A plea to STOP this "We can't sink to Rove's level" BULLSHIT. Just STOP.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

I was HERE during the 2004 election. RIGHT HERE, on DU.

I REMEMBER how threads questioning John Kerry's campaign were greeted:

"SHUT THE FUCK UP! HE KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING!"

I REMEMBER when I posted a thread about a phone call I made to the local Kerry headquarters. When I asked the person on the other end of the phone if Senator Kerry REALLY UNDERSTOOD his opponent...that it WAS NOT George W. Bush, it was Karl Rove...and if Senator Kerry TRULY UNDERSTOOD the depths to which Rove was willing to sink.

I REMEMBER the DU poster who replied to my thread, telling me that my phone call took that Kerry operator from VALUABLE RESPONSIBILITIES that were MORE IMPORTANT than MY CALL.

We need to STOP THAT KIND OF SHIT. We need to QUESTION people who are not adequately prepared to SLAY THE FUCKING DRAGON.

I don't CARE if you like the fact that it's Karl Rove's playing field.

IT IS. That's how that WORTHLESS, A.W.O.L., substance-abusing, Oedipal, DRY DRUNK COWARD MOTHERFU**ING POS in the White House got TWO TERMS.

Because it's KARL ROVE'S GAME.

James Carville was a FUCKING CLOWN during the 2004 election.

He went on cable news to giggle and bitch-slap Tucker Eskew, but was he prepared to FIGHT?

NO.

So let's KNOCK OFF this "we can't sink to Rove's level" CRAP, and accept the fact that if we want to win in 2008, we need to drive a fucking stake through the heart of the lead vampire.

The lead vampire is Karl Rove.

Accept it, or bend over for President Frist.

:grr:

[Cocoa]

1. we have to stop yelling at each other

:mad:

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

5. It happens.

If someone posts something on DU, and it's in obvious violation of DU rules & regulations, that's one thing...

But if someone expresses an opinion, and the only response a person can think of is "shut the fuck up," MAYBE...just MAYBE...that person should consider NOT replying to that thread.

The 2008 GOP candidate for president is Karl Rove. The ticket MAY say "John McCain" or "Bill Frist," but the person to defeat is Karl Rove.

Are we prepared to do that?

[NoFederales]

32. Send 'lil tURDbLOSSUM to me; I'll be his huckleberry. . . .

NoFederales

[calimary]

78. Can't find a lot to disagree with, here.

And YES we have to stop this pious "we can't stoop to their level! Tnat makes us no better than them..." stuff. You know what I say when I hear that? "Oh woe, we don't want to be like THEM, do we?" Ummm - actually, YES. I DO - repeat - DO want to be like them. Because you know what they are? They're WINNERS. To govern, you have to WIN. WINNING is everything in politics. You're either in the winners' circle or you're out in the wilderness, and I'm frickin' tired of being in the wilderness. There'll be time enough to change or positively affect or tweak the rules of the game and political civility - WHEN WE WIN. And ONLY when we WIN. But first, we have to WIN. I'm not afraid to wrestle in the mud. Maybe what the enemy needs is mud slapped back across their faces and in their eyes.

[Imagevision]

37. Right we must start screaming at our Dem Senators!!

perhaps replace with other Democratic Denators who know how to lead!

http://downingstreetmemo.com/

[wake.up.america]

65. I agree. I have NEVER attacked anybody on this forum. I will never..

do so. I may disagree or ask a question. We need to work as a unit.

I am here because I do not like what's going on in the States, and everyone else is here for the same reason.

I also suggest we stop treating the other side as if they have any sense. It is up to us to educate the other side. They need lessons on how to think clearly. Yelling does not do it.

Force the other side to use reason or they should be ignored.

[inthebrain]

67. Rove is just a small cog in a big machine

I dont think focusing on Rove is going to do much.

Just as in sports, winning in politics is done by focusing on what you do. Attacking Rove may sound like a good offensive maneuver but in the end it's really just defensive politics. If attacking Rove is your strategy you fail to see the big picture. Seeing the big picture of Rove, means coming to terms with what right wing media has done to corrupt democracy.

The media has now become a tool for the Republican party to air all their talking points. If you want to neutralize Rove you need to push the media back to becoming objective again. That used to be considered the proffessional standard as opposed to the now "fair and balanced" or subjective view.

