GOP Propaganda: "National Sales Tax" ("Fair Tax") "Supercharges" economy

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

Lies, bullshit, misleading information...Nancy Pelosi has consistently opposed this, and the article suggests that it "meets her vriteria."

ON SEPTEMBER 30th, Bush's "Tax Advisory Panel" will turn in their recommendations for a "fair and simple tax code."

The "National Sales Tax"...now going under the name of "Fair Tax"...WILL be on the list.

Do some research on this. If Bush gets his way, you WILL bleed every time you open your wallet or write a check.



http://merrill-bender.redstate.org/story/2005/8/16/102255/046

Flat Tax has Flat Tires for Our Economy; The Fair Tax Supercharges
By: Merrill Bender · Section: Diaries

Steve Forbes has published a new book called the "Flat Tax Revolution" where he promotes his old 1996 Presidential campaign concept of reducing your Income tax filing to a flat 17% rate and a simple postcard style form.

Mr. Forbes has resurrected from the auto junk yard of tax reform a car that won't run and is easier for special interests to hijack and steal later on. He is trying to inflate the tires of this old reform idea but the engine in this car will not provide enough energy to rev up our economy or go the distance to create quality jobs for American Families.

Mr. Forbes old (Flat Tax)Car is up against John Linder's and Neil Boortz's new Book "The Fair Tax Book" ( New York Times #1 Best Seller) which lays out a well researched Legislative Package which has been fined tuned to provide a Progressive Tax Reform and Tax simplification solution that truly supports American Workers, American Families while supercharging our American Economy in a way that fights outsourcing and brings American manufacturing back to US Shores.

The Flat Tax leaves in place the most REGRESSIVE tax on the working poor and Middle Class. 7.65% is pulled out of the First Dollar and every dollar there after that Average American Families Make. Another 7.65% is paid by their employers and many Economists say that suppresses wages and prevents low wage earners from earning more to suport their families. The Fair Tax eliminates the Regressive Payroll tax and still fully funds Social Security and Medicare.

For many of the same arguments that Steve Forbes presents for supporting the Flat Tax, The Fair Tax does it ten times better. and solves so many more of our tax and economic problems affecting the working poor and the middle class in America. The Fair Tax, Untaxes the poor by eliminating the payroll tax and giving them a true net tax rate of 0%.( with FairTax Prebate)

The Fair Tax is a fully researched and documented package that has already been put into full legislative form and is waiting in the garage of Congress, ready to rev up our economy and give every American Family a raise in take home pay. The AFFT (www.fairtax.org) has spent the last ten years and over 22 million dollars in focus group studies, polls and economic research to see what works well economically and works well for American families.

The better answer to Steve Forbes call for a 17% Flat income tax and keeping a 15.3% total Payroll tax - is The Fair Tax which takes ZERO Income tax and ZERO payroll tax out of your paycheck and allows you to take home 100% of your paycheck in take home pay.
That is actually what will happen under an up to date and ready to go Legislative Package- HR 25/ S25 commonly called the Fair Tax- www.fairtax.org. The Fair Tax Legislation has 37 Congressional Co-sponsors including the powerful #2 man in the House- Congressman Tom Delay.
Print This Story
Aug 16th, 2005: 10:22:55

The original Sponsor of the Legislation Congressman John Linder of Georgia started in the 106th Congress and has included the Bill in the 109th Congress as HR25. Support continues to grow as more people know the facts about the Fair Tax.

Congressman Linder has written a new book with Talk Show host Neil Boortz called The Fair Tax Book, Saying Goodbye to the Income tax and the IRS which outlines in a very factual way the strong economics that support the Fair Tax research and shows how this new simpler retail sales tax is better for American Families, giving them more take home pay even after paying the federal sales tax and buying all the same things they bought the year before under the Income tax.

Mr. Forbes Flat Tax car (Lemon) only eliminates about half of the $225 to $250 billion dollars in tax compliance costs where the Fair Tax eliminates a much stronger 90% of compliance costs. Mr. Forbes leaves 90% of the cumbersome IRS tax code because even under a Flat tax, 90% of the code determines the definitions and calculations of the income to be taxed. Then you tax it at 17%.

