Any other Deanies almost ready to remove their bumper stickers?

[populistmom]

Dean first appealed to me a year ago because he had gonads and he fought like hell. I've seen too many Democrats in recent years "play nice" and it was a nice change, but now they all (except Joe perhaps) seem willing to play hard ball with W and take him on. I'm afraid too that Dean is getting too hammered in the media and also may not have what it takes to clean up the foreign policy mess were in.

I haven't decided for sure yet regarding my bumper sticker dilemma, but I may rethink it after tomorrow.

Kerry? Dean? Kerry? Dean? Kerry? Dean? Kerry?

[WatchWhatISay]

1. Why oh why?

Do Democrats continue to let non-Democrats tell us who we ought to choose?

[populistmom]

24. If that were completely true

We'd all probably be Kucinich supporters. I'm trying not to be swayed (I actually watch little corporate media), but I know what's happening. I know, though, whomever is the front runner will be hammered full force.

[Loren645]

40. Well guess what Watch... the media whores will hammer anyone that's

a true opposition candidate and offers the criticism chimpy
deserves. So you can't have it both ways.

[Edge]

2. How about a nice Edwards bumper sticker?

:hi:

[Kipepeo]

3. Please no

My Dean sticker won't come down until Dean comes down, which would be never. But really, how can I ask a candidate to support me and fight for me to the end, if I won't do this same?

This thing isn't over by a long shot.

[trogdor]

69. I agree 110%

Why in God's name should we let a bunch of armchair quarterbacks tell us what who to support? Do we need their permission to support candidate X forchrissakes? The sticker stays as long as Dean does. Period.

OTOH, while we're talking about the general subject of second choices, if it seems likely that your #5 choice is gaining while your #1 choice is sinking fast, it might be prudent to consider supporting your #2 choice on primary day if this idea of your #5 winning the nomination doesn't appeal to you.

Those of us who live in Super Tuesday states have the luxury of waiting to see how the Feb 3rd primaries go before deciding to fall back on #2.

[ReynoldsWrap]

4. I'm a Clarkie...

But I think you're best off standing behind Dean. The candidates willing suddenly to play hardball probably won't stay that way for long. Right now they can do it because the rest of the candidates are. Once they're in the race on their own, whats the gaurantee they won't back down and let the Rove machine steamroll them. Stick with Dean. I'm not a big supporter of him, but he is a good man, and a strong candidate. Once he stands with the full force of the unified Democratic party behind him....Bush is toast...

[WilliamPitt]

5. Tear that sucker off and join the Hammpaign

The time is NOW.

[MidwestMomma]

12. But Hamm is the candidate Bush wants to run against

We can't let the Republicans pick our candidate for us! Stop the Hammetum now!

[populistmom]

21. Hamm 2004?

:shrug:

[MidwestMomma]

28. Hammermania-it's sweeping the country!

Or maybe not...}(

[ryharrin]

36. no, she should feel the Joementum!

He's surging into fifth place! :)

[clarknyc]

6. Absolutely not.

[Kathleen04]

7. Not a Dean supporter..

but stick with your candidate until he's done. I know it's frustrating but don't let the media get the best of you.

[populistmom]

20. It's that fine line

Between knowing we do need an element of the sheeple vote (and being a realist about it) and becoming a sheeple yourself. That's why I'm torn.

[FrenchieCat]

8. What do Dean and Kerry have in common?

One has been railing against the other for the IWR.

I thought people that like Dean liked him for his Movement and his anti-war stance.

One's a insider...one claims to be an outsider.....


I am confused.....

oh, I got it...they are both from New England!

[populistmom]

16. I admire Kerry's track record

EXCEPT for voting in favor of the resolution. I admit, it's a hard one to get past. A huge one really.

[FrenchieCat]

19. Must not be....

You said you admired Dean's courage?....

Did Kerry show courage?

[Paragon]

9. Leave it on - people will think you're NUTS

Nobody's road raging on this crazy motherfucker.

[WilliamPitt]

11. YYYEEEAAAAAARRRHHH *beeeeeeeeeeeep* SMASH! *tinkle tinkle*

:)

[clarknyc]

15. Drinking and driving, Will?

[WilliamPitt]

23. Drinking and driving and posting on DU and spreading the Hamm word

Multi-tasking, baby. Feel the power.

