Latest kerry information about the lawsuit innuendos

[ray of light]

This is straight from a reliable source:


Kerry conceded because he lost the popular vote, and with that, the ability to legitimately/politically ask for an immediate recount.

He never intended to NOT investigate the vote, particularly in Ohio. But I saw the email from his campaign manager in Ohio--the one that said there was no evidence of outright fraud AT THAT TIME.

No one sat around--there was a huge amount of investigation--and much has come to light over time.

I understand that, had they been able to get anyone to come forward with proof, they would have called for an investigation before the vote was certified in January.

I also understand that John Kerry has supported the investigation of all legitimate concerns about the 2004 elections. He knows what happened.

There were, apparently, three lawsuits in Ohio. The one that PDA is asking people to complain about is the first--the Badnarik-Green lawsuit. It is not a strong case. Lawyers have advised that this one is not winnable.

There are TWO MORE LAWSUITS and THEY are going forward. The second and third lawsuits are, according to my sources, based more on the civil rights issues and Kerry-Edwards are indeed part of these suits.

It is also my understanding that more evidence has come out, and perhaps, some testimonials from observers within the state, with evidence. Ohio is not over. And John Kerry has not stopped fighting.

He never has and he won't. He is a quiet warrior, but he is a warrior.

You can take that to the bank--

see http://www.democracycellproject.net (blog)
edited to give link:
http://www.democracycellproject.net/blog/archives/2005/08/a_mothers_dream.html

[Jim Sagle]

1. Thank you. And I hope it unfolds as you describe.

[The Backlash Cometh]

2. Thank you. Appreciate the update. n/t

[Carla in Ca]

3. This is good news, I didn't realize

so much was still going on. Thanks for posting this.

[flpoljunkie]

4. One of the other lawsuits brought by the Ohio League of Women Voters.

On August 30, Chief Judge of the U.S. District Court James G. Carr, assigned to all three cases, will hold a status conference.

Carr, James G.

Born November 14, 1940, in Boston, MA

Federal Judicial Service:

U. S. District Court, Northern District of Ohio

Nominated by William J. Clinton on January 27, 1994 to a seat vacated by Richard B. McQuade, Jr.

Confirmed by the Senate on May 6, 1994, and received commission on May 9, 1994.

http://www.ohnd.uscourts.gov/Judges/District/Carr__James_G_/Carr__Bio/carr__bio.html

[LittleClarkie]

29. Keep us posted on that, if you would

Thanks for the info!

[flpoljunkie]

49. Information on the LWV of Ohio lawsuit vs. Ken Blackwell and Gov. Taft

http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/2005/07/federal-law-suit-to-reform-ohio.html

OHIO VOTERS FILE HISTORIC LAWSUIT
AGAINST STATE CHARGING
UNCONSTITUTIONAL ADMINISTRATION OF ELECTIONS

Non-Partisan Lawsuit Seeks to Redress Decades-Old Constitutional Defects in the Way Ohio Conducts Federal Elections July 28, 2005

(Toledo, OH) – Seeking to redress decades-old Constitutional defects in the way Ohio conducts federal elections, the League of Women Voters of Ohio, the League of Women Voters of Toledo-Lucas County, and more than a dozen Ohio citizens today filed a historic, non-partisan lawsuit against the State of Ohio.

The lawsuit alleges that Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell, Governor Bob Taft, and their predecessors have failed to protect the fundamental rights of eligible Ohio voters to cast a meaningful ballot, as required by the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. In addition, the complaint contends that Ohio has not met its obligations under the Help America Vote Act.

The lawsuit does not challenge the results of any past elections, but instead seeks to bring about changes necessary to protect the rights of Ohio voters in future elections. Filed in federal court in Toledo, the complaint chronicles deficiencies over more than three decades, including widespread problems with the voter registration system, the absentee and provisional ballot processes, the training of poll workers, the organization of polling places and precincts, and the allocation of voting machines. The lawsuit seeks to compel the state to uphold its constitutional obligation to provide for the voting-related needs of its citizens in time for the November 2006 general election. The relief sought would require the state to repair the problems at all stages of the electoral process that have disenfranchised and overly burdened Ohio voters and made the ability to vote and be counted vary widely from county to county. “This lawsuit is not about overturning election results, it’s about fixing a broken election system that is preventing people from having their vote counted,” said Peg Hull Smith, spokesperson for the League of Women Voters of Toledo-Lucas County.

Linda Lalley, Co-President of the League of Women Voters of Ohio said, “This is a very important day for the voters of Ohio. Through its nonpartisan, good-government activities, the League of Women Voters of Ohio has been working for 85 years to guarantee that the voices of all eligible Ohioans are heard when they go to the polls. This lawsuit will bring us much closer to that goal. We are excited to join with voters from all over Ohio to help bring an end to the inadequate system of elections provided by the state.” “We are proud to represent this dedicated group of Ohio voters. This lawsuit will begin the process of restoring the infrastructure of democracy so we can honor the promise that the Constitution provides for every Ohioan,” said Jon Greenbaum, part of the plaintiffs’ legal team and Director of the Lawyers’ Committee’s Voting Rights Project. “Regardless of your political affiliation or county of residence, the right to vote is precious and we must have a system that guarantees and protects that right.”

more...

[oldtime dfl_er]

5. I guess I appreciate those quiet warrior tactics

but in the meantime this country is going down the tubes. It's nearly too late now.

http://www.cafepress.com/scarebaby/654252

[Noisy Democrat]

7. And your point is? n/t

[oldtime dfl_er]

10. My point is that the current resident of the WH

whom I consider illegitimate, is destroying democracy AND the democratic process. I admire Kerry for quietly continuing to investigate, but if much more time goes by, there will be no recourse, ever. That's all.

[meganmonkey]

54. The most important thing this could accomplish

is stopping yet another unlawful taking of the WH. If the truth doesn't come out, then what will happen in 2006? 2008? Will the country act surprised again about all the 'irregularities'?

I hope what the OP says is true, and that the truth gets exposed regardless of who is in the WH for the next couple years. Never Give Up.