Mr. Forbes does not have a group of over 75 nationally known economists writing letters to Congress in favor of his idea. The Fair Tax has that support. http://fairtaxreform.blogspot.com/2005/04/geter-done-economists-nationwide. html

He also leaves in place a tax code that is more likely to be corrupted by lobbyists and special interests in the future. Lobbyists who will continue to manipulate the code to rob Peter to pay Paul. Under the Lemon Law he should return this car to the used car lot he got it from.

American families want a new tax reform car that is safe and well tested for the economic roads of a new century. Two of our largest states operate their state budgets on a sales tax with no income tax, Florida and Texas.. These 2 States are ranked 15 and 19th in the world for their economic output and a Sales tax works for all their State functions.

The Fair Tax is " Family Friendly Tax Reform " whose time has come. http://fairtaxreform.blogspot.com/2005/02/give-every-american-family-raise. html

The Fair Tax package eliminates all Personal and Business income taxes, payroll taxes, AMT, and Death taxes. Due to these eliminations, prices will drop 22 to 25% and then the Fair Tax replaces them all with a revenue neutral federal retail sales tax on new products and services. Consumers will pay about the same as they do now.

American business and American labor should take strong note of the fact that exports are not taxed; thus the Fair Tax will provide a boom to American manufacturing because American products will be 22% lower in price for sale overseas. We can't compete with low wage countries but we can compete with lower taxes on business, products and services made in America. The result is a boom to the economy and a boom to better paying manufacturing jobs in America.

The Fair Tax Legislative package has been well researched and is well supported in the research section of their web site - www.fairtax.org.

Dr. Dale Jorgensen of Harvard University has researched the economic impact of the Fair Tax. Dr. Jorgensen calculates a 10.5% growth in the economy in the first year of the Fair Tax.

The Tax Reform debate and the research is far beyond the simple discussion of Flat Tax, VAT or National Sales Tax, though some will still go through the motions. A complete package is waitng in the wings ready to go - The Fair Tax.

The Fair Tax is much more than a National Sales Tax, it has additional provisions that result in prices dropping 22 to 25% before you add in their NST. Consumers will pay about the same for products and services as they did before but take home a much bigger paycheck that is 100% free of federal income or payroll tax.

In addition, the Fair Tax has provisions to maintain Progressivity by providing a prebate of the sales tax up to the poverty line to every family. For a family of 4 they receive $479/m for a Couple they receive $357/m. An Average family of 4 making $50,000/yr will have more than $7500 in additional take home pay and after tax purchasing power under the Fair Tax there by making it both progressive and fair. The more you spend the higher your effective tax rate. Supporters say, "Those that Know the Facts Love the Fair Tax". More importantly it is the only comprehensive tax reform proposal that eliminates the income tax and the more regressive payroll tax.

The Fair Tax meets all the guidelines set down by President Bush for his tax reform panel including promoting home ownership and supporting charities.

Steve Forbes has commented on the Fair Tax and misquotes how it works, his biggest error is to try and scare people away form the Fair tax and to his Flat Tax by saying families that buy a $100,000 home will now pay with the Fair Tax $130,000; UNTRUE.

Under the Fair tax the costs to Builders drops the price of the new home from $100,000 to $75,000 ( Economic research proves it); Than you add in a Federal Retail sales Tax of 30% Exclusive (23% inclusive equivalent) The New price will be $97,500. You pay about the Same and the taxes are paid. That Family also took home 30% more in take home pay and can afford that house much more easily than under the Income tax.

In addition, the Fair Tax also meets the 3 standards set by House Minority Leader, Nancy Pelosi in her open letter to the President on Tax Reform sent 12/15/04; 1) Tax Simplification; 2)Tax Fairness(Progressivity); 3) Revenue neutral.

This Car is waiting in the garage gassed up and ready to go. Democrats and Republicans need to climb on board and drive our economy in a positive and new direction with the Fair Tax Legislative package.

The Fair Tax has been built from the ground up, it has been test-driven and shared with many researchers, economists, average Americans and American Organizations.

Supporters include 560,000 members of Americans for Fair Taxation, 350,000 members of The National Tax Payer's Union, and is outlined as a legislative agenda item of the 6 million member American Federation of Farm Bureaus.

The Fair Tax has been fined tuned and polished for the 21st century. It is an economic engine waiting to rev up our economy and send us down the road better able to compete fairly in the global market place and to grow a financially stronger "ownership society" at home.

