Congratulations, progressives! You've been talking-point-ized!

[LoZoccolo]

Through several levels of indirection in a cyberspace version of the game "telephone", Will Marshall's role debating Thomas G. West at the Heritage Foundation has now morphed into the disingenuous talking point "The DLC says progressives destroyed America!"

I am very proud of us today, because now I know we'll be able to take on the Republican Party! And why is this? Because we have now shown the ability to collectively thrust a demonstrably false talking point into the marketplace of ideas...something we couldn't do as effectively up until now!

Remember these?

- Howard Dean is a mouthpiece for the terrorists. (This was because he cited one during a discussion of terrorism.)
- Howard Dean supports the Confederate Flag. (This was because he wanted to begin the work of bringing the white southern working class to the Democratic Party).
- Howard Dean is racist because he didn't have any African-Americans on his cabinet. (Vermont is 97% white, and he did make offers for these unattractive positions which were declined.)
- John Kerry used to hang out with Hanoi Jane. (This was after he was a couple rows back from her when the picture was taken.)

These were all effective points of bullshit which did the Republican Party good...now we're showing them that we can come up with our own bullshit...and against our own party no less!

I guess we really do have two Republican parties in this country!

_{NOTE: This post is sarcastic.}

[LTRS]

1. Let me ask you something....

... which of our democratic wussy politicians is calling that bullshit?

None?

Yeah, that's what I thought. That is our problem.

[welshTerrier2]

2. the death whining of the DLC

if you put your ear to your keyboard, you can just barely make out the faint whispers ... they hint at a re-unification between the Party's center (moderates) and the Party's left-wing ... they hint of an understanding that the divisive DLC has been the problem all along ...

moderates are coming to see that the war in Iraq no longer makes any sense ... it is only a matter of time before many, not all, leading Democrats endorse this position ... the left will welcome their return with open arms ...

and moderates will agree with "the left" that there's been far too much influence by corporations in the halls of our government ... they understand that the American people are no longer able to direct the national policies they seek ...

these views will help re-unify the Party's center and the Party's left wing ... and in doing so, the left will find a new tolerance and a spirit of compromise for many, not all, of our Party's leaders ...

this re-unification is an anathema to the DLC ... their hawkish, macho foreign policies that condone American imperialism and their "free market" deregulated economics that have raped the environment, American workers and American consumers and taxpayers are being exposed for all to see ... and politically, they have failed miserably ... they point longingly to the Clinton years as an indication of their success ... but those days are fading into history as fast as the Party's majority status did ...

it is time to kick the DLC out of the Democratic Party and I believe a re-unification of center and left will soon do just that ... if you are DLC, your days are numbered my friend ... i'm confident DLC'ers will find a certain other party ready to welcome them ...

[LoZoccolo]

3. This generic reply could be posted in like tons of different threads.

Have you been doing that? Tell the truth.

And Sirota's article (which you don't mention or defend) is still bullshit.

[welshTerrier2]

4. i didn't even participate in the Sirota thread

frankly, i thought he's written much more effective things than he said in that article ... like his article the other day referring to anti-war Democrats as anti-American ... now that wasn't very nice, was it?

you asked "Have you been doing that? Tell the truth."

since i haven't posted this "generic point" in "tons of different threads", and what's wrong with repeating one's points when the same topic is raised over and over and over (am i supposed to have brand new points each time??), the truthful answer is: NO ...

what i wrote is that we are now seeing the final dying gasps of the DLC ... i will relish in their ousting and the unity of moderates and lefties in the Party that will emerge from it ...

this is a very new theme for me ... your accusations to the contrary, even if true, would be meaningless ... the fact that they are accusations made without any knowledge shows your hand all too clearly ...

[LoZoccolo]

6. Why did you spam my thread with this, then?

I've heard all this "the DLC is dying, we are taking over, five-to-one baby, etcetera..." before, despite the fact that almost none of these strongly anti-DLC people show up to things like our Illinois Dem Net functions. I just don't really see these people anywhere but the Internet.

[welshTerrier2]

13. if "these strongly anti-DLC people" are only on the Internet

what are you so energized about?

i think the truth is that the Internet is a powerful communication medium and is very clearly shaping the direction of our Party and the country ... i think you're very aware of this and i think you are very concerned that "non-Party-elites" have finally found a voice that has previously been available only to Party insiders ...

if you see these discussions as little more than impotent keyboard whinings, what's the big deal?

[LoZoccolo]

14. Because it's frustrating seeing an untapped resource...

...thousands of people against Bush* and the Republicans, dedicating their time to such disingenuous vanity.

