Why is not solar and wind power being developed for base load?

[usregimechange]

My congressman (R) sent me this cheesey questionare saying that, "Sources like wind ans solar will be developed but not for base load." Than he asks which base load source would you favor? Nuclear, coal or natural gas

Most commonly referred to as baseload demand, this is the minimum amount of power that a utility or distribution company must make available to its customers, or the amount of power required to meet minimum demands based on reasonable expectations of customer requirements. Baseload values typically vary from hour to hour in most commercial and industrial areas.
http://www.energyvortex.com/energydictionary/baseload__base_load__baseload_demand.html

My question is why is wind and solar energy not being developed for base load electric needs? And what makes him think it is or should not?

[whistle]

1. That would hurt big oil and other fossil fuel providers

[Old and In the Way]

2. I don't get it either.

Why not develop a totally decentralized energy grid that allows unused power to flow back into the grid? Wouldn't that be in our national security interests, rather than have centralized power generation or long supply lines, like oil? Wouldn't such a vision actually develop new jobs and technology?

But we know that won't happen as long as we have a federal government in the pockets of Big Oil and Big War.

[Canuckistanian]

3. Not practical

For solar, hundreds of acres of expensive solar panels would be needed for an average medium-sized city.

And the same for wind power. You'd need an Altamont Pass sized intallation for a city and even then, you'd need backup for windless days and nights.

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. Ah, but if enough buildings were equipped with them it would at

least lighten the load. (And here in Maine solar homes have to be grid-tied anyway.)

[Canuckistanian]

15. Ah, now that's another story

I was conjecturing about replacing power plants only, at our current rate of consumption.

[GreenPartyVoter]

20. Another story, indeed. Just wish I could actually do that. But I can't

afford to get out of this trailer and into an energy efficient eco-friendly home. :(

[Canuckistanian]

22. Trailers are energy efficient...

Just as long as you don't have A/C blaring all day.

If all North Americans lived in trailers, this wouldn't be an issue....

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. Not all trailers are energy efficient. This one can get up

to 100 degrees when it's only 85 outside. Running a half dozen fans to get cooler air in and hot air out barely helps. And in winter, because the skirting isn't insulated and falls off and the walls and windows are very thin, it gets very cold.

So trailers are only energy efficient if you can afford to improve them. Banking and shrinkwrap helps somewhat but thicker walls would be even better.

[ken_g]

7. Interesting article

Here's an article that makes you think it is possible though if enough research were funded. It's called the sunflower and it looks very intriguing.

<http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.07/solar.html>

[skids]

11. Watch this company.

They are well funded, at the vanguard of solar energy, and dead serious about making cost-conscious mass produced products. (CPV is the future of direct solar electric -- they use much less silicone. Practically none, by comparison.)

As to why not base load -- OP should tell their congresscritter they'd like to see solar-thermal/geothermal as the baseline provider. Those are reliable supply sources. E.g. stuff like this:

http://engnet.anu.edu.au/DEpeople/Keith.Lovegrove/STG/thermochem.html

As to the reasons why we haven't "gotten there" yet -- nuclear power took 30 years of heavy government subsidy to "get there." Solar is right on the crux -- there have been several major recent breakthroughs -- but the industry took a groin hit when energy got so cheap that noone cared.

The product manufacturers and consumers are to blame as well. For example, most appliances that use motors use an inefficient "shaded pole squirrel cage" design and in no way have they been optimized for power efficiency. Do NOT assume that because something is newer that it is more efficient -- the manufacturer's #1 priority is that it is cheap to build -- how much you pay in electricity to operate it they could not care less. If it isn't promoted as an energy saving product, or designed as a portable unit that has to run off batteries, you can guarantee it wastes energy.

Another example -- see if you can find a refrigerator that makes use of cold outside air or vents hot air outside during the summer. Sure not all of us have a fridge that is near a window or outside wall. But you'll be astounded at the limited selection, and grossly inflated prices for a couple simple air tubes and motor/microcontrollers.

It's enough to drive one mad.

By encouraging consumption of products that are less efficient but oh so cheap at WalMart we have driven up power demand to the point where it is a medium size investment to cover your own needs with renewable installations. (It would also be nice if you could buy a DC power version of a product without spending two to three times the cost of the original product or buying an inverter. Though inverters are cheaper these days at least.)

[MadHound]

8. Actually you wouldn't need that much friend

Don't buy into that oily spin. According to a 1991 DOE study on US energy resources, there is enough harvestable wind energy in three states, North and South Dakota along with Texas, to supply all US energy needs through the year 2030. And that's not counting the technological leaps that have been made in wind power during the past fourteen years.