[OrlandoGator]

1. I support the Flat Tax.

I think we should definitely be taxed on how much we spend, not how much we make. Citizens should be rewarded for making wise spending decisions and with a flat tax, the government is held accountable for balancing budgets and maintaining a strong economy.

[Dogmudgeon]

2. Such a tax penalizes the poor

The poor can not make "wise" spending decisions because all their spending decisions are made by necessity -- they must spend money on food, rent, etc. Non-disposable income approaches 100% for poor people.

The rich do not have to spend much of their money on the necessities of life, and the richer the person, the less they have to pay as a percentage of their wealth. Such a person would pay an effective tax rate that would approach 0%.

It would be nice if poor people could save and invest, but it often isn't possible, and it's seldom from deliberate decisions made by the poor.

--p!

[OrlandoGator]

4. Most flat tax plans have exemptions for life necessities.

And your math is incorrect about rich peoples' tax rate approaching 0%. That would only be if they never bought anything.

Right now, people who have inherited large sums of money only pay the income tax once. After that, they only pay taxes on their interest income. So a flat tax would raise money from Paris Hilton every time she buys a new Ferrari.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

6. Sorry, this is ridiculous.

This business about "the rich will finally pay their fair share of taxes" is more GOP spin. DON'T believe it.

[Dogmudgeon]

9. Approaching zero

That's a math concept -- the concept of the limit. It's also important in economics.

The richer a person is, the lower the percentage of his/her wealth goes to survival. The proportion approaches zero.

The flat sales tax is, in fact, highly regressive. Paris Hilton's interest income is probably much greater than to cost of a new Farrari. Spending money is a minor economic pursuit for the super-rich; consumer purchasing is almost negligable to the billionaire set.

It's a seductive idea, the flat tax on sales, but it's an empty promise.

--p!

[Ravenseye]

17. I disagree with your approach, but not your conclusion

It is a seductive idea, and it is an empty promise.

What people try and push is the whole aspect of exemptions. First they talk about making things like food exempt. Ok. Then clothing. Fine. Then housing, but only if it's under a certain number. Uh.

Then lobbyists get going and the system gets nuts. All of a sudden there are riders on unrelated bills with things making speedboats exempt from taxes, and first class airline tickets exempt etc.

Next thing you know the most powerfull people who are able to pay lobbyiests are making 100% of their money and practically everythign they spend money on is exempt, while the regular joe schmoe is dutifully paying his 25% on everythign he buys that isn't the generic brand of food.

It's a nice pretty concept, but it's just an easier way for the rich people to not pay taxes, and screw the poor people into not just dying to protect their money by serving in the military, but paying for it too.

[MadHound]

15. So rather than enacting a regressive tax that will hurt the poor

And the middle class disproportionately, let us work to reform the income tax to charge the rich more, re-enact the estate tax, pump up capital gains, etc. etc. Also penalize those who shelter their money in off shore accounts.

Sorry, but national sales tax will unfairly harm everybody excepting the rich, it is the nature of a regressive tax. Besides, Paris baby could always buy that Ferrari out of country and ship it here, thus bypassing said sales tax.

[OneTwentyoNine]

22. Lets see,that would be about 50-100 MILLION rebate checks per month

Abolish the IRS and hire ten times as many people to process all those millions of "rebate" checks that will have to be sent out each month.Talk about a bureaucracy and an unbelievable nightmare.

I can blow ten foot holes in every ridiculous expectation of the em.."Fair Tax". Remember don't you dare call it the flat tax or Neal Boortz will come out and rub his bald head on you till you take it back.

[OrlandoGator]

27. Why would you be issuing rebates if the tax is never assessed?

Every flat tax plan I've ever seen has an extensive list of non-taxable items that are life necessities.

Whatever, it's obvious that you guys are just fine with our beautiful tax system the way it is.

To me, taxing sales makes perfect sense. If rich people want to "hoard their wealth" and never buy anything, that's their prerogative. It seems to me that that would be an awfully boring way to go about being filthy rich, but okay.

[high density]

29. The end result is that the rich will pay less.

You can't get around that fact. And the rest of us will probably end up paying more to make up for the shortfall. All of the flat tax proposals require a 25-40% tax rate to keep up with the current receipts, so that seems like it would throw our economy even deeper into the toilet by stifling demand on goods with vastly higher prices.

[OrlandoGator]

31. Rich people don't buy things?

I'm not being sarcastic, but the only rich people I see benefiting from a flat tax are those who never buy anything.

