The California Democratic Party's unanimous call to lower the voting age.

[genius]

The California Democratic Party Executive Board deserves a pat on the back for standing up for America's youth and calling for the lowering of the voting age. Age discrimination is one of the worst types of discrimination. For the elderly, it means substandard medical care and unnecessary death because bureaucrats think old people don't deserve the benefits of younger individuals. It also means substandard living conditions and loss of job and income security. For the youth (those who have the most to win or lose from our nation's policies), it means not having a say in their own future.

Because there was a trend in 13 other states toward the 17 year old vote, the Party members thought 17 would be a safe temporary step. There are plans to go further - particularly for the members of the National Youth Rights Association, who are concerned about the over 300 servicemen and servicewomen who have died in Iraq without a chance to vote for President. For the youth, the discrimination can be a permanent condition as too many don't live long enough (particularly because of policies adult voters allowed to happen) to see the end of their plight. 324 Americans have died without a vote for President. They never had a chance to tell Bush "no." The spokesgirl (Natasha) for the National Youth Rights Association who presented the argument to the resolutions committee has pointed out that the only way to allow all servicemen and women to vote for President before they are killed in a war is to lower the voting age to 14. She, also, pointed out that almost all of the over 300 who died in Iraq without a chance to vote for President would have had that chance if the voting age had been 15 in 2000. Sending someone to die without a say in who would have the authority to send them to die is something only someone is cold and oppressive could support. Members of the Party have expressed a willingness to go lower if 17 works out. There was a strong desire on the part of the members that legislation to move the age below 18 pass quickly and effortlessly, and 17 seemed the easiest move at the present time.

This could change the outcome of elections dramatically. Where 16 and 17 year olds have been allowed to vote, they have gone to the polls in significantly greater numbers than 18 to 24 year olds.

The Democratic Party went a step further than just calling for the lowering of the voting age. The members recognized the contributions made by all youth to the party and decided to open their doors. As part of the second resolve clause, the unanimously passed resolution called for "full youth participation in conventions, caucuses and other meetings and events in our Party." They should be applauded for their inclusiveness.

The members of the National Youth Rights Association are following up on this. In addition to plans to contact legislators and encourage them to follow the wishes of their party, the members of the Berkeley Chapter of the NYRA are planning to meet with Schwarzenegger to convince him to join the call. With Arnold's dropping poll numbers, don't be surprised if he decides to take on the cause of suffrage. The legislature (both houses of which are controlled by the Democrats) would be wise to act first so the Democrats get the credit for being the leaders of freedom, democracy and human rights.

Here's a link to the web site to the chapter of the NYRA that worked to convince the California Democratic Party to take this bold step into the 21st Century.

http://orangecounty.youthrights.org/

There is also a congratulatory note up at patrickhenrythinktank.org

[Spinzonner]

1. Voting Precincts in High School's on election day ?

[shance]

2. There are many other priorities to be focusing on than this distraction.

Election fraud is one that comes to mind.

Guess that is not a top priority for leaders like Art Torres?

Im still curious why there was an ES&S (Election Systems and Software) booth displaying their newest (Republican owned) machines at the Democratic convention in LA a few months ago.

[Albert Einstein]

4. Allowing Americans to vote is not a priority. Dictators would agree.

This is American and Art Torres's priorities are correct: give as many Americans as possible the right to vote. No one should die without a voice. I hope all those who have failed to support the youth vote will send apology notes to the families of those 324 dead servicemen. Those servicement were just as deserving of the vote they didn't get as anyone alive and here.

[shance]

5. It's not who casts the vote my friend, it is who counts them.

Guess what companies are counting almost 80% of the ballots, thanks to HAVA?

Diebold and Elections Systems and Software, both owned by two brothers heavily connected to the GOP and conservative, fundamentalist Christian interests and the Bush family.

Are you comfortable?

Who cares HOW MANY people we get to believe their vote counts, when in reality we are lying to them because there vote doesnt matter. It wont matter until we address these private companies that have taken over the voting tabulation.

It is that simple.

Unless we have independent citizen run elections, and instead of Republican (or DEMOCRAT for that matter*) private companies counting 80% of the ballots, oh, and owning the ballot data*, then we have no fair elections.

That simple.

[Padme Amidala]

7. If no one votes and good people count them, what good will that do?

Allowing Americans to vote is what Democracy in America is all about.

[Padme Amidala]

8. Wise Decision on the California Democratic Party's part

Most political volunteers are young to vote and this will solidify the Democratic Party's volunteer support.

Anyone who supports lowering the voting age is guaranteed a victory.

[shance]

9. Conversely, if votes don't count because unethical people count them

what good will that do?

That has happened by the way in the past two presidential elections.

Lets get the votes counted correctly before we start betraying our new voters.

[Patrick Henry]

12. So we need to expand the voting age and count the votes correctly

Doing one, doesn't rule out the other. They go hand in hand.

[shance]

13. Without a doubt, couldn't agree more.

The only thing I would add is we must ensure the accurate COUNTING of election ballots and that they are done fairly first.

This in and of itself is a huge process that is going to take years and FOCUS and discipline like we've haven't seen in decades which the Democratic party is essentially ignoring and going on as if its not a problem.

As such, we've had two fraudulent elections, and 2002 had fraud which occured as well. Your point is certainly well taken, however, we must get the ballot tabulation squared away, which frankly will be a fight and a tough one because Republicans have now been able to force these private companies and theie electric voting technology on our counties and primarily under the radar. We have initiate state initiatives and get good fair people to run for county clerks and Secretaries of State. This is the only way we will take our elections back.

If we take on an issue that is premature because we have ignored the foundation of the house, the home will be a house of cards and an illusion, not a fair election that we can be proud of. Im fine with Republicans winning if they ACTUALLY win.

I certainly agree with voter recruitment, however I believe we must deal with the bigger crisis, on the contrary voter recruitment is no where the crisis election fraud is. So, we need to put the cart in back of the horse, not in front, which I believe, is happening with this action the CDP seems to be taking.

It's easier to eat the frosting before the cake is cooked.

This has been my observation. Ive been involved on this issue for a while, as you may have as well.

With that said your point is well put.

[Imagevision]

51. If you can be sacrificed in war ? geeezuuuuss! you should be able to vote!

[genius]

193. Right

[Albert Einstein]

3. Thank you. Increasing the voter base should be our number one priority

It's kind of hypocritical to attack the disenfranchisements of people in Ohio and Florida and deprive the individuals who will suffer the most from Bush's policies the right to oppose him. I'm glad the Democratic Party did the right thing. But watch. Those opposed to Democracy will put down efforts to enfranchise more voters.

[Patrick Henry]

27. I agree It's hypocritical to support Ohio voters and oppose youth voters

Before the African-Americans had the vote, the women backed the right of African-Americans to vote. They knew that, if they were for voting rights, they had to be for voting rights for all. Anything else is hypocritical. It's nice to see that you picked up on the hypocrisy issue involved here.

[HellRaiser]

6. Expanding the voter base is a great idea

It may not be a "top priority" but it's a great idea. Kids under 18 are not quite as distracted from the political scene as those who are buried under trying to find a job, get into college, thinking about the military and so on.

If the Republicans can attack on multiple fronts, there's no reason to prevent the Democratic Party from advancing in the same fashion, and the Repubs might even go for the idea as well (once, until they find out that more under-18s are Dems than they like).

Go, NYRA!

[rinsd]

48. Ah yes...TP# 3

A teenager is less "transitional" than a college student and therefore is more politically engaged.

Because we all know that ages 14 to 18 is a period of graceful tranquility without distraction.

This is probaly the worst TP of the lot because you are simulataneoulsy insulting one age group for its youthful lack of committment (I assume to assauge those angry with youth voters and Ahnuld) while at the same time petitioning for an even younger group.