It should be every member of DU's priority to volunteer for Media Matters.

Playing Rove's game of character smears against him means playing his game. You will always lose if you choose to play the game of the enemy. Afterall, it is THEIR game.

If you want to beat them with character smears, do it on the issues. Let America know that you are sick and tired of both political parties getting co-opted by corporations. Dollar for Dollar, the average citizen cannot compete with Phizer, Merk, Tyco and Halliburton. Democrats should be the last of the major two parties accepting their contributions. If you want to see why that's such a disaster look at Clintons presidency. Also, take a look at Reagans rule and how his millitary industrial complex leads to all of our problems today.

Rove is a very tiny peice composed of other players like Weyrich, Efron, Podhoretz, Kristol, Savage, Horowitz, Limbaugh, Murdoch and FoxNews. Understanding how these people work is the first step to punching a hole into Right Wing Republican dominance of our political structure and media.

[Kipepeo]

79. Yes YES YES

Rove is big. But the media is bigger, and both are on the GOP payroll.

Even if the democratic candidate is willing to fight on Rove's level it won't mean shit when the press is on the other side. To me everything comes down to educating the public (the portion that truly wants the facts) and you can't do that with the current media. In fact they'll go out of their way to plant misinformation and bullshit (like the recent AP article talking about the "patriotic camp" opposing Cindy Sheehan)...until we change or shame the media we can change nothing, imho.

[ironman202]

2. I posted this a few minutes ago on another thread

Where are the real democrats? I'm talking the Church Committee Hair-on-Fire-Subpoena-in-one-hand-battering-ram-in-the-other screaming at every microphone burning bush in effigy flag waving patriotic what the fuck are you doing Democrats? Where are they? Is this what we have, these lily livered DLC pieces of crap?

[LaurenG]

3. I must have missed something

I haven't seen a thread with Kerry bashing for a day or two. I think people want someone to take up for us, to speak for is and make it stop, I agree though about Kerry, he is one of the few who are trying to do anything. I like him...still.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

9. I'm not bashing Kerry.

I was UNEMPLOYED, and I contributed to the Kerry campaign...THREE FUCKING TIMES.

I do not believe, however, that John Kerry...or Mary Beth Cahill...or WHOEVER...REALLY understood that in order to win the election, they would have to DEFEAT Karl Rove.

I AM NOT KERRY BASHING.

[LaurenG]

13. I think one of us misunderstood

I thought you were saying that someone else on the board was bashing him and i hadn't seen that post. No problem here with me. I didn't think you were. :hi:

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

30. No, I'm not posting about anyone else...

...I'm just saying that we're going to have to make some tough decisions about defeating Karl Rove once and for all.

:toast:

[Amonester]

14. They would have had to DEFEAT Diebold&Co also. - eom

:argh:

On edit: ain't any 'puter throwing smily on the right here. Sorry.

[Dragonfli]

19. This is a good image to express "kill Diebold"

[Amonester]

25. LOL - I'm afraid just one wouldn't be enough! ;-)

We'd need more or less 75 millions of :grr: (who can vote using properly hand counted paper ballots...) to do that. Which ever come first?

[Dragonfli]

26. True...

I for one would prefer the "properly hand counted paper ballots" to happen first.

I would get tired nuking 75 million corrupt servers.
A couple thousand, no problem; but I am too lazy to kill all of them.

Willing tho I may be!


D

[nolabels]

58. The slippery slope gets more slippery all the time

Have you not noticed..... it will be easier to pull the chair (oppose nominally) and let them fall over by themselves. Shouldn't we be graphing the trajectory rather than debating how grotesque it is

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

Them numbers could get.....well you know. Just consider how badly it's going that even with the whole lot of Corporate MSM trying spin and pump up and that he is still failing and not letting go. At Bushes current rate, he is headed for one colossal screw up

[sunnystarr]

75. Can't we do two things at the same time? (nt)

[petgoat]

62. "This is a great image!"

Now can you make it do a "progressive collapse" like the WTC?

[mattclearing]

4. I'm assuming that you aren't advocating sinking to Rove's level.

Personally, I believe in beating them on the facts and making them pay. Clinton had the goods on Herbert Walker Bush, I'm sure of it.

Having the goods on someone and negotiating a fair fight is fair play.

What isn't fair play, and makes you look like a total fucking idiot, is saying, "But what about Dick Cheney's gay daughter?" in a debate.

