Need info on "Sep. of Church and State"

[MelissaB]

My principal and I are having a "disagreement" about what breaks the concerning several issues. In the past he has had preachers come in and "speak" and lead prayer over the intercom, played religious music, and had students lead prayer over the intercom. Our most recent disagreement is about the music he plays over the intercom.

To make a long story short, he told me last Friday that Thomas Jefferson didn't say anything about the sep. of church and state. I'm looking for links to prove otherwise. The best I've found is Wikipedia.

Thanks in advance!

[Love Bug]

1. Try Americans United for Separation of Church and State

http://www.au.org/site/PageServer

Lots of into there.

[MelissaB]

4. I have that site bookmarked, but didn't see

anything about Jefferson. I guess I need to search more. Thank you for helping!

[Synnical]

2. Danbury Baptist Letter

http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html

Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them written in October 1801. A copy of the Danbury letter is available here. The Danbury Baptists were a religious minority in Connecticut, and they complained that in their state, the religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature - as "favors granted." Jefferson's reply did not address their concerns about problems with state establishment of religion - only that on the national level. The letter contains the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which led to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On edit: Please tell me you don't attend a public school.

[MelissaB]

3. Thanks! Having the orginal letter should do it.

I think this is what I need.

[China_cat]

6. Check out also the Treaty of Tripoli

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

[MelissaB]

8. Great link! Thank you so much. n/t

[Igel]

7. Specifically, he was saying he would not declare, nor was

authorized to declare, a Day of Thanksgiving. Such a thing would be unconstitutional.

[bee]

5. heres a site on Jeffersons views

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/qjeffson.htm

bunch of info here too
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnpintro.htm

lots of links here:
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeffsite.htm

and a couple of good quotes

Church and State
Believing with you that religion is a matter which
lies solely between man and his God, I contemplate
with solemn reverence that act of the whole
American people which declared that their legislature
should "make no law respecting an establishment
of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
thus building a wall of separation between
Church and State.
Thomas Jefferson


"In every country and in every age, the priest has been
hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the
despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection
to his own"
Thomas Jefferson, 1814

[MelissaB]

13. Those links and quotes are great.

Thanks so much!

[LiberalEsto]

9. Check out Americans for Religious Liberty

Link: http://www.arlinc.org/

They filed briefs in the issue involving the Boy Scouts' requirement that members believe in God, among other things. I used to do a little mailing list work for ARL years ago.

[Viking12]

10. Prayer over Intercom is impermissible

See: HERDAHL v. PONTOTOC COUNTY SCHOOL DISTRICT (1996)UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF MISSISSIPPI WESTERN DIVISION

[MelissaB]

11. Yeah, I know that, but I'm dealing with a (fill in the blank for whatever

works) who wants to shove his own religion down everybody's throat.

[Viking12]

14. Sounds like you need professional help...

Seriously, you should contact a civil liberties group for legal advice and/or representation.

On edit; spelling

[MelissaB]

15. I've contacted them in the past and may again in the future.

I'd like to resolve this without a media spectacle. I'm in Alabama, and he would love to look like the good guy going to jail because he is standing up for christian's. He doesn't think I am because of our views differ so much.

The last time we had a problem he said he had already talked to his wife and minister and was willing to go to jail for his beliefs.

[mitchum]

30. Well, let him put his bail money where his mouth is

He seems to know that he is violating the law, yet he persists

[MelissaB]

12. Just to let you know the type of personality I'm dealing with:

He said 9-11 happened because of America's sins...homsexuality, etc.

[bee]

16. I have heard that from people as well....

Same folks who voted for bush because he's "christian" and anti-gay. Ive actually been told this. No other reasons.. just those. And I find it quite scary. People like that, for the most part, cant be reasoned with. But good luck. I commend your efforts!

[FormerDittoHead]

17. Sorry for the stupid Q: is this a PUBLIC school?

If so, your principal's behavior is UNBELIEVABLE!

I doubt the (public) school board would approve...

[MelissaB]

18. Yes, it is.

It is unbelievable, isn't it?

[klyon]

19. Then it is illegal, no doubt

Good Luck

KL

[JDPriestly]

20. Jefferson

Short text of Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom:

To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagations of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical; the forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion, is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his patter, and whose power he feels most persuasive to righteousness; and is withdrawing from the ministry those temporary rewards, which proceeding from an approbation of their personal conduct, are an additional incentive to earnest and unremitting labours for the instruction of mankind.

Maureen Harrison & Steve Gilbert, eds., Thomas Jefferson in His Own Words, pp. 407-408 originally published s Thomas Jefferson: Word for Word, 1993 Excellent Books, ed. by Barnes & Noble, Inc. 1996 from section entitled The Opinions of Thomas Jefferson

(Brackets are mine in the above quotation.)