Hurry up guys...you can still post the discredited "they died without voting" TP. At least that one has some emotional pull.

[alcibiades_mystery]

10. Voting age should = Lowest age you can be tried as an adult

If the courts presume that you can make adult decisions at 11, then the society should presume that you can make adult governmental decisions at that same age. Can't have it both ways. Any state that allows prosecutors to try 14 year0olds as adults but does not allow a 14 year old to vote has an intellectually incoherent system.

[Patrick Henry]

11. Excellent analysis - I agree We must lower voting age

You are absolutely right. If a 14 year old can be tried as an adult, then a 14 year old deserves the right to vote. Anything else would be hypocrisy.

[LittleClarkie]

28. What about the driving age?

What are they going to use for identification?

And if we don't trust them to drive, why would we trust them to vote?

[Padme Amidala]

85. Abxolutely, alcibiades_mystery and Patrick. This is a matter of justice

It is also a matter of human rights. To refuse someone who could go to prison for life, the right to vote, is inhumane, by any definition of the word.

[sunnystarr]

105. wow I never thought about it like that. excellent point (nt)

[genius]

118. This is a really good point.

If someone can form the scienter to commit a crime as an adult, then they also have the intellectual ability to vote.

[ISUGRADIA]

14. Where is any independent verification of this claim?

Previous threads have been locked because verification of this cannot be found.

[genius]

15. Those were locked by mistake. Skinner has said it could be reposted.

Call the California Democratic Party if you want verification. The resolution number is LA05.14 and it passed on July 31st, 2005. Check out the links in the posting above.

[HellRaiser]

47. Here

California Democratic Party: 916-442-5707

[HellRaiser]

195. Official Reference

For those of you who thought this was all made up, sorry.

http://www.cadem.org/site/c.jrLZK2PyHmF/b.993255/apps/nl/content2.asp?content_id={402F927F-7D8A-4B75-9F06-D2AC1356B098}¬oc=1

[msongs]

16. support unborn rights - let fetuses vote n/t

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fujiyama]

22. Have you noticed that whenever the same op

posts this topic (or any other topic for thata matter) the usual suspects show up? I just find it amusing to say the least.

[rinsd]

31. Or uses the same taunt to quell any dissenters?

[genius]

34. All the detractors post very similar messages.

Is there an anti-youth, anti-liberal group where these things are planned out?

[rinsd]

38. Yes.....

...when we aren't plotting to stop youth voting rights, we're creating loitering laws, raising driving ages, setting up legal defense funds for senior citizens who had to resort to vigilantism (we call it the Mr. Wilson foundation) and in general making life for teenagers as miserable as possible.

[LittleClarkie]

44. No use pretending

They're onto us, comrade.

We'd have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling kids.

[HellRaiser]

50. We're all one person!

Yep, you caught us.

The 68th Assembly District Committee and the Democratic Club of West Orange County (who proposed the resolution at the April state party convention to lower the voting age to 17), the 69th ADC and the Patrick Henry Democratic Club, and, in fact, the entire 295 member Executive Board of the CDP - we're all the same person.

Oh, wait - silly me, you meant posting here in the DU. Close, but no cigar - I happen to know several of the supporters of this idea personally, all of whom have posted here (though why I don't know), and they are definitely different people.

But don't take my word for it. Call some of my alter-egos in the above-mentioned clubs and ADs, or on the E-board. We're all the same person there....

[Padme Amidala]

68. Great response to the flames

I guess they think only one person in the world likes kids. I guess we should shine these people on and thank God that they are not in the California Democratic Party.

[genius]

36. "Unanimous" means a lot of Democrats agree and are on board.

However, I have to wonder about the background of indivuduals who don't fit the mold of the average Democrat, who supports the lowering of the voting age.

[rinsd]

41. Wit us or agin us? Not a "real" Democrat?

If you really wanna know why I think 18 is fine as an age, your posts are exhibit A. You maybe intelligent, you may know the lingo but you are so narrowminded and think in such black and white terms that a little more seasoning with age may wise you up.

I wonder if you realize how much damage you are doing to your own cause by simply wanting to get in the last insult.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rinsd]

45. "You sound like LittleClarkie"

See...its not that hard to give out a compliment.

[YankeeFan]

81. Somebody Actually Used That Line..

Embryosy..back in the late 1960's and early 70's.

The 26th Amendment to the Constitution, which gave 18 year olds the right to vote, was part of an article talking about youth and the Vote.

The article started out well enough.
It talked about youth and their responsibilities and how well they have shown it in the past and how well they can continue to show it.

But a few years earlier there was a movie titled "Wild in the Streets".
It was about a rock star who was, through assorted tricks, is elected President.
He lowers the legal voting age to 13 years of age.
And if you think OUR Current Pres is a loser, look that movie up and rent or buy it.

And the article seems to have the movie in mind as the author winds up towards the end. He gets weirder and weirder.

And the last line, more or less, goes “Embryos! Stand up for your rights!”

[LittleClarkie]

17. Mature 14 year olds are the exception, not the rule

At the least, you should be able to drive yourself to the polls. 16 maybe. Or old enough to be able to emancipate yourself from your parents. Is that age 16 as well?

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

20. How old are you?

If you don't mind me asking. What perspective are you arguing from? As one of those unable to vote now? Or as a concerned adult?

[rinsd]

30. Are you posting from multiple handles?

Because this is same article was posted by Patrick Henry (though this time you posted it with a link)....and last time it was posted, "Patrick Henry" & "Albert Einstein" responded in the above identical manner to people who disagreed.

[ISUGRADIA]

46. We may have a winner here.....

[fujiyama]

146. That's what I've always suspected

Another is "Constitution".

Either that or they're all from the same website and they come here just for this inane topic.

[kodi]

32. "Spend a day with a kid and learn something"?? bah hah hah!

apparently in your precociousness you forgot that adults were kids once themselves and know from personal experience that your comments are false.

your opinion that children can function like adults in the world is an illusion. every human culture has had rites of passage to mark the transformation from childhood to adulthood and imbue the individual with the concomitant responsibilities adults carry in a society. these rites of passage are not based upon whether or not one can do calculus or play the piano well. they are based upon age simply because it is the most accurate large-scale assessment available to society to make such judgments that the person can function responsibly on their own.

your remark that "I suppose women should learn their place, take off their shoes, go into the kitchen and realize they don't have brains and can't think. You sound like the people who thought that way."

isn't even germaine. the difference is that the state of being of women would not change over time, they would remain women, while that of children does change over time.

as a teacher of young people, and having been one of those precocious ones who skipped two grades in school myself, as a whole they are not equipped with dealing responsibly with the world as adults generally are.

[genius]

33. Thomas would agree with you. He was once poor and black

But like you, he's moved on to discriminate against those he was once one of. Indivudals like this are the worst kind of bigots. They've forgotten their roots and descriminate against those they should support.

Most of those rituals, you mention, take place by the age of 13.

I had some really bad teachers and some really good ones. The really good ones were the ones who respected the students and believed they were as bright and capable as adults. The really bad ones were those who thought as you. You don't say what you teach or whether you are a Baptist teacher or a school teacher. I suspect that you don't teach anything that gives you a true sence of who children are.

