How much did John Kerry have to do with stopping the Vietnam War

[LittleClarkie]

I was just over at DailyKos, where Kos, who often has interesting things to say, but often also sticks his foot in his mouth, has riled up the hippies.

He apparently identified himself as being not anti-war per se, just anti-this war. I've heard that distinction before. Some take it on a war by war basis as to whether an individual war was justified.

Alrighty then, he coulda stopped right there and been fine.

But then he had to make a slap at the "hippy dippy" point of view.

So said hippies are somewhat pissed at him at the moment. Well, there was a diary over there from one of the said hippies, angry at Kos for also giving John Kerry too much credit for stopping the war or being in the movement back in the day.

"Kerry who?" he said, and commented that most of the folks in the movement didn't know who Kerry was.

My comment back was "But was anyone else featured on the Nixon tapes?" I could have added, did Nixon find an attack dog to counter anyone else in the anti-war movement (O'Neill)?

So I didn't think that point was terribly fair. But I wasn't there. So I thought I'd open up the question to y'all and get your opinions.

What do you think?

[eallen]

1. Nixon had an enemy's list. Quite a few people were on it.

:hippie:

[MadeinOhio]

2. I would never say Kerry or any other lawmakers were responsible....

No one took responsibility for ending the vietnam war except the protestors and rioters, who showed the occupation was inherantly illegal.

John Kerry was one name among millions. He is irrelevant to the point and I believe everything spouted on Kos has now brought division to this mess, where it should be clear that being anti-war means being anti- ANY illegal wars. Including the bay of pigs and other fumbles.

[blm]

4. Kerry was a veteran protesting at the time. Lawmakers were ineffective as

they were easily demonized in the press like Fulbright and McGovern. Much like they are today when they speak against BushInc.

[MadeinOhio]

9. Yes but I believe he was running for senator and becoming a lawmaker.

He did a great service, but as history tells, he was not the only one to fuel full protests against the vietnam lockstepped disaster.

[blm]

10. Noone would say he was. People need to learn to comprehend what they read

and Kos needs to learn to stop throwing out derogatory attacks while losing his main point.

Kerry ran for senator in 1984.

[karynnj]

16. He spoke before the Senate in 1971

He ran for Senate in 1984. He did run for Congress about a year after his testimony but he and his wife were subjected to harassment and a dirty tricks campaign Colson was involved in.

[blondeatlast]

18. I was barely old enough to remember, but that is the best analysis

of his impact.

Having veterans come back and make anti-war statements gave the protestors credibility they hadn't had before, including so-called "establishment" credentials. It was no longer about not wanting to go, it was about getting out.

[Toots]

23. He did testify before Congress and was quite influential in the VVAW

Kerry probably did more to end the war than most but it was a joint effort.

[blm]

3. Not a Kos defender but I think he said (awkwardly) that the peace movement

didn't really get anywhere with the public UNTIL the veterans joined in on their return from Vietnam, and Kerry got it further BECAUSE he was wellspoken and deliberative.

I see that as the reason Cindy is effective today, too. She speaks thoughtfully and with the weight of her military son's sacrifice on her shoulders. Even when the RW tries to label her as shrill it doesn't work.

To use hippie as a derogatory term is inexcusable and actually ruined the point that Kos WAS trying to make. For THAT he does deserve criticism.

Kos and his forum shouldn't have turned it into a Kerry v. hippie issue at all. That's just plain stupid.

[LittleClarkie]

8. He's good at that

Diplomacy and tact are not the dude's strong suits, let's face it.

I just figured that the movement itself could think what it wanted about John Kerry, think him an opportunist and whatnot. But to deny that he had any impact whatsoever just seemed ludicrous. It didn't matter that those in the movement may or may not have known who he was or thought he was important. If he put a bug up Nixon's butt, I reckon he had an impact.

[Eloriel]

15. But he is pretty good with arrogance.

There was no ONE thing that ended the war, nor ONE person (or even group); it was an accumulation of things, most of all public sentiment souring, and the realization that it wasn't likely to ever get better. Just like this war: it's not likely to improve under any reasonable or practical conditions or events. (IOW: it's a quagmire.)

I think blm's point is right on: the anti-war movement got a considerable boost from returning veterans. They above all have credibility no one can question or detract from.

And so do Gold Star Mothers.

