Centrists and conservative Democrats deserve a seat at the table.

[Writer]

Let us keep our party together and well-rounded. As the poll numbers drop, our chances for an '06 victory will improve!

We need a well-rounded party to do so! Let's not move to one corner and alienate our centrists... much like another party we know about.

Let's fight together!

[Celeborn Skywalker]

1. Agreed. (nt)

[rockymountaindem]

2. I agree as well.

n/t

[Telly Savalas]

3. I like 'em at the table, I just don't want 'em telling us what to eat.

[Writer]

4. I think that's a fair request.

We can disagree yet be united in purpose.

[TankLV]

5. I wish they'd STOP telling us what to eat.

So far I haven't seen any of that.

I wouldn't want to eat at such a table.

If THEY showed US some respect - which THEY don't - then maybe we could do the same.

I don't see it happening.

THEIR continued process of trying to villify US has not ceased.

[Writer]

6. It takes two.

Liberal, centrist, and even conservative Dems alike all voted the same way in 2004.

We do have a common cause.

[Eloriel]

61. They could start by standing up to the DLC when it trashes us

Huh? That'd be a GOOD place to start.

[Pepperbelly]

89. I agree ...

They have been enormously abrasive and off-putting of late. I had no problem with them pushing their ideas, some of which I agree with, some I do not but this tactic of shitting on party members with whom they disagree sucks.

They should be ashamed of themselves.

[mitchum]

116. Beautifully said, Telly

I love ya, baby

[Emendator]

120. Eat your veggies

and fish. Add just a bit of olive oil. And don't forget a glass of wine everyday. You'll be good to go.

[greendog]

7. The big table under the big tent...

...plenty of room for all the Bidens and Bayhs, their corporate sponsors and the "big tent team" of PR specialists.

If we're lucky, the smiling bastards will send us a picture.

No thanks.

[Writer]

9. So... you're suggesting that we limit our party membership

and not include these people in our party?

[AtomicKitten]

37. Um,

I don't think he/she's in our party.

[greendog]

38. That's exactly what I'm suggesting!

We need to get rid of the corporate extremists (who call themselves centrists, moderates, or conservatives).

These are the people who have supported the free trade scams that are destroying the economy for ordinary working people. The working people never asked for this shit. It just got shoved down our throats.

These are the people who continue to support the Iraq war against the better judgment of a majority of Americans.

These are the people that support the price gouging of the big drug and insurance companies.

When we support them, we get knifed in the back. Personally, I don't think "their" interests have any place in "our" party.

[longship]

8. Hate the DLC; but Love UNITY.

A political party is not a fraternity where members are screened for looks, philosophy, or whatever. Everybody is welcome. That is what sets us apart from the Repugs who seem to be intent on purity of thought.

When I was an activist in Kansas, there were Democrats of all stripes. We got along and worked together very well in spite of our differences. We were quite successful in putting Dems into office. Ideology just isn't important. The only thing that is, is the big D after the name.

[wli]

10. I'm sick of the endless march to the right. n/t

[Writer]

11. Well, then you have a decision to make.

1) Alienate centrist and conservative members and limit your party's scope, or

2) Break off from the Democratic Party and form a limited party of your own.

If you can't tolerate having these views in your party, which shall it be?

[wli]

12. The rethugs don't tolerate us for an instant...

Yet every time we respond to their naked aggression against us (with the DLC it's getting rarer), we're told we have to tolerate it.

Enough is enough. There is no such thing as a "conservative Democrat." Moles are not welcome. They can be Republicans elsewhere instead of infiltrating and undermining our political party with no better cover story than "I call myself a Democrat."

[Writer]

13. So you've chosen to alienate centrist and conservative Democrats.

by disavowing that conservative (and I suppose centrist) Democrats don't exist and by labeling those of that ideology as moles. You decided, then, to limit the scope of the party platform to include only more liberal views.

Your party has just shrunk. Is this the path you choose?

[wli]

21. just replace them with Paul Hackett -like people n/t

[Writer]

24. Well... okay.

Fight for the candidates you like. There's nothing wrong with that!

[Dr Fate]

26. Bullseye- its not about moving right or left- its about FIGHTING

I dont mind moderates at all- so long as they are not kissing Bush's ass.

Moderates who cant speak out against Bush on the big issues wont impress anyone in '06.

[OzarkDem]

78. They may not be good at policy

but they're good at framing the issue - Dems who oppose the war are intolerant radical liberals.

If these people truly represent the DLC, well, I feel sorry for the DLC, its days are definitely numbered. Its backing itself into a corner.

[Andromeda]

82. Paul Hackett and Howard Dean....

Both are moderate and both tell it like it is. I'm in love with both of them.:loveya:

You can be a moderate, or centrist, whatever you want to call it and still be a good Democrat. You can be a leftie and be a good Democrat too as long as you stop trying to have everything your own way.

A "my way or the highway" attitude means that you're cutting out everybody else except your own group.

We all need to compromise because the Democratic party has a big tent and there is room for many voices.

I've gotten pretty disillusioned with the DLC because they're just nuts. They don't want to include any voices but their own. The grassroots is just not important to them and that's wrong.

[Raksha]

64. Centrist...MAYBE.

It just depends on whether they've been bought out or not. But I agree with the poster who said there is no such thing as a conservative Democrat, with the possible exception of a few leftover Dixiecrats. If they're really conservatives, they should be in the other party so at least we KNOW what we're dealing with. But in most cases, "Conservative Democrat" = Republican Mole.

[Hidden Stillness]

20. Well, That Didn't Last Long...

Let me get this straight: You were barely able to get to your reply #11 of this plea for conservatives to be accepted in the Party, (now that the iron fist of the "D"LC has alienated us all), and you are already kicking people out? "You have a decision to make," "Break off from the Democratic Party and form a limited Party of your own," "If you can't tolerate..., which shall it be?"--ALREADY?? Apparently, we are already at the limit of the "new" "D"LC's "big tent tolerance," too.