It just goes to show that our people are so lame at getting things in the media that we have to stoop to getting our actual candidates to say the things that everyone should already know because we put out talking points out there and had people repeat them ad nauseum in the media.

But yeah, I find it hard to believe that Kerry wasn't aware of Karl Rove's history, or of BBV, or any of the other things that clearly were possible factors in the election.

You can't assume the Republicans will fight fair. They have yet to in my lifetime.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

7. I'm advocating defeating Karl Rove.

...because if we DON'T, it's "four more years" of the GOP.

[eridani]

24. Yes, the Big Dawg did have the goods on Bush I

His campaign informed the opposition that if they made a big deal about Gennifer Flowers or any other Clinton girlfriend, they'd spread the news of Daddy B's long-term girlfriend all over. Both campaigns agreed to hold their fire on that issue.

[NEOBuckeye]

6. Hey, I'm all for burning his ashes.

But, in case you haven't noticed, Rove's supposed genius has backfired upon him in the Valarie Plame scandal. There really is such a thing as going too far to ruin your enemies.

All I can say is wait and see what Fitzgerald comes out with. If it's an indictment with Rove's name on it, then that is when we must throw everything in the book at him, including the book itself. Let there be no doubt in anyone's mind from that very moment on that the man is a treasonous coward, and deserves to rot in jail for the rest of his pathetic life.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

8. He IS a treasonous coward, but as long as Bush defends him...

...there's avery real chance that this treasonous coward could walk away without a SCRATCH, and become the "architect" of the 2008 presidential election.

Are we REALLY prepared for that, or are we willing to do whatever we need ot do to BRING HIM DOWN?

[LSU_Subversive]

15. has it? has it really? the rove scandal hasn't concluded yet, but if i

were to place my bets and to do so based on past experience, i'd say that not much will happen to him. worse case scenario, he'll resign his position. but don't even think that'll stop him. he's already proven his mettle to these bastards. they'll continue to consult with him, it's just that they'll do so on the DL. at least for a little while.

i can think of too many examples to support my point (e.g., ollie north, poindexter, kissinger, negroponte, etc.).

[OzarkDem]

47. And another will follow him

Just as he followed Lee Atwater. RNC always has a succession plan in place and a farm team to draw from.

Dem leaders have no excuse for sitting on their thumbs, doing nothing. They are rudderless and lazy.

[quaoar]

10. Let's sink to Rove's level

Ya know, he looks gay, doesn't he?

And "Karl" -- that's a communist name, isn't it?

And how about "Rove" -- that's not a real name. He probably changed it from his real name -- Abdul Aziz al-Haq.

[Imagevision]

18. Not to Rove's level but levels they've never seen before - you fight fire

with a flame thrower. The rule book was tossed along time ago. Time to be brilliant if our Dem sentors have any backbone? --Is Obama still alive and with us or has he decided not to enter the "fray"??

[Balbus]

84. "Ya know, he looks gay, doesn't he?"

What, exactly, does a gay person look like? What physical characteristics or traits identifies a person as gay? Just wondering... :shrug:

[LSU_Subversive]

11. here. here. nt.

[LittleClarkie]

12. I'd feel sorry for the person at Kerry HQ

I was that person sometimes. We were just shmucks on the phone, and yet we'd get calls like that as if we had a direct line to the guy. "Tell Kerry to stop being so negative or I won't vote for him! You tell him that!"

BEB, the person you spoke to at HQ was just a peon. Certainly not an insider. Someone like me. Please remember that for next time. Us peons would be much obliged.

Just one more thing. I don't want to see us BECOME the Republicans so we can BEAT the Republicans. Why cry about the DLC if that's the case, ya know?

Like Kerry said, "We don't need two Republican parties."

And I bet he did know, actually.

[Leeny]

27. I've been that peon too

I've been that peon too. It's a definite eye-opener to the whole process. And no, us peons don't have a direct line to the candidate. But we do volunteer our time to get out there and knock on doors, make phone calls, talk to people and really get a sense of what it's like out there.

People are so disconnected from the process. And this whole "politicians suck" thing, true as it may be in many cases, just pisses me off. It's an easy thing to say, but not always true. Generalizations don't serve us well. Paul Wellstone was a "politician". John Kennedy was a "politician."