A little more of it:

Well aware that Almighty God has created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens or by civil incapacitations , tend only to ... habits of hypocrisy and meanness and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who, being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical , who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible , and, such, endeavoring to impose them on others, have established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time; that to compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical; that even ... forcing him to support this or that teacher of his own religious persuasion is depriving him of the comfortable liberty of giving his contributions to the particular pastor whose morals he would make his pattern and whose powers he feels most persuasive to righteousness ... ; that our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions any more than our opinions in physics or geometry; that therefore the proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which in common with his fellow citizens he has a natural right; . . . that to suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he , being, of course, judge of that tendency, will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with, or differ from, his own; that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and, finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate, errors to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them.
(Brackets not mine.)

see also http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/lynch/religious-freedom.html

Madison also strongly supported separation of church and state. As for whether what is being done violates the law, contact the ACLU. You can read up on what the law is on www.Findlaw.com Supreme Court decisions. Also just google establishment clause. This cite has some interesting information:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/amend_1.htm

This is a bit irrelevant, but here is a wonderful quote from Jefferson in a letter to Adams on Jan. 11, 1817. He is discussing his response to someone who asked him whether "the change in religion much spoken of in some circles" was to be considered authentic.

"Now this supposed that they knew what had been my religion before, taking for it the word of their priests, whom I certainly never made the confidants of my creed. My answer was 'say nothing of my religion. It is known to my god and myself alone. It's evidence before the world is to be sought in my life. If that has been honest and dutiful to society, the religion Which has regulated it cannot be a bad one.'"

Lester J. Cappon, ed. The Adams-Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, p. 506, U.N.C. Press 1959

Jefferson was a wise man. You might want to share these words with your friend. If schools could successfully teach children to be "honest and dutiful to society," religion would take care of itself.

[really annoyed]

22. Better yet, MelissaB should read this over the intercom!

I wonder if her principal would agree with that! It would be worth a try.

[really annoyed]

21. Oh my! Here is some info!

There are the sites I visit:

http://www.au.org/

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

http://www.adl.org/religious_freedom/


Here are some viewpoints from secular groups:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/

http://www.ffrf.org/

At the AU site, you can report an abuse of First Amendment rights, if you want to take that avenue.

[MelissaB]

23. Thanks, everybody!

I really appreciate all the help. I have many new links and lots of info. to read. I feel like I have to be prepared, and you have really helped me.

[hootinholler]

27. Don't just stop with Jefferson...

Here's my instant rebuttal to the 'Christian Nation' talking points:

We can expect a rasher of the talibornagain gnashing of teeth and wailing over their perceived persecution. Bring on the Lions!

In light of that, I thought it appropriate to provide a review of Church-State history in the U.S. As it happens, I have a file full of snippets of events that seem sorta relevant.

This is stuff I've gathered from all over.

The continental dollar of the Revolutionary War, was designed by Benjamin Franklin in 1776:The mottos on this coin are "Mind Your Business" and "We Are One."

The Tripoli Treaty of 1797 - States unequivocally the US is not a
Christian Nation:
ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense
founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of
enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as
the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility
against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no
pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an
interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

This is confirmed by at least 2 of the Founders. Now remember this one later:

Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress
consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of
religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in
the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an
establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains
establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to
be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them,
and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does this not
involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a
provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of
the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by
Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation? -- Madison In "Essay on Monopolies,"

Moving right along now... to Jefferson:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. - Thomas Jefferson 1/1/1802

In 1837 Congress passed an Act that specified which mottos and phrases
were allowed to be printed on currency; this included the national
motto, "E Pluribus Unum" (From Many One). The motto was not
required however.

And then the shit storm starts:

* In 1860, during the Civil War, Protestant denominations organize the 'National Reform Association', which aimed to amend the Constitution to "declare the nation's allegiance to Jesus Christ."

* In 1861, Rev. M. R. Watkinson writes Salmon P. Chase, the Secretary of the Treasury, a letter suggesting "the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins". He suggests "God, Liberty, Law" as a motto on a "beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object".

* In 1864, Congress approves "In God We Trust" for use on one-cent and two-cent coins.

* In 1865, Congress acts to place the motto on all coins.

In 1865, with the conclusion of the Civil War, a new Act was passed by Congress to allow the addition of the phrase "In God We Trust" to currency. "In God We Trust" was still not the national motto at this point and was not used on all money. It was simply allowed to be used on coins, and was used mostly on small denomination coins along with the national motto, "E Pluribus Unum."

Round one: Talibornagain.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 it read:

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

I like that, simple and to the point.

When the Federal Reserve was created in 1913 "In God We Trust" remained absent from paper currency.

