Kucinich in '08 - Because *Real* Democrats Come In Small Packages

[benburch]

http://www.kucinich.tv/video/08_18_05/mp3.mp3 <--- Listen

[Berry Cool]

1. No thanks.

My memories of when he was mayor of Cleveland are too fresh!

[benburch]

4. I guess you don't think people mature past they 20s.

For which I can only pity you.

[still_one]

5. what did he do, or NOT do when he was mayor?

[LittleClarkie]

9. Ooh, story time!

Could you elaborate for those of us not in Cleveland? I would be much obliged. Mighty curious.

[eridani]

78. So, what are your problems with his preservation of public power?

Would Cleveland be better off now if he had given in to the banks?

[still_one]

2. I like Dennis, or Russ Feingold, or Barbara Boxer

and a few others in Congress, but NOT too many others

[ladylibertee]

83. Me too .Torn between Boxer and Feingold...Im' a native Californian

who recently moved to Wisconsin.

[KingFlorez]

3. No Kucinich

Unless we want a 1972 or 1984 style embarassment at the polls

[benburch]

7. Bullshit.

He is what America needs most; An honest Democrat.

[KingFlorez]

13. He can't pull the votes we need

I doubt he could make it out of the primaries. He just doesn't have a broad enough appeal.

[benburch]

You are simply wrong.

Dennis CAN win the primaries. And he WILL win America.

[LittleClarkie]

27. What do you think stopped him the first time, if you don't mind me asking?

no snark. I was wondering why you think he didn't catch on in the last set of primaries.

All I know is when I'd listen to the morning rightwing djs try to list off all the Dems running, they'd get down to Dennis and Braun and not be able to remember their names. So I'd say at the least he has a recognition problem.

[benburch]

32. The attitude we are seeing here.

I was his Elgin, IL co-chair. If every Democrat who told me; "I would vote for Dennis, I love him, but I don't think he can win the primary" had actually voted for Dennis, he would have won Illinois.

[LittleClarkie]

36. I'm told even Deaniacs used that one on Kucitizens

and the one I've had contact with was mighty pissed about that, too.

[benburch]

43. Exactly.

Though, either Dennis or Dean would have gotten enough votes that the cheating would not have mattered and we would have rid ourselves of our national disgrace.

Instead we let the media tell us who our candidate was to be.

[LoZoccolo]

101. He would have lost the general election.

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04gen6.htm

[Clark2008]

150. Ever visit a red state? Even a purplie-red one?

I love Denny, but he has no chance.

[LoZoccolo]

99. Don't you know? If we nominate Kucinich, then all the hippies...

...who comprise the 50% or so people who don't vote, and who didn't vote in the primaries last time and might not this time, would all of a sudden come out and elect Kucinich in the general election in a landslide!

[Imagevision]

152. If your not with big biz - you don't get $$$ support end of story...!

http://downingstreetmemo.com/

[Blackwater]

170. Whether America needs him or not can be debated.

What America is going to get—well it ain’t Kucinich. I promise you that.

[Outer_Limit]

105. And what has supporting "electable" candidates gotten us?

If we don't support candidates that share our values, why should the undecideds or nonvoters vote for our candidates?

[Douglas Carpenter]

136. If the GOP runs a conservative will they loose like they did 64?

16 years after the right-wing Goldwater debacle of 64 Reagan was swept to power running against a moderate southern Democrat.

Now I agree that Sen. McGovern challenged consensus in a major way, as far as the 1972 election is concerned. Plus everything that could go wrong did go wrong.

But what is the comparison you are making with 1984? If you are implying that Mondale was too liberal. And I do not know if that is what you are implying. But if you are, please explain why you think that. What specific policies did Mondale's campaign advocate that you would consider too liberal and why that had anything to do with his defeat in 1984

[moobu2]

6. Sorry but Kucinich just isnt Persidential matirial

He may be a great person, he may be on the right side on most issues nut he just doesn’t have the personality to get elected. That's just the reality in American politics.

[benburch]

10. I respectfully disagree.

Have you ever seen him speak?

[genius]

16. Don't worry. Democrats love Dennis and will vote for him.

There are a lot of groups who are vested in seeing the corporations keep all the power and they are very busy on the Internet.

[CountAllVotes]

23. Kucinich has my vote!

Just like he did in 2004! He is the real deal and the only Democrat running that has a clue IMO!

DENNIS J. KUCINICH FOR PRESIDENT IN 2008!

FEAR ENDS HOPE BEGINS!

EVERY PERSON MAKES A DIFFERENCE! :D

:kick:

[Pushed To The Left]

134. I saw him speak earlier this year

at the Warner Grand in San Pedro. I was very impressed! He's a very powerful and passionate speaker. The crowd was really into it. It was surprising, because he seemed so quiet when I had seen him on television during the primaries.

[Nederland]

147. I've seen him speak

...and I've seen him on TV.

And there is his problem--he's just like Bush.

In front of a friendly crowd he does well. Put him in front of people that will push and challenge him and he falls apart. Did you see his interview with Chris Matthews? It was a joke. He let Matthews bully him into submission. It was such an embarrassment that he was the ONLY primary candidate that refused an hour of FREE prime time television on Matthew's subsequent University Hardball tour.

Sorry, but if the guy is afraid of Chris Matthews he doesn't deserve to be our nominee. We need a fighter, not a whiner.