I've worked with a few "politicians", also referred to as public servants. Also people who, in some cases, dedicate their lives to trying to pass laws to make it better for the rest of us while we sit there on our asses and talk shit about "politicians."

Watch the process sometime. It will open your eyes.

Yes, there are the blowhards and the speech-makers and the self-serving son-of-a-bitches and they make me want to gag. And... most of them are Republicans. And they all say the same thing.

But watch the process sometime and watch a bill be presented in committee by a "politician" who really has an agenda to get some things done.

*******

Okay, I feel better now.

[newyawker99]

41. Hi Leeny!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Leeny]

42. Thanks!

Thanks. I think I'm finally feeling comfortable enough to jump in. Great to be here. Hope we can pull off a coup in 2008. Maybe we need to get our own voting machines. Hee hee.

[growlypants]

16. BRILLIANT!!!!!

[Dragonfli]

17. Just call me Dragonfli the dragonslayer

We need to STOP THAT KIND OF SHIT. We need to QUESTION people who are not adequately prepared to SLAY THE FUCKING DRAGON.

I don't CARE if you like the fact that it's Karl Rove's playing field.

He is evil..

But not a true dragon, it takes one to know one, and he is no Dragon.

I will continue to try to pound the stake into his soulless heart.

The truth is, or should be, sufficient to combat him.
Truth with gloves off, unashamed and unafraid of offending people.
I am with you, and not alone.

D

[Cocoa]

20. sinking to Rove's level is FUCKING CONCEDING TO ROVE

Rove and his ilk would LOVE to turn politics into their definition of it.

Instead of fucking bending over and giving Rove what he fucking wants, why don't we fucking FIGHT him????

Let's follow fucking DENNIS KUCINICH and fight for PEACE not WAR!

Let's be like the people in all conflicts who have the courage to stand up to the FUCKING HAWKS whose only goal is PERPETUATE WAR!

PEACE, NOT FUCKING WAR. :bounce:

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

31. He has to be taken out of the equation, one way or the other.

I'm not advocating sinking to his level.

I'm advocating fighting him and defeating him.

The "we can't sink to Rove's level" rhetoric came from DU.

So my question is "How can we defeat him if we don;t sink to his level?"

Because one of the things that Rove does is "define the playing field."

That's one of the first things we need to stop...it needs to STOP being "a Democratic candidate defensing him/herself in Rove's game."

[Cocoa]

34. "we can't sink to Rove's level" is FUCKING ESSENTIAL

We have to fucking STOP the bullshit cynicism that says Rove's way is the only fucking way.

We have to stop fucking SELLING OUT peaceloving Dems like Dennis Kucinich. :mad:

And we have to SHUT THE FUCK UP about fucking corporate dems like Biden, and start supporting CLEAN dems like Russ Feingold. The negative attention Biden gets makes it seem like he defines the party. That's BULLSHIT.

Every fucking time Biden is on TV on Sunday, he gets ten zillion threads about his appearance, and Russ Feingold was greeted with a big yawn. :mad:

[slor]

21. I like the cut of your jib...

Mr. Beef. And I support your view, so let us go forward to slay the half pig/half lizard people!

[Sparkly]

22. I agree, the GOP has been great at enforcing Democrats' MANNERS.

They sling mud with abandon, yet they feign white-gloved shock when Kerry swears or Dean tells the truth.

Yes, it's Rove -- but it started with Gingrich and if Rove bows out for 2008, there'll be somebody else (Karen Hughes, perhaps).

Since 2000, the RNC has been giving Democrats free advice (how nice of them) such as, "Democrats can't go negative." "Democrats have to be careful not to attack a wartime president." "Democrats can't seem angry or bitter." They're STILL doing that.

Now they've added, "Democrats criticize and complain, but don't have any ideas of their own." That needs to be countered loudly and strongly.

Gore took the high road, and never "went negative," and their campaign of "Liar Liar Pants on Fire" made it close enough to steal. Kerry's campaign was better at offense (which is more effective against an incumbent), but I agree -- they underestimated the power of the other side's offense until it was too late.

Their game is basically, "Make the other candidate unacceptable." They tie a lot of cultural propaganda into the whole thing, but ultimately, that's what it's all about. Doing the same, or even telling the truth, leads to the old "Lesser of two evils" ennui among voters, but so be it.