[OneTwentyoNine]

38. This ISN'T a flat tax....its a NATIONAL SALES TAX...hell of a difference

Flat tax simple means the tax situation stays the same but we only have two brackets and little or no deductions. The IRS is still in place and you file a tax return like you always have.

The Fair Tax is a National sales tax of 23%. All your current State and local sales tax will STILL be in effect and ADDED to the 23%. Depending on your State that could be a little more or a hell of alot more. With the FT the IRS would be abolished,you would never send in another return and there would be zero money taken out of your paycheck--you'd get it all. Oh,BTW you also get to keep paying State income tax if your State has it--ours does in Kansas.

On the surface it sounds good--who the hell likes the IRS anyway? When you start crunching the numbers its a joke unless you make a pretty damn good living. Super rich assholes like Rush make out like a bandit,some people will save some or break even. A HELL of alot of people who work their asses off but are at the poverty level or slightly above will get the SHAFT. They will get that "rebate" check each month which somewhat offsets the huge tax you pay on necessities like food but then you get nailed for 30%,35% or maybe even 40% on EVERY purchase you make--that means goods and services.

In most every state labor is not taxed,under the FT plan you pay on everything.So..the next time the sewer guy comes out and unclogs the drain you can add 35-40% to his bill that you never used to pay--everything will be taxed,no exceptions.

[magnetism]

40. If everything currently being raised is a bad idea...

is there a good idea for reform or is status quo acceptable?

:shrug:

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

44. The 23% is a myth, a lie, an impossibility. It would be 40-50% plus state.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,131693,00.html

"There is a battle going on in the administration between those who think he should jump into this and those who are afraid of big ideas," he said.

But while some think the system sounds good, critics dispute Linder's expected tax rate of 23 percent. William Gale, an economic expert at the Brookings Institution (search), estimated that to replace the income tax, the sales tax rate would have to be more than 26 percent. Other economists place the number at 40 or 50 percent.

Adding to this chorus, Weinstein suggested that 30 to 36 percent would be more realistic, and said he worried about the effect of a national sales tax on consumer activity.

"A considerably high tax may dampen consumption. Quite frankly we got out of the last recession through consumer spending," he said.

[OneTwentyoNine]

47. The 23% is the "sucker number" that they found they could lure idiots..

Into buying in to this Fair Tax fallacy. Of course it can't stay at that amount,people who have really looked into this joke know that full well. For those who don't know that 23% also covers your social security withholding.

Does ANYONE in their right mind think that you could run this country and fund SS with a mere 23% national sales tax?

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

51. SS, aside, they also can't "replace" the IRS with 23%...

This is a Nancy Pelosi press release on the subject. I'm going to post the whole thing because it's outside of the "four paragraphs of copyright" rule on DU. She WANTS you to read this (it's from November, when it was still being called the "National Sales Tax," but rest assured...N.S.T. and "Fair Tax" are one and the same):

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 23, 2004

Pelosi: ‘National Sales Tax Would be Burden for Middle Class Americans, But Boon for the Wealthy’

http://democraticleader.house.gov/press/releases.cfm?pressReleaseID=701

Washington, D.C. -- House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi held a news conference in the Capitol this afternoon with Congressmen Charles Rangel of New York, and John Spratt and James Clyburn, both of South Carolina, to denounce a Republican plan for a national sales tax. Below are Pelosi’s remarks and a fact sheet about the proposal:

“Today, we are here to highlight one of the many clear contrasts between Democrats and Republicans: Republicans want to undermine our American values of prosperity and fairness with a new national sales tax of at least 30 percent and as high as 50 percent or more on all goods, including homes and cars.

“A national sales tax would be a burden for middle class Americans, but a boon for the wealthy. Families with children would lose their current tax deductions, and seniors would essentially be taxed twice.

“This proposal is ludicrous and should be dismissed outright. Yet Speaker Hastert wrote about the national sales tax and the flat tax in his new book, saying ‘both of these ideas are worthy of consideration.’ And Majority Leader Tom DeLay is co-sponsoring the bill, and has said: ‘It is high time the debate about the flat tax and a national consumption tax moved out of Washington think tanks and into American living rooms. That's why I have signedon to Congressman John Linder's proposal to scrap the current tax code altogether and replace it with a national sales tax.’