So let's see, spread that amount over all fifty states, and gee, it won't be that crowded now will it? And since we have an interconnected nationwide electrical grid, when the wind in Texas isn't strong enough to provide power, we can shoot the power in from Missouri and Kansas. Lovely how a decentralized power source works, isn't it?

[Canuckistanian]

18. I'd like to know the actual numbers

And did that study project capacity increases or was it just the current consumption in 1991?

I'm not doubting that it can be done. It's just that a major project like that (probably equal to the Rural Electrification project in the '30s) will require major capital and political expense (Repubs would fight it all the way, natch).

[sendero]

19. Not to mention..

..... huge, huge, I mean hugh banks of batteries.

Folks, I'm as much a conservationist as anyone here and I will tell you flat out - when the bigwigs tell you that solar/wind is not practical for "base load" generation they are 100% correct.

Maybe someday, but not now. There are some promising new technologies for solar panels themselves, but the batteries are still in the stone age.

To take the average 1500 sq ft house and retrofit it with a pure solar system would cost you at least $35,000 - now scale that up to doing a city. It just is not going to happen. And even then - folks get carried away with the "renewable" aspect as though solar has no ongoing costs. Wrong. Batteries, easily 30% of the cost of the system, will only last 8-10 years under the BEST of circumstances.

Please, if you are interested in solar power there is plenty of info on the web. You don't just slap up a few panels and go off the grid, that is a pipe dream.

[GreenPartyVoter]

4. I want to know why entire towns are not putting up solar panels

and wind turbines? We need to make it possible for everyday people to have these items. If enough of them do, then they will at least provide for the base load in their area. (We have done a little about this in Maine, but I feel it's not enough since any eexcess energy you produce goes out into the grid. At best you get credits for low-energy outpu months, but you are not reimbursed for overages, yet you are charged for taking power from the grid beyond what you produced.)

http://solarhouse.com/

[skids]

12. They are.

...You just don't live in the right town :-)

http://www.hullwind.org/

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. I guess I'm not. *g* It would be a hard sell here, living in an historic

area. But at least the folks outside of the area coul do it.

[jobycom]

6. Just guessing, but maybe because it's not an "on-demand" source

Wind and sun are variable sources, so with the current grid system, power companies couldn't gaurantee a base load. Thus it's used to supplement base. I'm guessing.

I like Old and In the Way's vision, though. That would require imagination and vision, and we don't have enough politicians with that. Damn I wish Gore was president.

[cosmicdot]

14. I wish Al was President, too

it's the vision and leaderhip we're needing

We need a leader who will make things happen; and, I'm willing to give Al Gore the opportunity stolen from him in 2000. I suspect Al would be rolling out a Tennessee Valley Authority-type nationwide energy/environmental initiative as one of many policies to strengthen our 21st century infrastructure.

AFAIC, everyone else can park their personal ambitions with their panderings, posturing, and pseudo-leadership ...

We need a leader.



~snip~

"But let me say it plainly: I will not go along with a huge tax cut for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else and wreck our good economy in the process.

~snip~

"Hands off Medicare and Social Security trust fund money. I'll veto anything that spends it for anything other than Social Security and Medicare

~snip~

"And that's the difference in this election. They're for the powerful. We're for the people.

~snip~


"Big tobacco, big oil, the big polluters, the pharmaceutical companies, the HMOs, sometimes you have to be willing to stand up and say no, so families can have a better life.

"I know one thing about the job of the president: It is the only job in the Constitution that is charged with the responsibility of fighting for all the people, not just the people of one state or one district, not just the wealthy or the powerful, all the people; especially those who need a voice, those who need a champion, those who need to be lifted up, so they are never left behind.

"I say to you tonight, if you entrust me with the presidency, I will fight for you.

"I mean that with all my heart.

"There's one other word that we've heard a lot of in this campaign, and that word is "honor." To me, honor is not just a word, but an obligation. And you have my word: We will honor hard work by raising the minimum wage so that work always pays more than welfare.

"We will honor families by expanding child care and after-school care, and family and medical leave, so working families have the help they need to care for their children, because one of the most important jobs of all is raising our children.

"And we'll support the right of parents to decide that one of them will stay home longer with their babies, if that's what they believe is best for their families.

"We will honor the ideal of equality by standing up for civil rights and defending affirmative action.

"We will honor -- we will honor equal rights, and we will fight for an equal day's pay for an equal day's work.

"And let there be no doubt. I will protect and defend a woman's right to choose. The last thing this country needs is a Supreme Court that overturns Roe v. Wade.