[kodi]

60. ah, so saying so makes it so? yet another attribute of an immature mind

and those rituals were in preindustrialized or agrarian societies where marriage also occurred at the onset of puberty. you advocate that as well?

a bar or bat mitzvah is hardly prima fascia evidence of personal competence of social responsibilities in the adult world. and even with those rites of passage, the individuals were not considered full adults with all that such station demands for several years.

but, i just love the way you bandy insults of bigotry towards those who do not buy into your unsubstantiated opinions.

clarence thomas? you're reaching, try another way. that remark just proves my thesis

my credentials are living 50 years on the planet, and i was a professor of chemistry who taught freshman, sophomores, and graduate students for many years and i was also a high school science teacher and football coach. that provides a level of experience with the development of young men and women on a physical, emotional, and intellectual level sorely lacking in your remarks or you would not say the things you are saying.

i am also a parent, a member of Big Brothers, coach little league baseball and teach art classes to children. you really do not know what you are talking about, but you will understand it when you get older, and realize how completely clueless you are today in your remarks.

actually you should record your remarks here today for future reference, you will find out that in several years you will be embarrassed at your present remarks. i know you hate to admit that, but someday you will find out how true it is.

nothing will make you see it other than the experience of living. (see JS Mill's quote below) sadly for you you lack the experience, but someday you might, and you might just learn something if you pay attention to those who have gone through it already.

the true test of maturity is to recognize how little you actually know and to see that those who have gone before you on the path of life generally know more than you do about living.

btw: go to a video store and rent out "wild in the streets," its your fantasy realized.

[Greyhound]

143. Youth is wasted on the young. n/t

[ISUGRADIA]

52. I'd be interested in numbers of actual below 18 year old students

at Cal State. Having discussed this issue with jr high teachers I can safely assert a majority of 14 years olds are no where ready to exercise the franchise. Christ, I bet 1-100 could name the 2 US Senators in california. Your talking about exceptions rather than the rule.

[LittleClarkie]

53. As I said before, we don't let them drive

why would we let them vote?

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[K-W]

86. Mature 40 year olds are the exception, not the rule.

If they are old enough to have independent opinions, they are old enough to vote.

[Telly Savalas]

109. How old were the Congress members who demanded that French fries...

in the cafeteria be renamed "freedom fries"?

It's pretty hard to make the case that there's much that can be done that would make the United States political process any more immature. Our nation would probably be in better shape if we scouted convenience store parking lots for loiterers and replaced our Republican legislature with slurpee drinking 14 year old skateboarders.

[genius]

123. Absolutely true

Good point.

[Constitution]

21. kick

[Dynasty_At_Passes]

23. I think its a great step.

Just make sure to fix the horrendous problem with the voting machines, and stamp it out. That is if you don't want these type of neocons, convicts, corrupt dishonest politicians electing themselves.

[genius]

117. True

The kids who pushed through the resolution were the same kids who got the California Democratic Party to call for a paper trail, public ownership and inspection of the software and other reforms.

[Mass]

24. What about convincing poor people they speak for them rather

It is sad that so many people do not vote because they consider no party will help them, and that this perception is caused by politicians who speak about middleclass people as poor people.

Before we get kids to vote, may be we could care about poor people who are REALLY poor, and never hear again programs aimed at poor people that poor people cannot afford (such as saving accounts for poor people, for example).

Do something for these people and they will vote. Continue ignoring them and they will stand.

[Patrick Henry]

29. Most of the poor are youth This is about their rights

A kid who has lived on the street has a lot more knowledge than an adult who has had maid service all his/her life.

[LittleClarkie]

49. Have some stats to back that up

I seriously doubt that most of the poor are youth. But if you have a source to back you up, I'd like to see it. Thanks.

[ISUGRADIA]

56. "Most of the poor are youth" A false statement

Most of the poor are NOT youth though they have a higher poverty rate (16%) than over 18 (10%)

http://www.policyalmanac.org/social_welfare/archive/poverty_statistics2001.shtml

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Silverhair]

102. Knowledge of WHAT?

International relations when he doesn't even know where the countries are, or even where the continents are? I could go on, but you get the idea. A person whose only knowledge is from the streets may have intimate knowledge of his local situation, but his horizons are severly limited?

How would a street person vote on laws effecting the internet?

[Le Taz Hot]

25. Oh, well, goody goody for the e-board.

May I just remind you that this particular demographic (18-25 year olds) voted overwhelmingly for Ahnold? Now they're bitching 'cause Ahnold jacked up their college tuition. Well, cry me a river! You guys wanted the terminator, you got him.

Now, if they were drafting 17-year-olds, I might go along with this but that's not the case now, is it?

I'm sorry, but as an ex-member of the illustrious e-board I think they could be focusing on a WHOLE lot more important issues. Like DiFi for example and why she keeps rubber stamping *'s every crackpot scheme. But nooooo, they're going to back her like the good little sycophants they are. How about making sure Dieblod machines NEVER enter this state (they're just on hiatus)again? How about making sure California's primaries are PERMANENTLY moved back to March instead of June? This is a state with 33 million people and wouldn't it be wonderful if we actually got a say-so about who our candidate is?

There are DOZENS of REAL issues they could be taking up but those might be too controversial, don't 'cha know. I've seen, met, been around and been up-close-and-personal with these guys and most of them are there for every reason EXCEPT what's good for California Democrats.

Alright, alright, I'll stop.:mad:
:rant over:
LTH

[Patrick Henry]

26. kick

[genius]

35. A number of people tried to post this tread before. It's got support.

There was some confusion and it was locked by mistake. There are discussions of the whole matter in yahoo groups and the like. What concerns me is that those opposed to the youth vote are using every trick they can to try to discredit the many supporters of the youth.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

43. What ARE you talking about?

Hrrr?

[ISUGRADIA]

54. Why not 12?? These kids going into battle never got to vote on 1/3

of the US Senate voting to approve war resolutions since senate terms are 6 years long.

[mr715]

55. I dont think people under 18 should vote

I reason that if you are under 18 you will vote not because of reasoned conclusions but because of either the way your parents vote or how yer friends vote.

The vast, vast majority of American youth have no clue how the system works.

Democracy benefits from reasoned and rational debate over candidates. The simple right to vote doesnt lead to a healthy democracy - it leads to a rule of the mob.

And kids generally love mobs.

Sorry. Voting age at 18. You can enlist in the military without parental consent, you can vote.

Voting is a grown up right. Like the right to pay taxes. Like the right to sign a contract. 14 year olds just dont think like adults.

[JuanGomez2105]

70. EXACTLY

in my school, all the kids were conservative cuz their parents were. And if they were allowed to vote, poeople would only vote to "be cool". The pressure would get to them to vote one way, or risk bullying. Kids also don't know half the issues. In my school, most kids couldn't name me one accomplishment Bill Clinton had. They all say "he lied under oath" bal bla blah. They don't know the economy, jobs, and the lack of planes flying into buildings. Because repugs are much more into following the leader, it would be the dumbest idea ever.

[TheDonkey]

79. very true, and most have not even taken American Civics by that time!

It is ridiculous to think kids have the political acumen when they aren't even sure about what government is. Having tweens vote is dilluting the amount of educated voters out there.

It would put a new twist on to political pandering though.

[DerBeppo]

57. what about age of consent?

In states where the age of consent is 18, wouldn't lowering the age where the law says they can resonably choose elected officials at a younger age open the door for pedophiles to argue a new "they wanted it" defense?

[LittleClarkie]

66. Oh my God, what a thought

What else should a 14 year old be able to do if he's old enough to vote and be tried as an adult.

Well, driving, and sex, and I suppose they could move out. And then they shouldn't need a work permit to work, and they should be able to work 40 hours if they want.

Child labor laws would start go out the window maybe?

This is not a black/white issue is all I'm saying. Not cut and dried.

[mr715]

74. Brilliantly Stated

But I see a little more black and white than you do.

While its a complex issue, I see 18 (or even 21) as the best possible answer. Younger is no good. Older is no good.

18 or 21 is when the state recognizes you as an adult. And frankly, it is when you are an adult.

Like you still develop and grow after 18/21, but you really are sexually mature and biologically adult. I figure it makes sense

[Imagevision]

58. Without voter receipt machines? Does it really matter??

[Clarkie1]

61. I disagree...here's why.

I don't agree with this, unless we as a society agree to lower the age for a lot of other rights to 17, it makes no sense.