[Fly by night]

6. Kerry should keep fighting on all three legal fronts in Ohio.

Hell, we're fighting to protect our votes and save our democracy on 50 fronts. Besides, with much more evidence available to support all three cases (and Cobb/Bednarik's focus of fraud, for which there is now beaucoup evidence in Ohio), a "friend" would bring support and resources to bear on all three cases.

There is no reason for Kerry to back out of anything in Ohio. The evidence is overwhelming. Just read Conyers, Fitrakis, Eaton, the Clermont sticker fruad, the multiple affidavits filed by observers during the faux recount, etc, etc, on to the horizon.

Don't stop fighting on any front, and don't stop being a "friend" to any case alleging election fraud. Before you do, why don't you give Bob Fitrakis, Cliff Arnebeck, RH Phillips, Richard Reinoehl, Joanne Roush and Bernie Windham two hours of your time to hear the evidence. Or better yet, PM me and I will get you the videos of their presentations at the National Election Reform Conference in Nashville in April. In less than two hours, Kerry will know all he needs to know (and more than his advisors have told him) about the Ohio election theft.

This is a serious offer. So if you have someone's ear near my President, please PM me and we will Fed Ex the tape to anyone who can get it to Kerry. It sure beats watching a pre-season Patriots game.

[ray of light]

14. no--you don't fight a case in court that will get thrown out

Any lawyer would tell you that. Kerry and his lawyers would have gone over that question. They are staying with the suits they can win.

But I just want to add this side note:

copied from a different blog, but to me expresses my thinking too.

What happened in the campaign is over, and I am hard-pressed to find anyone who was on the inside who still isn't somewhat shocked by the level of illegal activity by the opposition that went on.

I was not one of those "they stole Ohio" people, believe me. I was more one of those "they are Republicans, they should expect cheating" people. But then I thought to myself, WHY? Why should we allow ourselves to become so accustomed to dishonesty of the machinery of honest and free government that we must plan for it?

I will tell you something else I am glad Kerry lost, given what happened with the Senate. If Kerry had one, he would not have been able to govern, but would have gotten all the blame. And NONE of the things, the widespread corruption would have been uncovered, because the Democracts would have been satisfied with the win and sat back on their fat asses until the next crisis came down the pike.

So now we are all working to expose the ENTIRE culture of corruption that has infected all of the mechanisms of our freedom and democracy.

[ray of light]

15. I can't pm you

you've disabled your pm thing. So how about you pm me.

[LittleClarkie]

19. Use the stamp looking thing next to the face (profile) icon

That doesn't appear to be disabled. Email icon, is it?

[ray of light]

25. Thank you

Little Clarkie. I'm still learning the in's and outs around here.

[LittleClarkie]

26. Hey, I just figured that out five minutes ago

I hope it works. Else hopefully he answers you.

[ray of light]

28. Ok

well, I tried it. We'll see what happens.

[Fly by night]

44. It's not disabled. Just click on the wavy letter -- that's how you send PM

or you could just email me at [e-mail] . Either way, let me know who you know and how I can get them the videotape from the Ohio panel at the National Election Reform Conference and I will send it right away. Thanks.

[peacetalksforall]

8. I may be more confused than ever?????

You say there are -

three lawsuits:

1. Badnarik-Green - weak. What is it's name - is it an electoral lawsuit - what branch of law? Is this the one that Kerry and Edwards dropped? What is it's label?

2. Civil lawsuit A - what is it about? Is there a label?

3. Civil lawsuit B = what is it about? Is there a label?

I feel the questions are justified because the right wing propaganda machines are going to say that Kerry and Edwards dropped THE LAWSUIT IN OHIO and they will say - therefore Bush is the legitimate winner and any reference to ongoing lawsuits will never be mentioned - all to confuse and get people to believe the half-story.

I believe Dems and Independents should be able to understand and refute the distortions and misrepresentations that may come.

[ray of light]

36. Badnarik-Green

is the fraud lawsuits. It is the harder one to prove. And if my understanding is correct, if they went to court without enough evidence the first time, they would not get a second chance should more evidence appear.

The second and third are the civil rights violation ones.

I'll see if I can get specific names or details.

[peacetalksforall]

57. Revised list of suits based on your latest message:

1. Badnarik-Green: Fraud lawsuit. Considered weak for now until more information comes up. K and E (B and G?) want to drop to avoid losing the suit because would not be able to refile?????? Is this civil?

2. Civil case A - civil rights violation?

3. Civil case B - civil rights violation?

What is the substance of 2 and 3?

Or just send me to a link.

Thanks!

[ray of light]

80. Ok...I'm checking

This is what I discovered. The papers have been filed. From my source, they would prefer the details not be released in the blogosphere-to be argued and morphed into something entirely new in the blogosphere--so right now it needs to stay where it is.

As I'm allowed to release more specific information, I will. But for now, it is better that the circus atmosphere stay away from these cases.

edited to include what I discovered.

[pacalo]

9. Thank you!

[Noisy Democrat]

11. This is great

Thank you for the information. I wish we knew even more, such as case numbers, but I really appreciate this post.

[blue sky at night]

12. I gave him some money after the election....

they asked for some more this week....I am giving it to them, your letter affirms my trust. Thank you.

[LittleClarkie]

16. I coughed up 20 bucks last week I couldn't afford

I'm afraid that will be it for a while.

[blue sky at night]

52. hey thats great...........

it is the thought that counts you know.

[Imagevision]

13. Well, either way we'll see just how much of a warrior Mr. Kerry is.

I wish him the best and a victory, allowing Bush to continue to rule the US. for 3 1\2 more years is getting more dangerous weekly!!

[ray of light]

17. yes, but this is important!

copied from a different blog, but to me expresses my thinking too.

What happened in the campaign is over, and I am hard-pressed to find anyone who was on the inside who still isn't somewhat shocked by the level of illegal activity by the opposition that went on.

I was not one of those "they stole Ohio" people, believe me. I was more one of those "they are Republicans, they should expect cheating" people. But then I thought to myself, WHY? Why should we allow ourselves to become so accustomed to dishonesty of the machinery of honest and free government that we must plan for it?

I will tell you something else I am glad Kerry lost, given what happened with the Senate. If Kerry had one, he would not have been able to govern, but would have gotten all the blame. And NONE of the things, the widespread corruption would have been uncovered, because the Democracts would have been satisfied with the win and sat back on their fat asses until the next crisis came down the pike.