“The Republican plan would make it harder for middleclass families to make ends meet. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of prosperity. For example, cars that cost $20,000 would cost an additional $6,000 under this proposal. Just wait until the car dealers hear about this proposal. Prescription drugs that cost $100 would now cost $130. New homes, insurance premiums, brokerage fees, and gasoline would all be heavily taxed to replace revenue brought in by the current tax system.

“It would wipe out our system of progressive taxation. A national sales tax would undermine the American value of fairness.

“The American people should be aware that the Republicans’ primary tax agenda is a new national sales tax.”

The Republican Plan to Raise Taxes on the Middle Class

All over the country, middle class Americans are being squeezed byRepublican policies that have lost 1.7 million private sector jobs; allowed the price of health care, education, and gas to skyrocket; and created record deficits. Now Republicans are proposing a new national sales tax that would increase taxes for the typical middle class by about 50 percent. Democrats know that approach is wrong. Instead of raising taxes on the middle class, Democrats have pledged to promote prosperity and fairness by enacting middle class tax relief, creating new jobs, and eliminating tax loopholes so all Americans pay their fair share.

GOP SALES TAX HIKES A FAMILY’S TAX BURDEN BY 50 PERCENT

The new GOP national sales tax would replace all personal and corporate income taxes, Social Security, Medicare, and payroll taxes, and gift and estate taxes with a new national sales tax on goods like groceries, clothing, new home sales and apartment rents, and health care services. This new GOP tax would be applied on top of existing state sales taxes. This proposal would increase taxes by about $3,200 a year for 80 percent of taxpayers, and potentially more for some families.

MIDDLE CLASS FAMILIES SQUEEZED AGAIN

Families with children. Families with children are hit the hardest, as this proposal would eliminate all the current law tax benefits for these families, including the child tax credit. A middle class family with four children with a combined income of $65,000 would face an increase of more than $5,000 in their tax liability.

New homeowners. The Republican tax hike proposal would eliminate the tax deduction that families get on their home mortgages and apply this new sales percent tax to the cost of a home. If a family buys a new house listed for $150,000, the new tax brings the actual purchase price to $195,000.

Jump in property taxes. The Republican sales tax hike would require states to send an additional $300 billion to the federal government in sales taxes – a tax increase that states would immediately pass on to residents. Arkansas, Delaware, Kentucky, Hawaii, and New Jersey could all see property tax increases higher than 400 percent. The lowest state property tax hike possible – in New Hampshire – would still be more than 70 percent.

Gas and electricity. The average family would pay an additional 60 cents a gallon for gasoline – a new tax that will hit families in rural areas particularly hard. Families with large home heating or cooling bills also will be harmed.

SENIORS FACE NEW TAXES

Beneficiaries pay twice for Social Security and pension benefits. Most Social Security benefits and a portion of pension payments are exempt from income tax. But this proposal requires seniors to pay the new sales tax – meaning that seniors are now being taxed twice for their Social Security, once when they pay the payroll taxes and again when they pay the sales taxes.

Threaten Solvency of the Medicare Trust Fund. Medicare would be required to pay the new sales tax as well, forcing the program into insolvency in five years. If this proposal were enacted, Medicare would run out of funds in 2009.

Undermines pension coverage. The new GOP sales tax hike would reduce the incentives employers currently get for offering their employees a pension plan. The American Academy of Actuaries has concluded that “pension plans would quickly diminish in number and size and gradually disappear” if a consumption tax, such as the national sales tax were enacted as a substitute to the current income tax.

[Telly Savalas]

43. The marginal propensity to consume goes down as income goes up.

Rich people save and invest a much higher percentage of their income than poor people.

[OneTwentyoNine]

37. Guess you really haven't read about the rebate checks have you?

Thats part of the Fair Tax system. Go over to their web site and see for yourself,you get so much per month(depending on what you make)up to the poverty level for your situation. How many MILLIONS of checks per month do you think that would be?? How many thousands of government workers would it take to monitor that mess?

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

45. Rebate checks for everyone making UNDER $18K a year.

THAT'S who would get the rebate checks.

[getmeouttahere]

3. Gee, and I thought punishing the poor...

was only a repuke policy!

If the economic playing field were even slightly more even, rewarding people for making wise spending decisions might be fair. But the fact is millions of Americans don't even have decisions to make...they are just barely making it or aren't at all.

[OrlandoGator]

5. Wow, it only took two replies before I was accused of pushing GOP policy.

Some "big tent" you got here.