It also makes no sense to allow 18 year olds to go to war without the right to have a beer.

There needs to be CONSISTENCY across the board on when "coming of age" is.

[mr715]

62. Drinking age

For military is 18 no?

A few years back a friend got into a bar with a military ID and he wasnt 21.


But yeah, scitzo law.


M

[ISUGRADIA]

63. Actually it is 21 today for everyone, military included

See linked article if your are interested. WI wants to lower it to 19 for military but wants to make sure it does not lose highway funds:

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_drink_060105,00.html

"MADISON, Wis. - One Wisconsin lawmaker figures if the U.S. military trusts 19-year-olds with a $10 million tank, then the state should trust them with a beer.

State Rep. Mark Pettis, a Republican who served in the Navy, is pushing a bill that would drop the drinking age to 19 for Wisconsin soldiers - but only if the federal government agrees it will not yank an estimated $50 million a year in highway aid.

A federal law ties federal highway dollars to compliance by the states with the required drinking age of 21.

"We're treating these young men and women as adults when they're at war. But we treat them like teenagers when they're here in the states," he said. "

[mr715]

64. Ah

I stand corrected. I thought military could go to bars under 21.

What about on military bases?



M

[ISUGRADIA]

65. Good question...looks like under 21 may be ok

on some military bases, that would make sense to me:

"Similarly, the minimum age to purchase, possess or consume alcoholic beverages on military installations is the same as the State where the installation is located, but this requirement may be waived by the commanding officer of a military installation in special circumstances, <10 U.S.C. § 2683>. Moreover, if the military installation is located in more than one State or within one State but within 50 miles of another State, Mexico or Canada, the minimum age may be set at the lowest minimum drinking age. "

http://alcoholpolicy.niaaa.nih.gov/index.asp?Type=BAS_APIS&SEC={0D5C719E-FCE8-4E15-A367-4145C655505F}&DE={1A5F58BC-B6CF-4260-8FBF-8077974F8DAD}

[mr715]

73. Alcohol rocks

Lets lower the drinking/voting age to 2. That way drunk toddlers can vote.

Yeah. I'm a Fratboy (Delta Kappa Epsilon). I love my drinks.

I'm just real bored so I replied to a message that required no reply, but it just strikes me as weird that we have different age restrictions on different things.

Alcohol @ 21 makes sense, selectively enforced. Its a prohibition for public health...

Voting and citizen rights at 18 makes sense, because yer an adult then... but like... rated R movies are 17. And "adult oriented films" are 17+. Is that like a quirk of the FCC or whatever?

For what its worth, I think the voting age should be raised to 21. I'm just very disappointed with people in my age group. They dont get "it".

[genius]

95. It depends on the state.

There is a wide descrepancy from state to state.

[Hippo_Tron]

91. Yea, but it's our own damn fault that the drinking age is 21

We (18-20) year olds DON'T VOTE. MADD, which consists of people who are our parents' age, do vote. It's that simple.

[kath]

137. Drinking age of 21 is total bullshit - talk about age discrimination!

[Solon]

190. That should also mean that all people under the age of 18 should...

also be exempt from federal and state income taxes, otherwise the system is inconsistant. I worked at the age of 16, and had to pay taxes, Social Security is an insurance program, but taxes for the general funds that I have no say in how it is distributed? Even indirectly, no taxation without representation I say!

BTW: I'm 27 now, and back when I was 16, when I worked, I really didn't understand why I couldn't vote if I paid taxes like all other adult citizens.

[Padme Amidala]

67. I see that those opposed to the Calif Demoratic Party &youth are flaming

To see where they are coming from, substite the word woman or black every time they talk about a 12 year old or 14 year old or someone under the age of 18. Those opposed to lowering the voting age are no better than those opposed to allowing blacks or women to vote. Thank God for the California Democratic Party Executive Board. I would expect Democratic Underground to support the California Democratic Party.

We should celebrate all those supporting the youth. To those you like kids, don't let the haters get you down.

[mr715]

71. Ahem

Women dont become less womenly.

Black people dont become less black.

Kids (immaturity incarnate) become less young and become adults.

Voting is NOT an absolute right.

Its a false analogy to compare kids getting the right to vote with the rights of minorities to vote.

Identity is different from transitive traits.

Kids are, generally, ignorant by definition. Kids arent interested in politics generally. Is this true of all kids? Absolutely not! There are some very involved and very brilliant kids, but I dont want 12 year olds electing a president when they dont understand what it means to work and pay bills.

For reference, when I was 12, I remember thinking I was a Republican because "low taxes = good" and "death penalty = punishment". It was ignorant and I grew out of it.

Kids get the right to vote when they become full citizens of the United States; 18 years old. Its appropriete.

Address the fact that of those who CAN vote, dont. Do not fool yerself into believing that kids are in any way better informed or more involved than adults are.

If kids can vote, they can also drink, right? How about own a gun? Sign a contract?

Kids dont understand stuff. Its hard to understand the world when you still have a teddy bear and rely on Mom and Dad for money.


M

[Padme Amidala]

88. The call for "full youth particpation in caucuses, "etc was for all youth

I personally know the indivudals who wrote the resolve clause involved here. One was fourteen and the other was sixteen. The meaning is that all youth now have a right to a say in Calfiornia Democratic Party politics. The job of the good people is to make sure the Party stays true to its word.

[Padme Amidala]

89. Sorry, I agree with the Voting Rights Act of 1965, setting 6th grade ed as

test of literacy and intelligence. Roberts doesn't like the Voting Rights Act of 65 either. So I suppose he has your support.

[mr715]

99. Whoa

So you wanna incorporate intelligence tests as a measure of voting rights?

Nice. Classy.

Since turnabouts fair play and you like these false extensions of logic... You want intelligence to determine voting behavior? Well why not kill the stupid? Are you a nazi!? Do you wanna kill people because they're dumber than you?

GASP!

Listen kid. Get a grip. Wait till yer 18 to vote - when you have some hair on yer balls you can vote for Prez. I think its fair.


M

[genius]

142. That was your idea, not hers.

She simply pointed out that, if you raise the issue of intelligence, a twelve year old meets the standard used in the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

[rinsd]

196. This what you get for simply reciting talking points....

TP# 1 dealt with soliders dying without having a chance to vote for the President who sent them here....and emotional plea that fell flat because logic dicatates that is always a possibility even with this change.

TP# 2 was to aling young voter rights with those of women and minorities. Again an emotional appeal that mostly feel flat because it was used in attack mode.

TP# 3 that college students are more transitional than teenagers and therefore are less likely to be involved in the process. Because we all know that high school years are honky dorry periods of tranquility.

Now we have TP#4 dealing with the civil rights act....here's some news that sixth grade education part is in relation to that English not being the primary language spoke at that school and how proficiency in English is not an allowable barring requirement to voting. But nice try.

So the youth advocates have spoken. They can recite talking points with the best O'Leilly fans...and have even adopted his tactics of random attacks on people's motivations.

Good job...instead of being inspired by youth activism, I fear for the future where rw mentality dominates.

[ISUGRADIA]

76. The CA DP Exec Board said nothing about 12 or 14 yr olds

only 17 year olds. So apparently according to your logic they are "no better than those opposed to allowing blacks or women to vote" also.

[genius]

144. The participation clause applied to youth of all ages.

That clause was written by a fourteen year old, who got credit for the resolution. So right away, they wanted to include younger individuals in the political process. Don't try to twist the facts. The Executive Board is open to going lower if they get this through. They are good people who know the value of young Democrats.

[Padme Amidala]

69. I think some of these kid-haters should speak at a high school

On second thought, if they said this stuff there, the kids might act like adults and do something that would cause arrests.

