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Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 06:22 PM
Original message
Lower voting age, Thread Two
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is supported by the CA Democratic Party. It's a great idea
The students who walked out of school and who don't want to be drafted are going to vote for our candidates. Let's welcome them with open arms into the party.
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Wabbajack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. 80% of the world would vote for our candidates
Let's lettem all vote then.
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ISUGRADIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. Just like 80% of 18 years olds did in 2004 did ...NOT
14-18 year olds break more or less politically as their parents do in what research I have seen on the subject. So it ain't gonna be 80% Dem.
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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. never mind
Edited on Thu Aug-25-05 06:41 PM by GreenArrow
.
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Albert Einstein Donating Member (241 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
3. This has increased voter turnout and enthusiasm where it's been done
This will add so much energy to the voting process that the polls will be overwhelmed with voters and volunteers making sure the elections don't get rigged.
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nosmokes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. i'm sorry, but i find this a diversion from issues that
actually mean something. and while i'm sure there are some 16yos out there more deserving of the vote, by right of their committment to causes and their education on the issues and the candidates stances than many 36 yos, but we are a society of millions and short of poll tests or some other system that could easily be abused, an age standard is the best way to go. and as mature and level headed and informed as i may have been at 16 i was that much more so at 18.
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Albert Einstein Donating Member (241 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Voting does mean something. The majority enter workforce at 16
Moar teens start work and start paying taxes at 16. A great many start paying taxes before 16. The voting age is the reason over 300 Americans died in Iraq without a chance to vote for President. The fact that these Americans never got to vote for President because of the high voting age means a lot to the families who survived them.
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wli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. end felon disenfranchisement, too n/t
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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. People under 18 are -in general- too immature
Living more or less on your own (which, again in general, comes at eighteen or soon after) I think is a necessary experience when it comes to politics.
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Padme Amidala Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Bush, Cheney and Condi fit your definition of mature
I think you have the definition backwards. Age sometimes warps ideals and intelligence.
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HellRaiser Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #9
46. How many times have you heard....
this:

"I turned 30 and Republican at the same time."

Too many people get older and narrower-minded at the same time. It's why there are so many middle-aged Republicans and so many fewer seniors - the midlife selfishness breeds the conditions that make later-on-life so miserable for those who weren't cut-throat enough to claw their way to the top.

If we can let 16 year olds have jobs, pay taxes, drive, pay taxes, fly solo and pay taxes, why not let them have representation, too?

(Did I mention that they pay taxes? Just checking.... :-)
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ISUGRADIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. There's only a slight correlation to voting more conservative
with age, not a dramatic one. See the 2000 and 2004 exit polls:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/results/index.epolls.html

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html

Your general point is well taken though. 16 would make more sense though as a voting age than 14 I will admit.
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HellRaiser Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. Still a good idea
Sixteen years olds are privileged with a great many benefits of our society, including having a job (and paying taxes on that income), driving, flying solo, getting married (in some states - this might not be seen as a benefit, but you get the idea) and so on. Sixteen year olds are less stressed than eighteens because they're NOT right around the corner from choosing college or a job, moving out and other critical, life-shaping decisions. Giving them the vote can only help.

Addressing all the issues is not diverting from any of them. It's what we need to do.
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Patrick Henry Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. As has been pointed out teens, age 16, have a better voting record where
Edited on Thu Aug-25-05 11:24 PM by Patrick Henry
they are allowed to vote.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #8
29. LOL
Still clinging to the 18 year olds are more transitional talking point.

16 years olds being less stressed than 18 year olds?

Where did youy guys pull that "factoid" from?

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Padme Amidala Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is something the human rights activist have been demanding for years
14 year olds can be sent to prison as adults for life. Then there's the 300 who died in Iraq without voting for President because they were too young during the last Presidential election of their lifetime. Everyone who has voted has had a privilege that those men and women earned but didn't get because of the current voting age laws. It's time the United States stood up for human rights - rather than winding up the last country in the world to lower the voting age.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. They have?
First I've heard of it. Maybe they should have been demanding alittle louder.
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Padme Amidala Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I haven't seen you anywhere around the human rights movement
Maybe you ought to check into it.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I didn't get the impression the human rights movement was that small
All y'all know each other?