[rfranklin]

7. But it is a GOP tax policy....

It has been shown to be regressive by every measure.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

8. Exactly...

The BEST way to evaluate "The National Sales Tax," "The Fair Tax," "The Flat Tax" is to investigate sources OTHER THAN Steve Forbes.

The site quoted in my original post...RedState.org...is publishing DAILY propaganda pieces on "The Fair Tax."

John Linder (R-GA) is CURRENTLY presenting himself as the architect of the "Fair Tax," but he's NOT. He's the architect of "The National Sales Tax," and the GOP no longer calls it that because IT GOT NEGATIVE PRESS.

They CHANGED the name to "The Fair Tax" because "The National Sales Tax" GOT NEGATIVE PRESS.

ANYONE who thinks that "The Flat Tax" or the "National Sales Tax" will be used to "stick it to the MAN" is living in a seriously delusional state. The middle class would bleed like a stuck pig, and Bush's "base" would receive the greatest gift of his presidency.

ALSO...as a reminder to anyone who has forgotten...THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION LIES.

Read this piece from Paul Krugman:

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/opinion/12414223.htm

Posted on Thu, Aug. 18, 2005

A lesson for the future

By Paul Krugman

The New York Times

The Democratic leadership in Congress defied the punditocracy -- which was very much in favor of privatization -- by refusing to cave in, and the American people made it clear that they like Social Security the way it is. But the campaign for privatization provided an object lesson in how the administration sells its policies: by misrepresenting its goals, lying about the facts and abusing its control of government agencies. These were the same tactics used to sell both tax cuts and the Iraq war.

And there are two reasons to study that lesson. One is to be prepared for whatever comes next on Bush's agenda. Despite the tough talk about Iran, I don't think he can propose another war -- there aren't enough troops to fight the wars we already have. But there's still room for another big domestic initiative, probably tax reform.

Forewarned is forearmed: The real goals of reform won't be as advertised, the administration will say things about the current system that aren't true, and the Treasury Department will function in a purely partisan capacity.

[Broken Acorn]

14. I don't care who's policy it is...

it's a bad idea.

A tax on luxury items for the super wealthy won't go as far in revenues as taxes on wealth and income. That is why they are all for it.

[Dogmudgeon]

16. Look, OG, you don't have to take it as a personal insult

Neither of us jumped down your throat; I know that nobody's perfect, and not a week goes by that at least two or three people don't put me wise to something I may have overlooked or just neglected. I've probably made a fool of myself more often than Bush has been drunk. And I've learned more hard-headed truth around here than I've had time to forget from other places.

(But if you really want to learn the meaning of being attacked, bring up the topic of Astrology, UFOs, or Bigfoot.)

Tax and fiscal policy are very strange creatures, and even economists can miss important points from them. It's laudable that you want a more fair, more rational system, but it's also the Republicans' area of expertise: the manufacture and sale of economic snake oil. Flat taxes are considered snake oil because they punish the poor.

And since flat taxes actually have been tried, we've had the opportunity to see the results, and they weren't pretty.

The tent is very big -- but there's always mixing, arguing, compromise and conflict in the tent. We rank-and-file Democrats are an unruly and anarchic bunch -- but would you prefer that we be wimps? Nobody has all the answers, and nobody has to be perfectly "on message". It's the Democratic spirit that counts.

No one will hate or ridicule you for being duped, being naive, or being wrong. And if they do, aim low and kick dirty.

:evilgrin:

--p!

[blondeatlast]

48. Look up the "Heritage Foundation" on Google, then search the

site under "tax, taxation", etc. Nevermind, I'll link below.

I challenge you to find any reputable LW resource, in print or on line, pushing for this system.

There's a reason this was labeled a RW talking point--here's why:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/index.cfm

[rman]

13. You mean you support the limitless hoarding of wealth

And you want to tax every penny of those who have to spend all their income on necessities.

[OrlandoGator]

18. "Hoarding limitless wealth" is meaningless if you never spend it.

n/t

[high density]

30. ???????????????

Narrowest. view. evar!

[OrlandoGator]

32. It's not narrow. I just don't understand the arguments here.

People are saying that a flat tax (national sales tax) would encourage rich people to "hoard their wealth" so as to avoid taxation.

I interpret that as meaning that multi-millionaires would never buy anything. That seems like an inaccurate assessment.