[Writer]

23. Actually it's quite the opposite.

I think liberals are a vital part of the Democratic party. I think they're the soul of our party. But I think everyone else deserves a say, as well.

Ask the poster whether or not he/she wants centrist and conservative Dems in the party, and see what kind of response you'll get.

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OzarkDem]

77. False choices - No decisions to make

The DLC and its march to the right are not representative of conservative Dem public policy.

In fact, I'd venture to guess that most of the people on this forum promoting the DLC are actually Republicans.

Its fairly obvious what's going on and its becoming less and less effective.

[Mythsaje]

14. The irony of it

is that I started out thinking of myself as a centrist or a moderate. But I'm also a populist. I believe the will of the people (an educated people, but that's another question entirely) trumps the will of the corporations. I also think it trumps the will of the bureaucrats and lawmakers, for that matter. I think it's the DLC that has contributed to the apathy and disgust many average voters feel toward the system...they see the two parties as being more or less the same thing, and I blame the corporate-controlled DLC folks the most for that.

You know the ones I mean...the ones who voted for the Bankruptcy Bill that protects corporations from the common man and woman, and who will probably vote for the so-called "Tort Reform" that will protect the corporations again from the common citizen and eliminate our most basic protections against their corruption and malfeasance.

So, yeah, we can all sit at the same table. But I'll use a long spoon.

[Writer]

16. Fair enough.

They'll probably eat with a long spoon, too. But you'll still be seated together.

[unlawflcombatnt]

I completely agree

I used to think I was a centrist as well. But I am defintely more of a populist. And I disagree with much of what the alleged "centrist" DLC stands for. They are not advocates for the middle class or for the American worker. They are more hawkish than many Republicans. They actually think going into Iraq was the right thing to do.

They may well represent Corporate America better than the Republicans. They demonstrate typical rich, elitist concerns. Their concern about terrorism and military might is much greater than their concern about our economy, loss of jobs, and lowering of wages. What else would we expect, since none of them have to worry about losing jobs or making ends meet?

They're support of globalism and "free-slave" agreements is sickening. I'd have to use a real long spoon to sit at that table.

[unlawflcombatnt]

122. I completely agree

I used to think I was a centrist as well. But I am defintely more of a populist. And I disagree with much of what the alleged "centrist" DLC stands for. They are not advocates for the middle class or for the American worker. They are more hawkish than many Republicans. They actually think going into Iraq was the right thing to do.

They may well represent Corporate America better than the Republicans. They demonstrate typical rich, elitist concerns. Their concern about terrorism and military might is much greater than their concern about our economy, loss of jobs, and lowering of wages. What else would we expect, since none of them have to worry about losing jobs or making ends meet?

They're support of globalism and "free-slave" agreements is sickening. I'd have to use a real long spoon to sit at that table.

[nickshepDEM]

15. It may be too late for that. At least on this site anyway.

I consider myself to be a moderate/centrist Democrat (Im center-right social issues and left on economic issues). When I refuse to fall lockstep in line with the left I am called a "closet freeper", "republican lite", "neo-con". Ive even been called a "jew" and "born again" in one post.

[Writer]

17. I'm sorry to hear that.

I've been called similar things, being a centrist myself. But please don't feel like you're alone on DU. You have many, many friends who feel the same as you do! :)

[nickshepDEM]

18. I try not to let it get to me, but it can be annoying at times.

[Writer]

19. Don't let it begin to bother you.

Those posting represent only a small percentage of the small percentage of truly active Democrats. If you went to the national convention in 2008, donned a Dem hat and supported the presidential nominee, they wouldn't be able to decipher you from the rest of the Democrats present, now, would they?

[madfloridian]

29. It is never too late.

However, their goals are meant for corporate benefit to the exclusion of unions and minorities, and even majorities at times.

[ElectroPrincess]

31. I'm having a hard time believing such ...

Wow, got both the "freeper" and the "jew" calling for sympathy?

Perhaps it's a coincidence that the DLC patterns all it's strategy from Rove's play books?

Like Bushler has used all his 9-11 points, the Pro-Corporate forces can no longer extract knee-jerk sympathy for "pulling out of their hat" ... they hate us because of our religion.

Wow, Pat Roberson and all those other Right Wing Ghouls, need to have a seminar with the DLC. They could learn from each other how to be even more duplicitous as well as disingenuous.

Writer, was there a memo from the DLC asking you folks to "raise up some dust" or are you just feeling frisky (wanting to provoke discontent within the ranks and kick us NASTY leftists out)?

Which is it this time (rise in thread starting by KNOWN DLC promoters)?

[Brightmore]

63. It's amazing that "Jew" is used as an insult still

So sad.

[Andromeda]

88. Yes, it is sad.

n/t

[OzarkDem]

73. Which particular issues?

What are your opinions on the issues that others find offensive?

I think when we discuss issues alone, or general principles, without debating some news story, the differences are much smaller. We usually agree with the overall goals, its how to get there that we sometimes differ.

[Andromeda]

86. Nobody has ever called me names...

to my face (well, you know what I mean :)) but the message, IMHO, is that if you're a centrist, you're republican-lite. Now, I know I'm nowhere near being a republican or a neo-con. I'm definitely not a freeper.

How did they come up with "Jew" or "born again"? That's really a stretch.

There are a lot of moderates and centrists at DU but I think the lefties are perhaps the most vocal. Which is okay 'cause I can dig it. DLC-types are not popular at DU, and I'm not too fond of them either. They are not inclusive and want to dismiss the liberal wing which is a large segment of our party.