Surely there are a few folks in the movement that you haven't seen. God knows I wouldn't be wearing a t-shirt that says I'm Little Clarkie on DU.

I'm in the Gitmo division, actually. Save the detainees!
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. These posters are making me feel old at 24
Maybe it's just me, but I see a million other issues that should demand the attention of our representatives.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. It's okay sonny
I'm 41. All I want them to do is get off my lawn.

But yeah, I agree. I can think of about a thousand other things to focus on besides this. Like where the torture pictures from Gitmo are, for instance
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. "All I want them to do is get off my lawn."
You kill me...if nothing else these threads have been a good laugh.
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Patrick Henry Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. This is why most Democratic groups back the lowering of the voting age
It is the height of inhumanity for a nation to send a person to their death without first giving them a say in their government.
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ISUGRADIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. "most Democratic groups back the lowering of the voting age"
Sorry, but you have no proof of that. I'd love to hear the list of Democratic Party organizations that have gone on the record regarding this. A handful at best, I'd venture.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
24. Stop making this sound like it's a major human rights issue
I'm sick of these bullshit platitudes, making this sound as though it's a pressing and urgent matter. I'm also tired of some comparing those of us skeptical of this into racists and worse.

And guess what? I'm 24. I'm not that old. Eighteen is the age at which people are considered adults for most purposes.

And no, people shouldn't be allowed to serve in combat until they are eighteen either so I'm consistant there.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. I wouldn't mind, at least
having some of these platitudes proven with links to report and studies and such. Perhaps then they wouldn't seem so much like they'd been pulled out of somebody's butt.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. Facts are good.....
"Then there's the 300 who died in Iraq without voting for President because they were too young during the last Presidential election of their lifetime."

And if the voting age changed to 17 this wouldn't change anything. Even if it was lowered to 14 it is possible for someone to serve without having voted.

"rather than winding up the last country in the world to lower the voting age."

Do you guys have ANY facts or are you just alternately reading from a a script or pulling stats out of your butt.

The vast majority of countries in the world have 18 or older as the voting age.

Here's a link to a brief list.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/v/vo/voting_age.htm
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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. Bad idea.
It only makes sense to permit voting rights to those who are legally responsible for themselves. The person needs to be of legal age to sign a contract without parental witness and/or consent.

I do not understand the enthusiasm for this harebrained scheme. One of the posts in this thread supporting the teenage vote went down the road of "younger people would be less stressed at election time than 18 year olds". Now that's just plain silly. If this is one of the rationales that younger kids are using to justify their ability to make good voting decisions, then it's one of the best reasons why 16 and 17 year olds should NOT get the vote. Using that rationale, then most of us stressed-out oldsters shouldn't be allowed within 200 feet of a polling place!

Voting age should be tied to legal age. It's that simple.
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Patrick Henry Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. 16-year-olds have families, attend college, work, drive and pay taxes
Edited on Thu Aug-25-05 11:25 PM by Patrick Henry
Seems like they are pretty responsible to me.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. So do permanent residents
and they don't get to vote either.

In fact, I think there's a better case to be made for letting permanent residents vote than minors (and yes, under 18 is still a minor for most issues).

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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. I'm not saying that some 16 year old persons
are not responsible. In fact, I never said anything about whether any or all 16 year old persons are responsible.

All I said is that the voting age should be the age of majority. The age where you do not need parental consent to enter into a contract. The age where you can enter the Armed Services without a parent's consent.

It simply makes sense that the right to vote should be granted at the age generally recognized in the US as the age of majority.

Those two years make a big difference, developmentally, at that point in time.

Incidentally, I also think the drinking age should be 18.



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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. Given the American teenagers I have seen lately --
Edited on Thu Aug-25-05 07:59 PM by newswolf56
most of them unbelievably rude, astoundingly sewer-mouthed, physically pushy, walk-on-your-heels lacking in any concept of personal space, universally hateful to their elders, and above all dumbed down to zomboid idiocy by corporate public schools -- this sounds to me like a one-way ticket to instant fascism: politics as another expression of the teen plagues of lockstep conformity and vindictive faddism. Though I'm in my 60s, I remember high school all too well -- and I wouldn't have wanted the preening jocks and simpering socialites of 1957 deciding a real election any more than I would willingly give that right to the sullen, dead-eyed, possessions-are-everything adolescents who are so often symptomatic of today. Eighteen is young enough, whether to vote or to drive.