[welshTerrier2]

17. vanity ?

does that mean those of us who oppose the war are vain because we resent being called anti-American by your organization ??

do you not think the Internet was incredibly helpful last year to Kerry and to Dean? i think millions were raised for the Party over the Internet ...

and i think the regular mention of "bloggers" in the MSM and even the reading on the air of various blogs has already had a major impact on the news industry ... we are in the early stages of decentralizing the corporate control of news and information that Americans receive ...

i would hardly refer to that as an "untapped resource" ...

[LoZoccolo]

18. No.

I mean making up disingenuous talking points about the DLC, and weird conspiracy theories about them too. If you're going to criticize something, do it, just don't lie and don't romanticize the struggle. Think clearly and practically with an aim to getting what you want. But don't do things like twist stuff like this Will Marshall thing out of all meaning. We don't need rampant illogic in our party. For one, we don't really have a more centralized authority to coordinate the illogic the way the Republicans do, so it's not even practical.

[welshTerrier2]

21. making up disingenuous talking points

my criticisms of the DLC have focussed very directly on their policies and on quotes from their website that have been incredibly disrespectful and divisive ...

i trust you do not agree when they refer to baby boomers who protested the invasion of Iraq as merely, and i paraphrase the DLC's website from memory here, "nostalgic for the days of their youth" and when they refer to those who now oppose the war as "anti-American" ...

that isn't romanticizing or lying ...

the DLC has been a very divisive force in the Party ... frankly, i see nothing romantic about that ...

and my criticisms of the DLC have focussed on their policy positions ... there is a tidal wave of opposition to the war in Iraq coming ashore ... but Mr. and Mrs. DLC advocate "just going along" with the president ... that's bad policy and it's very bad politics ... i suggest we look elsewhere for guidance ...

and just to be clear, i did not "twist stuff like this Will Marshall thing out of all meaning" ... as i said, i did not even participate in the Sirota thread that referenced this topic ...

the cries we keep hearing for unity have, up until now, been cries for "the left" to be silent and "just go along" ... but the hypocrisy of calling for unity is laid bare when the DLC does nothing but attack those on the left and those who are anti-war (or anti-Iraq-war) ... unity is the right goal; the DLC is divisive ... it's not romantic; it's not lies; it's not generic ... it's quotes directly from their website ...

you want more support; disavow the divisive bullshit coming from the DLC ...

[LoZoccolo]

16. I'll also say this...

...it's also frustrating seeing what could be such a useful place such as this for real-life activists to exchange useful information and do work, turn into this rah-rah fest for people who don't do much, and thus probably chase away people who could be doing useful things with it.

[welshTerrier2]

19. well, i'll speak just for myself in response to that ...

since i became a very active DU'er almost 3 years ago, i spend way too many hours reading as much as i can about what's going on in the world and doing the best i can to spread the word to all i come into contact with ... i probably read parts of something like 10 to 15 domestic and international newspapers a day ...

the inspiration i received from the energy here on DU led me to running for a seat on my town's Democratic Committee ... last April, i attended my first Democratic State Convention ...

i have met several times, both in a group and one-on-one with my Congressman to "exchange views" ...

i've participated in several large anti-war demonstrations, a vigil for Cindy Sheehan and i've helped start a group that provides "living room films" about various political issues to people in my community ... i also spent hundreds of hours working for local Democratic candidates last year ...

i wouldn't have done any of this before i joined DU ... so DU has been a very useful place for this Democrat ... perhaps others who are "chased away" do not have similar goals and should look elsewhere for inspiration ...

[Mass]

8. Not exactly - Sirota says that Marshall is on the panel of the Heritage

Foundation and asks a reasonnable question: Why? Does he actually expect to change any mind in the public on this issue? He is right in his conclusions too: by his presence, he is making this discussion legitimate.

[LoZoccolo]

11. He does not /ask/ anything.

He says this:

Sure, Marshall will disingenuously argue that he is there to "debate" the issue. But he's been in Washington long enough to know exactly what he's doing: deliberately helping to legitimize the worst right-wing lies. If there was ever a question as to whether the DLC is actively trying to undermine Democrats and the progressive movement in general, there shouldn't be anymore. The answer is, yes they are.

Maybe someday you'll get unfairly accused of something by some random freakish activist and it'll sink in deep how insane a tack this is to take, and how messed-up a course it threatens to send us on. Would you like to be a Democratic strategist trying to come up with a plan at the same time someone in the room is throwing these kinds of accusations around? Do you think it helps, or hurts; do you think it adds an air of logic, or illogic, for someone to be prodding others with off-the-cuff charges like this with little evidence?

