John Conyers to Kerry/Edwards: "continue to be involved"

[paineinthearse]

http://www.conyersblog.us/

Fighting for Every Voter

A few more words about an issue that is of the utmost importance to me.

As political candidates, we spend considerable time and effort every election cycle fighting for votes. After the election, whether won or lost, many candidates leave the irregularities of the election behind. But we owe the voters more than that. When voters are disenfrachised, we owe it to them to seek justice and expose the truth. That is why I have been so proud of the Kerry-Edwards campaign's ongoing involvement in the investigation and litigation of what went wrong in Ohio. I wroteto the candidates recently to ask that they continue to be involved in this important endeavor.

This is not about the past. It is about figuring out what went wrong and why -- and then getting the next election right, not for the Democratic Party, but for all of the voters.


Blogged by JC on 08.22.05 @ 04:19 PM ET

[TayTay]

1. This is nice, but what does it mean?

We had a controversy recently that said that the K/E campaign was withdrawing from the Cobb sponsored lawsuit in Ohio. Some said that there were three lawsuits and that the weakest of them (the Cobb one) was being dropped in favor os strengthening the other two.

It was reported that Rep Conyers wrote to K/E and asked them not to drop out from the Cobb suit. This most recent letter doesn't clarify that, but just thanks K/E for staying in.

So what gives? What is up here?

[paineinthearse]

2. There is a time delay

Notice Conyers' letter is dated 8/17.

Regarding your statements of facts, are those of 8/17, or are there any more recent developments?

[TayTay]

3. PITA: Is this the lawsuit?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2028177

I am only interested in what is involved in this lawsuit. Lots of folks sent letters, but someone else mentioned that there were 3 lawsuits. Is this the specific one that the PDA and that Rep Conyers is talking about?

Does anyone know? (I am uninformed as to the specifics here.)

[paineinthearse]

4. This is an excellent question to ask the experts....

in the Kerry & Edwards groups and in the 2004 election fraud group.

[Catchawave]

5. Most blogs are encouraging us to contact Kerry

http://www.johnkerry.com/contact/

in support of JC's letter to Kerry/Edwards. I wish he included Al Gore, who's become quiet since his fine convention speech:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/26/dems.gore.transcript/

As for me, I honestly think there needs to be a bipartisan committee to address and resolve fair elections, because even if (no WHEN !) the Dems win in '08, we don't have to go through this "sour grapes nightmare" with the GOP.

At this point, I'd like to spend this time reaching out to the 79 million voters who stayed home on Election Day 2004.

[kerrygoddess]

6. Reading Conyers most recent post...

It appears to me that Conyers may be tactfully explaining what has turned into a big mess, by some misconstruing the nature of his letter last week the K/E.

"That is why I have been so proud of the Kerry-Edwards campaign's ongoing involvement in the investigation and litigation of what went wrong in Ohio. I wrote to the candidates recently to ask that they continue to be involved in this important endeavor.

This is not about the past. It is about figuring out what went wrong and why -- and then getting the next election right, not for the Democratic Party, but for all of the voters."

Very nice note on Conyers part reminding everyone that he is proud of Kerry-Edwards ongoing involvement and that this issue is not about the past at this point but the future.

Translation: stop quibbling about the past and work towards the future and change.

[paineinthearse]

10. I posed the question to the Kerry group a couple hours ago

But there have been no replies.

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=273&topic_id=38900&mesg_id=38900

[TayTay]

11. Sigh! That's because we don't know

I am in the Kerry group. I came here to get info. I looked up other postings on DU and wanted to know if something posted today about a specific lawsuit in Ohio was the one that Rep Conyers was referring to. I am not sure. It seems to have merit.

(And btw, when this was first posted in the Kerry group, a lot of people immediately fired off a letter to Kerry asking him to stay in. We then got info last week that the lawsuits may be consolidated into a one or two lawsuits in the interest of building the strongest case. That is not bailing. That is legal strategy to fight on the strongest ground.)

[paineinthearse]

12. We then got info last week that the lawsuits may be consolidated

All lawsuits have docket numbers. Can you or anyone in the Kerry group provide those (three?) numbers and the court names?

It is then a simple exercise to locate the cases online.