Edit: typo
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VADem11 Donating Member (783 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. Well
Don't be condescending towards teenagers and assume that they can't handle voting. That is one reason why teenagers resent adults. More adults embody the qualties that you list than the teenagers I know. I was in high school a few years ago and I wouldn't hesitate to lower the voting age.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
17. The more I think about it the more I Favor it.
If Bush is what happens when "the adults are in charge." It's past time to bring the kids in. The younger the better. Has anyone ever tried to lie to a child? LMAO.

If Bush won't talk to Cindy. What about a delegation of our children? Maybe Bush can explain this to them. Send them on a field trip to DC. Call Bush to the Senate Floor durring their Visit. Let him explain it to them there. At worst Cheney will finially show up for the GOVERNMENT job he was elected to.
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Patrick Henry Donating Member (73 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-25-05 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. This is an excellent idea
I'm certain a number of kids would love to meet with the dictator and demand that explanation.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
31. A better plan is moving to a 2- to 3-day election weekend, not 1-day event
18 is fine. Younger than that and they are worried about driving/dating/dances/etc.
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newswolf56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. This is a superb idea. Especially since it gives the vote back...
to all those who have been denied it by their employers -- a far more common phenomenon than people realize.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Longer poll hours are fine. 16 & 17 year olds have better voting trends
than 18 to 24 year olds where they've been allowed to vote. 18 to 24 year olds are the ones in transition with less time for voting. However, taking the voting right away from 18 to 24 year olds is almost as absurd as refusing it to 16 and 17 year olds.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Can you produce a link to back that statement up?
Edited on Fri Aug-26-05 04:35 PM by rinsd
"18 to 24 year olds are the ones in transition with less time for voting.'

Less time for voting? When voting takes place maybe 2 or 3 times a year(including local elections)?

Where is this study showing better voting trends?

On Edit: You have supplied the link to the talking points...and that isn't a study of voter trends....those are one year snap shots in different locations.

I've been hard on you but here's a piece of advice. Stop bending stats and wording to support your cause. It's easily verified and actually hurts your cause when you are proven wrong.
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
36. Some pretty strong talking points. Question: Are adults too dumb to vote?
Edited on Fri Aug-26-05 04:08 PM by genius
Why the Voting Age Should be Lowered to 16


Youth NEED the Right to Vote
80% of 16 and 17 year-olds work at some point before graduation. 1 61% of teenagers work during the school year.2
Youth pay taxes but have no say about how much or how that tax money is spent.
Youth will be deeply affected by decisions about social security, but cannot vote to insure that the money they contribute today will be there for them when they retire.
Youth have strongly held views about the environment, but have no voice in determining the leaders who must protect it.
Youth are most directly impacted by education policy. As students, they have the best perspective to determine what reforms are needed but have no input in deciding what changes are made.


Youth Have the Maturity Needed to Vote
Youth become physically mature at an earlier age. For example, the average age of puberty has declined from 16 ½ in the mid 19th-century, to 15 in 1900 to about 12 today.3
Today’s youth are smarter than their parents’ generation. Studies conducted by Professor James Flynn have shown that IQ scores grew by 17 points during the period 1947 through 2001, with the increase accelerating to 0.36 points per year in the 1990’s.4 In other words, a child scoring in the top 25% in an IQ test today, would score in the top 3% of an IQ test in 1932.5 Experts have suggested an explanation to this trend: the explosion of new media, television and particularly the internet, which challenge youth’s cognitive senses and problem solving abilities.
Youth are treated like adults in many respects. 16 year-olds are allowed to drive in 48 states.6 Youth 16 (or even younger) are tried as adults for serious crimes in many states. As a result, the number of juveniles in adult prisons grew by 47% during a mere five year period (1990-1995).7 If youth can be punished like adults, they should also be given the rights of adults.