Actually...sober and sleepy and punchy and ready for it to be Wednesday.

[populistmom]

13. They already think I'm nuts!

:crazy:

[hellhathnofury]

10. Hamm!

No, don't take it off.

[overground1]

33. I second that

I don't have a Hamm sticker yet so I'm just taping on lunchmeats for now.

[MidwestMomma]

34. Everytime I think I'm tired of the Hamm, somebody else cracks me up!

LOL!

[Jerseycoa]

14. What I don't understand

is why people post these threads the night before a primary when everybody is nervous. It's unkind.

[populistmom]

17. I've evil

Actually, maybe it will die a quick death and influence no one.

[Kipepeo]

18. I agree

unkind

[Anwen]

22. No way!

I know it's tough right now and much of the media wants us to think that we should be taking down our bumper stickers already.

A week ago they were telling us that Dean was toast. Done. Damaged. But look at his comeback. He is an extremely strong candidate and deserves our support.

Please don't give up. :)

[corporatewhore]

25. even though i dont like dean Leave it on and dont let any of the news

heads choose your cannidate

[Jim Sagle]

26. Dean to the end. Period.

[JVS]

27. Kerry plays nice

[Melinda]

29. Nope, never, not gonna happen. I'm PROUD of Dr. Dean!!!

And I may even end up in court over the lawn signs, but I'm ready! Bring it on!!!!!!

[populistmom]

30. Okay, I needed a reminder

Yes, anyone but Bush, but not just yet. Maybe it's just nerves here. The sticker's staying on as long as possible, hopefully until November. Sorry to cause any upset or disarray.

(Must retreat to safe space :scared: )

[Anwen]

32. It's okay.

Don't feel bad :) My nerves are frazzled right now and I probably won't be getting much sleep tonight... I'll be glad when tomorrow is over, no matter what the outcome!!!

[wtmusic]

31. Mine are staying on

Yeah, so he's not perfect. Everyone else is less perfect. Hang in there, PM! :D

[ArtieBoy]

35. Everyone makes a great point

that Dean created the heat and keeps the heat on the other candidates. Dean gets a little down in the polls, what does John Edwards do? Goes on Bill O'Reilly and says he thinks the Iraq war was a good idea and is going well! (According to what I read here.) WTF? Dean is dead center in the bullseye and he's withstanding the heat. Can't we?

[quaker bill]

37. Nope, with Dean regardless

I have never considered Kerry a viable candidate in the GE. There is just not sufficient distance between him and Bush* on the war or the patriot act.

If it ends up Kerry-Bush, I will vote anti-Bush. Not before.

[dkf]

38. Dean is more than a fighting spirit he also has a tremendously heart.

The more I listen to him, the more I realize that this is the President I've been waiting for my entire life.

I am not going to give up on him, ever. And no matter where he lands up, he will have my support because I believe with all my heart in his basic decency and goodness. What can I say...I just love the guy.

[Abigail147]

83. Me too!!!!

And I ain't no wide-eyed, naive college kid which the media tells us is the mainstay of Howard Dean's constituency.

[Virgil]

39. Feel the media, be the media, bash the media

I hope one thing people do is turn to the Internet. The clowns on the tube are calling the Kentucky Derby. I want to hear more broad issues and I would like to hear Dean speak about all of this media consolidation that has 5 companies dictate what is news.

I see a lot more pundits talking than I do candidates. That is what is sad. I am for Kucinich myself with Dean second. But I sure would not to have to vote for a Washington insider that could have spoken up by now on how to correct things that they did not correct while in the Senate.

You probably feel the way you do from watching tv. Dean is still the same person he was when you first supported him and so are all the other candidates. The only thing that has changed is you. If you cannot support DK, then say "Deam all the way." "DK all the way" sounds better though.

[NashVegas]

41. HAHAHAHA.

No.

[JNelson6563]

42. I'm not a fair-weather kinda girl

sorry, no sale here.

Something you seem to overlook in your post declaring all the Dems are now seemingly willing to "take it to Bush", they were reluctant until it worked positively for Dean. Once he cut the path, they followed. *yawn* I find such cautious political manuevering to be most UNinspiring.

When I make a committment it is based on a lot of thought and consideration. It doesn't change with the wind.