[democracyindanger]

11. I think it was a diarist, not Kos re: Kerry

Kos did use 'hippie' in a derisive way, though. A diarist a couple days later wrote something about Kerry v. hippies...which then, of course, was followed by somebody else writing a diary deriding Kerry, and the circle goes round.

[blm]

12. heh...same old same old.

And they don't seem to care if the truth gets trashed with all their kneejerking angst.

Ah well...herding cats.

[LittleClarkie]

14. Thanks for the clarification

I came into it at the end, where the end diarist seemed to be blaming Kos. Wasn't quite sure why suddenly Kerry was in the crossfire. Seemed unnecessary to me.

[alfredo]

22. That's it. When the VVAW became active, it fired all of us up.

Yes it did give us credibility.

[MADem]

5. John Kerry did a shitload to end Vietnam

He brought fame to VVAW, and his testimony on the Hill really resonated with the "establishment." Though his hair was a bit long, he was young, like THEIR kids, handsome, like they thought THEIR kids were, and he was PROFOUNDLY ARTICULATE. He was not a 'fuck the pigs' and 'hell no, we won't go' protester, he sounded like he could do ten verbal rounds with William F. Buckley (one of the key blabbers of the day) and trounce him. He was a "nice young man" and "well spoken" and you could not help but listen to him. He changed minds in my family, so I know his influence was not slight. Also, he appealed to "the ladies" and not in a Dan Quayle way, either.

Articulate people were a bit more in fashion back then--Dick Cavett got great ratings, and boy, could that guy converse!

[ginnyinWI]

29. actually, he did go a few rounds with Buckley

see this ad:



I wish I could have seen this!

[MADem]

30. I just may have seen that

My poor aged mind is not what it used to be!!!!

Just look at the pics, and tell me, who would you follow?

[ginnyinWI]

31. no contest!

:) :) ;)

[FreedomAngel82]

35. Watching those old video's of Kerry

is really amazing. He's so articulate and every word that comes out you can tell is very well thought beforehand (even if it isn't it's as if) and so perfect. He was so poliet. I was watching this past weekend with my dad "Unfinished Symphony" (a documentary of the 1971 Vietnam vets protesting) and they interview Kerry after his testimony and they're walking through Concord and stuff and the person with the camera asks him about how the people are reacting and he replies and when he talks it's like poetry. Seriously. And it's still that way today I think. Sometimes I wish he was a bit more vocal. While he isn't the same 1971 John Kerry he in many ways is. I hate all the Kerry bashing. Especially of his service and what he did when he returned. He's a true hero and should always be respected. He helped change history.

[dogman]

6. Kerry was obviously a powerful anti-war spokesman.

He was featured on the Cavett show debating O'Neill for a reason. I'm sure you heard his testimony in the hearings. It would seem Kerry also takes it on a war by war basis. This would be how the majority of people take it. If anti-war was the majority there would be fewer of them, I think. My personal opinion was and is that the mothers of America stopped the Vietnam War. When they became fed up with it, it stopped. I also feel that was a highpoint in the feminist movement. I personally feel that that is the real significance of Cindy Sheehan, and that is why the Bushies are so afraid of her. A normal response would be to just point out the disagreements with her. They have found it necessary to try to destroy her just like they tried to destroy Kerry. I and others i know feel that if Kerry were the same person he was during Vietnam he might have been a strong enough force that he could not have been cheated out of the election.

[Igel]

7. Little.

It was stopped when the N. Vietnamese captured Saigon.

[bobbieinok]

38. no.......when the corporations decided they counldn't make any more $$

there, the US was out.....leaving Vietnamese and some soldiers scrambling into helicopters above the US embassy

I was in grad school then and that's what I believed at the time.....protests got bigger, Vorth Vietnamese were stronger......but the corporations were the key

Brown, Root & Company was a big player in VN then (now a Halliburton subsidiary)

[Wizard777]

13. Well according to the shrimpboats bastards.

John Kerry and Jane Fonda were the only two people in America protesting the war. They rest of the nation was happily chanting, "Body Count! Body Count! Body Count! " "Whoppee war is fun!" "I can't wait until my kid comes home on a box!" "We can't let those guys have all the fun! I wanna be the next to go!. It's my turn to ride the Tiger Pit.! I'm wanna be the next to die! You go to the back of the line! " "Let party like it's 1999." Henceforth the Prince song when he was doing that Country Formerly Known As America thing. We are just a symbol of our former selves. Nothing more.