"We will remove all the old barriers so that those who are called disabled can develop all their abilities. And we will also widen the circle of opportunity for all Americans. And we will vigorously enforce all our civil rights laws with the budgets and personnel that are necessary.

"And hear me well: We will pass the Employment Non- Discrimination act.

"And we will honor the memory of Matthew Shepard, and Joseph Ileto, and James Byrd, whose families all joined us this week, by passing a law against hate crimes.

~snip~

"Sometimes in this campaign, when I visit a school and see a hard-working teacher trying to change the world one child at a time, I see the face of my father. And I know that teaching our children well is not just a teacher's job, it's everyone's job, and it has to be our national mission.

"I've shaken hands in diners and coffee shops all across this country. And sometimes when I see a waitress working hard and thanking someone for a tip, I see the face of my mother. And I know, for that waitress carrying trays or a construction worker in the winter cold, I will never agree to raise the retirement age to 70 or threaten the promise of Social Security.

"It's just not fair to them and I won't do it.

"I say to you tonight, we've got to win this election because every hard-working American family deserves to open the door to their dream.

"In our democracy, the future is not something that just happens to us, it's something that we make for ourselves together. So to the young people watching tonight, I say this is your time to make new the life of our world. We need your help to rekindle the spirit of America. Believe in our country. We believe in you.

"And I ask all of you, my fellow citizens, from this city, that marked both the end of America's journey westward and the beginning of the New Frontier, let us set out on a new journey to the best America, a new journey on which we advance not by the turning of wheels, but by the turning of our minds, the reach of our vision, the daring grace of the human spirit. Yes, we have our problems, but the United States of America is the best country ever created and still, as ever, the hope of humankind.

"Yes, we're all imperfect, but as Americans we share in the privilege and challenge of building a more perfect union.

"I know my own imperfections. For example, I know that sometimes people say I'm too serious, that I talk too much substance and policy. Maybe I've done that tonight.

"But the presidency is more than a popularity contest, it's a day-by-day fight for people.

"Sometimes you have to choose to do what's difficult or unpopular. Sometimes you have to be willing to spend your popularity in order to pick the hard right over the easy wrong.

"There are big choices ahead, and our whole future is at stake. And I do have strong beliefs about it.

"If you entrust me with the presidency, I know I won't always be the most exciting politician. But I pledge to you tonight, I will work for you every day, and I will never let you down.

"If we allow ourselves to believe without reservation that we can do what's right and be the better for it, then the best America will be our America.

"In this City of Angels, we can summon the better angels of our nature. Do not rest where we are or retreat, do all we can to make America all it can become."

- Al Gore, 2000 acceptance speech

[usregimechange]

9. here

“Geothermal power plants have a proven track record of performance as baseload facilities, with capacity factors and availabilities often exceeding 95 percent.” David K. Garman, Assistant Secretary, Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy

“The majority of electricity production from biomass is used as base load power in the existing electrical distribution system.” Ibid

“There are now many thousands of wind turbines operating in various parts of the world, with a total capacity of over 45,000 MWe at the end of 2004. This has been the most rapidly-growing means of electricity generation in the last decade and provides a valuable complement to large-scale base-load power stations.” Uranium Information Centre Ltd

“Eventually, up to ten percent of total primary energy in industrialized countries may be supplied by direct solar thermal techniques, and to some extent this will substitute for base-load electrical energy.” Ibid

[jpak]

10. Denmark and Norway developing hydrogen storage systems

to buffer supply and demand mismatches from wind farms.

http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2005/07/28591.php

http://www.bellona.no/en/energy/hydrogen/18283.html

In Denmark, power produced in excess of demand will be used to produce hydrogen using megawatt scale electrolyzers.

In the near term, the hydrogen would be used to to produce electricity and heat at existing natural gas-fired municipal co-generation power plants.

In the longer term, megawatt-scale fuel cells would be used to produce both electricity and domestic heat.

A small-scale photovoltaic-hydrogen system has been operating at Humboldt State University for several years (including 7 years of continuous operation without human intervention).

http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/trinidad.html

So your repug congressman is a little *ahem* uninformed about developments in renewable energy technologies...

[Massacure]

16. Base power refers to something that runs 24/7.

Peak power is usually a power plant that is only turned on during high demand.

Solar and Wind usually aren't peak but they aren't base either.

[LSK]

17. because solar would make your building independent

And then how could they bill you for energy charges? ;)

[GreenPartyVoter]

21. Exactly!

[CabalPowered]

23. Why isn't Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion being developed?

http://www.nrel.gov/otec/

*edit sp

[skids]

25. The tide/wave mills are good.

...but pumping heat into the cold water under the ocean is not very environmentally friendly. Really, I don't know what people were thinking there...