Julie-who doesn't take/make important decisions lightly and wonders about those who do

[NoPasaran]

43. No way

I'm with Dean all the way. We need to stay in this race and come to the convention with a huge bloc of delegates. That's the only way we'll ever get the party to stand up for us ordinary folks and stop being a doormat for Bushco.

[mmonk]

44. People who vote with the president on foreign policy issues

won't be as effective against him with the way the repubs will run him.

[Cheswick2.0]

45. No

no way

[Skidmore]

46. I had a bit of doubt over the weekend, but I've been watching

him speak and his interviews. You know, I want this guy to win BECAUSE he demonstrates a willingness to listen to people and to give voice to what people really think. I like it that he's not scripted and blow-dried. I like his sincerity and I like it that he's gotten his hands dirty in the real world--that he's not been afraid to touch other people at the times in their lives when they are the most vulnerable. What is more personal and humbling that to be with someone who is in pain or at a time when circumstances require that they put aside their public face. This is a man who understands the sufferings of others. This culture needs to heal and perhaps it is time for someone like Howard. He has my support.

[Mass_Liberal]

47. HELL NO!

Stick with Dean. He's got passion, he speaks like he is a MAN, not a soulless piece of granite! He's got good experience, and can take back the whitehouse.



Please, don't wuss out on Howard, he NEEDS your support.

[jsw_81]

48. I removed mine last week

Howard Dean's Iowa "speech" was outrageous and not at all presidential. Sorry guys, but I just don't think that Dean is ready for prime time. And judging by the latest polls, most Democrats seem to agree with me. We want a candidate who can beat Bush in November, and that candidate is John Kerry.

[joshcryer]

50. LOL

Hahaha

[CWebster]

51. Since when does politician rallying a crowd of supporters

become not presidential? How can people possibly, without even studying the event, gobble up all this spin? If they can bring down Dean on this, what makes you think they won't rip Kerry to shreds on something like his motorcycle antics or his hockey game where he is permitted to make the goals? How can you not see it for what it is? How can anything be more unpresidential than ruining our standing in the world and taking the nation to war on a manufactured lie and then strutting around on an aircraft carrier? And the opposition candidate who voted to support it?

These are the kind of soundbites--"unelectible, unpresidential" that can be launched against any candidate, and there doesn't have to be any foundation to the accusation--all that matters is that the perception, the slur, sticks. It is EXACTLY the kind of tactics used by the Right, where they can be assured of mindless complicity, broadcasted by the corporate media into every misled ear.

[jsw_81]

53. Dean wasn't just rallying a crowd of supporters

He was yelling, screaming, and almost frothing at the mouth. You just don't do that kind of stuff if you're serious about being elected President of the United States. Period.

[JNelson6563]

55. You parrot that perfectly!

Have you considered network/cable news? You've got it donw!

Julie

[jsw_81]

57. I'm not "parroting" anything

I saw it happen with my own eyes. If Dean should win the nomination and have another little outburst before November, Bush could be looking at 450+ electoral votes and a solid GOP Congress. Do you really want to take that risk? I sure don't.

[CWebster]

58. As if Kerry is immune from any attack

The difference being, Kerry won't have my support when it is his time to weather the storm, while people who base their opinion on the manufactured consensus of the moment will just shift their allegiance again. A contender must have a base of support that is not subject to the caprices of such cheap pitches.

[jsw_81]

64. I never said that Kerry is immune from attack

I just think that he'll be a much stronger general election candidate against Bush, and I'm absolutely certain that he won't make any bizarre, red-faced outbursts on live television.

But it's more than just the "speech" that bothers me about Dean. Consider the following:

- Dean, who has apparently never heard of Tom Eagleton, told an interviewer for a national magazine that he underwent psychological counseling for anxiety attacks in the 1980's and had a panic attack when he learned that he would be Vermont's new governor. How would Dean react if he became president? And what if there should be another 9/11? How would he handle that kind of a stressful situation? John Kerry, on the other hand, has literally been under fire, and he didn't have any kind of anxiety attack, and didn't need counseling.

- Dean foolishly told reporters that he would make more references to God and religion in his speeches, but "only in the South." Dean apparently assumed that Southern conservatives would rally to his side if he just mentioned Jesus once or twice.