What's the point of having money if you never spend it on anything?

[blondeatlast]

49. Since you don't understand these arguments, why not evaluate

some progressive writings on the subject?

Think of the credibility gained if you use the arguments presented by progressives for your agenda--that is, if you can find any that support it.

[Rainscents]

19. Anything GOP come up with I don't trust and I won't buy into!!!

Look at what they and try to do...

1) Lie to us about Iraq War

2) Try to demolish Social Security and lying about it.

3) Medicaid bill, they lied to Democrats and America

4) CAFTA, they lied to American people

5) They lied about Clean Sky bill

6) They lied about HWY and Energy bill

7) They lied about No child left behind...

I think there's more to this list.

[LSK]

36. I HATE IT

Lots of people have spend almost everything they make just to SURVIVE. How is it fair that they have to pay the same tax JUST TO SURVIVE that RICH people have to pay and they have tons of money left over???

HOW IS THAT FAIR???

The only way it would be fair is if taxes stay where they are now, but then we are created more DEBT and DEFICITS with less revenue for the government.

FLAT TAX IS A BAD IDEA.

[Dulcinea]

10. It'll never happen.

It would eliminate too many loopholes for the wealthy.

[rman]

11. "economy" = rich man's pockets

That word has be redifined without most people noticing it.
Orwell, here we come.

[MrBenchley]

12. Steve Forbes has been peddling this same old horseshit for years

If his daddy hadn't left him a publishing company, he'd be posting on Free Republic...

Meanwhile, this will be "fair" in the same way the Republicans wanted to "reform" Social Security...

[TheFarseer]

20. Gee, I really hope this happens

Just on a selfish level, it would be great if no accountants could find work ever.

They think they can give anything a cute name and it will sell. I'm going to put dog s*it in a bag and call it "freedom loaves" and make a killing!

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

21. See, the only problem with that is...

...the same economists who have said that John Linder's "23%" is utter HORSESHIT have also said that putting this into place would be an administrative NIGHTMARE.

So, if anything, the CPAs would find MORE work.

I'm a self-employed graphic designer. My CPA is a great guy. He's watched my ass since I started my business. He's the very definition of a professional, he's a good guy, and while he ain't cheap, he's worth every penny.

The main point of my thread: Bush is HIDING most of the details from the American people while encouraging themselves to rub their bodies all over at the very thought of "abolishing the IRS."

It's ALL lies, it's ALL bullshit, and John Linder is a fucking CLOWN.

:toast:

[OneTwentyoNine]

23. Isn't it DAMN funny that RICH people always try and foist this crap??

Shouldn't that tell someone something?!?!? Of COURSE it will be a good thing--FOR THOSE ASSHOLES.

Rush Limbaugh goes from paying 7-8 MILLION in taxes to ZERO. Rush would have to spend about $85-90 THOUSAND PER DAY for 365 DAYS on goods and services at 23% for the Federal Government to get the same as they get now. He's rich and fat but does ANYONE think Pillboy will spend $90,000 PER DAY?!?!?

Of course he won't,so how to make up the money the Feds lost on Rush. Oh hey I know!!! Tax the SHIT out of working class and the poor,they still have to buy toilet paper,tooth paste and tires for the car. Not to mention all the back to school stuff that would be taxed at 23% PLUS any State and local taxes. Where I live we'd be pushing about 35% total. THe fact is also that the 23% will last about as long as a fart in a hurricane,next year it would be 25% then 27 then 30. Get the drift?

It's a fucking sham that the rich want the poor to believe is good....

[TheFarseer]

26. of course ass-hats like rush

and other rich people would have access to black markets. My dumb-ass, I'm not sure. Probably not for most stuff. They would love a 50% sales tax that OTHER PEOPLE pay!

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

28. Exactly. Always look at the source.

Although I was labeled a partisan, hate-filled hack in a thread about this a months ago, I simply looked at who was pushing the plan: rich Republicans. I asked myself "when, in the last 20-30 years, have rich Republicans ever pushed any kind of economic plan that has ever benefitted the poor and the middle class more than the rich?"
Seriously When have rich Rebpulicans ever given two cents about the poor in the last 20 years?

[magellan]

24. This is more GOP "give with one hand, take with the other" crank

Notice they keep the split on taxing "affluent" salary and capital, while the middle class sees no such split. Could it be there are some breaks in there only the affluent can afford to take advantage of, just like now?