[TayTay]

13. This site might have what you are looking for

They seem to be up on every action filed in Ohio that touches on 2004.

http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/

I guess what I was looking for was someone who was a lawyer or someone who coudl summarize what the various actions are. I am not a lawyer, I can't answer any of your questions because I am looking for the same explanations.

Damn, got it: http://www.nvri.org/about/ohio_cobb_badnarik_counterclaims_123004.pdf

Now, let me see if I can see the other lawsuits.

I found the LEague of Women Voters Lawsuit: http://www.nvri.org/about/ohio_complaint_072805.pdf
(Looks like just them as plaintiffs, or not. I can't tell.)

and finally: there is a conference on this coming up. I should expect that a lot of stuff will come out:

http://www.oregonvrc.org/

[LittleClarkie]

14. I don't believe that was exactly how it was stated

They were pulling out of one, but two more are still pending seemed to be the message. One of the lawsuits was with the League of Women Voters, the other I don't know, but both were related to the suppression as opposed to the fraud. The lawyers deemed the fraud case as likely not winnable, but the suppression cases as more viable.

You quoted the source link I have as well. Rayoflight is the one who had the info last week. Also do a find on his posts. He had contact with someone in the Kerry camp.

On edit: Here's rayoflight's original posting from his source:

"Kerry conceded because he lost the popular vote, and with that, the ability to legitimately/politically ask for an immediate recount.

He never intended to NOT investigate the vote, particularly in Ohio. But I saw the email from his campaign manager in Ohio--the one that said there was no evidence of outright fraud AT THAT TIME.

No one sat around--there was a huge amount of investigation--and much has come to light over time.

I understand that, had they been able to get anyone to come forward with proof, they would have called for an investigation before the vote was certified in January.

I also understand that John Kerry has supported the investigation of all legitimate concerns about the 2004 elections. He knows what happened.

There were, apparently, three lawsuits in Ohio. The one that PDA is asking people to complain about is the first--the Badnarik-Green lawsuit. It is not a strong case. Lawyers have advised that this one is not winnable.

There are TWO MORE LAWSUITS and THEY are going forward. The second and third lawsuits are, according to my sources, based more on the civil rights issues and Kerry-Edwards are indeed part of these suits.

It is also my understanding that more evidence has come out, and perhaps, some testimonials from observers within the state, with evidence. Ohio is not over. And John Kerry has not stopped fighting.

He never has and he won't. He is a quiet warrior, but he is a warrior.

You can take that to the bank--and the other blogs. Thank you."

[kerrygoddess]

15. Has Conyers provided details on the Investigations?

No he has not.

I would assume that due to the nature of the investigation, K/E can not discuss this. But, you've been told this already, so I wonder why you keep asking?

[paineinthearse]

16. It's a very simple question which nobody has an answer

What are the docket numbers (and courts) for the Ohio election fraud cases to which Kerry is a party?

TayTay is constructively working on a solution. Why the resistance and hostility?

sheesh

[TayTay]

17. Pain: I am done

the links I provided do have copies of the lawsuit. With docket numbers.

However, that and a $1.50 still won't get you a cup of coffee.

The other folks are correct in asking 'What does it mean?" Lawsuits get consolidated all the time in order to shift time, money and effort to where it can do the most good. I cannot definitvely answer (nor, I suspect, can anyone in the Kerry group) what lawsuit is strongest and why the Kerry group has switched. (If they have indeed switched. No confirmations have been sent out. We only have the comments of others.) I only managed to get the transcript of the Cobb lawsuit. I didn't find the others.

It is often true that you don't get to dance with the ones what brought ya to the club. It may be that the Cobb folks did good work getting and keeping this lawsuit before the Ohio courts. It may also be true that another lawsuit proveds a better and stronger chance of actually getting at what happened in Ohio. In that case, a switch makes sense. It will also look like betrayal. What are you going to do, abandon the best hope because it looks bad or take the best chance because it does democracy the most good. Sigh!

I would really like to get a look at these other lawsuits. If I find them and a decent explanation as to why they are better, I will most definitely share.

[LittleClarkie]

18. That 66 pager is going to take a few clams to print out

but from what I've seen, the individual complaints are very interesting, and sad.

I'd like to know how Kerry connects. Friend of the court?

Anyway, for those who need a research monkey, here's the case number as shown on TayTay's link

Case# 3:05CV7309

Is that what Mr. Paine was looking for?