So now we are all working to expose the ENTIRE culture of corruption that has infected all of the mechanisms of our freedom and democracy.

[globalvillage]

47. .

Nice star.
:hi:

[Eloriel]

18. And *I* have it from reliable sources heavily involved in the recount

efforts that Kerry&Co. were basically worthless.

Doesn't appear to me that anything's changed. YMMV, I suppose.

How 'bout some links to those two lawsuits he's going to stay involved in? How 'bout some links to analysis about the "unwinnability" of the one he's dropping out of? (Translation: I don't believe you -- but it's not your fault, it's theirs. IOW: I don't believe your "reliable sources." If they're reliable, it will be the first time.)

[ray of light]

21. ok...well the lawyers agree and so you don't have to believe me

Time will tell!

[LittleClarkie]

Sounds like they're going more for the suppression angle

and less for the fraud angle. That will be unacceptable to some who consider the Diebold fraud more important. But as I've said before, you can't run into court based on what you THINK happened. Kerry the former DA would never do that, I reckon.

But then again, they got Capone on tax fraud rather than murder, didn't they. I don't care how they get them, as long as they get them.

There's a reason I still support this man. Thanks for the confirmation.

[ray of light]

27. I agree!

I just want them STOPPED and one way or another they will answer in a court of law!

[Eloriel]

35. That's your response to a request for more info ??

"Time will tell"? "Wait and see"?

Well, in that case, I can share with you that to the best of my memory, all the OTHER projections and predictions by pro-Kerry folks were all been shown to be wishful thinking when it came right down to crunch time.

But YOU absolutely FILL ME WITH HOPE that Kerry really is a warrior, after all. Yessireee, despite all indications to the contrary. I am therefore ready to denounce my cynicism and start believing again, just on the strength of your persuasive argumentation.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sniffa]

48. ha!

:thumbsup:

[ray of light]

43. Golly gee...imagine how the court of laws managed to run

for two hundred years without LINKS to the EVIDENCE to be brought before a court of law.

In fact, every rape, murder, robbery, and theif should HAVE LINKS IN CYBERSPACE in order to be legitimate. AND imagine all those people in prison--and their attorneys and the Prosecuting attorneys DIDN'T POST LINKS in cyber space. Guess they must all be wrong too.

You may think your cynism is a persuasive argument in itself, but tell that to all the judges out there who don't get their evidence in cyberspace but instead hear them in a court of law.

[kerrygoddess]

98. I don't believe there are any links to any of this...

Does Conyers have links?

They are working on this. Conyers knows this. Others do, sorry some here don't understand the need to keep the information they have under wraps until the cases come to trial. That is very common in any type of lawsuit or criminal case, you don't go broadcasting evidence.

[ray of light]

23. also, as I've posted to many of disbelievers before

Legal matters and investigations are usually NOT played out in the blogosphere. Did you really think they'll get evidence they need by posting LINKS here in cyberspace?


AND I spoke to Fritakis as well, and EVEN HE has SOURCES who he has not divulged to the public and release their "link" on cyberspace.

Time will indeed tell!

[Eloriel]

37. Oh, but they're not usually secret

Don't be silly. Go find info on the two law suits he's staying involved in. Frankly, I don't believe he's IN any other lawsuits. I also don't believe this one is appropriate for him to leave.

I'm not asking for anything not already public, so don't try to hide beyind your privileged sources, work product, strategy or other hush-hush stuff that just doesn't apply.

[ray of light]

83. actually, I'm being smart

Anyone can find this public information and verify it's veracity. BUT you are trying to boil it down to one unwinable case. He's involved in the two that are winable.

and you're asking for information that will make it easier for the freepers to access and twist--as we know they do so well. So you will have to do the work yourself since it's a matter of public info. But frankly, I've seen enough of the freepers to know not to simplify their life by giving them information carte-blanche. You want to help them...then that's your business.

[emulatorloo]

20. Kicking

[Imagevision]

22. Can't understand why Blackwell remained out of control he even

managed to not be forced to be questioned,or give deposition??

Tom Feeny contracts software programmer to create program that would/could flip the votes in an election?? - that remains mind-boggling!

[ray of light]

24. I agree.

but from what I've learned about Ohio, they're system has been corrupt for years and it really wasn't known until now. AND furthermore, the judges refused to excuse themselves and Ascroft and Gonzalez would NEVER have a fair investigation.

The foxes are running the henhouse in Ohio and in the US!

[wli]

30. which lawsuit is which? He's not dropping the case vs. Diebold is he?

Sequoia, Diebold, and ES&S all need to get very, very heavily prosecuted.

[LittleClarkie]

31. Two civil rights cases going forward, fraud case appears a no go

They're going at it more from the suppression than the fraud angle, as they don't feel there is enough provable evidence, despite knowing what happened. As Teresa said right after the election, what they really needed was the evidence. They needed someone esp. to sing like a birdie.

I know this won't be acceptable to some. But they appear to be going for the cases they think they can win.

[ray of light]

32. I think that's smart too!

Because as time goes on, they will probably find a *canary* but IF they were to go forward NOW, then they would lose their opportunity of trying again. (At least that is my understanding of the laws in our country that only allow the police to bring forward a case once. I think it's called double jeopardy?)

[wli]

34. ARGH! NO! ARGH!

[kerrygoddess]

33. Can everyone please read this from Conyers today -

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2019693

Obviously Mr Conyers gets it. There are fights that we can fight and there are fights that we can not fight. Kerry/Edwards are fighting the two viable cases among the 3 Ohio cases.

[KoKo]

64. But, you leave out this part that Conyers said in your snip:

I think I can predict the initial reaction of many of you who have been closely following the Ohio 2004 Presidential election investigations. You will be disappointed that Mr. Krugman stops short of saying the election fraud and irregularities in the 2004 election cost Senator Kerry the White House. While it is no secret what conclusion I have drawn about that question, I do not share this disappointment.

