Chavez Dismisses Robertson Death Wish, Offers 'Medical Aid' to U.S. Poor!

[welshTerrier2]

how cool is this guy?? what better way to respond to a jackass like Robertson than to highlight the way America treats its poorest citizens ... i wonder if this will be widely reported in the US ... i doubt it ... we can't have poor Americans receiving aid from "foreigners", can we? ... what would that say about our own country?

the following article appears today in Venezuela's "Cadena Global" newspaper ...

source: http://www.watchingamerica.com/cadenaglobal000002.html

But Chavez said what did concern him was the level of poverty of certain people in the United States, and he offered aid from his government to help with the well-being and health of the American people.

Chavez said that some citizens of that country could be enrolled in the VISTA medical program of Cuba, and he even spoke of offering a special program of direct gasoline assistance to poor communities.

"The level of poverty in the United States also worries us. We offer not only to cover 6 million people with Vista over the next ten years, but to train over 200,000 doctors over the 10 years. We will put them back into Vista," he said.

“Venezuela is also offering energy aid. We could assist some poor communities by selling them gasoline directly. If we sell directly they could save a lot of money. If you are going to New York or San Francisco, the price of a barrel of Venezuelan gasoline is $80. That is almost double the price at which it leaves us, because intermediaries speculate and raise the price. We are prepared to help poor communities with doctors and not only with the Vista but also with fuel."

[Dhalgren]

1. Chavez for US President!

Gods, this guy is good...

[whatever4]

15. Yeah, he is

And Bush wants to take him on. I think this is the first real war he may have started, but I don't think he understands his opposition. They can't; public service is foreign to these folks. Bush has no idea what he's taking on. Chavez has powerful friends, oil, and broad support. We're already so unpopular, America-hating is quite the bandwagon activity.

Chavez is amazing. But to turn against Bush...he has to turn against us. I imagine he, himself, feels bad about that. He says as much. But it's HIS people he cares about, and it's HIS people he will defend. And they will defend him.

Makes me wonder who's going to defend us. Our goverment does not. Not at home; how many we have in prison right now? Not abroad either, and as far as that, I wouldn't travel anywhere right now unless I had to. They hate us. They curse and attack Americans just for thier accent, nevermind how we personally feel about our nation or president. We have been grouped together with the war mongers, whether we want to be or not. Americans are hated now in a way they've never been hated before.

It won't take much for other countries to side with Chavez. THAT one worries me. We aren't the superpower we used to be, and the covert ops have lost their surprise factor. Now that we're known for the monsters we are, our activities can be watched for and anticipated. We've played all our cards already on losing wars, and they know now to watch for anything and everything, because NO laws seem to be in effects as they pertain to US policy. Now they know. They aren't going to forget.

We've shown our true colors, and in Chavez, he's run into someone that will say so, and say it in words that MAKE SENSE, words that convince. Worrisome are other nations don't care for Americans nearly as much as Chavez does. He might not want to hurt us. Others do. They might all wind up in the same boat. Priorities for our welfare will be pretty far down the line, I'd think, in that group. We already live much better than they do; there'll be very little sympathy toward the war mongers that ruined a nation and polluted the world.

Many nations believe we'd deserve it. No matter what happens to us. Who will they side with? Leaders like Chavez. Just like with Cindy; once the lines are drawn and there IS a rallying cry against Bush, it grows and grows. Those that used to be our allies, even nations not much better than us, in terms of governmental abuse of power and human rights will side with opposition, when they realize being our ally is more dangerous than not, and not popular to boot.

[Dhalgren]

30. Very interesting reply. You cover much good ground.

We find ourselves in the position of needing every nation to make the distinction between our usurper government and the citizens who oppose it. But how much effort they will put into that will definitely depend upon their own situations. I just hope that when the wars start in ernest, the nations of the world will act as our liberators and not our exterminators. I hope that they will try very hard to contact the resistance here, and not just "let god sort us out"...