[mr715]

72. Why?

Because only adults commit crimes?

Excuse me. I'm 22 years old. I've voted in 1 Presidential election and worked on 2.

Just cause I didnt vote doesnt mean I wasnt involved. Further, I do NOT want high school Freshman, sophomores, voting for who will be Prez. Because I remember how STUPID I was when I was Freshman. I'm sufficiently young to remember that.

For guys like me, the maxim is very simple:

If you do not have hair on yer chest, you do not have the right to vote. :)

Better start drinkin' yer whiskey there, kiddo. Puts hair on yer chest!


Matt

[ISUGRADIA]

75. Jeez...if you think kids are so potentialy violent when someone

might make a case that they shouldn't vote maybe that makes the case that they should not vote. Most adults can control their tempers in public settings.

[Padme Amidala]

83. No, I think that bigoted attacks on the youth are a from of violence

They are an excuse to support the worst kind of oppression.

[ISUGRADIA]

92. PLEASE There are plenty of logical reasons to not give 14 y o the vote

Apparently the CA Dem exec board agrees with me and are bigots too! But it's always easier to throw out ad homminem attacks rather than adress the issue.

[genius]

96. You are wrong about that.

They considered this a first step. They wanted to see how easy this was to get through before going for a lower age. And the participation provision or the resolution allows those under 14 to also participate in party politics.

[ISUGRADIA]

112. Can 14-18 year olds not be elected to policy making positions?

As delegates to conventions (and I mean as full members, not "youth delegates")? What involvement are they allowed now that they were not before?

And I am interested in this, I do think youth should have more power as they get closer to 18, for example in Iowa, 17 y olds who were 18 by Nov 2 could take part in the caucuses as full members and could be elected to the state convention, etc.

[genius]

122. The kids who are interested will do the best work.

The age is irrelevant. The genuine liberals get this. But they are not the only ones. One thing the homeschooling movement got right is that age segregation and age discrimination is wrong and dangerous. They learn that age discrimination leads to gangs and violence and that support for the youth leads to a strong healthy society. Support for the younger generation will pull in the youth and also those who believe the Democrats don't support family values. The family values crowd considers an end to age segregation as a high priority. So, in addition to doing the right thing, the CDP os also gaining family support for the Party.

[mr715]

129. Homeschooling

Homeschooling freaks the living crap outta me.

Every homeschooled kid I met has been a little bit unbalanced, because they dont get the social exposure they need. They are led by the hand and coddled the whole way and traditional HS gets it right.

[genius]

140. Are you aware you are insulting FDR, Thomas Edison and other great

and intelligent Americans?

Age segregated socialization leads to a lot of really bad stuff. Fortunately, most kids don't let their school experience warp them.

[mr715]

150. Age segregation is natural

You hang with people yer own age.

As for FDR, etc. they were in a different time. Homeschooled kids now are either crazy conservatives who believe Jesus invented the internet OR insane liberals that believe the government can do no right.

Its the function of parents who are more interested in social experimentation than healthy rearing of their kids.

M

[genius]

157. Its very unnatural. Does your employer divide people into age groups?

You're 25, and I've got a new generation of 22-year-olds coming in. You have to join the oldies in the mail room. We'll have to take the 26 year-olds from the mail room, now that they're in the wrong age group and place them reviewing phone memos.

Or how about in church? Take your row, according to your age. Sorry, families can't sit together. They must break up into their age groups.

JFK may have been a little closer to your generation. Most youth actors and actresses are currently homeschooled, probabably your favorites.

[Silverhair]

164. Yes, to a certain point employees ARE divided by age.

By law, children are NOT allowed to be employees, so they are shut out.

A middle range of ages are allowed by law to be employees, but have restrictions on them as to the number of hours they can work, when they can work, duties they can perform, etc.

Then those of legal age are unrestricted.

So an employer divides people by age into: Unemployed, Restricted Employment, Full Employability.

Many churches, mine included, have a children's church that younger children go to instead of the main service. The age at which they join the main service varies from one church to another.

Youth actors/actreses usually have private tutors. Kind of hard to film a movie around a public schools hours, so the tutor works the schooling around the movie's shooting hours.

[Albert Einstein]

176. Nice inaccurate and misleading statements.

Children six months of age and older can work in the entertainment industry and they work side by side with adults. No age segregation there. Youth workers have more rights and protections under the labor laws but that does not prevent them from working side-by-side with adults. These kids pay taxes but cannot say how their tax dollars are spent. Basically, American adults are stealing kids' money via taxing it and giving it to adult interests, such as war and Halliburton. Kids are much more interested in protecting the environment and protecting all people. Only the most self-centered of adults would steal and give the victim no rights. But that is where those opposed to lowering the voting age are coming from. Hopefully, you don't have any kids, but if any kids are that unlucky, apologize to them for your generation's gift of George W. Bush and the War in Iraq. That's your doing. Nobody under the age of 18 would stoop so low.

The average age at which individuals enter the work force is 16. At Target, do you see the 16 year old employees sitting in a corner? No, you see them performing the same functions as the older employees. Why don't you check other industries where kids are employed. Surprise, surprise. Same thing. The only exception would be industries where safety is an issue.

Churches vary but most have children sit side by side with adults through most services in the dozens of churches I've attended. There are some activities and classes in which kids can occasionally participate.

To most Democrats and most of those supporting civil rights, age disseminations is an illegal activity about which lawsuits are regularly filed. Children have often been subjected to a double standard, particularly when it comes to voting. This is what the California Democratic Party is seeking to end.

[ISUGRADIA]

178. I'd suggest you go and read some political science and sociology journals

on the political and social attitudes of youth. Children's attitudes normally fall in line with their parents (more or less) so their are more than a few kids out their with fascistic tendencies. They're not all these little liberals you think they are.

Same mistake in thinking made by liberals in the early 70s, once 18 year olds got the vote they'd vote in droves against the draft and against Richard Nixon. Guess what? The youth vote in 72 was split politically and the numbers were horrific compared to 21 up. And these were adults facing the draft and the war in Vietnam!

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

185. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mr715]

169. Im stating an observation

Most homeschoolers i've met have been weird.

But yeah, I'm a whiskey drinkin' Fratboy, so my idea may be skewed.


But yes, the world is stratified on age. People hang with people their own age. I date girls my age. I dont date 50 year olds. I hang out with guys at the gym who are my age. Its not a function of saying "your 22 so you hang in my group" its that common groups share common interests.

I think its important to have kids be with other kids during their social development. Makes them more balanced.

[genius]

183. You're right:Joining a street gang is better than getting a real education

[mr715]

189. Thats not really... huh!? Wha!?

Dude I went to public school. Public elementary, public middle, and public high school.

I got my BA at NYU and I'm getting my PhD at a public grad school (Rutgers)

I never joined a gang. I never sat at home either with no contact with my peers.

Real world please.

Most people ARENT homeschooled, and most people ARE healthy adults with no criminal record. Are you learning you rhetoric through home schooling? Cause if thats the case, yer teacher is stooooopid!



M

[Padme Amidala]

199. In 2001, "socialization" means street gangs, drugs and other bad stuff

Kids who are educated without that garbage are much healthier mentally.

[mr715]

101. OPPRESSION!?

Kids are not oppressed. How dare you use that word because the way we treat kids is not equitable to the way we have abused Amerindians, Blacks, Hispanics, Gays, etc.

Kids are PROTECTED from the world. And they dont get citizenship rights because they are not sophisticated enough to understand all that goes into it.

Its not a type of violence. Its not oppression. Its reason. Rational. It makes sense.

Do you support the statuatory rape laws? Hey, do you think kids should be allowed to enlist in the military?

Say, when you fight with mom and dad, have you ever had the urge go out and join the foreign legion just to teach em old folks what for!