I know that many of my fellow progressives think the official margin of victory for Bush in Ohio, well over 100,000 votes, is too large a margin to be entirely reversed by proof of fraud or malfeasance. For them to believe that to be the case, they need to see some reasonable quantification of the actual voters who were disenfranchised and, in turn, the actual votes that were lost. After all, unlike the Republicans who still think Saddam Hussein possessed WMD when we invaded Iraq and believe we are winning the war, who think that tax cuts for the wealthy will grow the economy and reduce the deficit, who think a grieving mother and an Ambassador's wife are "fair game," and who think that the way to fix Social Security is to destroy it, we progressives are a “reality based community.”

The problem with answering my fellow progressives' challenge for numbers is that so much of what happened in Ohio centered on unquantifiable events that makes counting the number of disenfranchised voters impossible. How can we determine exactly how many Kerry voters turned around and went home facing hopelessly long lines at the polls? Or how many voters were never registered, and were turned away on election day, because of bizarre and conflicting Ken Blackwell edits about the weight of voter registration forms? Or how many votes were lost because of machine defects or manipulation?

What I can say is what the House Judiciary Committee Democratic Staff said best in the Conyers report: "We have found numerous, serious election irregularities in the Ohio presidential election, which resulted in a significant disenfranchisement of voters. Cumulatively, these irregularities, which affected hundreds of thousand of votes and voters in Ohio, raise grave doubts regarding whether it can be said the Ohio electors selected on December 13, 2004, were chosen in a manner that conforms to Ohio law, let alone federal requirements and constitutional standards."* Is there an exact number? No. Was it potentially a net loss of more than 100,000 Democratic votes? I think so. I continue to investigate what happened in Ohio and in the rest of the nation in the 2004 election and maybe someday the evidence will be sufficiently irrefutable to convince every fair-minded person of the extent and effect of electoral wrongdoing in 2004.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

38. Sounds Lame

Don't waste your time running in '08 Kerry. You will NOT have my vote, and frankly you would be taking away from a more viable candidate by even entering the race.

If you were robbed as clearly as it appears you were, and you know it, but wish to just remain silent, then that is your right. I don't ever plan to vote for someone with your lack of character though.

[ray of light]

39. Krugman gets it

Conyers gets it.

And then he gets to the heart of the matter: "We aren't going to rerun the last three elections. But what about the future?"

"Our current political leaders would suffer greatly if either house of Congress changed hands in 2006, or if the presidency changed hands in 2008. The lids would come off all the simmering scandals, from the selling of the Iraq war to profiteering by politically connected companies. The Republicans will be strongly tempted to make sure that they win those elections by any means necessary. And everything we've seen suggests that they will give in to that temptation."

Republicans find themselves with plunging poll numbers and an uncertain electoral landscape in 2006. Failure for them in their drive to keep control of the House of Representatives, and one party rule in Washington, means that, if reelected, I will become Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, Henry Waxman will become Chairman of the Government Reform Committee, Louise Slaughter will become Chair of the Rules Committee, Charlie Rangel will Chair the Ways and Means Committee, and Nancy Pelosi will be the first woman to be Speaker of the House. That means accountability for this Administration with a stiff dose of the truth.

Make no mistake about it. Desperate times will lead to desperate tactics and partisans supporting Republican candidates will pull out every dirty trick in the book to stop us from bringing checks and balances back to the federal government. What do we do about it?

First, we must be vigilant and we must use every legal means at our disposal to stop the pre and post election manipulations. Second, we must push for legislation at the state and federal level to reform our elections, including providing a voter verified paper ballot.

More immediately, however, we must work harder to take back the House and to do so by a large enough margin so that the malfeasance and fraud makes no difference. I want you to start today (the election is just a little more than 14 months away) because they are. Start organizing in your neighborhood and precinct. Join your local democratic party if you haven't already. Talk to your relatives and friends about how much is at stake in 2006. Support progressive and alternative media that help get our message out by spreading the word about your favorite progressive talk radio hosts and stations, and the blogs you read. Support the candidates of your choice by signing up to be a volunteer for their campaigns, for the DCCC, or by making a financial contribution. Write letters to the editor about the lack of accountability in our government for the bad decisions made by this Congress and this Administration.

In sum, I have a small request: do everything you did for the 2006 election that you did last year in a close Presidential election marred by malfeasance and fraud, and then do more. It is never too soon to start.



*Those irregularities included: "The misallocation of voting machines led to unprecedented long lines that disenfranchised scores, if not hundreds of thousands, of predominantly minority and Democratic voters"..."Mr. Blackwell’s decision to restrict provisional ballots resulted in the disenfranchisement of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of voters, again predominantly minority and Democratic voters"..."Mr. Blackwell’s widely reviled decision to reject voter registration applications based on paper weight may have resulted in thousands of new voters not being registered in time for the 2004 election"..."The Ohio Republican Party’s decision to engage in preelection “caging” tactics, selectively targeting 35,000 predominantly minority voters for intimidation had a negative impact on voter turnout"..."The Ohio Republican Party’s decision to utilize thousands of partisan challengers concentrated in minority and Democratic areas likely disenfranchised tens of thousands of legal voters, who were not only intimidated, but became discouraged by the long lines"..."We learned of improper purging and other registration errors by election officials that likely disenfranchised tens of thousands of voters statewide...The Greater Cleveland Voter Registration Coalition projects that in Cuyahoga County alone over 10,000 Ohio citizens lost their right to vote as a result of official registration errors."..."There were 93,000 spoiled ballots where no vote was cast for president, the vast majority of which have yet to be inspected"...."There were numerous, significant unexplained irregularities in other counties throughout the state, in Mahoning county at least 25 electronic machines transferred an unknown number of Kerry votes to the Bush column" and "in Miami county, voter turnout was an improbable and highly suspect 98.55 percent, and after 100 percent of the precincts were reported, an additional 19,000 extra votes were recorded for President Bush."

^ On some blogs, my staff advises me that the critique of allegations of irregularities has been so angry and accusatory, and allegations of irregularities so wild and unsubstantiated, that I could be banned for posting this entry -- the topic itself is forbidden.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

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[JanusAscending]

63. One question?

When it turns out that Pres. John Kerry gets the nomination again in 08,which by the way he deserves, just 'cause he EARNED IT!!!, who WILL YOU VOTE FOR? A republican? An independent? A write in vote?(wasted), or just not bother to vote? I think John Kerry is destined to be President. Remember, it took "tricky dick" two tries before he made it!!!:think:

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

65. Kerry Won't Get Nomination

And if he does, then chalk up another victory for the repubs. If he couldn't beat Shrub, then I'm sure the repubs could find someone else easy enough to put one over on him again.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

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[LittleClarkie]

71. In 06? No he won't

That's the election I'M focused on. How about you?