The DLC needs to change it's strategy or it's platform if it wants to unite the Democratic party. Right now, the DLC is pushing away the grassroots. They don't want people to have any power. That's why they fought tooth and nail to keep Howard Dean from being chairman of the DNC.

[nickshepDEM]

108. The "jew" and "born again" comments came during...

an arguement over Israel striking Irans nuclear facilities. I stated Id support Israel in this case, and another member responded with (Im paraphrasing here), "You must be a jew or born again because they are the only ones I know who take that position."

[eggman67]

115. I hear ya

I too consider myself a moderate/centrist and have been made to feel unwelcome in the Democratic party, so much so that I registered Independent back in 1985 and make my decisions on a per election basis. I occasionally re-register for primaries, but in general I don't feel welcome in the Democratic party.

[Lecky]

22. Agree 100%

[Dr Fate]

25. I agree- so long as they dont suggest we kiss Bush's ass anymore.

Bush is NOT a centrist- so real DEM centrists- who presumably are centrists leaning slightly to the left- should not have much trouble distancing themsleves from his philosophy/agenda.

I dont have a problem with moderates & centrists at all- I consider myself a moderate on an issue or two...

So long as no one is bringing that "lets be nice to Bush & pull our punches" strategy, I want EVERYONE on board.

[Writer]

27. Bush isn't even a conservative, in my opinion.

Bush is in his own category. A narcissistic self-loathing (no that's not an oxymoron) man whose imbalance jeopardizes our country by the day.

Bush is of his own party. The party of "ME."

[Dr Fate]

28. I agree- I know good conservatives- and Bush aint one. n/t

n/t

[AntiCoup2K4]

30. The DLC doesn't want a seat at the table. They want the entire table.

I guess it comes down to what is meant by "centrist" and "conservative". Neither term describes the reality of what the DLC stands for, which is corporatism and neocon fascism. There may very well be DLC members who joined, thinking it was a "centrist" organization, but I can guarantee you that the ones whose names you would recognize instantly (Clinton, Biden, Bayh, Vilsack, etc) do NOT fit that description.

There's plenty of room at the table for the Paul Hacketts and Barack Obamas of the party. I just don't believe we need to tolerate the Zell Millers and Will Marshalls to get there.

[ElectroPrincess]

32. Take note of this ...

Notice the identical progression of these threads? Then ask yourself, is this genuine, or a DLC power play?

[cleveramerican]

33. We Dem's are a conflicted bunch

we tend to fall into three groups;

1. Blame the messenger: the message is good ,the candidates was weak.
2. Blame the message: The candidate was good, the message is less clear, less compelling.
3. Blame each other: we were screwed by; Republican dirty tricks , Nader/the Greens, Dem's who stayed home.

I know I'm going to get hammered for this, but I tend to go with the first group.
Don't confuse unity with uniformity. Unity is within reach for democrats. Uniformity is not and never was.

[NMDemDist2]

110. so what are you saying there EP? you think folks who disagree must

be paid agitators? I've always found DU to be a wide range of Democratic voices of all stripes and sizes.

having read many, many threads here, I am constantly amazed at the depth and variety of viewpoints from our members. These DLC debates have been heated and many, but it's sure been an education for this member :D

[Writer]

111. Say what? This thread is still around?

Didn't know a call for unity could be this controversial. HA!

[Armstead]

34. Hell, the conservative and "centrist" Dems OWN the table

This is not a case of the poor 'lil DLC types trying to come from the outside in. They are the ones who have controlled the machine for too long....The liberal and progressives are the ones who have been kept from the table for too long.

But in the eyes of the DLC, the mere fact that their nartrow view is being challenged is akin to heersay.

[Generator]

41. I think I agree with you there

Most Americans have probably never even heard of the DLC, there is the Republicans and the Dems and they seem so much alike these days. I've heard that for YEARS. The DLC thinking is: Be more conservative, cater to Republican issues, we hate abortion too!, we love war too!, and we really love money! don't rock the boat..get rid of that horrible Michael Moore and I you can bet your ASS they are cringing in their shorts over this embarassing Cindy Sheehan. Calling the president a liar! WE can't have that now can we? We can't ever acknowledge the ten million pound elephant in the room because we would have to admit we ARE WRONG too. The war is a bust. We were misled. We were wrong. But that will never happen. And we have no LEADERS to lead us AWAY from what Bush is doing..because they are going along hoping to get a few more pissy votes? Who the fuck cares if the votes are not giving us what we believe a Democrat is supposed to mean. The best line I've heard: The DLC, the Democratic wing of the neo-cons.

I am not on this ship. It's a lie. It's not reality. IT doesn't work. I'm not you far leftie..either..I'm as frigging middle America as you are going to get and I'm not going to hand over the name Democrat anymore if it doesn't represent telling the truth, admitting they are wrong, and BEING THE OPPOSITION party not the party of appeasment.

PS Writer I AM NOT a pacifist. I originally supported the Iraq War. You can't paint me as the leftie loon that's an extremist. (not that being anti-Iraq war from the get go is that-You guys were better informed, and trusted your gut better than I)
I want my military actually used to defend ME. Telling lies does not make me safer and I don't give a shit how many votes that gets you. It's wrong and it's stupid.

[Q]

35. Whether 'centrists' and 'conservative?' Democrats...

...deserve a seat at the table has NEVER been the issue. Of course they do. But the real issue has always been about the DLC as an outside group of corporate lobbyists taking control and "changing the philosophy" of the party without any kind of consent or mandate. Not only that...they are literally shoving Liberals and Progressives AWAY from the table.

It's very disingenuous of you to frame the argument in a way as to once again intimate that it's the 'left' that's alienating the DLC instead of the other way around. The DLC doesn't want to compete with Liberals and Progressives on an even playing field to determine which will become the nominee for president. They want the Liberals eliminated from any participation in party politics and policy-making.