[whatever4]

33. Thanks, I hope so too

But it's a small, pitiful hope. I think it's going to be us Americans and us alone that gets us through this, but I get confused in what "this" is. It can be strife for us, for which we may or may not have help from other nations. But if other nations attack us, militarily or economically, I think we'll be on our own to deal with it. Thanks for your kind comment, but I realize how generalized and high-level my understanding is; it's just good enough to let me know we aren't popular, that this idiot president is attacking someone that he shouldn't, at a time he shouldn't, and in a situation "we" can't win. 's all I know. Dumber than a box of rocks; this admin makes the likes of ME look like a political scientist and economic theorist, and that's REALLY scary.

[Dhalgren]

37. LOL!

"this admin makes the likes of ME look like a political scientist and economic theorist, and that's REALLY scary." I'm with you there. Me too. If we can at least get our children through this mess alive, it will be an accomplishment that I will be willing to settle for.

[whatever4]

57. I'm all in with you on that one

I sometimes...okay frequently, have trouble even explaining to my kids what's going on, in politics, with the war, with oil futures, all of it. And it's not like I'm an expert, so I guess to them it sounds pretty silly. Sometimes, when they spout popular beliefs back at me, it's like dealing with little, silly, neocons. NO dear, the war is BAD. No, it wasn't to save the Iraqi people. It was about oil. Our president is a very wealthy oil man, and in fact, the whole war was probably about oil.

It's a hard concept, while they're busy learning stuff in school.

School. Groan. School function at a church, and it was a band thing, class participation required going to the church, so I couldn't exactly boycott it. Or at least, I didn't, that time. Church has a big pin up board. On it are flyers, and their serious subject matter is the story of a father extremely upset because his kid learned about gay parents in school. The school had the audacity to mention real, living homosexual people, with kids, in front of his son. Those were the only flyers on the board.

Where the school sends my kid for educational activities ...cares only about homosexuality and it's being "wrong". Period.

State sponsored religion? Or just the next best thing?

But for all that, for my concerns about it, I'm the odd man out. Wow. I feel like a genius in this climate. It just isn't right. REally hard to explain to my kids, it starts sounding like it's all "us verses them", and it isn't healthy at all. But it's true.

I just have to sit back and tell them, hey, I didn't make the rules, and it's definitely NOT my fault all this stuff is going on, just for talking about it. Talking about politics as if it matters. Don't kill the messenger. I didn't just dream this stuff up.

But it's like you said, to wind up this rant (when will I stop?!) getting our kids through it is the only priority, at this point. I just have a hard time preparing them for it. Hard time explaining it, telling them what to expect, except that it will be bad. It sounds WAY like Chicken Little. But, if I wait until things are well and truly nuts to talk about stuff, they'd be even more lost. When it all happens. Have to see danger coming to best avoid it. I want to give them fair warning. What if I'm not around in 5 years? It's very hard to explain the world to them, and to warn them about it.

[thecrow]

2. I remember Castro offering to send us doctors awhile back too..

[murray hill farm]

10. and the benefit of Cuban medical research & medicine...

all rejected by the govt of the usa...a few years ago, Castro offered to "give" the usa the medicine to treat those with limes disease..and other mosquito born deseases that were beginning to appear in the usa..since Cuba has had this medicine for many years...but his offer was rejected...and u never read that in any news report.

[getmeouttahere]

14. Right...God forbid anyone would get free healthcare!

health care is a right, not a privilege.

[Mika]

40. No such thing as "free health care".

Someone has to do the heavy lifting to provide it.

In Cuba it isn't just Castro. In Ven it isn't just Chavez.

It is the dedicated Cuban (and Ven) doctors, researchers, and teachers that do it. All citizens share the burden of the costs.

Been there. Seen it.

Its just TOO easy to place all of the blame and/or accolades on one person, but it just isn't that way.



Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

“What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.

No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. Cubans worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books



Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system. Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.







Viva Cuba! Viva Venezuela!

[getmeouttahere]

46. It doesn't have to be about communism, either!

If we wanted to, if we had our priorities straight, we could do all of this, and better, given our considerable resources. Or at least the resources we had before BushCo came along.

But the RW has always been able to convince Americans that anything like universal h-c or education is communistic. But non-communist countries are doing this all over the world. So then the RW says, well, they are socialists, and socialism and communism are one in the same to RWers.

[Mika]

64. True dat.

Never said that it did.

But, Cuba has done a LOT with so little because the Cuban professionals have done some dedicated heavy lifting, and the Cuban people have done some sacrificing for the benefit of all (especially their children).