Go Kennedy! Beat Sensenbrenner!

[Imagevision]

90. In 06 the amount of election fraud will go thru the roof because

Repugs are already sweating the bad news from Bush - War, SS, etc-etc...
Several Repig Senators have already said they believe Bush war with bad results is taking too long -we're occuoiers etc..

Plus todays news>

Army Planning for 4 More Years in Iraq

WASHINGTON - The Army is planning for the possibility of keeping the current number of soldiers in
Iraq — well over 100,000 — for four more years, the Army's top general said Saturday.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/200...

[JanusAscending]

72. HELLOOOOOOOOO out there!!

HE DID BEAT SHRUB!!! or don't you read what's been posted???? It's up to us now!! All we need is ONE CLEAN ELECTION!! We Dems out number the repukes, and there are a lot of them who now wish they had voted for Kerry!!! Get with the program!!:banghead: Kerry promised although he lost, he'd have our backs. I believe him, and I'd FIGHT TO THE DEATH FOR HIM! Willing to make any wagers?

[politicasista]

42. Kick!

Thanks ray of light and KG.:kick:

[globalvillage]

45. Thanks ray.

Nice post. The PDA e-mail yesterday was a bit misleading.
They are typically pretty thorough.

:shrug:

Thanks for the clarification.

[dalloway]

46. glad to hear that. Thanks for posting.

I'm still a believer looking for reasons to believe.

[babsbunny]

50. Thank You!

I keep hoping they are working on things, and we can't know about it yet!

[snot]

51. If Kerry's intentions are what they should be, why isn't he supporting the

election reform legislation favored by Verfied Voting, S.330, the Voting Integrity and Verification Act of 2005? Instead he's supporting a weaker, watered-down bill--as garybeck put it,

""tell Hillary and Kerry this:"
Posted by garybeck
the Count Every Vote Act DOES NOT COUNT EVERY VOTE!! it is a farce to call it the Count Every Vote Act.
It only seeks to count 2% of the votes. The other 98% are never counted. They just sit in a pile in case discrepancies are found in the 2%."

I have written the Kerry folks about this more than once, and would be interested in their response.

[ray of light]

53. Could be because people have different opinions on what is better.

Even Andy Stephenson supported the Republican one against the Democrats insistance.


AND where is the specifics about WHY it's watered down? Perhaps others see benefits in the bill they're supporting.

[snot]

56. I have not seen any detailed analysis, and garybeck's response

was the only one I got to my posted question; but garybeck's a smart, knowledgeable guy, so I'm inclined to go with his recommendation and that of Verified Voting until someone who knows as much as they do explains why they're wrong.

[ray of light]

66. But that's the point. I think most people don't understand all the

pros and cons. And even within the election reform community there is disagreement: bev/andy, rep./dem, (andy supported the rep plan as being better than the dem one.), etc...

AND even within HAVA and they have disagreements

[snot]

84. If you're in communication with Kerry folks,

I hope you will tell them . . .

I've donated to Kerry, supported him, put a fair amount of time and energy into defending Kerry here after he conceded the election, and have hung with him for a long time . . .

but I am starting to feel the only guy in Congress who's really doing his job is Conyers.

I can't continue my faith in Kerry indefinitely; I need to see him taking the right stand on important issues.

My big issues right now are:
election reform,
media reform,
getting out of Iraq a.s.a.p.,
and investigating and holding to account those conservatives, particularly at the higher levels, who have wrought so much havoc with our election system, the war, and civil rights of individuals of all nationalities.

I realize a minority in Congress can only do so much, but I feel most Congressional Dems could and should have been doing much more than they have. E.g., whoever was in charge of the DNC report on the 2004 election should be fired--it was as much a white-wash as a report.

[kerrygoddess]

97. All the issues that you cite

Are all issues that Kerry has been working on and more. With the republicans in control we're pretty screwed in the Senate and the House. Kerry has been far more outspoken than other Dem Senators. Conyers and Waxman in my opinion have done an awesome job in the House.

2 different branches. Each serve their purpose on different issues. If you check Kerry's Senate website in the press section you will find countless press releases, letters, floor speeches etc on the issues you mentioned and many more.

We're all struggling with all of this, you're not alone.

[meganmonkey]

55. Wow - I thought the Cobb/Badnarik suit was the only one

still pending. Do you know if the info about the other 2 is available online? Who exactly are the suits against?

This is promising. I look forward to hearing more.

:kick:

[ray of light]

67. I'll look tomorrow..it's 1 am right now.

[jillan]

58. Ray of Light - You rock!

Thank you so much for posting this.
This answers alot of the unanswered questions I have had.

Nominated and Kicked !

:toast:

[globalvillage]

59. Hell, ray. I forgot to nominate your post.

Let me take care of that little oversight.
Thanks again. Great info.
:patriot:

[reprehensor]

60. Keep up the Fight, I say.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4369575

[tommcintyre]

61. This sounds like more political spin to me.

I would like to hear Arnebeck's, Fitrakis' and Cobb's response to this. In fact, I intend to send this opening post to all three parties, and ask for a response.

Meanwhile, I have to consider it "politics as usual".

"innuendos"? Hmm...

[ray of light]

69. That's fine

But I'd also like to mention that I SPOKE TO FRITAKIS directly and he even had information which he was not able to disclose. So unless he and kerry are working together and see the same facts, then it's very likely they may have different opinions.

So even if he said,"B.S!" that would not prove anything.

[tommcintyre]

76. It's all just too "convenient" for Kerry

First, is the "reliable source", a biased source? (I suspect it is.)

Next:
"Kerry conceded because he lost the popular vote, and with that, the ability to legitimately/politically ask for an immediate recount."
Of course, there is no such "rule" like this, is there? He certainly could've waited for more information to come in. Simply put, he CHOSE to concede so quickly, and for his own (and the Dem parties?) reasons - and certainly NOT because he lost the "ability" to do it.