Youth Have the Political Knowledge to Vote Intelligently
Youth are enrolled in school, taking history, government, law and/or economics.
When students are taught a full course curriculum, they come to know MORE about politics and government than adults.
Example: Students who took the comprehensive We the People (“WTP”) constitutional law program scored BETTER than adults 18-80 in knowledge of government and politics. See Table below.

Question WTP Students Answering Correctly
Adults (18-80) Answering Correctly
Could name the
vice-president 96% 74%
Understood the
meaning of “Judicial Review” 96% 66%
Knew Two-Thirds Veto
Override Requirement 87% 34%
Knew which
political party controlled
the House of Representatives 68% 68%
Could explain
political party ideology 87% 57%



High school students are more than qualified enough to vote: the federal Voting Rights Acts of 1965 (42 U.S.C. § 1971(c)) states that:

any person who has not been adjudged an incompetent and who has completed the sixth grade in a public school in, or a private school accredited by, any State or territory, the District of Columbia, or the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico where instruction is carried on predominantly in the English language, possesses sufficient literacy, comprehension, and intelligence to vote in any election.
Thus, if a 6th grade education is adequate for voting purposes, certainly the 10th grade education most 16 year-olds possess would be more than adequate.

Unknowledgeable Adults Are Not Kept from Voting
Even ignoring the issue of youth knowledge of politics, adults who are ignorant about political issues are not kept from voting. For example, polls have shown that about 70% of adults can’t name their own state’s senators.8 Another poll found that three-quarters of Americans could not name their House member.9 A third showed almost two-thirds of adults could not name any United States Supreme Court justices.10 Adults are even more confused on the issues themselves. In the Washington Post poll, adults mistakenly thought foreign aid made up 26% of the budget (it made up only 2%).11 If adults lack even basic knowledge of who represents them and how the government works, how can youth be classified as not knowledgeable enough to vote?
Youth Voting Will Increase Adult Turnout
Studies taken on the Kids Voting program12 have shown that the mock election program has increased parental turnout. A 1996 survey found that that between five and ten percent of respondents reported Kids Voting was a factor in their decision to vote. This indicated that 600,000 adults nationwide were encouraged to vote by the program.13 Another study found that this increase in voting resulted from dinner-time conversations between parents and children over political issues learned from Kids Voting, and this impact was strongest among the group least likely to vote, parents from lower socio-economic backgrounds.14 Thus, a lower voting age will increase turnout among those least likely to vote by encouraging parents and children to discuss political issues that might otherwise have gone ignored.
Youth Want the Right to Vote and Will Turnout
73% of 12-17 year olds in a Washington Post survey were very interested or fairly interested in politics. 95% of these young people viewed voting in a presidential election as very important or fairly important.15
Teens support a lower voting age: 73% of 12-17 year-olds in a 1991 Minneapolis mock election supported a voting age of 16.16
Teens will turnout and vote:
Germany- Several states lowered the voting age to 16 for local elections, with higher turnout for voters under 18 than for 18-24 year-olds.
City of Hanover (1996) 16-17 year-olds (56.5% turnout), 18-24 year-olds (49.1% turnout).17
City of Braunscheig (1996), 16-17 year-olds (50.4% turnout), 18-24 year-olds (44.5% turnout).18
State of Saxony-Anhelt (1999) (all major cities), 16-17 year-olds (33% turnout), 18-21 year-olds (32% turnout), 21-25 year-olds (24% turnout).19
Austria- Several Austrian provinces also lowered their voting age to 16. 16-17 year-olds have turned out well. For example, in the City of Graz, January 2003- 16-17 year-olds turned out at a higher rate (58%) than the total voter turnout (57%).20
USA- For the most part, turnout among American youth must be examined by comparing mock election turnout number with adult turnout.
Minneapolis School Board Election (1991)- 12-17 year olds (40% turnout ), Adults (5.6% turnout); 21
Washington D.C. (1994) (Kids Voting Mock Election)- students (50%+), Adults (40%); 22
Baltimore, 2003- an actual election where some 16 and 17 year-olds were able to vote in the mayoral primary because they would be 18 by the time of the general election (more than one year later). Turnout: 35% of registered 16 and 17 year-olds turned out versus 36% of the general population.23


A Voting Age Under 18 is Constitutional

The 26th Amendment to the United States Constitution states that:
The right of citizens of the United States, who are eighteen years of age or older, to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of age.
There is agreement among distinguished constitutional law professors such as Vikram Amar (University of California-Hastings)24 and Katherine Hunt Federle (Ohio State University)25 that the 26th Amendment only prohibits a jurisdiction from setting a voting age above 18, it does not prohibit a voting age under 18.