This is not a fight between liberals and 'centrists'. First of all...the DLC's position is not one of centrism. Much of the DLC's agenda is in concert with the Right's pro-corporate/war policies. This puts them to the 'center-right'...not the center-left.

Liberals and Progressives have no problem working with true centrists. But that's not what the DLC is all about. They were created for the singular purpose of advancing a RWing agenda and to destroy the last remaining liberal elements in the party. We can and will work with rank and file centrists. But not the DLC as they try to take control of the party without a mandate and demonize rather than work with liberals and progressives.

[Raksha]

66. Let's not even call it a fight between "liberals" and "moderates"

or "conservatives." All that does is muddy the water. What's really going on here is a struggle between the populists and the corporatists.

[sendero]

36. So long as they are not funded..

... by corporations with a vested interest against everything Dems stand for, I agree. I have no problem with "centrists" or "moderates", I'm anything but a classic liberal.

But we need for the CONSTITUENTS to choose our candidates, without the distortions of blatant special interest money. Face it, with enough cash you can get John Birch elected as a Dem and we apparently pretty much have.

[unlawflcombatnt]

54. Well said

That's exactly how I feel. Candidates should be chosen and elected by voters, not by special interests. Unfortunately, many representatives ignore their constituents, while catering almost exclusively to the interests of their big campaign contributors.

If we could severely limit campaign contributions, candidates would be forced to streamline their message. It would reduce their ability to disseminate corporate-financed propaganda. Then we would truly have a government "by the people and for the people."

unlawflcombatnt

[Eloriel]

67. Yes, elected NOT by special interests and also NOT by DLCers

either, which is what happened with our last Presidential nominee,thanks to a good number of various types of shenanigans and a good number of just plain dirty tricks. They took the choice OUT of voters' hands by manipulating the system, and kept it for themselves. That front-loaded primary thing is part of that strategy, btw (just one part).

[idlisambar]

39. define "centrist"

I don't have a problem with centrist or even conservative Democrats per se, but I do have a problem with Dems who align themselves more with Wall Street than the traditional Dem constituencies.

[unlawflcombatnt]

49. What is "Centrist"?

Idlisambar,

I completely agree. I'm still seeking an issue-by-issue definition of "centrist."

unlawflcombatnt

[European Socialist]

40. if they all agree to bash Bush-We all can agree he has been a disaster.

[LTRS]

42. No they don't!

And the reason they don't is because they have supported the republicans and denigrated progressives.

We all need to fight together? Then I say you first, centrists of the DLC. Get on the team instead of spending more time criticizing it than supporting it.

[LittleClarkie]

43. Considering the Chairman is considered one of you to some extent

and has said that he wants to appeal to a wide cross-section of Dems, I would think that he would agree with you.

[mmonk]

44. When they say we're not a problem,

aren't yesterdays news, leftwing kooks bringing down the party, we must be silenced, we're not reasonable, we don't resonate with American values, we're unAmerican for opposing the invasion of Iraq, etc., I might condider it. Otherwise, they are part of what's wrong my country. Not at my table.

[AuntPatsy]

45. Agree...

[BlueIris]

46. Last time I checked, centrists and conservative "Democrats"

were RUNNING the table. With all the cowardly, anti-choice, misogynist, ignorant bigotry they could spew.

[LittleClarkie]

55. Isn't Bill Clinton considered centrist

When did he spew anti choice bigotry?

[Eloriel]

68. AFAIC, "safe, legal and rare" is anti-choice in that it

stipulates or tends to validate an underlying premise held by the anti-abortion zealots (and that's what Bill was so good at: triangulation! to the detriment of the Left, I might add), and something I don't believe at all: that abortion is morally wrong or something to be ashamed of.

[Pepperbelly]

90. I disagree with you on this ...

Rare is not bad. Rare is good. Regardless of the underlying ethical issues regarding the fetus or the unborn or whatever, both the psychological trauma of abortion for Mom and some physical risks are present as well. I deplore its use as birth control although I am uncertain how often that actually occurs and of course, that doesn't have an impact on whether or not it should be available.

But all in all, I think fewer abortions is good. And I fully support choice. People are, after all, entitled to their own opinions on the matter without being labeled like an Operation Rescue sniper or something.

[Andromeda]

92. Good answer....

I totally agree with you.

[liberaliraqvet26]

112. United We Take Back Congress...

otherwise we lose to the R's. I'd prefer Bill Nelson over Katherine Harris anyday of the week.

[unlawflcombatnt]

47. What is "Centrist"

It's still not clear to me what positions are considered "Centrist" and what positions are considered "Leftist." Maybe someone can help me out.

Is opposition to the WTO and all Free Trade agreements centrist or leftist?

Is opposition to open borders and unrestricted immigration centrist or leftist?

Rolling back tax cuts on the top 2% is leftist, isn't it?

Is general advocacy of Demand-Side economic policies leftist?

Is opposition to Corporate welfare leftist?

Is opposing a draft or mandatory public service leftist or centrist?

Raising the minimum wage is leftist, isn't it?

Is distrust of Greenspan's fiscal policy leftist, centrist, or rightist?

Is opposition to the Patriot Act leftist?

Is opposition to Bush's Social Security privatization/corporatization plan leftist?

If one doubts that our outsourcing problems can be solved by more education and more trade assistance adjustment funding, does that make them a leftist, centrist, or rightist?



I'm completely serious about my "left-right" spectrum questions. I honestly don't know where I fit in the spectrum. And I'm not sure what DLC positions I agree with or disagree with.

[jonnyblitz]

52. i bet you don't get too many responses to this...I admit my view

of what is what is subjective. I am sure there is no consensus..