:sarcasm:

[Dr Fate]

17. I'm more worried about how he is going to stop this fucked up war.

n/t

[Gary173]

19. Perhaps a primer

in the methods used previously, of which I was a part, and succeeded in ending an unpopular war.

http://www.hippy.com/php/article-218.html

[LSdemocrat]

20. I don't believe he had any effect on when the war ended.

[LittleClarkie]

21. There are vets now who think he did

I think he was a factor. Not THE factor necessarily, but another piece of the puzzle.

[TayTay]

24. I think that a lot of people had a hand in that

There were a lot of pebbles that turned into the avalanche that caused the American people to stop supporting that war. Kerry did play a part. And he played it very, very well. There were a lot of people who played parts, including the Gold Star Mothers who marched with the vets then.

Any true movement is as much about the parts as it is the whole. So it will be with this one. Cindy Sheehan follows in the great American tradition of people who get pissed off, totally and completely pissed off about something and decide that they have had enough and aren't going to take it anymore. They disregard the cost and take action. This is the American patriotic tradition.

[MADem]

32. Very well said

And I concur with your view, and also, I don't think Kerry thinks he played anything more than his given role.

So, we have Lila Lipscomb, we have Cindy Sheehan, we have that young man whose name escapes me in the wheelchair down in Crawford with Cindy (PAUSE FOR A SUPPLICATION: please, in the name of all that is mighty, let him be compellingly articulate, so I know his name, and even those who side with chimpy cannot help but know it too!)...and we have those speaking out from conscience, like Jackson, Sharpton, Michael Moore, and so on...but it always is the "been there, done that, experienced the grief and let me TELL you about it, right to your FACE" crew that seems to turn the tide in these matters.

You did not see a lot of that stuff during WW2. Why? Because that really was an US v. THEM scenario. You lost your kid, but hey, you knew that life would be fucked for his kids if we did not prevail. The same level of urgency does NOT apply today, and as a consequence, we have a serious divide.

[Jacobin]

25. He was one of many

Returning veterans were particularly effective since it was hard to criticize someone who had served and had seen personally how useless the entire thing was

[LittleClarkie]

26. Indeed, I guess my point was not to upgrade his involvement

but to combat what I saw as a total dismissal. In defending the anti-war movement, it shouldn't be necessary to diminish any one facet. Kerry and the vets performed a service, and Kerry performed a service in helping to organize the Dewey Canyon protest, and I'm sure his testimony didn't hurt matters either. He wasn't the be all/end all, but he did do a good thing. It was one of many good things done by folks at the time. And it should stand as such. I just didn't understand the Kos diaryist's need to take aim at it, repeating the old "opportunist" line and such.

He was a face person for the vets, the same way Cindy is a face person for Gold Star moms, and as such has taken fire for a long time for his actions in 1971. It's bad enough the Right won't let him forget it, let alone the Left saying "He did nothing." He's taken alot of shit for that nothing. He was Swiftboated for that nothing.

It may have been a small thing, but it was not nothing. And in the words of Ghandi, what we have to do may seem small, but it's important that we do it.

[jonnyblitz]

28. like i always said, I liked the 1971 john kerry.

he has lots of history since then.

[blm]

40. I liked him then and LOVED him during IranContra and BCCI and then when

he advocated in front of a congressional panel for gays to serve openly in the military and for his prescient book on terror and its funding, The New War, and his Hate Crimes legislation and his Clean Elections Bill (w/Wellstone).....and much more.

[agincourt]

33. Unlike today, unfortunately

where myths replace factual accounts.

[agincourt]

27. I really think that what ended Viet Nam,

besides public opinion, was that Nixon and Kissinger analyzed the situation and decided that Viet Nam could drain away resources to defend Germany and prevent the Sino-Soviet rift from occuring. I think they took a look and said enough.

[FreedomAngel82]

34. What I would say about this is

if Kerry wasn't so involved why would Nixon waste time looking information out on him? Why would he get John O'Neil and those guys? And yes, listen to the tape that has Nixon talking about Kerry. If you get the Sundance Channel watch the film "Unfinished Symphony." Kerry was very involved as well were the other guys.

[Leilani]

36. Kerry testified to Congress in 1971

& look at the results of the 1972 Prez election to see where the country was at that time.

The opposition to the Vietnam War took years to form & finally reach a breaking point.

No one person was responsible for the change of opinion; it was the war itself that produced a critical mass.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rfkrfk]

39. don't ignore Kerry's book, The New Soldier

The book was an eye opener.