- Dean made a joke about his son's arrest for burglary at a country club, telling reporters that he would "break into the country club of Democratic insiders."

- Dean kept his wife Judy off the campaign trail until the very last minute, and didn't even mention her name until very recently. She didn't seem interested in her husband's presidential campaign until he started to plummet in the polls and was so obscure that reporters didn't even know what to call her (Dr. Dean? Mrs. Dean? Mrs. Steinberg?).

- Dean started yelling at a heckler during an Iowa town meeting. While it's understandable that Dean would be upset, he didn't look or sound at all presidential. Most recent presidents just ignored hecklers. When hecklers interrupted another Dean event, the governor didn't yell, but instead chose to start singing the national anthem. Unbelievably, he actually got a few of the lyrics wrong.

- Dean said that we need an honest and open government. He then decided to have his own gubernatorial records sealed in a vault for an unprecedented ten years, and didn't see why anyone would find that strange.

Individually, these mistakes and gaffes aren't all that bad, but when you see how many of them he has made, and how frequent he has made them, it becomes rather obvious that Governor Dean just isn't ready for prime time. He may have been able to get away with these kinds of mistakes in a small, rural state like Vermont that has no media to speak of, but he won't be able to get away with it while running a national campaign. I really shudder to think about what might happen if Dean should win our nomination; it could be 1972 all over again.

[CWebster]

67. Yeah? Check it out

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0123-02.htm

and they haven't even started to mine the wealth Kerry has to ffer.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kstewart33]

61. I agree with jsw

Why did that screech have such staying power? Because it visually crystallized all the doubts that people have had about Dean for months. You could actually look at the videotape and say, 'yes, that's it! That's the problem with him!'

That's why it's had staying power.

I want us to protect the US Senate. Bush will be very hard to beat with any candidate. So who is best to lose with? I'd say Kerry. If Dean runs, we likely would lose many seats, and if the Repubs get to 60 seats in the Senate, we're done, over with, kaput.

[CWebster]

63. rubbish

Anything about anyone can be spun to create a negative. The fact that they had to manufacture an illusion to create one for Dean means they had flimsy ammo to begin with, meanwhile they manufacture the illusion that Bush is presidential?

[dansolo]

73. Just like the Wellstone memorial

Did you believe all of the crap that the media claimed about what happened with the Wellstone memorial as well?

[Melinda]

66. No, what you saw was filtered though corporate media whore eyes

If you really care to see "it happen", watch what the 3500 Dean supporters actually in the Iowa audience saw and "heard", and not what those who control the message and the airwaves want you to hear:

http://www.idiomstudio.com/

[CWebster]

56. You want to tell me why not?

This is little more than spin to make Kerry's wooden, boring monotonous rhetoric, delivered in a pretentious pontificating style seem more appropriately "presidential" when he is little more than a pompous ass, posturing as more credible with elitist airs. Personally, I can't stand when his tongue flicks out between pompous pronouncements. It repels me.

[progressivebydesign]

79. Any proof you ever had a Dean bumper sticker?

I doubt anyone committed enough to Dean to put a sticker on their car would refer to him as "frothing at the mouth". Any reasonable person can see that he wasn't angry, wasn't upset, wasn't losing his mind. If you see the video in which the full audio is used, you'll hear that 1) the crowd of 3,500 supporters were making a ton of noise and he had to yell to be heard (which he barely was). 2) He was losing his voice halfway thru (he had a bad cold) 3) He was smiling and laughing.

I just find it funny that you would have ripped your Dean sticker off.. and in a matter of days, put a giant Kerry sticker image on your signature line. Wow.. that was fast..

[HuckleB]

75. Tell me.

Why is being a real human being "not presidential." And tell me how Kerry's push polling and ugly flyers are in any way "presidential."

I doubt you were ever in the Dean camp. It simply doesn't make sense for anyone to leave Dean for the nastiness surrounding the Kerry campaign.

[TLM]

81. Yeah we need bland and boring and dull timid dems...

you know, so we can lose the election respectably.


And really Kerry's snow ball fight yesterday really showed me how violent he really is, very unpresidential.

[CWebster]

49. it is the same old pathetic Kerry as its always been.