Puh lease.

And I'm only 22.

M

[genius]

125. Oppression does seem to be the perfect word, perhaps an understatement

If the adults in our society treated any other group as badly as they treat kids, the adults would be in prison for life on a long list of charges. You should read John Taylor Gatto's "The Underground History of Education in America." It talks about how the purpose of the current model of education is to create servants who will fit well into a caste system. The current plan was derived from the Hindus and Nazis. Parents often subject their own children to slavery, oblivious to what they are doing. The author received the "Teacher of the Year" Award for New York State many years in a row.

Children are bound over as adults when they are as young as eleven. They are subjected to dangerous fumes and chemicals and encouraged to plan to go to die for America. Adults steal their money and mortgage their kids into a lifetime of slavery on a regular basis. Look at the National Debt, the WTO, CAFTA and NAFTA. Over 300 died in Iraq without a chance to vote for President. If they had been allowed the vote, there would have been no war with Iraq. That's the fault of the adult generation of voters and cowards (who won't kick Bush out of office).

[mr715]

128. We dont oppress

Kids. We protect them.

We are aware that they are naive and shield them from the world as long as possible, until they open their eyes and can make their own decisions.

Do you have a job? Do you pay for the clothes you wear? Do you pay for your own food and cook it yourself?

Do you work 16 hours a day?

Do you, yourself, support kids?

Humbly submitted sir - we treat our youth damn good.

You are looking at this thing in really ridiculously black and white. You dont KNOW that if 14 year olds could vote, they would vote against the war. After all, kids love destruction. Also kids are more likely to not see the nuance in the fallacy of "killing the bad guy"

Kids do not understand how big the world is. Bush has the mind of a child, which is why he is a god awful president.

We need grown ups in politics. Not pie-in-the-sky Santa-believing idealists.


M

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mr715]

149. Yer totally wrong

Blackness and womaness are identity traits. Youth is not. Youth is the state of being immature.

What are you advocating? People getting the right to vote out of the womb?

[genius]

158. As far as I can tell, the youth have a higher level of maturity

than some people here. Overcoming discrimination is a sign of maturity. The youth are not trying to stop you from voting so why do you want to prevent them from voting? The group that knows the importance of having a larger voter base is the more mature group.

Those who discriminated against blacks and women didn't know they were prejudiced either. They thought there were reasons and that they were right to believe as they did.

[MaineDem]

166. Have you answered the questions as to your age yet?

Just wondering...

[LittleClarkie]

173. Nope

I asked it, never got an answer.

Black slave owners. Would that make a kid's parents the modern day slave owner?

When you can move out. When you can drive. When you can divorce your parents. At the age at which you can do these things, come talk to me. Otherwise, nah.

The current level of arguementation rather proves our point, I believe.

[mr715]

171. Its not discrimination

Its biology. You are not "mature". A 14 year old has a different brain than 18 year old. And by definition, the older is the more mature.

And dont equate protection of youth to racism/sexism. Its beneath you and terribly, terribly immature :)

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mr715]

192. Are you aware...

That yer brain is not mature until age 18.

Do you think babies should get the right to vote? Do you think 3 year olds should get the right to vote?

How about a prodigy 6 year old in college? Should he get a right to vote?

The biological differences between african americans and whites is a difference in melanin production in the skin, not one of substantive intellect or ethics. There IS an intelligence (maturity) gap between the young (immature) and the adult (mature) individuals in society.

Kids do not see nuance where there is some. They are untouched by the fact that living in the world without yer parents is very different from living under mom's skirts.

Look... I'm 22. As far as I'm concerned, I'm a kid. However I recognize the fact that I didnt understand shit when I was 14 or even 16. I remember walkin around quoting philosophers who I thought I understood but didnt.

You grow and you learn. The right to vote is neither an absolute right nor one that should be haphazardly handed out to anyone who wants it.

We do not live in a Democracy. We live in a Democratic Republic, and you need to be a full citizen to vote in a government. You become a full citizen when you at 18. Do you pay taxes? No you dont. You reep the rewards of what adults pay - they pay taxes for your schooling, your streets, your mail, your police, your fire, your military, your medicaid, your public parks, etc. etc.

You dont pay for them. I do.

This isnt about bigotry. This is about rationality. Kids under 18 are not rational.


M

[rinsd]

198. Ya know....

that bullshit talking point whas already been demolished by simple logic.

Even if the voting age was lowered to 14 it is still possible that a person could die in a military action before they ever voted. This is even more possible with the supposed change.

Standing on the bodies of dead Americans while casually calling people racists is a bunch of bullshit...cut it out.

[MaineDem]

82. Some of these "kid-haters" do speak at high schools

They volunteer with youth. They teach them in the schools. They work with them daily. They are parents. They are students themselves. You have no idea who these "kid-haters" are so don't presume.

Your statement branding those opposed to lowering the voting age as "kid-haters" is blatantly wrong. It's the same as saying antiwar people are unAmerican.

Debate the issue if you want but don't throw in things that are not proven or are false.

[Padme Amidala]

84. Yeh. I keep hearing about the arrests of people abusing kids in schools.

If they said the things in high school they say here, the students would shove them out the door.

[MaineDem]

130. If now you're equating people who disagree with you to child abusers...

It's not worth trying to dicuss anything logically with you.

Enjoy this thread.

[genius]

141. That's not what she said.

However, disrespect for the younger generation's intelligence and opposition to their rights is abusive.

[TheDonkey]

77. this isn't really an issue I think Dems need to spend time on

I'm sort of conflicted with the age-limit on voting. It's great to get young people active and involved in politics but it's worrisome that their vote might be heavily swayed by parents. I have a cousin who is very young mentally yet physically has the age to vote and it's sad how she votes for whoever her parents tell her too (even if she doesn't like them!).

Lowering the age to 17 isn't bad but really isn't necessary imo. Now giving DC the right to be represented in the Senate and House would be a great issue for us and be to Democrats advantage.

[ISUGRADIA]

80. You are so right about DC

larger than a what, 4 or 5 states in pop but still disenfranchised. Now that's a voting right issue I'd wish we get back on the agenda.

[K-W]

87. The california democratic party isnt exactly in a position to pass laws

regarding DC representation.

[Padme Amidala]

90. It controls the California legislature and CA often leads the country

in legislation.

[ISUGRADIA]

93. Democrats control the legislature, the party does not

that's an important distinction. Candidates are free agents anymore, political parties don't have the strenght you think they do.

[genius]

97. The Democratic Party controls the primaries of the majority party.

The members from each AD, SD and CD endorse the legislative candidates of their choice for the state legislature, making it more likely that those that tow the party line will get the nominations. Seven out of twelve people can control who gets in.

[ISUGRADIA]

111. Actually it is the primary voters who decide who gets in

and money talks. Political party endorsements are of a marginal effect on voters. Even where I'm at, MN, where the party endorsement process is a much more formalized process than almost any other state the DFL endorsed candidate for offices still often times lose. Senator Dayton ran against th DFL endorsed candidate. So di Humphrey for Governor in 98. All I am saying is that most voters don't pay attention to party endorsements, they want to be "independent" thinkers and not told what to do.

[genius]

113. In CA, CDP endorsements usually determine winners in state leg primaries

The voters usually look at lists of people the party has endorsed and vote for them. The endorsements also matter in the California Congressional races.

[K-W]

110. That makes no sense in this context.

California residents already have congressional representation.

In fact, one could argue that this law is as close as California could come to legislation that might lead the nation towards enfranchising more people.

[genius]

114. Democratic voters often base votes in district primaries on endorsements

The CDP endorsement is the most important one. The candidates often court the Democrats who will determine the endorsements to make sure they get 60%.

[K-W]

124. What on earth does that have to do with Washington DC

getting congressional representation?