Nowhere is health care free.

[getmeouttahere]

68. I think you misunderstood...

I was stating that it doesn't have to be about communism in reference to conservatives who want to privatize everything and want to lump socialism with communism.

[benito]

3. My eyes!

Can I believe my eyes?

[fasttense]

4. Chavez seems to show more Christian charity than Pat Robertson does.

Chavez's response is to offer help for poor US citizens. Pat Robertson's response is to offer murder. Now which one of these leaders would I follow????

[rodeodance]

5. he has tapped into a big problem in the US--that of poverty and now

raising energy prices. Cool move--one that many want to hide--.
Reminds me of when Reagen said--There is no hunger in America.

[getmeouttahere]

6. Now let's see if any of the community leaders...

here in the states have the guts to work with Chavez to implement what he is proposing. Or will BushCo squelch it?

[rodeodance]

8. Bushco is doing its best to brand him as a wachco Lefty--name

calling is their hightest trait.

[rodeodance]

9. nominated.

[rodeodance]

11. one thing Robertson has done is to put Venezuela on the radar. Yes,

there has been an article or two this last month--but the whole thing with oil and our relationship with this country has not been discussed a all.

[peacetalksforall]

7. If left to PNAC and the cabal, Venezuela and Cuba will be

restructured with astronomical hospital and pharmaceutical liabilities, their infrastructure will be decimated, their oil will be sucked up for their PNAC friends, they will be dumbed down, there will be a thriving new prison system, they will be bombarded with Halliburton 'consultants', and they will convert to theocracies.

[DawnneOBTS]

12. Maybe the offer for cheap oil and medical aid...

...led Robertson to make his statement. After all, do you think that Robertson wants medical care for our poor citizens? Or, do you think that Robertson wants cheap oil sold here, causing BushCo to lose money? Come on, that's all he's about is $$$, not God.

[getmeouttahere]

13. Certainly good points about Robertson....

and his motives, but Chavez' statement came after Robertson's hideous comments.

[Justitia]

16. Is anyone else seriously relieved that Chavez separates "us" from Bush?

In every stmt I have seen him make, as well as those from other Venezuelans and their embassy / ambassador, etc., they are always very careful to make the distinction between us and our maladministration.

They always take the time to say nice things about the American people and recognize the moral support we give them, their country and their DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED gov't.

I am so grateful for this!

I have also heard Chirac (France) make these careful distinctions before too and felt relieved.

Please fellow world citizens - don't forget we don't want him (Bush) either! We didn't elect him and we're trying as best as we can to get him out of our White House!

[getmeouttahere]

19. Good of you to point that out....

it's a nice gesture on their part, if nothing else

[Justitia]

27. In the long run, it will help repair our relations w/the wider world

My best friend is from Italy. Whenever I experience great shame at the things this administration does and convey my worry to her that we are alienating ourselves from the rest of the planet, she reassures me.

She tells me to remember that we are a very young country and are just now experiencing "our" dictators, and that on a deeper level the "older" world will understand our emotional turmoil over our "leaders". She reminds me that most other countries have their own long experience of dictators to apologize for. She says "we had Mussolini for God's sake!" I am always so relieved to think the rest of the world might tell the difference between us and the Bush administration.

Although, with our long history of violent meddling in South & Central America, I wonder how they could ever forgive us.....

[getmeouttahere]

44. Yes, that part is what might be different....

from the older countries and their dicators. We have had the School of the Americas and the CIA torturing and murdering for decades.

[Justitia]

47. Yes, the School of the Americas - ouch. I once thought "America"

was much too noble and just for such things.
We are better than that, we are Americans.

Then, I learned all about the School of the Americas, and the Myth of American Exceptionalism vaporized from my young, naive mind.

[getmeouttahere]

54. And it's a shame that had to happen...

but the atrocities are too much for some of us to stomach. Brian Wilson had a song back in the 60's called "I just wasn't made for these times" and my version of that would be "I'm just not made for this country" especially right now.

[Justitia]

56. I hear you. I go from reading & absorbing everything I can, to pushing

away in disgust and shame overload.

Good people of conscience will always struggle with this.