Sources

Studies: Light 1995; Steinberg and Cauffman 1995; The Evansville Courier, August 10, 2003, p. B3.
Ovetta Sampson “Paying a Price/ Teens at Work Juggle Assets and Liabilities,” Houston Chronicle, January 11, 2001,
“Today’s Puberty is Too Fast for Society,” James P. Pinkerton, Newsday, April 2, 1998, A57.
“Dome Improvement,” Steven Johnson, Wire Magazine, May 13, 2005.
“I.Q. Scores Are Up, and Psychologists Wonder Why,” Trish Hall, New York Times, February 24, 1998.
“State by State Driving Rules for Teenagers,”
Deanie C. Allen, “Trying Children as Adults,” Jones Law Review, 2002.
“What to do, what to do?,” Ralph Reiland, Pittsburgh Live Column, October 24, 2004, at http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/opinion/columnists/reiland/s_264990.html
Richard Morin, “Who’s in Control? Many Don’t Know or Care; Knowledge Gap Affects Attitudes and Participation, The Washington Post, January 29, 1996, A1.
“Nearly two-thirds of Americans can't name any U.S. Supreme Court Justices, says FindLaw survey,” PR Newswire, Europe, June 20, 2003; Survey by Findlaw, Press Release, June 20, 2003, at http://company.findlaw.com/pr/2003/062003.scotus.html
Richard Morin, “Who’s in Control? Many Don’t Know or Care; Knowledge Gap Affects Attitudes and Participation, The Washington Post, January 29, 1996, A1.
Kids Voting is a program operating in 29 states and the District of Columbia, which combines a civics curriculum with an opportunity for students to cast mock election votes at the polling place.
John Stuart Hall, “Elections and Civic Education, the Case of Kids Voting USA”, National Civic Review, Spring 1998, 79.
Johnson, Thomas J. Editor. Engaging the Public: How Government and the Media can Reinvigorate American Democracy. Rowan & Littlefield Publishers, Inc. (Lanham, Maryland, 1980), 160.
Sharon Warden, “Teen Views on America and Politics”, Washington Post, October 30, 1992, E1.
Education Week on the Web, November 27, 1991, Web Site. http://www.edweek.org/ew/vol-11/13boxh11 (No longer available on the internet).
"Teens Show Voting Desire in Germany". Phoenix Gazette. September 19, 1996.
United Kingdom’s Electoral Commission Summary, April 2004, at 16.
Ibid at 17.
Local Governments in Austria, the Politico-Administrative System and New Developments since the 1990’s,” Diputacio Barcelona xarxa de municipis, at 52.
Education Week on the Web, November 27, 1991, Web Site. http://www.edweek.org/ew/vol-11/13boxh11 (No longer available on web).
Richard C. Tenwolde, “Teaching Ballot Box Practices”, Washington Post, November 17, 1994, J1.
Berkeley, California Youth voting Bill," Kriss Worthington and Darryl Moore, considered May 24, 2005 at http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/citycouncil/2005citycouncil/packet/052405/2005-05-24%20Item%2025.pdf
“Senator Seeks Lower Voting Age,” Kate Folmar and Julie Patel, San Jose Mercury News, March 9, 2004.
“Why Can’t Older Kids Vote?” Katherine Hunt Federle, E-Book on Election Law, at http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/ebook/part1/eligibility_rules05.html


http://youthrights.org/votetalkingpoints.shtml
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Thank you for the links (edited) (nt)
Edited on Fri Aug-26-05 04:28 PM by rinsd
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. Why did they change the wording of the Voting Rights Act?
"High school students are more than qualified enough to vote: the federal Voting Rights Acts of 1965 (42 U.S.C. § 1971(c)) states that:

any person who has not been adjudged an incompetent and who has completed the sixth grade in a public school in, or a private school accredited by, any State or territory, the District of Columbia, or the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico where instruction is carried on predominantly in the English language, possesses sufficient literacy, comprehension, and intelligence to vote in any election."