What advantages does he have to oppose Bush? He supported him on every major issue that could now be used against him. Kerry brags about how he called out Oliver North...Doesn't Oliver North have his own TV show? Kerry has all the stereotypical disadvantages of a North-Eastern "limousine liberal" as well as being an unattractive, unappealing, uncharismatic drone. Even if Kerry gains uninformed mainstream voters who respond to media blizes and spin about who is electible or presidential, he will loose the progressive base who knows the score.

Even if Kerry wins, we lose.

[jsw_81]

65. "Even if Kerry wins, we lose"

Unbelievable. Have you been asleep for the last three years?

[TLM]

82. WOuld that be the last three years Kerry spent

voting for IWR, the no child left behind act, the patriot act, 350 billion in tax cuts...


Too bad Kerry doesn't attack Bush with the same energy he has spent attacking Dems.

[Polemonium]

52. If you believe the hype the rich good old boys who

rule this country from golf courses and over stiff drinks, they will continue to rule this country. Do you want your country back or don't you. It's that simple. The rest is fear mongering done to keep us quiet and in our holes.

[zulchzulu]

54. I have a Bradley 2000 bumpsticker I could send you to add on

I don't have any Nader merch. :->

[NNN0LHI]

59. I still have Clinton/Gore bumper stickers on my car. Old car I guess?

Just kidding.

Don

[THUNDER HANDS]

62. I'll buy you a Kerry bumpersticker

It'll fit nicely right over the Dean one. Nobody will notice. :D

[diamondsoul]

68. (whispering)

Kerry? Dean? (ds whispers Kucinich!), Kerry? Dean? (Kucinich!), Kerry? Dean? (KUCINICH!)

Sorry, couldn't resist.;-) Hope your decision doesn't drive you totally buggy.

[frustrated_lefty]

70. Dean: "My first act as president

will be to call Bill Clinton and ask him to broker a peace in the Middle East."

I'm not remotely concerned about his lack of experience in foreign policy.

If Kerry gets the nod, more power to him and he'll get my vote. But it won't be a vote for Kerry, it will be a vote for ABB. And that, when all is said and done, is good enough.

[David__77]

71. I think you should keep it.

This means you support a progressive agenda. It's a message of defiance to the right. Don't contribute to the backlash.

[msanger]

72. I'm pulling mine off tonight

and putting on "Dean/Gore in 2004."

What the heck, it actually rhymes.

As my football coach used to say "winners never quit, and quitters never win."

[HuckleB]

74. No.

And I certainly wouldn't replace it with a Kerry sticker. Perhaps Clark or Edwards, in time. However, Kerry's liabilities come GE time far outweight any imagined ones in Dean.

[progressivebydesign]

76. Kerry or Dean? Like asking ham sandwich or buy a new car?

I mean.. Kerry and Dean are not interchangable. They have totally different messages, regardless of how many lines and themes are lifted from Dean's speeches. If you're ready to pull your bumper sticker off and support someone else because the media is attacking Dean.. then what will you do when the media attacks Kerry? Pull that sticker off and support Bush?

Trying to choose someone in the primaries based upon who the media beats up on, is foolhardy. They'll all be beat up by the media. Frankly, I think Dean showed his mettle by surging back in the polls after the media drubbing he's taken for the past 2 or 3 weeks.. long before his Iowa speech was exploited.

Clinton had no foreign policy experience. He did a fine damn job of it.

Vote with your heart in the primaries. Don't try to second guess yourself.. or try to predict who will have a better time of it with the media... We're not pundits, and we shouldn't try to be. Vote for the MESSAGE that resonates with you the most.

[LuminousX]

77. Never. I may be a Dean Supporter 4 Kerry, but Kerry or whoever

will have to earn my vote.

[edzontar]

78. Um, NO!!!! And is this the best time to even ask this?

It is a nerve-wracking day for many of us here----why not leave well enough alone?

[Abigail147]

84. It ain't over till it's over.

And we have a long, long way to go.

[incapsulated]

80. *sigh*

Even if you are seriously thinking about leaving Dean, can't you wait until after the vote in NH to post about it? What if he wins? It's a whole new day. Everyone needs encouragment and support right now, it's voting day and there is a lot at stake.

[Upfront]

85. Let Me Be Clear.

Never!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CWebster]

86. better yet

If it comes to it you could add :Don't blame me I voted for Dean, to it.