"He never intended to NOT investigate the vote, particularly in Ohio. But I saw the email from his campaign manager in Ohio--the one that said there was no evidence of outright fraud AT THAT TIME."
It has always been about launching a SERIOUS investigation (on the level such as the 9-11 Commission). To date, this has not happened, and is not likely to happen, since Kerry declared (again) "no widespread fraud" in early January; and the DNC report in early June simply echoed this.

"No one sat around--there was a huge amount of investigation--and much has come to light over time."
I assume you have read the two Fitrakis articles regarding the "quality" of the DNC report" ("seems like it was phoned-in", etc.)?
"With a limp election theft report, Dems prove why they're unworthy" June 28, 2005
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1342

"The DNC 2004 Election Report: An indictment of incompetence" June 25, 2005
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1335

"I understand that, had they been able to get anyone to come forward with proof, they would have called for an investigation before the vote was certified in January." How "noble", who would NOT have done it (Dems) under these circumstances? And, it’s easy to claim it (take credit) now, since that didn’t happen, right?

"I also understand that John Kerry has supported the investigation of all legitimate concerns about the 2004 elections. He knows what happened."
So "how" has he supported all this? Mostly "lip service"? And, if he "knows what happened", he MUST act - period.

“There were, apparently, three lawsuits in Ohio. The one that PDA is asking people to complain about is the first--the Badnarik-Green lawsuit. It is not a strong case. Lawyers have advised that this one is not winnable.”
This literally reeks of political spin. Because of the current political climate, the chances of winning ANY lawsuit regarding this subject is tenuous, at best. I could speculate why he is currently trying to distance himself from this lawsuit - but I will not. What I WILL say is that the lack of “win-ability” is NOT a valid excuse to abandon this lawsuit; and no amount of spinning by his “camp” will ever change that.

“There are TWO MORE LAWSUITS and THEY are going forward. The second and third lawsuits are, according to my sources, based more on the civil rights issues and Kerry-Edwards are indeed part of these suits.”
This is NOT surprising at all. The obvious “party line” now is to steer away from election fraud (Hmm… I wonder why); and embrace voter disenfranchisement (civil rights, etc.). After-all, wasn’t that the basis of the DNC report? This is no coincidence.

“It is also my understanding that more evidence has come out, and perhaps, some testimonials from observers within the state, with evidence. Ohio is not over. And John Kerry has not stopped fighting.”
Well… that’s what we keep hearing, as the months go by; but this “talk” just hasn’t matched the reality of the situation with action, has it?

“He never has and he won't. He is a quiet warrior, but he is a warrior.

You can take that to the bank—“
You will be hard-pressed to find ANY serious non-affiliated investigator/researcher who feels positively about Kerry’s over-all involvement - from the time he conceded so quickly - up to his present plan to withdraw from the lawsuit (if you know of any, please let me know). His remnants of support on this issue seem to be limited to those who formed an as-yet indefatigable (and unrequited) emotional bond/loyalty during his candidacy (and possibly those with an “interest”). This is not really about John Kerry anymore; it's about free and fair elections, and the future of our democracy

Frankly, his quick concession put us in a “credibility-hole” that we have been trying to dig out of ever since. This continues to keep, even the possibility that Bush may NOT have won the election, from being accepted by many who otherwise would. For example, I was talking to a very sharp college professor (multiple published books) at a Sheehan candle vigil on Wednesday. He’s very progressive, and was quite sympathetic. But, he finally asked the question I (and so many others) have heard so often since November 2nd: “If the election was stolen, why did Kerry concede so quickly?” I have researched this issue extensively, and I do give credible possible answers; but, again, repeatedly starting in this hole so often is definitely NOT advantageous.

So now, if he withdraws his name from the lawsuit, it will only magnify this apparent lack of support of the possibility that Bush did NOT win. So, all of us who believe the election was probably stolen (and want it changed for future elections), should not only send emails, make phone calls, send faxes, sign any petitions, etc.; but also encourage everyone we know to do the same.

Here's a link to Will Pitts thread where you can read all the details about this issue; and tell Kerry to "stay the course". (Gee, I never thought I'd be using THAT expression. ;) )
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x389634

[ray of light]

78. He still involved in the two winnable cases

and if the point is to MAKE peoples' vote count and get election reform then that is important.

Read the rest of the thread to see other's comments. You will see it's not just the "convenience" you implied.

ALSO, the Dem's own report and DEAN refused to embrase the widespread fraud.

Regarding finding any widespread fraud, it's not sufficient in a court of law to say, "I was robbed!" YOU HAVE TO HAVE EVIDENCE that a specific person or group was DIRECTLY involved in it and HOW they did it.

You know..like FINGERPRINTS or NAMES.

And Fritakis himself doesn't have that OR he'd be able to give that info to kerry and the DNC and then they'd have the proof required under law.

[bilgewaterbill]

62. Rumors of something that may be about to happen! When is Kerry

going to do something concrete? Come out on the record, dammit! I'm sick of this pussyfooting around for fear of looking extremist. Damn! Why doesn't he just come out and call a fraud a fraud?

[ray of light]

68. simple...because it takes underground work

to dig up worms from underground. And a lot of noice scares them away.

[bilgewaterbill]

73. Criminy! How long does it take to dig up a worm?

Put up or shut up! This behind-the-scenes, digging for worms shit is for the birds. Shine the light of truth and shout it from the mountain tops!

[ray of light]

82. really?

I suggest you go do an investigation yourself into how long it takes businesses to find white colar crime or how long it takes banks to find embezzlers.

You'll notice when you actually LOOK that once people deal with criminals that criminals DON'T LEAVE A BREADCRUMB TRAIL. AND sometimes the required evidence takes more than 6 months and sometime as many as 30 years.

[earth mom]

96. Time's a wastin', Rome is burning!

I believed in Kerry for months and you know what? I'm done.

What's he doing all this time? Building an "airtight" case?

Okay. So...

Compare that to what Conyers is doing!

BIG BIG BIG DIFFERENCE.

IMO, If Kerry doesn't bust a move VERY soon, it will be WAAAAAAYYYYYY too late.

[LittleClarkie]

101. It sounds like you're reading into this

something that's supposed to break like some big dramatic moment.