Thus, if a 6th grade education is adequate for voting purposes, certainly the 10th grade education most 16 year-olds possess would be more than adequate."

They have re-written this clause (I have bolded the changes).

It actually reads

"2) No person who demonstrates that he has successfully completed the sixth primary grade in a public school in, or a private school accredited by, any State or territory, the District of Columbia, or the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico in which the predominant classroom language was other than English, shall be denied the right to vote in any Federal, State, or local election because of his inability to read, write, understand, or interpret any matter in the English language, except that, in States in which State law provides that a different level of education is presumptive of literacy, he shall demonstrate that he has successfully completed an equivalent level of education in a public school in, or a private school accredited by, any State or territory, the District of Columbia, or the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico in which the predominant classroom language was other than English"

This deals with proficiency in English as a standard for voting. The youth advocates have changed the wording and meaning of the text.

Links:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/statutes/voting_rights_1965.htm

http://www.historicaldocuments.com/VotingRightsActof1965.htm

And the "studies" on voter turnout reflect one year which may or may not have been the first year this was granted.

Also the whole stupid adults thing?

It's not real hard to retain knowledge after one's been given an instruction course in the subject.

I expect students currently in high school history classes to have a better knowledge of the subject material. That's what our taxes pay for.

And lastly, because of the tactics of yourself and you co-horts which included repeating talking points ad naseum even when they were disproved, vilifying anyone who disagreed with this and finally rewriting of one of the most important piece of legislation in the 20th century to more easily fit your purposes, I am even less likely to support youth voting. We have enough little brown shirts that can vote already.
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Padme Amidala Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. It's important to have pity and compassion for the adults in America
Edited on Fri Aug-26-05 04:52 PM by Padme Amidala
The adults are clearly part of a group that is less well educated and less informed. The ones who want to prevent intelligent teens from voting are also less mature. But we should not hold this against them. Adults should be able to retain their voting rights.

I was thinking that perhaps the teens could start some schools for the adults so that they could help the adults be better informed voters.

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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. LOL....
Yes, students who had taken a course and then tested did better than adults who had not been through the course.

Logic apparently comes with age.
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HellRaiser Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #43
45. Obviously not.
Your statement about logic has none.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. okay.....
I'm all for teaching history and civics extensively but why does it surprise you that one group taking a course then tested on material from the course did better than a group that did not take such a course? It's a logical no brainer.

"Example: Students who took the comprehensive We the People (“WTP”) constitutional law program scored BETTER than adults 18-80 in knowledge of government and politics. See Table below."
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ISUGRADIA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
44. Thank you sincerely...This is the first I have seen any researched
information to provide support to the idea that the voting age should be lowered. The more specific information is on the age group and WHY they are capable of voting, the more your case can be argued on a mature level.

The point about the constitutionality of this is important. States that were trying to keep the voting age at 18 in 1972 caved when the 26th amendment was passed. Otherwise they would have had to been separate ballots for state and federal elections.

You might see if Kucinich and others in Congress would be willing to sponsor a federal amendment to lower the voting age to get a national debate started on the issue.
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LifeDuringWartime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-26-05 04:42 PM
Response to Original message
41. i would rather raise the age for military service
Edited on Fri Aug-26-05 04:43 PM by LifeDuringWartime
than lower the voting age. i did read somewhere else on DU about how everyone should have a chance to vote for president before they die in a war. this whole thing is very interesting, and i know i really really really wanted] to vote against Bush last year.

missed it by that much (demonstrates with thumb and forefinger).
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genius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-28-05 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Are you planning to raise the age for enlistment to 22?
Otherwise, the voting age needs to be lowered from 18 in order for these people to have a chance to vote for President before they die.
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