For my own small part, I just try to lead others to the info, in small bits, opening their minds and eyes without clubbing them over the head or overloading them.

Maybe, just maybe, they will remember these tidbits the next time our "noble gov't" tries to lead them down the garden path.

Otherwise, ignorance is bliss and atrocities go on in the dark.

But God, sometimes we just have to break free from it too!

[babylonsister]

17. Nom., to show what a hack Robertson is compared to

Chavez. Who's showing their Christian values now?

[nickshepDEM]

18. Typical Chavez babble.

Put your money where your mouth is.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[welshTerrier2]

22. even if ...

even if Chavez did not back up his words with funding, what he highlighted about the US failure to ensure that poor citizens have access to healthcare in this country is highly commendable ...

your attitude is not ...

[nickshepDEM]

23. Why not packup and head to Venezuela then?

Chavez should take that plank out of his eye before he points out the speck of sawdust in someone else's.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nickshepDEM]

26. LOL. I find that rather funny. I supported Edwards in 2004.

All I basically said in my first post was, Ill believe it when I see it.

[nickshepDEM]

63. 17% Unemployment rate and 47% living in poverty...

IN VENEZUELA

[SoCalifer]

85. And just how much of that poverty

do you think is as a result of U.S. actions as described in the "confessions of an economic hit-man"?

[On the Road]

91. Sorry, But Venezuela Does Not Have the Gross Poverty

of Brazil, Chile, or most other Latin American nations. I've been to the poor areas of Caracas and other cities. I've seen how the people live and how much they support Chavez. He is doing a ton for the ordinary people of that country.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nickshepDEM]

36. Lookup the poverty rates in Venezuela.

Compare them to the U.S. and then re-think your post. My post makes perfect sense. Chavez has problems of his own. Deal with them and then maybe think about "aid" to the U.S. Or like I said, if its so great in Venezuela, packup and head on down.

[Justitia]

38. Why don't we give Chavez a tiny bit of time to work on it?

He's hardly been there and has spent most of his time trying to keep foreign meddlers from kidnapping him (hint: that's us).

Why don't you reserve judgment until the man has had time to work unimpeded by the threat of violent coups?

[nickshepDEM]

59. He's had his time...

Their GDP dropped 8.9% in 2002 and 9.2% in 2003. Unemployment is 17% and 47% of the population lives below the poverty line.

Since Chavez took office, GDP has fallen from $182 B to $118 B. In the late 90s before Chavez came to power, GDP grew slowly, but it actually grew.

[Justitia]

72. How about a link so I can enlighten myself as to your source?

I find Chavez to be a welcome change to those that preceded him, but I sense you are not willing to consider him the same way.

Do you prefer the pre-Chavez gov'ts of Venezuela to what he is doing now?

[nickshepDEM]

75. I dont hate Chavez, but I dont believe we should glorify him as this...

perfect leader.

[Justitia]

79. I don't think anyone is doing that. He's just a breath of fresh air for

many. And a lot of us like to encourage change in that very direction. I think you are seeing enthusiasm for a different way of thinking and acting towards your own people and the rest of the world.

Not to mention, a lot of us are perfectly horrified over the lengths our own gov't has gone to to remove Hugo Chavez from power in his own country. I suspect some of our enthusiasm of Chavez is in response to our disgust over how this administration is treating him.

Additionally, we (the collective USofA) have a LONG and brutal history of interfering with the gov'ts of Central & South America, and I wouldn't hesitate to say that we bear a good measure of responsibility for the disastrous regimes that have created the situations they have today.

[getmeouttahere]

97. Couldn't have said it better myself, Justitia!

And I did read your other post, where you responded to my mini-rant about how awful things are.

[Justitia]

99. thanks!

:hi:

[converted_democrat]

103. Yea, Lord forbid people have a leader that actually cares about them...

What gives dude? You keep sticking to talking points that have little if anything to do with what we are discussing. What's up?

[magnetism]

81. hasn't he been there

since 1998?

[Justitia]

98. Since Feb '99, and fighting off the US RW coups since 2000 -eom

[1932]

39. What's the threshold which Venezuela needs to cross before Chavez

can talk about wealth inequality and polarization in the US?