[lateo]

5. Wishful thinking....

The DLC is not dead...nor are they ready to admit they are the cause of the Democratic Party's downfall. On the contrary, they will still believe that they ARE the party until its very end.

[LoZoccolo]

7. Would people please quit the generic anti-DLC banter in the thread please.

You have so many other threads for that, or start your own. This thread is about a specific disingenuous talking point that demonstrates the illogical and ineffective depths to which the anti-DLC movement is willing to sink.

[Q]

10. Really? I see this thread as more of a distraction...

...from the story that one of the 'leaders' of the anti-progressive 'think tank' DLC is speaking at a Heritage Foundation function. Will...is that you?

[LoZoccolo]

12. I don't. n/t

[Q]

20. Well then...do you see it as a wise move...

...for Marshall to help the Heritage Foundation construct talking points against the Progressive movement? Or is it just one more stage for him to smear the left and prop up his anti-progressive circus called the DLC?

I wish I better understood your stance concerning the DLC. You and a few others continue to defend the DLC even though they've been exposed time and again as an anti-democratic, corporate-financed 'think tank' that works to push their right-leaning agenda on the party against the will of the majority.

What's in it for you and the few others so slavishly defending the DLC? Do you really think that most Democrats don't know that Bush lied this nation into 'war' on a country that posed no threat to our security? Do you think that they haven't noticed how corrupt the Bush administration is and how the DLC 'centrists' discourage any action against them?

History will show that the DLC was on the wrong side as Liberals and Progressives tried to fight the fascist Bush government.

[LoZoccolo]

22. No, it would not be a wise move.

Good thing that's not what he's doing.

You and a few others continue to defend the DLC even though they've been exposed time and again as an anti-democratic, corporate-financed 'think tank' that works to push their right-leaning agenda on the party against the will of the majority.

There's a Pew Research study that came out a few months ago that basically came to the conclusion that the Internet activist movement does not share the concerns of the general population of the Democratic Party...plus Joe Lieberman continues to enjoy high popularity ratings (I think the last I heard was 62%). So much for the majority.

What's in it for you and the few others so slavishly defending the DLC?

I am against disingenousness in general. It is no good having people throw around false and exaggerated talking points when there are important decisions to be made.

[Q]

24. One doesn't need a 'study' or poll to know...

...that 'internet activists' are just ordinary people with certain common interests and ideals. They want what most human beings want...and it doesn't include having their lives or political parties controlled by corporate shills.

You point to a poll rating for Lieberman as proof that the DLC holds a majority view in the party? Have the participants in these polls had an opportunity to study the DLC's agenda and hateful rhetoric on their website? Do they even KNOW that Lieberman and other DLCers get kickbacks from the defense industry for their 'help' in securing a miltary state?

We already know why the DLC and their RWing friends demonize internet 'activists'. It's the same reason they smeared Dean and Moore. They don't want the majority view to have a voice in the party and like their neoconservative allies...they're not above smearing and character assassinating anyone with an opposing point of view.

The DLC doesn't want to hear from the commoners. That's why they've invented this bullshit about those who use the internet to express their opinions.

[lateo]

23. Fuck the DLC

and fuck anyone who supports them. They are in the wrong party.

[welshTerrier2]

9. perhaps so ...

i have no illusions that they will yield power voluntarily ... but i see the early signs of re-unification ... certainly, there are no guarantees ...

and the source of this re-unification will be the war in Iraq ... IF, and it still is a big IF, Clark, Kerry and Dean come out strongly in support of a Feingold-like position, regardless of minor variations, and I have reasons to believe they soon will (perhaps it is just hope), the Party will truly divide over the war between the hardcore DLC screw-the-left macho foreign policy and those supporting sanity in Iraq ... and if this comes to pass, and follows the tidal wave of Americans growing increasingly disgusted with US presence in Iraq, the DLC will no longer "own" the Party's center ... the big name candidates, the Party Chair, and a common view of the war will create a new energy that will take control away from the "thanks for the minority party status" DLC ...

will it happen? is it wishful thinking? ... my answers are 'i think so' and 'yes, it's wishful thinking' ...

[AntiCoup2K4]

15. Will Marshall is a TREASONOUS PNAC WAR CRIMINAL

He is not a spokesman for the Democratic party, and any publication that credits the fucking bastard as such is not worth the paper (or cyberspace) it is printed on.

PNAC'ers do not speak for me, and they do not determine the future of my party.