In my view, this is literally about life and death. I hope Democrats will go on the offense, ignore the "helpful hints" on manners from the RNC, and make whoever their candidate is in 2008 unacceptable, no matter what it takes.

[Imagevision]

38. Some DEm Senators are too damn wimpy - should be replaced

I thought Obama won in the senate?

[liberalpragmatist]

23. We can play hardball without resorting to dishonesty - nt

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

33. Yes, but it will need to be GENUINE Hardball.

...and we'd need to play it with the clear understanding that Rove will do anything to win.

[TankLV]

45. Nobody said anything about dishonesty!

Funny that should be the first thing to come to you mind when people urge the Democrats to FIGHT and FIGHT HARD and FIGHT TO WIN!

Not "triangulate" and "focus groups" and WAITING WITH THEIR FUCKING FINGERS IN THE GODDAMN AIR" like they have been doing.

[HardWorkingDem]

54. EXACTLY!

An example of this is how every other word out of the Bushies mouth is "9/11".

Let's be honest - their party loyalty and discipline must be appreciated.

Every Dem on TV should take questions and then aim like a laser beam back to Rove. Say, "I'll answer your question, but first let me say this"....and zero in on Rove or whatever scandal and then give two seconds to the put forth question.

[samsingh]

that would be like going to war without guns.

these people not only fight dirty, they cheat, distort, and makeup whatever is required to win.

[samsingh]

28. that would be like going to war without guns.

these people not only fight dirty, they cheat, distort, and makeup whatever is required to win.

[Dan]

29. Right on

Never get into a knife fight empty handed.

[kodi]

35. yield no quarter for surely you shall receive none from our enemies

for those who have forgotten the lying, cheating, souless bastard vermin we face



next time this happens, there will be bloodshed.

and never forget, the bush election and republican national committees paid these mother fuckers to do this.

[applegrove]

36. I think Cindy has done well by punching through to the truth in

an empathetic & adult way. So too Jon Stewart.

We don't have to act like them. They are patsies.

[ElectroPrincess]

39. Nope, but we better study them CLOSELY so we can counter their

assaults on the truth. And when we counter we BEST be covering each other's political back. This is going to be brutal, whether we fight clean or dirty. However, let's take care not to set ourselves up for any more blatant "sucker punches" in the future?

[applegrove]

40. What we need to be is discerning. But keep our humanity & adulthood.

Fight like adults do. And appeal to the adult in the right. It is working for Cindy. Already people are saying: "it is not right for us to go to war and the rich sacrifice NOTHING - that is not okay with me - that policy of Bush's to "Go Shopping" while never taking part in the sacrifice diminishes me as an adult & a human being - we sacrifice together or not at all".

[sendero]

43. An example for me..

... is the 2004 conventions.

The Rep noise machine starts up with "I hope the Dem convention isn't a Bush bash" and what did our party leaders do? They fell for it and made nice-nice.

What did the Repugs do at their convention? Kerry-bash 24/7.

Whoever made the decision to go easy on Bush at the convention is a moron who should be running a 7-11, not a policial campaign.

[McCamy Taylor]

44. Rove is stupid and get's caught. Why stoop to Stupid's level?????

[TankLV]

46. Please elaborate. Seems he's succeeding to this very moment

Do you know something we don't?

They have the press on the run.
They have OUR White House, Congress and Senate.
They have the Judiciary.

They have their tentacles intewoven into the smallest branches of government at all levels - EVEN OUR WIMPY DEM PARTY!

[OzarkDem]

48. No one is suggesting that

But there's no excuse for not developing an offensive and defensive strategy - and we have neither right now.

[AtomicKitten]

49. I say step up the Rovian maneuvers

We know the vulgar pigboy and his dirty tricks. I am fully into fighting fire with fire. It's the only way we will even tread water in their presence. Quiet dignity is BS. I saw let's get our hands dirty.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

50. But Kerry would HAVE to have known they would Swiftboat him

because they had done it before in MA senatorial races. So you wouldn't have to out-Rove on that one.

I wish that the democratic party would contract DU to creat a strategy. It would be brilliant.

During the election, I approached people who would have had easy access to party leaders, about pulling together strategy/comeback ideas from the rank-in-file, organizing them, and submitting a synopsis on a daily basis. Everyone here knows that we can think of comebacks and "he should have said this" ideas ten million times better than those who spoke for us. They did not follow up on this idea. Too many egos, long resumes with tired ideas. Maybe if we all write to Dean for next time it could happen.