[unlawflcombatnt]

58. Thanks

Jonnyblitz,

Thanks for your response. You're probably correct. There seems to be a nearly universal attempt by most politicians to obfuscate their positions on issues.

Though many would disagree, I think John Kerry was a notable exception. The difficulty in understanding Kerry's positions came from his being very "middle-of-the-road" on many issues. Those reading his website, however, found that he went into great detail as to exactly where he stood. The fact that he wasn't all the way to one extreme or the other made it difficult to determine which "side" of an issue he was on. Again, this came from taking the middle ground on many issues. "Middle-of-the-road" positions often result from wisdom and extensive legislative experience, plus the realization that often there is no reasonable "for-or-against" position to take.

I have my own "middle-of-the-road" positions. However, the ones I listed are ones on which I am very polarized. Unqualified opposition to all "free-trade" agreements is one example. In contrast, my "middle-of-the-road" positions are ones I could bend on.

unlawflcombatant

[OzarkDem]

72. Not that easily categorized

For instance, Dems who are fiscal conservatives favor a balanced budget and would definitely be in favor of rolling back the tax cuts for the top 2% of earners. Good economic policy that is proven to work for all.

Same goes for privatization of SS. Most fiscally conservative Dems are opposed to it for the same reasons - its a budget wrecker.

Fiscally conservative Dems also believe that environmental regulations can actually be good for the economy and make businesses more efficient.

Same with Greenspan's fiscal policies. Most fiscally conservative Dems don't agree with what he's been doing, its irresponsible.


Keep in mind, the fiscal policies you've seen Repubs practicing under Bush have been anything but conservative. Fiscal conservatives favor responsible policies, balanced budgets, low inflation, low interest rates, investment in economic growth in the US, investment in jobs, education, new technology, infrastructure and health care all as a means to make our economy and country stronger.

When you think of a fiscally conservative Democrat - think of Al Gore.

[MadHound]

48. Gee, that's funny, I've gotten the distinct impression

That over the past thirty past years, Centerist and Conservative Democrats OWNED the goddamn table, and that they deemed those of us on the left not only unfit to sit at the table, but we weren't even to be given any crumbs from said table. Silly me.

Stop your whining, please. This sort of noise is akin to neo-cons whining about how liberals are ruining the country, when they control all three branches of government.

What about extending a genuine welcome to your liberal brothers and sisters? I'm sick to death of being demonized and denigrated by conservative, centerist and DLC Dems, only to be ordered to fall in line every two years. You want the lefts' help? Then it is time for you to compromise. Take one of the lefts' pet planks, ending the war, universal health care, something, anything, and not only make it part of the party's platform. Push it through and make it law. If you do this, you will bring out the left in droves. But if you don't, the left is either going to sit on its hands or go Green.

But whatever you do, stop playing the martyr card. The center and conservative faction of the Democratic party have had total control of the party for the past thirty plus years. They pulled the party to the right, demonized and alienated the left, become corporate whores, and managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory on multiple occaissons. It is time for some real change, so you are left with two choices, pitch in and help out or get the hell out of the way.

[LittleClarkie]

50. Definitely Israel and the Palestinians

"Let me at the table"
"No, you let ME at the table"
"You're fighting me"
"No, you're fighting ME"
"You blame everything on me"
"NO! YOU blame everything on ME"

Separated at birth.

[MadHound]

53. Whatever friend

Tell you what, can you look at the history of the Democratic Party over the past thirty years and tell me that I'm wrong? Somehow I doubt it, but I'm willing to listen.

But hey, if you wish to keep addressing this problem with meaningless mouthings, fine. And you will watch as the Democratic Party goes the way of the Whigs.

Yes, the party needs to unite in order to achieve victory. Getting to such diverse factions to unite after decades of animosity, alienation and acrimony is going to require compromise. Are the Centerists and Conservatives of the party willing to do that? Are is this just more of the same ol' same ol', meaningless mouthing backed up with demands for unity. If that is all this is, then the party can go to hell for all I care.

Thanks for a meaningful contribution to the dialogue:eyes:

[jonnyblitz]

62. THANK YOU.

somebody needed to say it...:thumbsup:

[TankLV]

103. Yes - exactly - especially to this poster!

[Cha]

51. Times they are a changing

and they can't Stand it!!

[cleveramerican]

59. When did the DLC become so reviled?

Didn't Clinton get to the white house via the DLC? Didn't Kerry come so close? How can you rail against them? Didn't we all work together and miss by only 1%? If you want to be pissed at somebody, be pissed at the republicans, Lord knows they deserve it!

[LoZoccolo]

60. Some (tactlessly) tried to stamp out Dean with a short sharp shock.

I defend a lot of the DLC ideas, but this was a huge mistake on the part of some of their leadership. It was that thing that made them became the boogeyman of activists, who started piling on more and more stuff about them, some of it bullshit...actually a lot of it bullshit.

[Andromeda]

94. That's one of the things,

that turned me against the DLC. I had my doubts about its relevancy before but when they turned on Dean that made me soooo mad.:mad:

[Cha]

65. I think you better read up

on what the dlc is saying now and see if you still need to be asking that question. And Yes I am PISSED at the dlc. I have more than enough rancor to go around regarding these assholes and the bushwa.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2034958

SeanQ (293 posts) Thu Aug-25-05 05:04 PM
Original message
DLC == PNAC light!