Also, if I'm reading the FairTax comparison right, it would be a 23% tax. So if you're middle class currently paying $60 to fill your tank plus current state tax, that would change to $60 plus $13.80 in tax, or $73.80 compared to what you're paying now.

Yeah, that'll go over like a lead balloon.

[PassingFair]

25. They have been pushing this flat tax crap for so long, it's a wonder...

that they haven't slid it past us before this. It really boggles my mind. Everytime it comes up, somebody who hasn't really thought it through claims it's a fair and great idea.
Maybe with the spell that this administration has over us they can finally stick us with ALL the taxes.
Bring back the estate tax, for Pete's sake!

[SoCalifer]

33. If the rich want "equality"

- Are they going to give me my "equal" share of the billions in corporate welfare?
- Are they going to give me my "equal" share of revenues made off of using public lands?
- Are they going to give me my "equal" share of the profits my labor makes for them?
- Are they going to stop using my tax dollars to repair the roads their trucks break-up?
- Are they going to stop using my tax dollars to clean up the environmental messes they're responsible for?

Seems like to me the rich are nothing but economic terrorists that need to be put in their place. I honestly believe that we need to organize an enormous nation wide mass general strike.





.

[ComerPerro]

34. Theres a sadistic part of me that really hopes this passes

Americans deserve to be taken to the cleaners by the GOP.

I just regret that we have to be taken with them

[rasputin1952]

35. Let's break this "National Sales Tax" down to where it is easily...

understood.

You purchase $100 worth of merchandise. NST is 30%, you are up to $130. Add State and Local taxes, say 7.5%, now you pay the guy at the register $137.50. You now have to add up the miscellaneous stuff it took you to get to the store: fuel, (+30%); parking, (+30%); food while out shopping, (+30%); etc.

Those that buy of necessity, will support those who buy out of discretion. Once again, the burden falls on the middle and lower classes. The wealthy ride upon the same roads as the rest of us, are protected by the same fire and police departments, why should we pay for their pleasure and security?

The whole National Sales Tax is a scam that will toss this country further into debt, and create what the Founding Fathers distinctly were against; A class of nobility, and everyone else. WE are the everyone else.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

46. See #44...it would be 40 or 50 percent.

"You purchase $100 worth of merchandise. NST is 50%, you are up to $150. Add State and Local taxes, say 7.5%, now you pay the guy at the register $157.50."

The 23%...even a figure of 30%...could never happen UNLESS Bush ADDED a National Sales Tax to the EXISTING Income Tax...which is not supposed to be the purpose of his "reform."

[dawg]

39. The "Fair Tax" is a big-stinkin' pile of ...

shit, and I'm consistently shocked that there are posters on a liberal message board that think it's a good idea.

People hate doing their taxes. They hate paying them. But most people pay a whole hell of a lot less than 30% in federal taxes, once their deductions, exemptions, and credits are figured in.

This is nothing more than a plan to soak the "lucky duckies" and further enrich the wealthy. We should not stand for it.

We should not allow any opinion favorable to such a plan to go unchallenged.

This is the heart and soul of the GOP agenda.

[The Blue Knight]

41. the "fair tax"

Another Republican spun-euphamism. I can't wait till you see every conservative in the media calling it a "fair tax."

Personally, I like to call it what it is: A bullshit tax that looks good in theory, but in reality, is just another way to fuck the Poor.

[Blue_Tires]

42. it is very seductive to those that don't analyze it

a couple of liberal family members in the Atlanta area recently dicovered Boortz on the radio, and they spent the whole week i was there visiting telling me why paying 23 percent on all goods was such a great idea...i thought my brain was going to melt

[blondeatlast]

50. Note how precious little there is on progressive support for the idea.

I'm a library research pro, and I have yet to find much of any progressive argument in FAVOR of the idea.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

52. There's an extreme right-wing site called "RedState.org"...

...that has been running DAILY propaganda pieces on this topic. One of the most recent ones attempted to bullet-point the "progressive" nature of the tax, INCLUDING misquoting Nancy Pelosi (see her press release above).

As September 30th approaches (the day Bush's "Tax Panel" is due to turn in their "recommendations"), the amount of right-wing articles in praise of this plan is multiplying like rabbits.

Folks need to understand what lies "under the hood" of this one BEFORE it comes to a vote.