BTW, you don't have to be Rovian to outsmart him, or think one step ahead of him.

Perfect example: No one seems to EVER have a response to "Would you prefer that Saddam was still in power?" They hem and haw. This is a perfect opportunity to say, "Saddam was totally contained and the inspectors had unbridled access and were turning up nothing." And "This is the point that I KNEW for certain that Bush was manufacturing this invasion. As each day passed that the inspectors found nothing, and Bush pushed faster and harder for invasion (to invent Niger documents) A PRUDENT PERSON WOULD HAVE SLOWED DOWN."

[SeanQ]

53. Here here!! nt

[mmonk]

51. We can't sink to his level

we might get indicted.

[txaslftist]

55. Oh, not all of us.

They're willing to lie, cheat, steal, distort, defame, etcetera...

We should be just as dishonest, soulless, corrupt and vile. If that doesn't work, well, what are special forces for, anyway? Shouldn't we just 'take Rove out?'

And once we have secured victory, we can make lists of all of those who supported Bush and make sure they can't get jobs. And then, once they are out of work for a while, we can start rounding them up as homeless 'threats to our freeedom'. Then we can start setting up camps, you know- work camps in the East.

The kind of camps where you go in, but don't come out (wink wink).

Yeah... that's what we should do. That'll larn 'em.

[Imagevision]

52. Sink to his level? that'slame - just outsmart him - he study all the

wrong moves made in the Nixon administration , like this really takes alot, Rove is way over-rated...he merely sneaked his shit in while no-one was watching.

[ewagner]

56. Screaming NAKED from the rooftop

and STILL ...nobody believes me.

I've agrued before that we need campaign professionals who will do whatever it takes to win but will work to get people into office who have higher moral standards.......

I know

It's contradictory

But that's the way it's got to be.

[The Sleeper]

60. Yeah, that's my point toooo !

[CWebster]

57. Quit apologizing for the Democrats

Either they don't want to confront or oppose or they're so far out of the loop they don't have a clue. And if they don't have a clue, then they are incompetent and not fit to lead.

Why should ANY of these Democrats who had endless opportunities to stand against Bush--instead of conspiring to bring down Dean, be rewarded with the presidency simply by default because of the imbecile son's tumbling numbers?


http://www.thenation.com/blogs/outrage?bid=13&pid=15883

[klebean]

72. exactly what Gary Hart said in the washington post today

that is, that no dem should be awarded the presidency by default

[The Sleeper]

59. Why not both ?

Multiple types of attacks from many directions. It's important to keep them off balance. Always do the unexpected, and really, how difficult can it be to lure such greedy, selfserving SOB's into compromising and destructive situations ?

Also, much of their arrogance comes from their sense of being powerful enough to control everything. That's why it is imperative to attack them from all directions to disrupt that feeling of control.

..and not just the head Head BushCo's..... ALL OF THEM. EVERY LAST ONE.
Where are the files on the dirty tricksters ? Why aren't they being harassed and broken ?

What about all the Corporate Scum that support these bastards ? How about the lobbyists ?

They are all dirty as hell.

That bloated, corrupt infrastructure is such a big juicy target....

[maxpower]

61. Exactly

I have been saying the same thing. Sometimes you gotta get mean. We will never win again playing nice.

[The Sleeper]

63. Yep, to the dems, it's a croquet match...

and the Repubs show up with tire irons.

[belle]

77. Agree we should play hard and mean. Don't think we need to stoop to

making up shit out of whole cloth, or smearing and/or endangering peoples' families (not to mention national security) as political retaliation, for instance. The truth should be ample material to hang these fuckers with. Just don't let up. never back down. and don't be afraid to kick these particular fuckers when they're down. and never underestimate the depths to which they'll sink, and be prepared for it, even if we aren't going to mirror them in every despicable detail.

[PurgedVoter]

64. That's a real problem.

Put it very simple and slowly, Rove is without any ethic or balance.
Here is how to win against Rove.

The first thing that needs to be done in any campaign is to attack Rove.
Watch where he is. Watch who he contacts. Follow his movements. Find every reasonable law suit and pursue it in court. Tie this man up, let him know that you know he is the enemy of our Nation.