<snips>

"Will Marshall, co-founder of the DLC, is involved in the Project for a New American Century (PNAC). That's right - he is a signatory on documents issued from the same organization founded on the ideals of the likes of Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bolton, Perle and company!

http://rightweb.irc-online.org/ind/marshall/marshall.ph...
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050221/vest


"Will Marshall is participating in an event (to paraphrase Sirota) only right-wing lunatics should take part in, at the fringe-conservative Heritage Foundation entitled "Did the Progressives Destroy America?".
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"Real centrist Democrats do bring in very valuable input. As a party we have matured and grown over the past few decades. We have become the party of fiscal responsibility, understanding that big government helps no one, and that to achieve our loftiest ideals for the common good we need to implement wise stewardship of our resources and sound long-term planning. We have shown that we are the party capable of winning conflicts - because we only get into them when we need to, and plan to get out as quickly as possible, as opposed to waging wars of opportunity. We do not confuse profit for corporations with national interest!"

"Most likely some members of the DLC do really mean well, and certainly some of the DLC platform is good-sense, moderate Democratic ideas. But publishing some articles that reflect centrist Democratic ideas, does NOT make them centrist when you look at their entire body of work, nor does it excuse the way they treat to rest of the party. The organization is a poison to our party (indivual members will need to be sorted out). Instead of encouraging liberal and moderate Democrats to work together to develop reasonable, applicable solutions that works toward our shared ideals, they try to disown our ideals so they wont get in the way."

"The DLC lost us the presidency, the Senate, and the House. But, in the right-wing tradition of blame-shifting, they blame 'liberals', applying the label to anyone in their own party who disagrees with them (including Dean, who they loved for his politics before they realized they couldn't control him, or his funding)"

[OzarkDem]

75. No he didn't, he got there on his own

He was a fan of the DLC at the time and his methods of using triangulation strategies worked well for him.

Keep in mind, one of his top advisors, his Chief of Staff John Podesta, was not a member of the DLC and has since gone on to develop a think tank that is the envy of their group (Center for American Progress).

[Eloriel]

56. SAVED ME THE TROUBLE -- I was going to say

Yeah, but you don't get to hog it all to yourself, which is what you've been doing -- and the PROOF of that is how far right they mods and centrists have allowed the whole country to appear to be simply because of your complicity with Repugs. Since Reagan.

So move the fuck OVER, it's our turn for a while.

[Eloriel]

69. dupe

sorta

[TankLV]

102. Well said. They have to EARN our support the next time around.

I'm tired of doing ALL the compromising to THEIR pet projects, while still waiting with my hands out for any consideration of OUR positions.

So far it's: Oh, vote dem, you can't really think of not voting of wasting your vote for somebody else who believes as you do. So we won't give you anyting because you have nowhere else to go.

Just SOMETHING - not EVERYTHING - just SOMETHING!

Well think again. I have chosen to stop playing that little game.

But all I hear is how we need to move right - again!

Give us something real concrete to vote FOR, instead of just assuming you'll have our vote like always. If not, the result will be VERY disappointing.

[flaminbats]

70. give me liberty or death..

Opposing liberty is never well-rounded, but loving it is. Democracy gives everyone a seat at the table, aristocracy doesn't. Republicans didn't win blue-collar votes by promoting benefits of the New Deal, backing minimum wage increases, appealing to minorities and the poor, or embracing moderation on issues like abortion or taxes increases. They won votes by demonizing liberals as unchristian baby killers, un-American traitors who weaken the military, tax and spend servants of government who hate small business, supporters of rationing and long gas lines, those who caused stagflation, and those who would punish praying children in public schools.

We can win votes without fleeing from liberalism. Democrats can convert conservatives, while sermonizing against evils of the radical right. But why win if we have no clear objectives, otherwise how are we different than those controlling Congress now?

[OzarkDem]

71. Agree!

but without the DLC. They are divisive, inflammatory, negative and have little to offer in the way of ideas. I also find them somewhat misogynist, their policies with reagards to women's issues are sorely lacking.

That said, there are plenty of centrist and conservative Dems, right here on this forum and others and within our own communities and states.

Dems problems have never been issue related. Our current policies and party platform are good, and they've been proven to work. They benefit Americans in blue and red states, rich and poor. We need to focus more on communications, framing issues, and educating voters about the real issues facing the country.

Educating voters, that's the key.

[Q]

76. We should keep in mind...

...that if the DLC 'leaves'...all we'll be missing is From's think tank and a bunch of misguided elected and unelected 'officials'. They have no rank and file following besides those who have to pay to read their 'newsletter'.

All in all...I'm not sure that anyone would notice they were gone...except for the absence of a anti-progressive faction that works with the right to demonize Democrats.

[OzarkDem]

79. I'm not losing any sleep over it

They're outdated. No new ideas. Their policies aren't even good for business - just cash giveaways to the leisure class, not investment in the economy or jobs.

I'd rather support Dems who want to move our economy forward again, push for innovation, research new technology, retain high tech jobs, but also keep the core components of our own manufacturing and resources.

I support Dems who relish the challenge of sitting down and looking at the wreck of a health care system and roll up their sleeves to see who can come up with truly innovative ideas, building on past successes and have long term sustainability. Bring together collaborations from multiple disciplines, institutions, business and technology sectors.

Smart solutions benefit everyone, not just a few. More tax breaks for the wealthy is so old, tired, and false. DLC seems to have forgotten that. Like Repubs, they are mired in a 19th century business frame of mind.

[Andromeda]

91. This is the best definition I've heard,

"Agree...but without the DLC. They are divisive, inflammatory, negative and have little to offer in the way of ideas. I also find them somewhat misogynist, their policies with reagards to women's issues are sorely lacking."

DLC just doesn't have anything valuable to offer.

[zanne]

74. As a DU Leftist, I have ONE request.

If you are not a centrist or conservative Democrat at all but a Libertarian, please state that when you post. I think it causes alot of discord when people post as if they're democrats by not identifying their party. I understand that Libertarians are welcome on DU, as are Greens, but the Libertarian Party contains right-wingers as well as liberals. Please let us know where you stand in the political spectrum when you post. I like to know if I'm talking to a fellow Democrat or not.