[paineinthearse]

19. Exactly. 1 down and.......

Can Kerry confirm he is party to just this one Ohio election fraud case, the one he is supposedly leaving? Are there other cases filed by Cobb, Badnarek, etc?

[LittleClarkie]

21. Dunno dude

It's not my day to watch him.

(ie, no direct link to Sen. Kerry. Just getting the info as you do.)

[TayTay]

22. We are not hearing from the main combatants

One of the letters mentioned a pull-out next Tuesday. I guess we look at letters on the 'net and then wait till Tuesday. I will check back at the Ohio site and see if they know anything.

I can research stuff, but I don't know what I am looking at, sigh! I'll keep at it. There are few things more important than making sure that our election system works fairly, honestly and well. It is a civil rights issue, a foundation for democracy and the foundation for everything we hold dear. (People have died and continue to die to guarantee this right.) I care.

[LittleClarkie]

24. I'm with you.

This is Greek to me.

But I generally like to hear both sides. Too much assuming is going on.

[paineinthearse]

20. Beckerman's blog

Earlier today I had (an unrelated) PM exchange with Beckerman, the owner of http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/2005/07/federal-law-suit-to-reform-ohio.html and a new DU'er).

His blog appears to be a fantastic resource.

[Imagevision]

9. Apparently Kerry would prefer not to comment, like the WH.

[Chicago Democrat]

7. Continued to NOT GET IN THE WAY! (rrr, grrr, grrr, JFK grrr)

(mein gott, Kerry pissed me off by conceding so quickly)

[Imagevision]

8. Has Kerry replied?? or did he pull a Bush?? and not respond?

[goodhue]

23. Here is the latest from PDA . . .

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Kerry Update RE: Ohio Lawsuit
From: "Tim Carpenter, PDA" <[e-mail]>
Date: Tue, August 23, 2005 4:01 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Friends,

Last week we sent an email asking you to contact Senator John Kerry urging him not to withdraw from the Ohio recount case pending in federal court in Ohio. Since then, many of you have taken action and have voiced your concern to Senator Kerry. Thank you. Your voices are critical in the ongoing struggle to protect the right to vote. Some friends have responded by asking for further information or have suggested that the fight in the Ohio recount case is no longer worthwhile. We write to address these concerns.

Is Senator Kerry planning to withdraw from the case?

While not yet confirmed by Senator Kerry, Congressman Conyers and others have received credible information that Senator Kerry is preparing to withdraw from the recount case. Today, Congressman Conyers posted the letter we referred to last week on his blog (click on the word "wrote" in his blog statement to access the original letter): http://www.conyersblog.us/

Next Tuesday, August 30, Senator Kerry's lawyer will need to appear before Federal Judge Carr in Toledo, along with the other lawyers in the recount case. We will know by that point whether Senator Kerry intends to stay in the case. We may know earlier if he seeks to withdraw by filing papers doing so. What we know today is that your pressure is having an impact and we must keep it going. Please continue to call/email/send letters to Senator Kerry urging him to remain in this case and to join the amended counterclaims. Here again is Senator Kerry's contact information: http://www.johnkerry.com/contact/

Is fighting the Ohio recount case still worthwhile?

The struggle for the right to vote includes the struggle to ensure that all votes are properly counted. A recount is the procedure for doing that. If election officials resist our right to a meaningful recount conducted in accordance with basic constitutional standards, they trample on our right to vote. Senator Kerry must not withdraw from the Ohio recount case.

What is at stake in the Ohio recount case is whether recounts in federal (presidential and congressional) elections will be conducted in accordance with basic equal protection and due process as guaranteed by the US Constitution or whether they will receive the same kind of sham recount received in Ohio in December. For a fuller understanding of all of the serious violations that occurred during the recount in Ohio last December, see the amended counterclaims filed by David Cobb and Michael Badnarik at: http://www.nvri.org/about/ohio_cobb_badnarik_counterclaims_123004.pdf. These amended counterclaims raise major constitutional concerns. David Cobb and Michael Badnarik are to be congratulated for continuing to press this fight for all of us. Senator Kerry should continue to stand by their side.

Thank you for all you are doing to ensure that recounts matter and that all votes are properly counted.

Keep on,

Tim Carpenter
Director, PDA