In the 1950s Congress changed the national motto from "E Pluribus
Unum" to "In God We Trust" (which is how “In God We Trust”
became required to be printed of federal money), "So help me God" was
added to federal oaths (despite the fact that the Christian Bible
clearly states not to swear by God or any other person, place, or
thing when taking an oath. Matthew 5:33-37, James 5:12), and "under
God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance.

This was also about the time the Presidential Prayer Breakfast started.

* In 1957, the motto is first used on paper money.

* On July 30, 1956, a bill is passed by congress and signed by the president declaring "In God We Trust" the national motto of the United States.

Round two: Talibornagain.

John F. Kennedy September 12, 1960, address to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association:

I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute--where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.

Clearly, some people still 'get it.'

* In 1970, The constitutionality of the motto is challenged (Aronow v. United States). The Circuit court determined it "has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion".

* In 1979, Madalyn Murray O'Hair of American Atheists challenges the motto (O'Hair v. Blumenthal). The circuit court ruled "the slogan was secular".

* In 1994, The Freedom From Religion Foundation challenged the motto citing it's survey that showed a majority of Americans consider the motto religious. lawsuit was dismissed by the district Court without trial

On September 4, 2002 Michael Newdow was a guest on the popular FOX program Hannity & Colmes. On this program Mr. Newdow stated that he felt that Congressional Chaplains violated the Separation of Church and State. Sean Hannity responded by saying:

"Who hired the first chaplain for congress? ...James Madison in 1789. Did you know that?"

You want to refer to some liberal activist judge..., that's fine, but I'm going to go directly to the source. The author of the Bill of Rights hired the first chaplain in 1789, and I gotta' tell ya' somethin', I think the author of the Bill of Rights knows more about the original intent--no offense to you and your liberal atheist activism--knows more about it than you do."

Which would bring us back to the second paragraph, where Madison
Himself admits the Chaplin is a violation of Church-State separation. BWAAHAAAHAHAAAA Go bark at the moon you friggin Codger!

But, sadly it's come to this:

The Constitution Restoration Act of 2004, introduced into both houses
of Congress on February 11, 2004, "includes the acknowledgment of God
as the sovereign source of law by an official in his capacity of
executing his office."

And with this quote from CNN on March 24, 2004:

Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said there "are so many references to God" in public affairs, noting "In God We Trust" was on U-S currency and coins. She added the Supreme Court opens all its public sessions with the words, "God save the United States and this honorable Court.”

We can expect no help from the Courts with a problem so clearly subversive of the Constitution.

Sad, isn't it? I mean how well versed our public speakers are on the issue? I mean it's like calling a Wiccan a Satanist.

No wonder the talibornagain echo chamber is so freakin loud!

Folks, if you haven't figured it out, we're in round three and I'm tired of loosing.

[nicknameless]

29. Excellent collection, Hoot

Thank you for posting that!

[rfrrfrrfr]

28. I would

Get ahold of your local branch of the ACLU. This kind of thing is one of the things they do best.

[liberalitch]

24. Bill of Rights

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

Ergo...

Amendment X
The powers NOT DELEGATED (or denied by) to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, OR TO THE PEOPLE.

(In the words of FDR "to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience" or not at all)

Further more:
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

[mzteris]

25. tell him to look up

Jefferson's Bible.

That should blow his teeny little mind........

[onager]

26. Jefferson took no crap from the 18th-century Religious Reich...

You judge rightly that I am not afraid of the (clergy). They have tried upon me all their various batteries, of pious whining, hypocritical canting, lying and slandering, without being able to give me one moment of pain...

Their sway in New England is indeed formidable. No mind beyond mediocrity dares there to develop itself.--Letter to Horace Swofford, 1816

(Jefferson's original letter used "priests" instead of "clergy." But I really don't want to give the anti-Catholic kooks any encouragement. And Jefferson clearly used "priests" in a generic sense, as he was speaking of New England.)

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.--Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

I am really mortified to be told that, in the United States of America...a question about the sale of a book can be carried before the civil magistrate.

Is this then our freedom of religion? And are we to have a censor whose imprimatur shall say what books may be sold, and what we may buy? And who is thus to dogmatize religious opinions for our citizens? Whose foot is to be the measure to which ours are all to be cut or stretched?

Is a priest to be our inquisitor, or shall a layman, simple as ourselves, set up his reason as the rule for what we are to read, and what we must believe?--Letter to N. G. Dufief, Philadelphia bookseller, 1814, after Dufief was prosecuted for selling de Becourt's book, "Sur la Création du Monde, un Systême d'Organisation Primitive," which Jefferson himself had purchased.

Lots more here:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/jefferson.htm

[mzteris]

31. thanks!

you do know you're preaching to the choir!

(If you'll pardon the pun :rofl:)

I like the writings on this website about the FF's (Founding Fathers...) They debunk most of the legends about their "Christian status"........ here's the link to Jefferson.

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/six_historic_americans/chapter_2.html