I don't think "something is about to happen" and I don't think that has been promised.

There are things already being done that may or may not bear fruit. It sucks and it's boring, but there you have it. Life in the real world. No big dog and pony show, just ongoing lawsuits that aren't sexy enough to make the news. Such is our wonkish former candidate.

If someone will come forward, then perhaps we will get our dramatic moment. But I wouldn't hold my breath. And personally, I'm not blaming Kerry for not producing something I don't think he promised in the first place.

It's nice to know he hasn't dropped this and is working angles he thinks he can win as opposed to tilting windmills.

[wisteria]

74. Thank you for the updates! I Knew Kerry wouldn't just give up

knowing how important this issue is to us.

[Time for change]

75. I want to believe this and I tend to believe this -- HOWEVER

Though I am not a lawyer, I cannot understand how there can be anything wrong with demanding a recount of the Ohio vote. There is a mountain of evidence for massive fraud in Ohio. Nobody can honestly say that they know that Kerry did not win Ohio until there is a full and fair recount there (if not the popular vote).

All the "civil rights" in the world will not give us fair elections as long as the opposition counts our votes and we are not allowed to investigate what happened when it appears that they counted incorrectly.

[ray of light]

79. Actually,

Civil Rights Violations (prior to Bush appointing wierd Supremists) have for the past 40 years been one of the most tightly held ideologies in their judgements. AND if wrong doing is found in a court of law, and upheld by the appelate and supremes, then it is the MOST effective way to get election reforms.

BECAUSE it goes directly against the constitution--no questions asked.

BUT if Roberts has a poor record for Civil Rights then that could help sway the Supremes against their longstanding record of standing up for Civil Rights. That's why moderates in the Supremes is so very important.

[Time for change]

85. No argument there

I'm just saying that "civil rights" alone aren't enough.

Let's say that there is no more voter disenfranchisement in this country from now until eternity. Adequate numbers of voting machines, no long lines, and all sorts of other good stuff to make it look like everything is just fine.

But the Republicans still get to count the votes with their voting machines that use secret software that we have no access to, and even when evidence of severe problems appear we don't get to recount the votes by hand. I'm just saying that if "civil rights" doesn't address this sort of problem then we need something more than civil rights, otherwise we have no democracy.

And more to the original point, I feel that under these circumstances, recounting the Ohio votes is so important and so basic to an assurance that we had a fair election (and I'm almost convinced that we didn't) that I can't understand a decision by one of our Party leaders to give up that fight.

[ray of light]

86. yeh, but think of it this way,

a fraudulent recount was infact done and the judges in Ohio are everybit as corrupt as Blackwell. So had kerry been sitting there in the white house right now, people would be sitting on their laurels and we would not have uncovered the extent of their corruption. This in the end may come to help us in 06. Furthermore, with Kerry in the white house, the corrupt republican congress would have kept the stonewall and blamed kerry. This way, we can turn the tide and Prove to people the level of corruptness and their unwillingness to protect the people.

BUT because the media is corrupt, we must BE THE MEDIA wherever we go. (I post signs everywhere. I met one person at the TBA who told every soliciter who called how corrupt the regime is--he does still set appointments with them, but then tells those people too.) We have to post posters and place information on car windows.

[Nightwing]

77. Would like to think something will come of this

But I just don't see it. We're too far removed from the election now and I feel that Kerry/Edwards should have struck much sooner. I worked hard for John Kerry in Ohio and have never been convinced that my vote was ever counted.

[ray of light]

81. I hope this helps.

Civil Rights Violations (prior to Bush appointing wierd Supremists) have for the past 40 years been one of the most tightly held ideologies in their judgements. AND if wrong doing is found in a court of law, and upheld by the appelate and supremes, then it is the MOST effective way to get election reforms.

BECAUSE it goes directly against the constitution--no questions asked.

BUT if Roberts has a poor record for Civil Rights then that could help sway the Supremes against their longstanding record of standing up for Civil Rights. That's why moderates in the Supremes is so very important.

IF this courtcase wins then the Republicans ARE OBLIGATED under the constitution to offer REAL REFORM and they will be punished if they do not cooperate.

[wiley]

87. All I Can Say

is that Democrats will never be seen as anything but whimps and losers until they demand specific conditions exist before a vote is taken - someone standing in line for three hours is not acceptable, for example - and then monitor the process way before it starts. When someone backs down over a fight over the legitimacy of the voting process and results, they have lost not just that election, but several future elections. Where is the Democrats scream from hell about Diebold. Banks and credit card processing companies get half a million accounts hacked on a regular basis and we're afraid to demand that Diebold NOT be involved in the vote? Get this: Repukes do NOT believe that a democracy is better when everyone gets to vote. They only want certain people's votes to be counted, if they can't somehow disempower them from voting through either psychological or bureaucratic methods.

Does anyone really think that with the Velvet Hammer and all those other lawyers and thugs involved in the 2000 election, that if Bush had the need to win the state of Florida by challenging the validity of the votes of some servicemen and women whose ballots were marked past the deadline that he wouldn't have?

:rant:

[Imagevision]

89. I agree, Dems must insist on receipted Diebold's or manual count!

no exceptions because we now must stoop to this level in guranteeing that we can at least have a legitimate election!

[IndianaGreen]

88. Bullshit!

Kerry conceded because he lost the popular vote, and with that, the ability to legitimately/politically ask for an immediate recount.

Gore got more votes than Bush in 2000 and not one Democratic Senator, including Mr. Kerry, joined the Congressional Black Caucus in challenging the Florida electors.

If you are not a party to a lawsuit challenging the results of the Ohio elections, you got nothing!

[Nothing Without Hope]

91. self- delete - accidental dupe n/t

[Imagevision]

92. Perhaps there's something to the Skull&Bones thing about the loyalty?

Neither Bush nor Kerry would comment when asked about their memberships in The Skull&Bones boyz club, rumor has it they never turn on one another, and this isn't BS.!!

