Another False Dichotomy: "Stay the Course" vs. "Cut and Run"

[Sparkly]

The Republican party are masters of the false dichotomy, and they've done it again. It seems too many DUers are going for it, talking heads like Tweety hammer on it, and most Democrats haven't formed a clear, concise reponse that refutes the frame itself.

And without refuting the frame -- the false dichotomy -- there can be no discussion. The Tweetys and Mehlmans and Hannitys of the world will just keep coming back with, "So you're pro-war/So you think we should cut and run." "So you support the president/So you think we should just leave." "So you voted for the war/So you didn't think Saddam was a threat."

In this boiled-down, black-and-white, simplistic view, there are only two possibilities on Iraq before the invasion. Voting for the IWR, they say, meant voting for everything BushCo DID with it. Voting against it meant advocating 'doing nothing.' Nothing inbetween. (And for those not in Congress, it's "How would you have voted?")

In this dichotomy, there are only two possibilities on Saddam. He was Bad, or he was Good.

There are only two possibilities on action now: Bush's Way, or Cut and Run.

There are only two possibilities on philosophy: Pro-War or Anti-War.

Please -- DON'T buy into this GOP SPIN!!! There were, are, and will always be options, alternatives, and complicated considerations involved in all these questions. Let's get BEYOND their false dichotomy, beginning with refuting the frame itself.

[barbaraann]

1. Also, "You're either with us or with the terrorists."

Wrong--we're against the terrorists AND the BFEE. We're FOR ordinary people.

[Sparkly]

3. Thank you!!

That's it, too.

Also, if you didn't support BushCo's invasion, you don't think Saddam was bad -- so you get the dramatic speech about how bad he was ("evil tyrant, gassed his own people," etc.)

It's an elaborate game of "gotcha."

[barbaraann]

5. You're either a Republican or a degenerate.

That's a meme they push, too.

[Sparkly]

6. "You either support the preznit or you hate the troops."

And/or, you aren't patriotic.

[stellanoir]

2. Wes Clark is saying

the same thing on MTP right now. He's stressing really intelligent alternate approaches which sadly, IMHO this misadministration is completely incapable of executing.

[bahrbearian]

9. Then you have McCafery sitting across from him, saying he

supported the invasion a everything will turn out O.K.

[Sparkly]

13. Just heard Russert ask another familiar question:

"Would we be better off with Saddam still in place?" (The alternative to BushCo's blunder being leaving Saddam in place, without doing ANYthing, of course.)

[bahrbearian]

29. Oh so we're playing "Gotcha" ?

We really need a good reply to "Would we be better off with Saddam still in place?"

[Sparkly]

30. Definitely, it's all about traps and "Gotcha's!"

One reply might be to answer the question with a question: "Was this blunder the only way to deal with Saddam?"

[Poiuyt]

34. Someone here mentioned that it's like a $500 ice cream cone

Sure it's good, but it certainly isn't worth the price you have to pay.

[Totally Committed]

20. Maybe this program will FINALLY convince the nay-sayers that

not all Generals are alike... that Wes truly IS a Democrat (he was the only one at THAT table, I can tell you that), and that there is a real difference in what he's saying and the Administrations' "stay the course" doctrine.

TC

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

25. You'd think so, but I'm not counting on it

Some may never hear Wes regardless of what he says, because of their preconceived notions about who he is.

[Sparkly]

26. True, that.

"All Generals are Pro-Military = Pro-War = Republican."

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

27. Yep, It is an unfortunate blind spot by

some folks I would agree with in many ways other than Wes.

[sam sarrha]

4. it is an Islamic Republic.. theyre in the hands of Allah now, GET OUT.!!

[sandnsea]

7. It's OUR spin

We did it this time, NOT the GOP. "immediate withdrawal" Don't blame the GOP for what the left did.

[Sparkly]

10. There are people calling for immediate withdrawal, yes.

I don't see that as the problem. The problem is buying into the view that it's either that, or it's Chimpy's way; that people who don't advocate immediate withdrawal are NOT necessarily advocating Chimpy's "resolve."

[sandnsea]

14. That makes NO sense

The people calling for immediate withdrawal DO see it as either/or. It's either withdraw NOW or you're a warmongering stay the course DLC Dem. Ignoring the reality of how the left contributes to framing problems isn't helpful either.

[Sparkly]

19. I'm agreeing.

The problem isn't the view that it's best to withdraw -- that can be debated. The problem I'm talking about is when that -- or the opposite view-- is coupled with the characterization you just mentioned. So whether from the right or the left, it's the false dichotomy -- locking all other views in simplistic little boxes -- that needs to be addressed first. And yes, that has everything to do with the characterization that people who don't advocate immediate withdrawal are "warmongers," etc.

[sandnsea]

22. Here's the deal

We can't do jack about how the GOP frames the issue, that's the problem I had with your original post.