[nickshepDEM]

65. Possibly get his unemployment in the single digits. Its currently 17%.

And improve on his abysmal poverty levels (47%).

[1932]

86. 80% to 47% is an improvement.

And unemployment is down since the opposition-organized strikes in 2003.

[1932]

95. It looks like your # is from RW Strike-induced peak in '03. In 6/05: 11.8%

So we're rapidly moving towards all your thresholds at which Chavez is allowed to have opinions.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1695

[getmeouttahere]

41. He IS addressing the poverty in his country!

Your post does NOT make perfect sense because your original post was simply "put your money where your mouth is" and once again I state that Chavez doesn't have to do anything for anyone here in the U.S. If we can't take care of our own, with our considerable resources, we certainly shouldn't expect anyone to do it for us. Which is probably what the point of all this is. Or it should be.

[1932]

43. I disagree with one point you make:

Chavez should be talking about people in the US.

The incredible polarization of wealth in the US, our drive for empire to further that polarization in the US and everywher, and the greedy values that undergird that drive are destabilizing for the whole world.

It's in Venezuela's interest, and the interest of the rest of the world, to talk about doing things which reduce the huge gaps in opportunity, happiness, and wealth in the US. If you're trying to reduce the polarization of wealth anywhere in the world, it makes sense to talk about it in the US.

[getmeouttahere]

48. Agreed, but talking about it and doing something about...

are two very different things. Given our powerful position in the world, and vast resources, it should be up to us to do something about our problems. To me, it's like asking someone to help Mike Tyson win a boxing match (for those who are fans of Chris Rock, you might recognize that analogy).

[1932]

51. Venezuela already sells gas to US.

So saying that they'll channel it to impoverished communties at a discount isn't really something that undermines our ability to take care of ourselves since it would be just a slight variation on what they're already doing (they're doing us a huge favor by selling us gas at any price!).

Also, doesn't Libya donate oil money to community groups in impoverished black neighborhoods? Is that a bad thing?

I'm sure the people in America suffering from our wealth-polarizing domestic policies don't feel like Mike Tyson.

[getmeouttahere]

55. Nothing Libya or anyone does is a bad thing...

EXPECTING it is, in my opinion. What I will say is that some of the same people who need this assistance vote for BushCo. I never want to see any child go hungry, but the poverty problems in the 3rd world are much more dire than those of the U.S. My sponsored child in Cameroon must fend off disease and hunger every single day of her life, while living in what would generally be considered squalid conditions. There are very, very few poor in the U.S. that are living under those kinds of conditions.

[nickshepDEM]

60. Really?

Their GDP dropped 8.9% in 2002 and 9.2% in 2003. Unemployment is 17% and 47% of the population lives below the poverty line.

Since Chavez took office, GDP has fallen from $182 B to $118 B. In the late 90s before Chavez came to power, GDP grew slowly, but it actually grew.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nickshepDEM]

70. Former Freep. I love it. Everytime I bust someone.

I get accused of being a Republican. Just because I dont fall lockstep in line with the left does not make me a Republican.

[getmeouttahere]

74. I would vote for a Green before I would vote for most of

the Dems out there right now, so no lockstep here. But throwing around economic indicators when we're talking about a 3rd world country with poverty issues doesn't exactly sound like democratic thinking.

[nickshepDEM]

76. I pointed out the unemployment and poverty rates too.

Did you miss that? 17% Unemployment is horrible and 47% living in poverty is abysmal.

[rman]

78. How did Venezuela get so many poor to begin with?

It was caused by the rule of the corporate elite.
Poverty in Venezuela has been declining ever since Chavez was elected.

[getmeouttahere]

94. Abysmal compared to what?

before Chavez they had 80% below the poverty line and 17% in a 3rd world country compares quite favorably to at least some other Latin Am countries, if not all of the 3rd world.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nickshepDEM]

106. LOL. Thanks.

:)

[converted_democrat]

49. That is one of the most childish replies I've ever read on DU, to date.

Perhaps you should know that the poor love Chavez, and the rich absolutely hate him. He has created wonderful programs for the poor that let them have a higher education, and make sure they have access to medical care. Given what he was given to work with Chavez has done a great job. I don't agree with everything the man has done, but that is either here nor there. It sickens me when I see people actively drinking the kool-aid, believing the propaganda smear machine of the right-wing, just because they don't want to take the time to look up some info on their own.


edit--for my awful grammer

[nickshepDEM]

61. Check this out...

Their GDP dropped 8.9% in 2002 and 9.2% in 2003. Unemployment is 17% and 47% of the population lives below the poverty line.