The second thing that needs to be done is to hit his tools. Find reporters that he uses. Make that news. If a politician uses him or consults with him. Make that news. Keep the traitor busy. Anyone who uses him is the type that would put politics before Flag, Nation and Ethic. Anyone who would consult with him, does not belong in a free countries body politic.

The third thing is to examine his buzz words and hit them correctly. The Flip-Flop was a prime example of Rove attacking from weakness. He turned George Bush, the no reading, science ignoring, clue free freak into a firm headed, solid thinking, resolute man. When they called Kerry a flip-flopper, we should have attacked Bush. Bush is a stubborn, idiot that won't recognize a mistake even unto death. The flip-flop attack was defending the presidents great idiocy. And it worked.

The fourth thing to do is to be ready to scramble signals next time there is a debate or question and answer. We need to be led by thinkers not PR men.

We cannot afford to be a nation led by evil, we cannot afford to be led by Rove.

[elehhhhna]

66. Can't go 'round him--gotta go under him! Fine by me.

[Efilroft Sul]

68. Agreed.

The Democrats can take the high road after they win elections. Until then, no more nicey-nice.

[SwimmerFilms]

69. Talk is cheap...

You doing anything else besides condemning others for lack of action?
Just curious.

[derby378]

71. "Lack of action" is a pretty big one

Kerry underestimated Rove and got bitch-slapped for it. The Presidency should have been his, but he let the DLC talk him into watering down his message when he should have instead served America a big, steaming cup of hot coffee.

[Jim Sagle]

73. Same to you. Pal.

[centristo]

70. don't listen to the nay-sayers

you are right on. I don't think we need to be the sneaky back-stabbing A-holes that Rove and his ilk are, but we do need to get our hands a lot dirtier than they are now.

Also, we shouldn't simply use Rovian tactics against Republican opponents. We need to bitchslap the Rovian tactics down to the ground EVERYTIME they are thrown at us. Paul Hackett ran his campaign the right way. Say what you mean and say it often. I think he should have won that election, but I wasn't in Cincy when it happened so I don't know what went on. I think people are starting to get the message though.

Keep in mind it took the Republicans a LONG time to get their echo chamber constructed. We get a couple of straight-talking, no-nonsense Democrats together and we'll be back on track.

[MoonRiver]

74. Exactly! I'm sick of being told I cannot criticize prominent Dems

when they fall far short of my idea about what a liberal Senator or Congressperson should be doing to combat the fascists controlling our government. Well, message to the cheerleaders: I will not be silenced. Nor should I be. The situation in this party is about as grim as it gets, and nobody wants to even whisper the fact that the emperors have no clothes. f&%$ that shit. I speak out against * and I will speak out against his enablers, whomever they may be.

[roseBudd]

76. I've been fighting dirty all along, I created a flyer that fanned the

draft rumor and stapled and glued it to utility poles all around a swing state campus, in barber shops, bus stops etc.

I stapled and glued the Two Face image we were asked to disseminate

I flyered cars with flyers with titles like FLIM FLAM MAN, Aug 6 2001 Presidential Daily Brief...

I even wrote a wildly popular rap/poem called "George W. Bush is a punk ass bitch" and I handed out over 100 a day to people who wanted it.

Then I created http://bushcheated04.com

and the song Loser version 2.0

In the time of chimpanzees Bush was a monkey
Butane in Rove’s veins as he ran the junkie.
Newscasters lying while we tube feed the vegetables,
Dog food dinners for the grannies stealin’ Tylenol.
Kill all your brain cells and put it in neutral,
Iraq is flamin’ with the loser and the cruise control.
Babies in Gitmo is how Rummy plays D,
Gamble with democracy, try to kill diplomacy.

Someone came sayin’ I’m insane to complain
About a looted treasury and a stain on my country.
Can’t believe what they want us to breathe,
You get a lungful of mercury and a moron in the lead.

So you change some votes with a few keystrokes
Doin’ cages in Florida, and lines in Ohio.

George says he’s emperor
But he’s a cheater baby
He stole the election (fascism meltdown)
George says he’s emperor
But he’s a loser baby
So why not impeach him.

Forces of evil in a bozo nightmare,
Playing all the rubes with a phony echo chamber.
One is a weasel as the others sport the flag;
A mother alone gets her son back in a bag

With the rerun wars from Mr. Cocaine nose job,
The devious bullshit of a race war flip flop
A GI hung himself with a guitar string;
A slab of cannon fodder and he’s hanging so he doesn’t sing.

