not-so little people, those spoiled little twins. Funny...I wonder if they can possibly realize what their father has allowed done to so many other little girls. And boys. And through his own monstrosities, he's brought those horrors that much closer to THEM. How many in this nation hate this man? and his family? What's going to happen to those pretty little twin girls when all hell breaks out...and we all know who to blame? Can you say "let them eat cake"? Who among the rich will be safe?

But for the grace of God...but their dad talks to God, so it's okay. He's got the right god.

Maybe they just fear him...they should

[theboss]

70. I would never publicly criticize my father

We don't agree on everything but if he were in public life and I disagreed with him on something, I would do it in private and that is it.

Ron Reagan, Jr. seems to have this down. He never publicly criticizes his dad - in fact, he publicly praises him - even though they clearly had different political beliefs.

[whatever4]

75. Yes friend, but... were he a mass murderer?

Not to be a flake, I do see your point. But, I see this as an extreme case. To me, anyone willing to sit silently by in this situation is virtually the same as witnessing a murder, and doing nothing. Even if you can't stop it, you can at least tell someone. That's how I feel about people in and close to this admin who are still just doing their jobs. Accepting whatever daddy says. In this case, it's going along with a mass murderer. At some point, and don't ask me what it is except we passed it a long time ago, it was time to speak up. If you're a human being, that is.

I count them as too young and too spoiled, and honestly, hardly anyone at that age has the moral fortitude to do anything like make publicly embarrassing statements. It's certainly not a type of outstandingly moral behavior to expect from the the offspring of THIS president. Facing the truth as a real leader should? No. From the likes of him and his genes, we can expect just the opposite, liars and cheats. No noble leaders. Certainly not honestly.

[Imagevision]

72. At least no pics of them falling down drunk?

[faithfulcitizen]

73. missing the point...no need to defend them...

it's the fact that *he* wouldn't encourage them to go, not that they should enlist.

[Vinca]

74. It's beside the point whether or not the Bush twins enlist.

What's important is making the comparison between the privileged - who, for the most part, avoid military service - and the people who have enlisted for reasons such as college funding, a promised job, etc. I doubt there are many wealthy people serving. If the draft had remained operational, maybe the folks in power would have thought twice before sending our young off to die for what amounts to a pack of lies.

[hayu_lol]

77. Actually, because of past Repugnant actions...the Bobsy Twins are ...

fair game.

It was Rush who proclaimed the 12 year old Chelsea Clinton "a dog."

It was John Derbyshire, a contributing editor to The National Review who in an op-ed piece, called for the death of Chelsea Clinton to prevent the spreading of the Clinton genes.

Jenna & Barbara: Party girls

Chelsea: An Oxford scholar and now attorney....

What a comparison.

The dim-witted twins are fair game.

[rman]

76. So why don't Jenna and Barbara come out and say their father is a fucking

idiot?

[WI_DEM]

79. The problem is that they openly campaigned and supported him

so if they do that they must also support his war--and yes, then they should enlist.

[whatever4]

80. Yeah, what you said

That's true, they DID support him, very publically.

But they're just too "good" for service, too high quality. Military is for the ordinary folks. All that bravery and honor. All that public service, all that duty. That's for "other" sorts of people. yeah.