Since Chavez took office, GDP has fallen from $182 B to $118 B. In the late 90s before Chavez came to power, GDP grew slowly, but it actually grew.

[converted_democrat]

69. And your point is???

How much has the GDP fallen in the U.S. over the course of the last few years? Your talking about ONE economic indicator. Give the man a chance, he had very little to work with, and is doing good things. He's rebuilding a freaking country for lands sake. I agree the unemployment is high, but he is ADDRESSING those issues and some of the plan will take years to bear fruit.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

115. Is there a tape loop at work here?

:shrug:

I challenge you to read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" (currently in bookstores) and then tell me that the Third World leaders who challenge U.S. domination are so terrible.

[HeeBGBz]

52. If I could get there, I would

I've been impressed with how Chavez treats his people for a while now.

[nickshepDEM]

62. Are you impressed by this?

Their GDP dropped 8.9% in 2002 and 9.2% in 2003. Unemployment is 17% and 47% of the population lives below the poverty line.

Since Chavez took office, GDP has fallen from $182 B to $118 B. In the late 90s before Chavez came to power, GDP grew slowly, but it actually grew.

[getmeouttahere]

71. Does GDP reflect how a society takes care of those...

who never find a job? There is no such thing as full employment, but at least in countries with a social safety net, if you can't find work for an extended period, you know you won't lose your home because the benefits stopped.

[converted_democrat]

73. Is this the ONLY info you have about Venezuela???

Just wondering.




edit- to be nicer.

[loudsue]

80. Nick...whose figures are those? Your own? You haven't provided

a link to that.

I'd also like to point out....OUR nation is currently stating that OUR unemployment rate is around 5%. That's not just bullshit, that is INTENTIONALLY IGNORANT bullshit! That 5% leaves out a few million people that have been out of work so long, they don't even COUNT in the statistics. That 5% also leaves out the engineers and IT people, teachers, and formerly unionized factory workers, who made a living wage, who are all now scrambling to land a job at WalMart, as one of two low-level jobs they try to hold.

You have posted and reposted those ridiculous GDP figures about 6 times so far, and you still haven't got a clue what you're talking about, as far as what is REALLY happening in Venezuela. The entire economy is being rebuilt from the ground up, and they also have a very right wing press that is trying to undermine Chavez. My guess is, THEY are the ones who put out the statistics you're quoting.

Chavez is the first time in decades that the people of Venezuela have had hope for a better future, that wouldn't leave the poorest people behind.

:kick:

[nickshepDEM]

87. My point is...

First, Venezulea is in no position to provide its own poor with a decent standard of living, let alone send charity to the US (not that I believe anyone actually thought this was possible) as Chavez suggested in this statement. Second, Chavez has overseen a terrible recession that occured during rising oil demand--oil is about 80% of their economy. That points to some severe mis-management.

[1932]

93. But they are imporving the standard of living for a majority of the people

and they do America a huge service already just by selling us any gas at any price. Without them, we'd be paying even more for oil.

And that terrible recession was caused by OPPOSITION (RIGHT WING) STRIKES.

[nickshepDEM]

90. Source...

The CIA World Factbook for current numbers. I googled for the historical data.

[converted_democrat]

104. Link????? n/t

[HeeBGBz]

83. More impressed by this

Revolution on Venezuela's estates

VENEZUELA: Nutritious food a ‘basic human right’

Venezuela and Cuba Include US Poor in Eyesight Program

Venezuela and Uruguay Strengthening Economic Cooperation

[1932]

92. John Perkins, author of Confessions of an Economic Hit Man, says about GDP

that it masks the problem of wealth distribution.

You can make GDP rise by making the wealthy wealthier. That doesn't mean that things are better for a majority of the people. He also implies that you'll be better off long term for everyone if you make people at the bottom better off even if, in the short term, it means the wealthy don't get to enjoy extreme wealth.