[flaminbats]

80. for many voters, democracy and liberty are more than political clubs..

I am a Democrat because democracy is the foundation of my philosophy. I call myself liberal because liberty is not bound by any political party. Many who vote Libertarian are nothing more than disenchanted conservatives, and most who vote Green or Libertarian are only pissed with the two-party system.

[Wizard777]

81. I agree. But if they aid and abet Bush in his crimes after the fact

They can go down with him too. Aiding a treasonist at any time is treason. Treason is like a cancer. What ever it touches become cancerous and therefore treasonous

[cleveramerican]

85. one hypothetical voter

who vote Dems 90% of the time and Republican/Green 10% of the time.

Are you saying this person is not welcome, you aren't happy he/she votes with us often though not always? thats not enough for you!
this seems incredibly short-sighted to me.

[Wizard777]

100. One Real Voter

I vote Democrat 100%. I voted for the Democrat Kathleen Kennedy Townsend (RFK's Daughter) when the centrists in Md. ran off with the party name in support of a Republican Candidate. "Democrats for Ehrlich." Now Ehrlich is trying to sell Maryland to the Canadian Gaming Industry.

They tend to want to make nice and let sleeping dogs lie. If they think overlooking Bush's War crimes and treasons is the right way to go. You have lost me and maybe even my state forever and I mean that with passion. As always the republicans started this battle and the Democrats are going to finish it! Too late to cry uncle and make nice. A Treason Concivtion of this Nature is the death of a Party and it couldn't happen to a more corrupt bunch. Welcome to the mainstrean Green Party!

Otherwise I have little to no problems with them. Welcome to the battle to restore the US Constitution to it's former Glory! Call your Green Party friends. We can use all the help we can get and more.

[Andromeda]

83. I agree!!!

Nobody should be alienated because of a difference of opinion.

We're all free to speak our minds but we need to come together if we're going to achieve party unity.

[IndianaGreen]

84. and in return... what do you have to offer the Left?

How about telling the American people the truth about Iraq: the war was based on lies, we will never win no matter how many GIs die, let's bring the troops home NOW!

[eggman67]

87. See my sig (n/t)

[salin]

93. I welcome all centrists and moderates - who don't immediate condemn

liberals sitting at the table. Those who want to work together and value one another should be welcome. Those who want to sneer at, demean and place blame on liberals - should be seriously questioned per whether they want a seat at the table, or whether they want to take the table over.

[Hippo_Tron]

95. I have to admit, I'm more open to non-DLC centirsts/moderates

But there are actually a few decent DLCers as well. But hey the table is always open. Frankly I think that we should all sit down and sort of discuss things.

Perhaps we should lock Howard Dean, Al From, and maybe somebody farther to the left in a room and let them get it all out.

[GoneOffShore]

96. I used to be a moderate Democrat

NO MORE.
I'm fifty fucking seven years old and I'm tired of the bullshit that the 'centrists/moderates/conservatives' have been pushing at us for the last 15 years.
I'm sorry I bought into Bill Clinton's DLC - despite the fact that I think he's an amazing politician and I wish he was still President.
It's an extraordinary mess we're in and the centrists are not going to get us out by tiptoeing around the issues.
It's time to call the bastards out. 'You're either with small business owners, working people and the poor or your with the soulless corporate fuckers who will destroy the social safety net for us all.'
We can no longer afford to fund the plutocracy that Bush is trying to create. We have to raise taxes on the rich and the corporations. We have to strengthen the environmental laws, stop corporate welfare, and provide a wider social safety net - universal health care, fair pensions, and real educational reform (which means paying teachers a more than living wage).
The DLC is not going to help us achieve those goals and no amount of posturing by 'centrist/moderate/conservative Democrats' can help us.
We need strong, progressive candidates, willing to take a stand against the forces of reaction, willing to say, 'No, it's not enough. It's time to bite the bullet and make social policy that encourages people to pay their fair share. It's time to reinvigorate the ideals of the New Deal.'

[TankLV]

104. Yes - restore the "New Deal"!

I can't believe how low the party has become.

[tsuki]

97. I agree. But what I don't agree with is the DLC trying to purge the party

and label progressives as having ruined America. I cross the line, zig-zag. Social liberal, fiscal conservative: pro-defense, anti-war: pro-troop, anti-Rumsfield. But if I am declared not good enough to be a Democrat by the DLC, then something is wrong.

I am not willing to Lock-Step with Marshall and Fromm. If they cannot accept that, then that is the death of the Democratic Party.

I am not willing to repudiate Michael Moore, MoveOn.org, Cindy Sheehan, Howard Dean, George Soros. I agree with them on some issues, and others not. I DO NOT question that they are concerned with the welfare of the Democratic Party and the nation. I do not believe that they should be purged from the party.

If you want me to repudiate them for your "centrist" position, then this is not the Democratic Party. If you want to paint all anti-war persons as unAmerican, then this is not the Democratic Party.

The DLC is not the party of the "centrists." They are the infiltrated GOP'ers that want to destroy the Democratic Party.

[leesa]

98. Well, perhaps you should start telling the centrists and moderates to try

working for the good of the people and not for the good of the GOP, foreign interets or corporate interests. It's up to them. THEY are the reason voters say they can't tell the difference between the two parties.

[flaminbats]

101. IMO, liberals make a mistake..by calling such people moderates

anyone who is bribed by corporate interests, promotes more government spending alongside taxcuts, and wants to imprison women or teenage girls for having abortions..is never moderate. They are only nuts, demagogues, and hypocrites

[WhiteTara]

99. the only question I see is

will they work with us? Seems like we are the ones shifted to the side, not them. :shrug:

[fujiyama]

105. Definetely

A civil discourse is what is needed.