So the only alternative is to get the left to change their frame. Cindy started out on a "hold Bush accountable" vigil. I wish she'd have stuck to it. That's how we could have avoided the trap you just described.

[lastknowngood]

8. We stayed the course for 15 years in Viet Nam and then we cut

and ran.

[NRaleighLiberal]

11. Black and white thinking, taken to an art form...perfect for fools

[barbaraann]

12. And the idea is pounded into dittoheads as "fair and balanced."

as if there are always only two simple sides to any issue. The right side and the wrong side...the good people versus the liberals.

Rinse and repeat a million times over and you have a large proportion of the populace rabidly us-or-them.

[sandnsea]

16. Don't forget

The good "out now" liberals versus the DLC warmongering stay the course Dems.

[barbaraann]

21. Divide and conquer.

It's worked for the elites for millenia. Let's hope we can put a stop to that now.

[FloridaPat]

15. Everyone said the same thing during the Vietnam war. They should

just rerun those shows, except they're in black & white. All this crap about supporting the president in time of war. Every time that's said, the retort should be the reminder that the president got us into this war by lying. That should be said over and over. I hate the people that say it doesn't matter how we got there, we have to fix it. It does matter. A lot. And that war president should be impeached.

[Tom Rinaldo]

32. Yes the War President should be impeached

But he can't be unless we regain Congress in 2006. That's point Number One.

And what about the position that it DOES matter how we got there and that We DO need to fix it? I see you possibly creating another dichotomy here. Advocating "fixing it" does not necessarily mean advocating "staying the course". That is a false linkage of concepts. I will not be so narrowly confined as to define any position that calls for the continued presence of any American forces in Iraq as automatically equating with "Staying the Course".

The Bush Administration Course includes keeping American military in Iraq, that is obvious, but it also calls for destabilizing the entire region through overt antagonism toward Iraq's neighbors which in turn fuels those nations motivation to have Iraq remain a failed state. We can not stay that course. And yes Bush should be impeached.

[johnaries]

17. My question is, stay WHAT course?

Bushit refuses to give us any kind of a course to follow, except to continually used our troops as cannon fodder. How can you stay a course that isn't defined? We don't need a "timeline", we need benchmarks and milestones. We need an exit strategy instead of rhetoric.

You make an excellent point. We need to re-define the discussion.

It's a matter of having a plan vs having no plan.

[sandnsea]

23. Benchmark, milestone success strategy

The Iraq for the Iraqis strategy. What is so wrong with trying to come up with something positive to call the strategy?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

18. Black and white thinking is on the surface easier

But inherently simplistic and inaccurate.

We have those also who want to say anyone who voted for the IWR was totally wrong and in support of everything Bushco.

Also another part of the Neocon gotcha game is if you criticize Bush, Rummy, any of "our" guys...they demand self-righteously that you must have written, demonstrated against etc Saddam or whoever they wanna use as the straw man of the day.

The real point should be we have an obligation to comment and be active in this democracy about our own leaders. We don't have, most of the time, that kind of influence with the rest of the world.

When you live in the one remaining Super Power, that is even more true. Our government wields so much power and influence. When they do things, they have enormous global ripples.

Unfortunately what seems to work better in discussion with the gotcha Neocons is to turn it around and confront them back on something they will reluctantly agree was wrong and demand to know how and when they expressed their disapproval of that.

[Dinger]

24. Good Point Sparkly, And Here Are Some Of Mine . . .

Your are for peace or you are pro-W-ar.
You support your country or you support your party (I like that one).

[leetrisck]

28. bush has already "cut and run" one too many times

for anybody to have any confidence any him. He is a wimp, loser and now he expects are military to die for him and that's what it amounts to - "die for bush"

[FrenchieCat]

31. Hell Bush is cutting and running from Cindy Sheehan....

So it won't be so difficult for him to do that just before the 2006 elections...I reckon.

[kentuck]

33. Right ! Unless you stand with the disastrous and deadly policy....

we are now following in Iraq, then you must be one of those "cut-and-runner"? Yep, that's the ticket!

[Sparkly]

38. Yup, and unless you want to "cut and run..."

then you must think BushCo's disastrous policy is correct.

[LandOLincoln]

35. Hey Sparkly--I didn't see this excellent thread

before I started my own, but they go together very well.

Have a look--mine's the one that begins "Hey DU..."

Can't wait to see what you and hubby come up with. This is gonna be fun.

[McCamy Taylor]

36. Many Americas would be happy with "Cut and Run." They saw that

the worst that happened after the fall of Saigon was lot of great oriental restaurants and some very productive Southeast Asian immigrants and that after a lot of struggle Viet Nam finally got its act together.

[FrenchieCat]

39. Iraq is not Vietnam.....

We didn't go into Vietnam for the oil.....

and that is a great big difference.

[FrenchieCat]

37. bumper sticker to add pressure to the stoopid guy in the WH!

"BUSH, CORRECT THE COURSE IN IRAQ,
GET OUT, OR STEP ASIDE!"