[getmeouttahere]

96. Thank you, 1932...

nice to know someone's got our backs here.

[NMDemDist2]

111. you keep posting this so I did a little research

Venezuela 2nd-Qtr GDP Grows 11.1% as Oil Prices Climb (Update1)

Aug. 18 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuela's economy grew for a seventh straight quarter in the April-June period as record high oil prices fueled government spending and consumer purchases.

Gross domestic product, the broadest measure of a country's production of goods and services, expanded 11.1 percent in the second quarter from the year-earlier period after growing 7.5 percent in the first quarter, a central bank report said.

Consumer demand has soared as President Hugo Chavez takes advantage of a jump in international oil prices to boost government spending by almost 40 percent this year. ......

snip....``During the second quarter, there was an extension of the process of economic reactivation that started in the final quarter of 2003,'' the central bank said.

The economy rebounded in 2004 from contractions of 8.9 percent in 2002 and 7.7 percent in 2003, when a two-month nationwide strike aimed at ousting Chavez throttled oil output. Chavez, who led a failed coup attempt when he was in the Army in 1992, also defeated a recall vote last year.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&refer=latin_america&sid=a7O_SMdV2vZk

[1932]

119. Detractors like to measure only up to 2003.

That's why they organized the strikes -- to create an argument against Chavez.

What they ignore is that the strikes didn't end Chavez's presidency, and that Chavez has put Venezuela back on a track for growth.

That's why nickshepDEM's stats end at 2003.

[rman]

29. "typical"? - got any examples?

[rman]

77. I DIDN'T THINK SO

[converted_democrat]

35. WTF?? n/t

[Dr.Phool]

24. Another nomination

Chavez knows what he's talking about. The administration and the oil companies hate him for raising the oil royalties, so he can finance education and health care for his own citizens. Wouldn't it be nice if our country would do that instead of supporting the bloodsuckers all the time?

[rman]

31. first cheap gas for the poor, now medical aid

Reuters: Chavez offers cheap gas to poor in U.S
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1722617&mesg_id=1722617

[Peace Patriot]

101. This is such a fabulous idea! And I hope people take him up on it!

If Chavez undercuts the Bush Cartel's filthy, rotten, war profiteering gas prices, he'll have the entire population of the U.S. lining up at Citgo stations! What beautiful payback!

I'm thinking: THE PEOPLES' GAS STATIONS. New Citgo's springing up everywhere! People might even donate a nickel back to beef up Chavez's personal security team, as insurance that we will continue to get Venezuela's generous lower gas prices.

This could be great! What about it, you entrepreneurial types? Ideas how to do it?

[Toots]

32. help with the well-being and health of the American people.

The entire purpose of our Government is to maintain the Health and Welfare of the Nation. Apparently it is not doing the job because another government is offering to do what our government will not do. Neither will the Christian fundamentalists here like Falwell or Robertson. All they wish to do is incite people. Chavez is definitely going down in history as a true man of the people in a world that only cares for money and power.

[meganmonkey]

34. This shit is cracking me up!!!

:rofl:

I love every second of it.

This 'commie pinko bastard' is pointing out OUR poverty and OUR energy problems and offering to help - and our gov't has NO IDEA how to react. Even if it is just posturing it's fucking brilliant.

VIVA CHAVEZ!!!!

[getmeouttahere]

42. Isn't it GRAND, meganmonkey?

I'm getting as much pleasure from this as you are!

Viva Chavez!

www.handsoffvenezuela.org

[IndyOp]

45. Don't forget: BUY YOUR GAS AT CITGO!

Profits from Citgo gas go to the people of Venezuala & maybe, soon, to the people of the US (thanks to Chavez!)

Oil profits to the people: Citgo!

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4440384>

[HeeBGBz]

50. Where do I sign up? Willing to relocate...

I'm so freakin serious here.

[ClayZ]

82. Mass Exodus to Venezuela!

:kick: :kick:


Viva Chavez!

[Ian_rd]

53. HAAAAAAAAHAAHAHAHAHA! (nt)

[jokerman93]

58. What a savvy politician!

See how he's framed the debate? American leadership is missing in action, and George Bush is a punk. I love this guy!

And oh yeah...how much more irrelevant can this Pat Robertson blowhard get?