I can’t write if you can’t relate,
Trade the cash for a gay bash for the body for the hate.
And this time it’s a piece of crack<BR>
We’ve fallen for the bad times, we’re choking on the nightmares.


George says he’s emperor<
But he’s a cheater baby
He stole the election (fascism meltdown)
George says he’s emperor
But he’s a loser baby
So why not impeach him.


“If this were a dictatorship it’d be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.”


George says he’s emperor
But he’s a cheater baby
He stole the election. (I can’t believe this)
George says he’s emperor
But he’s a loser baby
So why not impeach him.

George says he’s emperor
We’re all losing baby
So we’ve got to change it (Sprechen sie Deuthsche baby?).
George says he’s emperor
We’re all losing baby
So we’ve got to change it. (Or there’ll be nothin’ to be sayin’).

George says he’s emperor
We’re all losing baby
So we’ve got to change it. (I can’t believe this)
George says he’s emperor
We’re all losing baby
So we’ve got to change it.

[Kickin_Donkey]

80. I agree ...

The Dems always unilaterally disarm.

The naysayers say, "We don't want to stoop to their level."

I say, Hell, we'll never be on their low level even if we tried, because are basic tenet is decency and fairness.

That being said, we at least need to fight back, and fight back with hardball tactics if need be. But we don't even need dirty tactics; we have the truth, which is sufficient.

But our Dem leaders need to at least fight, and very few of them are. Bartcop calls them the Pink Tu-tu Democrats. They're appeasers.

No more unilateral disarmament. No more appeasement.

[bluestateguy]

81. Let me put it to you this way

When we say that we want our candidate to "fight dirty", sometimes I wonder if some people here really realize what that might mean.

How would we fel about the Democratic campaign violating campaign finance laws? Or digging up dirt on the opposition's family members, or even their children? Or Nixonian, Donald Segretti type of shit that was done in 1972 to the McGovern campaign? Break-ins, wire taps, phone taps, planting of news stories and phony evidence, fraternity style pranks on the opposition, planting moles in the Republican campaign?

Or maybe, just maybe, "going racial" or "going sexist" if the Republican nominee is anything other than a white male Protestant.

I shudder to ask these questions, but they must be asked and debated.

[elperromagico]

82. There's no point in arguing about the route the car will take

when the car doesn't have an engine.

And that's where the Democratic Party seems to be right now. There are a lot of people arguing about where we're going to take the car or what we're going to do with the car once we get wherever we're going.

I hear very few people saying, "Hey, where's the goddamn engine?"

That engine is ideas.

Clinton didn't just beat the Republicans by fighting back hard. He beat them by having better ideas than them. He beat them by being able to challenge them -- and the American people -- with something other than "The Republicans suck."

On issue after issue -- on Iraq, on social welfare, on education, on jobs -- the American people are ready to listen to the Democrats' ideas.

And what do we offer them?

"Bush's ideas are bad. Vote for us!" Or "Bush's ideas are okay but he isn't carrying them out the right way. Vote for us!" Or "Bush's ideas are great. But vote for us anyway!"

Those are ideas only in the academic sense. They damned sure aren't the basis for an agenda.

We can call the Republicans everything but children of God; we can get down in the mud and shit with them. But as long as our ideas consist of nothing more than "The Republicans suck," we're not likely to beat them.

Hell yes, BEB, let's fight them with everything we've got. Let's hit them as hard as we can and not give up until they're boarding the planes out of Washington.

But first, let's figure out where our engine is.

[rhett o rick]

83. I agree Rove must be dealt with, but we can do it effectively w/o stooping

to his level. Once you stoop to his level, then all is lost. One wouldn't be able to tell you apart. However, we need to concentrate on him because he is our biggest threat. We must anticipate his every move. Stop playing catch-up. For example, today the internet is freedoms biggest ally. We must start insuring safeguards are in place. Additionally, when Rove does a hatchet job, it must be revealed. For example, what really happened to Dan Rather, what happened to the Newsweek Koran in the toilet incident, and can anyone prove he slimed John McCain? We must not rely on the treason case to stop him. We must fight as hard as we can but never lose our principles. But I agree we should concentrate on Rove, he is the head of the serpent or at least the brain.