[genius]

139. This thread is not about D.C. getting congressional representation

I support DC Congressional representation though.

[K-W]

167. My post was about DC representation, Misunderstanding :) EOM

[ISUGRADIA]

78. Oh, by the way I don't support these rights for 14 year olds either:

* to sign binding contracts
* to go into the military
* to be drafted into the military
* to drink alcohol publicly (the European in me says let them imbibe wine at home with their parents though)
* to be tried as adults
* to marry
* to have sex with someone who's 40 without it being a crime for the 40 year old
* to drive without an instructor
* to serve jury duty
* to be put in jail with older adults

[genius]

94. Good grief. Post about a step forward and get anti-human rights responses

I expect better of people who claim to be Democrats. A lot of people should be ashamed of themselves.

[T Town Jake]

104. "A lot of people should be ashamed of themselves"...

...starting with the backers of this ridiculous notion...

[Silverhair]

106. The basic premise of your argument is false.

You proceed from the assumption that youth are the same as adults. They aren't, and you know that too.

[fujiyama]

147. Honestly this seems like such a joke

The idea of having a minimum voting age being compared to racism is frankly insulting.

[Padme Amidala]

197. Bigotry is not a joke except to those who support oppression

Your reasoning is faulty. Kids who do the work are not dying without a chance to vote in a Presidential election. This is about human rights. This is the reason the National Youth Rights Association was formed. In addition the the NYRA and the CDP, America needs indivudals of courage and integrity ready to do what it takes to end this opporession.

[Silverhair]

98. Would that mean we would see ads of our candidates on skateboards? NT

[Wizard777]

100. In Maryland we allowed Minors to register and vote in our primaries.

If they would be of voting age (18) for the General Election in the Governors Race. We didn't think it was fair to bring them into the process right at the end. A sampling was interviewed in the various Media. I must say I was impressed with them. They seemed to have a better grasp on the issues than a lot of the adults.

I don't have a problem with trying this on the state level. Then Amending the Constitution to lower the national voting age for the federal elections. It's only fair. We have another Republican failed treasonous never ending paramilitary civil war on drugs raging on in Baltimore City. Teenagers are being killed by cops and each other. They are being put on trial as Adults. They should be given a voice and a vote to back it up with. Maybe then they put down their arms and begin to form PAC's instead of gangs. I think a proper place in Democracy can help cure them of the hopelessness they are turning to drugs and violence to cope with. We need to empower our Youth that the Republicans have adopted a seek and destroy policy on. I think this is a very Important part of taking Baltimore from being the City that Bleeds to being the City that Heals.

[genius]

115. Excellent points.

I, also, think it will make a difference and give the youth a much more positive outlet.

[T Town Jake]

103. Sure...

...why not just do away with voting ages altogether, and let toddlers cast a ballot? Barney 2008!

:sarcasm:

[sunnystarr]

108. 16 seems to be the transitional age

At 16 you can be emancipated and live on your own. After 16 it's no longer statutory rape when you have sex. 16 year olds have joined the military and fought for our country. In Europe high school is over at 16. And honestly at least half of the voters don't have any more sense (and probably have less sense) than 16 year olds.

Talk to the mature "man on the street" and see how few can name the president or vice-president. See how few have any clue where Iraq is. See how few can name the branches of our government. See how many believe that we've found WMDs. See how many believe that Saddam attacked us on 9/11. 16 year olds can't do any worse on the issues than those who are already voting.

Besides that, the majority of men that I've known have never matured past 16 lol.

[genius]

116. Great comments.

16 years would seem a good age, especially in view of the points you make. I've noticed, too, that most guys don't mature past 16.

[rinsd]

160. A couple of things....

"At 16 you can be emancipated and live on your own."

True...though the process is not an easy one.

"After 16 it's no longer statutory rape when you have sex."

It depends on the state...many are adopting 18 including CA.

"16 year olds have joined the military and fought for our country."

Years ago but I think 17 is the minimum with parents approval.

"In Europe high school is over at 16."

It depends.

[Silverhair]

107. Any serious attempt to lower the voting age to 14

would result in devastating electoral defeat for our party at all levels. We would be branded as a party totally lacking in common sense. And the label would stick for at least two generations.

[genius]

119. Although 16 or 17 is more likely, it would guarantee a win for advocates

of lowering the voting age. Imagine high school and junior high school students working not just for a generalized cause that doesn't affect them but working with all their might for those who would give them a say in their future. Parents of those kids, aunts, uncles and grandparents would vote for the candidates such hope. Getting kids into politics will be appreciated by parents who will be glad their kids are not into drugs or gangs. These parents will probably donate generously to the candidates calling for a lowering of the voting age. Of course, any candidate opposing this stance would lose by a landslide.

[Silverhair]

120. You are dreaming and need to wake up.

There is no huge demand for a lower voting age. The rest of recognize a difference between and 14yr olds and 18yr olds.

[genius]

121. Nope. I know that high schoolers are better campaigers than adults.

I've seen their work. It's not just high schoolers, younger kids normally do more work than 20 adults put together. They have more energy and are much more effective than those of voting age.

[Silverhair]

126. The have lots of energy & enthusiam, but NOT maturity & experience.

Those are only available with age.

[mr715]

127. Nicely Said!

Passion without wisdom leads to anarchy.

[sunnystarr]

131. ummm how many adults do you know that don't have maturity

and never learned a damn thing from their experience? Please take a good look around. If we used that as voting criteria then we would eliminate half the population.

[Silverhair]

132. That's trying to make a rule from the exceptions.

Yes, Mozart was writing music at 4. And I recently read of some child super genius that doing serious college level work at 6. Do you think I am going to expect that of every 6yr old.

There will always be people at the extremes of the bell curve on anything. But the vast bulk of the people in the middle of the curve will not fit into the extremes.

The case that I have made fits the overwhelming majority of the human population. And that it what the law must do. A few superkids may have to wait to vote, and some 50yr old but still immature ones will get to vote. Tough luck.

To try to let ALL 14 year old vote because a rare one here and there may be ready will be bad public policy.

As a general rule for the great majority of humans, my statement of maturity holds. And you just can't get experience any way except the hard way - by living - and that takes time.

[genius]

134. I think you have the exception backwards.

Kids tend to be more advanced and better informed than adults. Smart adults and dumb kids are the exceptions. Otherwise kids wouldn't be walking out of schools to protest Bush and adults wouldn't be letting the thief run the country into disaster.

[Silverhair]

136. I substitute teach in the schools.

Kids tend to be more advanced and better informed than adults.

Then why are they in school? Make them the teachers and have the teachers take class from the kids. The problem is that what I mean as sarcasm, you would probably think is a good idea.

I was in a history class a few months ago, (I usually teach in the sciences.) and the kids were getting WWI, WWII and Vietnam mixed up. When I was in high school, I didn't make mistakes like that.

Smart adults and dumb kids are the exceptions.

You have been watching too many old sitcoms where the kids know everything that is worth knowing and the parents are dumb and only know unimportant stuff like - how to hold a job. Real life isn't like that.

[genius]

138. Bad teachers are the reason more parents are homeschooling

Often the students know more than the teachers and are bored, sitting there being ordered to learn nothing. Kids who learn outside of school are told they will become outcasts. I was with a group that was discussing this problems. There is some new insulting name the teachers call the kids who learn on their own. I don't recall what they said it was. But I've witnessed this problem first hand. In fact, the number one reason kids are now being pulled out for homeschooling is because they only way they will be allowed to learn is outside of school. There are conventions in every county with thousands of kids in this situation.

The reason that so many kids are on drugs is that it is the only way incompetent teachers can keep them from learning.

[Silverhair]

148. And who teaches in those homeschools?

It wouldn't happen to be parents would it? Of course, in your fantasy world the kids are probably being schooled by other, younger kids. You act like we are born with full educations and start forgetting.