[Wizard777]

99. Many Bonesmen have reveled the secrets.

Prescott Bush stole the skull of Geronimo. It is in the crypt. I haven't been able to get any details on the dragons head of Marduk that was in the Baghdad Museum that was looted. If it is missing. I would look for it in the crypt. With the new world order and this G.W. It would not surprize me one bit if they had the skull of George Washington in the crypt. The Masons may want to check that. They are head hunters and necromancers. They believe that by possesing the skulls of great leaders and warriors. They themselves will become great leaders and warriors. If Christ had remained dead and his skull were upon this earth. That would be the most desireable skull for them to find. But the dragons head of Marduk is as close as they can come to possesing the skull of a God. Also by this necromantic belief. They would be the rightful leaders and rulers of Assyria which became Bablyon (Babel) and is now Iraq.

The Ishtar(Astarte)Gate was rebuilt in Berlin. The rites once performed in Esiskursiskur of the Temple of Marduk were performed. Then Bush Sr. attemped to rebuild the Tower of Babel at Ft. George Meade. It was named project Stargate. This is an anagram. It is formed of iShTAR Gate. It can also be formed of aSTARte Gate. These are the two Stars needed to form the gate. The unused letters form I HATE. The Tower of Babel is a Metaphor for an ancient form of Black Magic taught to man by the Dravidians (The Dark Ones, The Fallen Angels. The Aryans, The Light Ones are The Angels who were not decieved. It is not a human race) vefore being driven back into hell.

The purpose of the original tower was to use the Chthulu call to open the gates of hell to allow Luciphers armies to invade this world. Once that was accomplished. The next step was to use the Enochian Keys to open the Astral Gate to invade the Paradises or Heavenly Nations to destroy Heaven. God cast down the Tower with the Great Confussion. A deep sleep came over those working on the Tower. When they awoke they were different colors and spoke different languages. They became frustrated in their inability to communicate and soon began to hate each other. They each thought that the other had cursed them with the Black Magic.

George Bush Sr. used a front story for project Star Gate. An Experiment in Psychic Warfare. This was to supposedly to rival psychic attacks being conducted buy the Russian KGB. Uri Andropov the former head of the KGB was supposed to be an empathic assassin. He alegedly used his empathic power to assassinate his way into the position as head of the KGB. He would also use it to defend the KGB. It was said that he would show up in the courtroom where russians were to testify against KGB operatives. Then he would use his empathic power to connect with the witness and then cause them to have a stroke or heart failure.

Project Stargate is declassified information and they call us the "looney left." But then again we now live in a world where Wizards are real and The President is a creature of phantasy. Besides they cannot hide from the All Seeing Eye. His Maji live on.

[LittleClarkie]

102. You FOOL. You have spoken the name that must not be spoken!

Do you not remember that when Chthulu calls, he calls collect?

Oops, me too now. Oh well.

Ah for the days when the great one campaigned for President. Because you shouldn't have to choose between the lesser of two evils.

[Wizard777]

103. LMAO, Never talking I just keep walking studying magic

True I have imparted much informonation here. Yet I have not spoken a single word. Where there is a will there is a way. It's funny how these things work.

[LittleClarkie]

100. Actually, S & B is B & S.

I dispair for thinking people dealing in reality on the Democrat side if we're going to invent conspiracies based on some college club. No info = must be plotting against the world? O-B-K-B.

Considering Kerry went after Bush the first in the BCCI scandal, somehow I don't think his sense of fair play is muddied by what amounted to a glorified frat.

Good God people. Can we deal in what we know as opposed to turning into the Democratic version of the World Weekly News?

[Nothing Without Hope]

93. I believe that if Kerry ONLY concentrates on "civil rights violations,"

rather than seriously and aggressively extending the investigation to electronic fraud and secret voter registration purging, THERE WILL BE NO RETURN TO DEMOCRACY.

Giving out more voting machines, curbing voter intimidation and misinformation, and reporting shorter waiting lines next election will be great PR photo ops for Dems and Rethugs - but they will not make up for election fraud by all the other methods. They are certainly necessary, but they are clearly NOT sufficient.

And re the DNC's and election officials' cozy relationship with the voting machine companies, check out this opening post and my replies to it in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x4408897
Thread title: Diebold hires top Dem for PR blitz (former DNC chair)

Think about all this when you hear the DNC people talking ONLY about "civil rights violations" in election reform, as Kerry appears to be doing. It will not make a damned bit of difference - indeed, it will increase the APPEARANCE of honesty - if the behind the scenes electronic fraud and purging are quietly continued. And they will be unless the DNC dares to confront the voting machine companies, demands voter-verified paper ballots and a transparent process with full auditing, and FIGHTS, dammit!

[radio4progressives]

94. Poppy Cock! If you believe this - I've got some Beach Front Property

to sell you.

At this point in time, with all the facts that have been uncovered by months and months of investigation of hundreds of hard work, and dozens of people - it would be laughable to see the assertion that Kerry "conceded because he lost the popular vote", if it were not so tragically untrue.

Mountains of evidence that has surfaced in the subsequent months of the 2004 elections illustrate that Kerry did not lose the popular vote, surely Kerry should know that tens of thousands of people (if not more)are very very aware of the results of these investigations. Including all those individuals who pressured Barbara Boxer and many others in Congress and the Senate to object to elections certification, which led to the hearings and Senate floor motions to object.

Remember the roses?

Now, it might have been more accurate and politically savvyt for Kerry to have said, that He THOUGHT he lost the popular vote - but to state that he DID lose the popular vote begs the obvious question: how anyone can hold any confidence in Kerry's ability to lead on matters critical to the hearts and minds of the American public, given that he apparently is so insulated from the conscience awareness of the rank and file. It simply does not make sense to continue to feed into the disslusional fantasy of his candidacy.

Please put an end to this stupid fantasy of a viable candidacy in Kerry - Even though he actually won the last election, he will definetly not win a clean 2008 election . The only way he could possibly win, if the elections are rigged as it was for the Bush Crime Family in 2000 and 2004.

[TayTay]

104. His presumed candidacy woud be valid

He would have supporters, money and motivation. You don't like him but so what. Others do. That's why we have primaries.

I like him. I would like to see him run again. I thought he ran a strong campaign, albeit not a perfect one. I am sending him money, as are others.

I presume that you will do the same with someone you like. Again, that's why we have primaries.

[radio4progressives]

95. self delete duplicate

[Mass]

105. kicked to answer the last PDA letter.