[Gregorian]

67. Exhibit A- How "Love they enemy" works.

Any doubters out there? This is the proof. The more he does this, the worse is makes the administration look. It legitimizes Chavez.

[McCamy Taylor]

84. Chavez is uber-cool, like Cindy Sheehan.

[KingFlorez]

88. If that's not Pro-American

I don't know what is

[windbreeze]

89. The way I see this...

and I have read everything posted here...is that Chavez is pointing out to us...the failures of OUR gov't..in regards to it's own people...while at the same time, responding brilliantly to a very prominent RELIGIOUS RIGHT EXTREMIST leader of OURS, that called for him (Chavez) to be assassinated...
As for the numbers of poor people in this country...anyone live in a city? do you see those people standing on street corners, or sleeping in the streets, they're poor and most likely medically unfit to hold any job, that is if there were any. Anyone visited Appalachia recently? We do have our poor...in far larger numbers than we care to see...and there are more of us every day...
My husband wants to retire next year...do you know what it's going to cost us to keep our health insurance? $700 a month...$700!!! while we try to survive on SS...so we have a choice, it's keep health insurance and starve...or eat and have no insurance...in this country? What's wrong with that picture?
I have a neighbor with lung cancer, from asbestos......he's on medicaid...and SS...recently thrown completely out of the medical system, and the Dr. he was seeing won't even return their calls...hasn't had chemo for 3 months now, because he can't come up with $330 a WEEK...the amount HE has to pay, out of HIS pocket for the treatments, which his entire SS check wouldn't cover...oh, and...all those companies he worked for...BUSH has protected from law suits...so the money he thought he could count on for his wife, after he passes...and the hope it brought, is GONE...so even though he worked and paid taxes all his life...and served in the military...now in HIS time of need...there is nothing, no HOPE...and no help...but we can spend BILLIONS killing our own young, and innocent people of another country, who did nothing to us..
Yes, Chavez made a point...a very clear point...and I believe that was exactly what he intended to do..and perhaps IF this country would leave him alone...HE would have accomplished a whole lot more for HIS people, by now...money/effort/time he's spent defending himself from our intimidation tactics, could well have gone to benefitting his own people...
windbreeze

[getmeouttahere]

100. A great big BRAVO to you, windbreeze!!!

My heart aches for your neighbors who are suffering. It's totally unconscionable that in a country of our vast resources, that people would have to live (or not live) like that.

[Peace Patriot]

102. Would that our War Democrats and our pro-corporate-global-

-predator Democrats, and our cowardly Democrats, and our SILENT Democrats, take a cue from Hugo Chavez and straighten their heads out, and clear their minds, and relocate their hearts, and decide who's side they are on, and reconnect with the progressive and humanistic traditions of their own party, and START ADVOCATING FOR THE PEOPLE in the strong but peaceful way that Chavez is doing it, by simply pointing out the TRUTH!

[getmeouttahere]

107. That's it, Peace Patriot...Dems definitely need to take a cue..

from Chavez and stand up for what's right. Like Ted Kennedy says, the last thing we need in this country is 2 repub parties.

[mmonk]

108. Imagine seeing those offers

in the mainstream broadcast media.

[getmeouttahere]

109. I know you won't hold your breath for it!

they'll be busy instead working overtime to demonize Chavez, per BushCo's instructions.

[mtnester]

110. SLAP!

nuff said

[tsuki]

112. What a smackdown!

[Cha]

113. This is really nice and

I'm sure the bushwa is thinking of new ways to "take him out"..(Jeez patrobertson, thanks for the publicity!).

[Lefty48197]

114. He should open a chain of gas stations in the USA

He sells oil to Cuba so cheaply that they pay about 15 cents for a gallon of gas. But of course, their leader didn't try to overthrow him, so I guess there are consequences for certain actions.

[Solon]

116. Has about 14,000 of them here in this country...

Its called Citgo, a wholly owned subsidary of their PUBLIC oil company.

[FourStarDemocrat]

118. Venezuala has a chain of gas stations in the US: CITGO gas. n/t

[mom cat]

117. Jesus cared about poor folks too...and they assassinated him....

Says a lot about rich, entitled so called religious folk.