Debunking RW Myth #27408749: NYC vs. NOLA

[smoogatz]

We've all heard it by now: why, the RW talking-heads ask us, was there no "looting and lawlessness" in New York City after 9/11? The difference, they tell us, must have been NYC's Republican Mayor (and likely 2008 presidential candidate) Rudy Giuliani. Rudy's tough, law-and-order leadership style kept the Big Apple calm and under control. In contrast, the wimpy (black) Democratic mayor of New Orleans simply threw up his hands and wept like a little girl, while begging the Federal Government to bail him out. Boo, wimpy Democrat whiners! Yay, strong, self-reliant Republicans!

The trouble with this "thinking" (if you can call it that) is obvious: the two disasters were simply not analogous. On 9/11, several blocks of Lower Manhattan were destroyed. Most of the city's infrastructure and most of its population were untouched. Imagine, if you will, eighty per cent of the island of Manhattan under waist-deep water. Imagine the water in Harlem up to the rooftops. Imagine the tunnels flooded, all but one or two of the bridges destroyed. No power, no drinking water, no gas--and no help from the Federal Government for four days. While we're at it, imagine any scenario in which eighty percent of Manhattanites could be successfully evacuated from the city in two days. Under those circumstances, would there be looting? Riots? Murder? Rape? Mayhem and mass disorder? You bet your big, white, Republican ass there would.

[smoogatz]

1. Self kick.

Pathetic, I know.

[BlueEyedSon]

2. No, youre rght

[nyhuskyfan]

7. Not pathetic at all...

Posts are going so fast lately, that you can be on Page 2 before anyone gets a chance to read them.

I've been furious with the Guiliani references -- he was quick with the press conferences and all, but most of NYC still had power (unlike NO), it still had communications systems operable, and everything could easily be coordinated from one area. All he had to do was go on TV and portray calm. Nagin had an ongoing crisis covering his whole city that kept getting worse and worse -- he didn't have time to pose.

I'm sure there was more Nagin could have done, but the two disasters aren't even close to similar.

[FuzzyDicePHL]

3. Well put

Any rethug who could even think for one second that the difference in mayoral responses is comparable can only be a party-line loyalist ostrich, more concerned with being correct than with human life.

[fasttense]

4. That argument was brought up from the start.

But you are correct, the two disasters are not the same. It was a bogus argument that defied logic seven days ago and is still a bogus argument now.

Besides, there were a lot of mistakes made during 9/11 but nobody talked about them. Why didn't they evacuate the towers sooner? Why didn't they evacuate the second tower? Why did they send in more fire fighters when they knew the buildings were going to come down. No body said these things because response to the disaster was immediate and it looked like New York was doing all it could. There were even some complaints by the families of 9/11 about FEMA's response after the rescue operations.

But New York didn't lose the entire city. The Mayor of New Orleans, unlike New York, had no communications, no electricity, no water, no transportation system. FEMA had to come in with New Orleans. And FEMA is a place where the repukes hide their political hacks for favors.

[Cassandra]

5. Actually there was some looting...

in the pedestrian mall underneath the WTC. They unearthed at least one crushed firetruck filled with folded jeans with the tags still on, and there were a few other scattered reports, but very few. No one saw this as a free for all. But as you say, we weren't underwater, the power and water were running, the rest of us were OK physically.
The important part of Rudy's leadership was not the toughness (although he is a control freak who loves to give orders) but his knowledge of the city and his willingness to be where he was needed for as long as he was needed. He didn't drop in for a photo-op; he was on the scene and in at least a bit of danger, as was Nagin for as long as he could effectively stay in NO. Nagin barely has a functioning city left, and that's a very different situation.

[smoogatz]

8. True enough--and I should say I applauded Rudy's response

and still do. He did a great job--I remember very clearly video of him tromping around lower Manhattan with a couple of aides, and telling one of them to put his dust mask on. He seemed absolutely unafraid. I remember also noting the study in contrast with Bush, who was cowering at the time in a bunker somewhere in Nebraska. Remember how terrified Bush seemed when he gave his first address to the nation on 9/11?

[slor]

6. Ding Ding Ding!

You Sir Are Right!

[underpants]

9. Did 9/11 have a "Oh S**T what am I going to EAT???" moment

Not that I am aware of.

[Julius Civitatus]

10. Actually, there was some looting in 9/11

I can't find the source right now, but I remember very clearly that some people were caught looting some of the shops that were buried under the WTC. It wasn't a very widespread phenomenon, and these people were prosecuted, but yes, I remember clearly it happened.

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. Moreover, the danger to the citizens lasted less than 2 hours

This is barring, of course, the danger from the toxic chemicals that went into the air, from which I will probably die one day. The real danger to the citizens began at 8:46 and ended at 10:28, with the collapse of the South Tower. Anyone who was not near the WTC site was never in much danger, period. I was three blocks south of the WTC site when the second plane hit, and I felt I was in significant danger at the time. I also felt like there was danger when the buildings collapsed, mostly from the fleeing crowds. During this time, there was almost no direction at all from anyone in a leadership position. When the South Tower collapsed, I was at South Street and Old Slip, across the street from the South Street heliport. The crowds began pouring out of the interior of the island, many running out onto the piers of the South Street seaport. For about ten seconds, it was run or get trampled. Then the dust cloud (which was thinned considerably from what you saw further to the west) enveloped us. I found myself at the gates of the South Street heliport, where many people were shaking the locked gates, trying to get out on to the heliport's surface pier. A police officer stood behind the gates, and I'll never forget the terrified look in his eyes. He was saying "Go north. Go north." That was it. that was the leadership coming from Giuliani in time of danger. because that's all Giuliani was saying at that time as well.

The original poster is absolutely correct that these situations are not in the least bit analogous. The destruction of New Orleans happened on a scale that makes the 9/11 attack look like a small, local fire. None of the machinery and infrastructure of NYC was significantly damaged, few lost electricity, nobody went without basic necessities like food and water. In fact, about five minutes after the second plane hit, I walked into a deli on the corner of Stone and Broad streets and bought myself a Snapple. Anyone who doesn't see the difference between these events is letting politics get in the way of sound judgment.

[liberal N proud]

12. Did 9/11 cause an entire city to shut down?

I think not, 9/11 effected 8square city blocks, Katrina effected an entire region and literally shut down every form of infrastructure supporting the area.

Let some repuke try that line on me...

[Usrename]

13. Not to mention Rudy's reputation was going south at the time.

He was "born again" by 9/11.