[ISUGRADIA]

152. Actual research shows that most homeschooled kids

are from conservative famillies who don't want their kids indoctrinated in "secular humanism" and "unchristian" ideas. But don't let facts interfere with your fantasy world and attacks on teachers.

Your "incompetent teachers" attack is right out of the reactionary right, anti-public school handbook. I for one think we need public education and not privatize it.

[genius]

156. Homeschooled kids score higher on entrance exams and are in higher demand

at a lot of colleges. Homeschooled kids have an advantage at Harvard and M.I.T. and most other major universities. It has generally been found that homeschooled kids are better students and much more adapted for college programs. The UC system is the last holdout and it's considering opening its doors wide to them. It's doing a big experiment with comparing homeschooled kids and other students in the Inland Empire.

[ISUGRADIA]

161. Any educational program where the teacher to student ratio

is 1-1 or 1-3 compared to the public schools 1-25 or 1-35 more like it anymore is obviously going to give students more aqttention and individualized attention. I never said that homeschooled kids are studpid though those schooled with a fundamentalist tint are more indocrinated than taught.

Public schools are by their nature "public". They take the fast learners with the slow. Conservatives are slowly starving public schools to death financially they they complain when performance goes down. Being from California I'd think you'd recognize that public schools have been underfunded there since prop 13 and that teacher bashing is a right wing past time.

Do brilliant kids get shortchanged in a lot of public schools? Of course! We need to remedy the problem rather than saying teachers are to blame.

[sunnystarr]

151. 16 is a valid age and probably represents the

mentality of a majority of the people in the US. It's not the exception unfortunately. I have more faith in the young people who should have a say in their future. It's also possible that by giving them civic responsibility that they would get more involved throughout their adulthood. 16 is a legal age to marry in many states. Many 16 year olds are already mothers. We give the death penalty to 16 year olds. Once the 21 year old age of majority was changed it opened the barn door. Of course they wanted it changed so that college students could sign for their own credit cards on campus and be a part of debtor society. So lets let 16 year olds gain a political education that will be a more positive influence on their lives.

[genius]

159. Great comments.

You are right about all of that.

[ISUGRADIA]

153. Bullshit "younger kids normally do more work than 20 adults"

I've worked on campaigns for 20 years and have seen some energizied mid teen kids volunteering but never at the output you state. And that's been a handful of motivated teens compared to untold scores of adult volunteers who spend enormous hours on a campaign not to mention paid staffers who put in 60, 70 hr weeks.

9 times out of 10 kids wo come to work a campaign are soon to say two things 1) "can you sign my extra credit sheet" and 2) "can I go now" Sums up the mindset of most children.

[ibegurpard]

154. Most of the people volunteering when I've done it

have been senior citizens.

:shrug:

[genius]

155. In most areas there are more youth and the youth get better results.

You can tell the areas where the youth volunteers are strongest as those have a higher pecentage of votes for the Democratic candidates than there are Democrats in the district. The fourteen year old who pushed the resolution has a history of convincing Republicans to vote Democrat. The youth are generally better informed about their candidates and can be much more convincing.

[ISUGRADIA]

162. Proof of this?

I'd be more willing to believe you with some evidence of this from a source. And a statistical law: association does not necessarily mean causation.

And it's more likely that an individual you that is informed can be more convincing that let's say a 50 year old for the novelty factor of an informed 13, 14 year old. But that is an exception, most kids are not informed.

[MaineDem]

165. I'm interested in seeing some valid proof, as well

I've been working in campaigns since I was 16; I've seen quite a bit. But i can't say I've seen a great many teens involved in campaigning. Some? Sure. But last year, other than some College Dems, we mostly had retired people volunteering or working adults in their spare time. Very very few under 20.

In fact, at a meeting I attended the other night, getting youth involved was a major point of one of the speakers.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ISUGRADIA]

177. Must be in a special part of California different that rest of the country

I've worked on various campaigns and worked with the Democratic Party to recruit poll watchers. No more that a small percentage have been under 18, ditto precinct walkers in 20 years experience.

Talking to fellow campaign staffers working in different states during the years I have never heard of involvement by youth that you claim.

[LittleClarkie]

179. I worked the campaign in Wisconsin

and mostly those I worked with were over 18, precinct workers or otherwise.

Perhaps it was different in your neck of the woods.

FYI.

[MaineDem]

180. How fantastic for you that the youth have been so active in your area

I'm thrilled to read that. I really am. How marvelous!

I must have been working in the wrong campaigns for the past 30+ years. Or else I'm lying and just tring to make noise.

:eyes:

[genius]

181. I've also watched the youth get results where adults fail.

I remember watching a situation where adults were trying to hand out flyers on a campaign in a conservative area. No one would take them. Then some kids came up and everyone in sight started taking their flyers. So the adults on the campaign handed all their flyers to the kids, who distributed all of them in a very short time. The adults couldn't find much to do but stand around an watch. This is a typical example of how much more effective kids are.

Now, if a Democratic office or group discriminates against the kids, they may get an adults-only office but the productivity will be cut way down.

[ISUGRADIA]

186. No one here has said not involve kids in politics

In fact you have presented a great example of why kids should be involved. A conservative might be rude and nasty to an adult, but the same attitude won't fly with kids.

We should expose our kids to politics at an early age! They are the one that will be paying the debt we are racking up now. But it's a legitamate question to ask what should be the voting age. If not 18, 16? If not 16, 14? Why not 12?

Why not 8?

[genius]

188. The CA Democratic Party believes in giving rights to those who do the work

That's what this is all about.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genius]

145. This was an honorable step by our party. Celebrate.

Our party is doing the right thing.

[Silverhair]

163. Hundreds of millions of years of evolution are against you.

Among all animal species on earth, of those that form groups and have leaders of those groups, there is not one single species that has juveniles for leaders. In all of human history, there has not been one single society that has looked to juveniles for leadership.

The brutal fact of biology is that the human body, including the brain, is still physically maturing until about 18 to 21 years of age. A 14 year old is simply NOT an adult yet and is NOT able to handle the tasks of adulthood. And biology will not pay attention to any number of protest marches, petition drives, or any laws.

And there is absolutely no short cut way to gain experience. That requires time on the planet.

[LittleClarkie]

172. Which, I reckon, probably pisses off the juveniles in question no end

And yet, I agree. Life itself is a bitch at 14.

I could just about live with 16 or 17 however.

[Solon]

191. So I guess you support these positions...

NO trying of 14+ year olds as adults for ANY crime.

Do not allow emancipation for 16 year olds and above from their families.

14 year olds are not allowed to work on farms, 16 year olds in factories.

Also, should all people less than 18 years old be exempt from income taxes(State and Federal), excluding Social Security?

[David Zephyr]

168. I support lowering the voting age.

If someone can pay federal and state taxes through paycheck deductions, then they should be able to vote. After all, taxation without representation was the cry of the land during our revolution, wasn't it?

Certainly, 16+ should be able to vote.

[LittleClarkie]

170. 16 would be better than 14, indeed

At 16, we trust you to drive.

I believe at 16, you can be emancipated from your parents.

16 would be about as low as I would go, however.

[ISUGRADIA]

174. 16 is a much more argueable cutoff than 14 for a potential

lowering of the age to vote. But unfortunately, anything that's not 14 or up get one branded as an anti-youth bigot by some here despite any evidence that children of 14 are not adults in most other respects (being able to drop out of school, work unlimited hours, sign contracts, enter the military, etc.).

[sepia_steel]

187. Sorry, but this is NOT

a "distraction". Both causes are worthy ones.

[genius]

194. Thank you. You are right. Both causes are worthy.

[Moderator]

200. Locking due to length,

thread two is here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2035389