But in order for that to happen, needless insults by the likes of From and Marshall must cease. In fact, I think an even better gesture by the DLC would be to toss those two (and the others that have worked for the likes of the Christian Coalition) out. Also the DLC should also no longer claim or try to claim exclusive leadership rights to the party. They must be willing to listen to what the rest of the members have to say.

I would also like an explanation as to how pandering to corporate interests helps the Democratic party.

But ultimately I agere with you on most points. Moderates and centrists have more in common with liberals than they have with the fascists in power right now.

[robcon]

113. Definietely not.

fujiyama wrote: "A civil discourse is what is needed.

But in order for that to happen, needless insults by the likes of From and Marshall must cease. In fact, I think an even better gesture by the DLC would be to toss those two (and the others that have worked for the likes of the Christian Coalition) out."

So in other words, the 'civil discourse' is for the DLC, not for the rest of the Democratic Party, and not for you, fujiyama. As far as you are concerned your 'needless insults' against them should be given a free pass, but we should 'toss out' those who allegedly provide needless insults against your point of view.

Look in the mirror, fujiyama. And look at the tenor of the insults against the DLC on this thread. Most of the insults against the DLC are 'needless' and phony, IMO.

[jonnyblitz]

114. the DLC are the ones that started this fight. nt

[fujiyama]

117. Sorry

but you're full of shit.

Most of the "insults against the DLC are 'needless' and phony"? Gee, why don't you go read what the DLC has said. They've basically called liberals weak kneed pansies and I'm not sitting back and listening to it any longer. I'm making this up? Here's the article: http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253472&kaid=124&subid=307

It's a barrage of insults at liberals, Michael Moore, Move On, and the Northeast. It's in praise of war criminals like Tony Blair. Oh, but is using the term "war criminal" too harsh? Is insulting republicans and Tony Blair offensive to you? If so I'm really sorry to offend your sensibilities.

BTW, I didn't know it was wrong to not trust people that worked at the Christian Coalition, the Heritage Foundation, and other RW think tanks, not to mention signers and endorsers of PNAC documents.

If you want a party ruled by the likes of From and Marshall then be honest. In fact, I'd actually urge you to try and experience the real thing - you might like it better.

[jonnyblitz]

118. well said.

I wasn't aware those ASSHOLES were trashing the northeast, too.

[fujiyama]

119. Here's the actual quote:

"Conversely, the military is not always held in high esteem in what might be called the European wing of the Democratic party -- secular liberal elites in the deep-blue Northeast and West Coast."

There ya have it. He's managing to insult BOTH coasts. Here's the link. This was the article that basically drove me away from them. I used to defend them all the time, but this article was it.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253472&kaid=124&subid=307

[jonnyblitz]

124. WOW. I don't know why I am surprised...

fucking ASSHOLES!! thanks for the link...

[unlawflcombatnt]

121. There's More

They also want us to de-emphasize our criticism of torture, and condone the mistaken attack on Iraq, using the Repuclican argument about how evil Sadam Hussein was. They actually imply that going into Iraq was the right thing to do. And that we shouldn't be so concerned about torturing prisoners. And that we should condone the concept of invading another country, even if we haven't been attacked. They're more hawkish than the average Republican is.

Apparently they support outsourcing American jobs, as evidenced by their critique that more Democrats consider outsourcing a bigger problem that terrorism. Further evidence was their support of CAFTA.

They are nothing more than Republicans who have deceptively infiltrated the Democratic Party. They should not have a seat at any table. Their overwhelming concern is with terrorism and winning the war in Iraq. Helping the middle class and American worker are not part of their Republican-lite agenda. As such, they should have no part in setting our agenda.

[fujiyama]

123. I agree with you

except when saying they are concerned about terrorism. I actually don't believe they are concerned about terrorism, but only in talking about it. They snidely dismiss those that say that fighting terrorism is not part of the war on Iraq. They claim it is a mere intellectual argument. I

That's where they fail miserably. Islamist terrorism is indeed a threat, but rather than attacking the false premises the administration laid out in going to war, they are simply accepting it and like the republicans, they show that all this talk about terrorism is nothing but talk. The DLC is devoid of any ideas of their own. They simply repackage RW talking points in a more moderate sounding tone (though of course they'll still attack liberals).

You are absolutely right about their complete lack of concern about working people and economic issues in general. Their only interest is in pandering to wealthy white collar, white suburbanites. They have no idea or interest in working people or their concerns. That is why they back bills like "bankruptcy reform", an issue that was nothing but a giveaway to credit card companies. Ask them how this or CAFTA actually benefits people in red states and they won't give you an answer. I've asked several times. They are mute.

[Beacho]

106. Sure, A seat

but they don't have the right to BUY the table and then say who can sit at it.

That includes calling other dems 'anti-american'

[cleveramerican]

107. there's more group #3 folks here than i thought

I thought we had put the circular firing squad behind us.

[Q]

109. Okay...let's all get around the 'table' and talk...

...but first let's agree that the DLC 'centrists' and Liberals/Progressives need to share power and have access to the platform and agenda. Let's also agree to provide an 'even playing field' for all candidates for the 2008 election. Finally...let's agree that there will be no effort by the DLC to push their candidates on us as the 'only ones able to win elections' while they character assassinate progressive candidates with the help of the corporate media.

If the DLC sincerely wants to come to the table and talk...it would benefit everyone involved. But so far their calls for 'unity' entails everyone else following them...without input or participation in the democratic process.

The 'left' will not be treated like Bush treats his 'faithful followers'...like little children too naive or stupid to do anything but agree and follow in lockstep.

[cleveramerican]

125. is there any evidence ...

to support the notion that giving in to the demands of progressives/liberals will improve the likelihood of victory in elections?

do you simply want to be more true to your ideals and strategize less?