[genius]

11. He's the only one who can get elected. They won't trust a war hero again

They also won't trust anyone in the Senate, especially if Roberts is confirmed. The last war hero was AWOL when it counted.

[still_one]

14. what is wrong with Russ Feingold?

[Clark2008]

154. I like him, but two divorces and his last name will

prevent him from winning.

(It should be noted that I am engaged to a nice Jewish boy from Boston and he completely agrees with my assessments of both candidates with Jewish last names and those from New England.)

[zulchzulu]

37. Says who? You?

Wow. Whatever...

[Clark2008]

151. That is such crap.

It wasn't the "war hero" part of Kerry the moderates didn't like - it was his wishy-washiness, particularly in DEFENDING his heroism.

Dems will vote for the Dem candidate, whoever that is. It's the 10 to 20 percent of the swing voters we have to convince.

[still_one]

12. neither is hillary or biden, what is your alternative?

[genius]

22. If we don't back Dennis, the independents and most Dems won't vote Dem

That's about the size of it. They are tired of sell-outs. Fortunately, we've got a man with courage that will carry the election day if he is nominated. If the right-wingers nominate their favorite Democrat, I and others who have always voted Democrat will try to talk Dennis into running anyway. He's the only man with the courage to save America.

[still_one]

25. I have no problem voting for Dennis, but would prefer Feingold

[howmad1]

56. So how come we now have pResident Prick?

Oh, I forgot, this piece of shit presidential material was selected by SCOTUS. And I suppose Nixon and Ford were also presidential material. Forget forever presidents like Roosevelt and Kennedy. They just don't make that way anymore. Nothing wrong with Kucinich. Sure wish we had him in place now.

[Outer_Limit]

107. That kind of mindset is self-defeating

"personality" encompasses what someone beleives in. Of all the candidates in the 2004 primaries, Kucinich seemed to me to beleive the most in what he said, and to have developed his platform based off his core convictions, not poll tested focus group data. People can respect those who don't agree with them on all issues, but they don't respect those who pretend to agree with them beleiving thats what they want to hear.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dweller]

18. I PROUDLY gave Kucinich my primary vote

and wished i now had for the general election.

He would have never given up. N.e.v.e.r.
dp

[moobu2]

29. I'm hardly a freeper

I'd kill myself first before I voted Republican.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

98. Not so much freepers as scaredy-cat Dems

who believe that Mondale, Dukakis, and McGovern lost because they were "too liberal," who believe that the key to winning elections is not scaring the Establishment.

I've already written more posts than I care to as a 55-year-old who actually lived through the election of 1972, but I challenge all the "Mondale and Dukakis were too liberal" crowd to specify exactly how these two inept candidates were "too liberal."

In many cases, they're just repeating DLC talking points without actually analyzing them.

What I heard on the ground was Dems staying home in 1984 and 1988 because while they sort of didn't like Reagan and Daddy Bush, they also weren't terribly inspired by either Mondale or Dukakis.

Bushboy's great strength was a core of seriously fired-up supporters, a coalition of greedy neocons and brainwashed fundies, both of whom believed fervently in his vision of low taxes, hyper-patriotism, and "Christian" morality. Such people would be moved to go out and convert others.

Diebold-Schmiebold. Whatever the final results were, the only reason Bushboy got as many votes as he did was that he had true believers who were actively for him above all others. With his horrible first term, he should have been creamed the way Goldwater was in 1964.

What did the Dems offer? The "un-Bush" who spoke in vague generalities, didn't defend himself adequately from attacks, and frankly, appeared to be just going through the motions when I saw him in two campaign appearances in Minneapolis.

Dennis Kucinich is a more inspiring speaker. John Edwards is a more inspiring speaker. Hell, even Max Cleland aroused more genuine enthusiasm when he appeared with Kerry in June 2004.

My advice to the Dems: Stop being afraid of the Republicans. Define yourselves without reference to the Republican agenda. Be as bold as they are in their own way. Be tough and scrappy and never, ever apologize if you believe that your characterization of the Republicans is correct. Be proud of being left of center. ("No one will respect you if you don't respect yourself.") Have a unified vision and make sure that all Dems present the main four or five points again and again in simple yet non-condescending language.

What's so hard about that?

[Clark2008]

153. It wasn't that they were too liberal - it was that they were from

a teeny portion of the country that the Heartland voters cannot identify with.

We need more breadbasket Dems - and I don't mean DLCers - I mean folks who are liberal, but from small towns in the South or mid-West.

We have to gain the trust of the American public again and people just THINK, true or not, that New Englanders are far too liberal and far too out of touch with small-town life (and many people in red states don't even LIVE in small towns, but they THINK they do - perception is everything).

But, yes, Dems need to stop being afraid of Republicans.

That's why I continue to support Wes Clark. He calls them on their lies, he threatens to beat the shit out of them if they try to swiftboat his heroism, he proposes new agendas and he doesn't take crap off of anyone. Of course, as a result of this, the whores in the corporate media wrote him off as a kook. But, everything the man predicted about the Iraqi War, our foreign policy agenda, hell, even the combining of emergency services under Homeland Security, has been spot on correct.

So much for a "kook."

[tritsofme]

15. I've lived through 1972 and 1984

I'd prefer we not repeat it...

[genius]

17. The only way not to repeat it is to nominate Dennis, a real man to be Pres

He's not one of the sissy kind who backed the Real ID Act, while admitting that it was the worst bill ever.

[KingFlorez]

20. He might have good ideas, but

If he got the nomination he'd get slaughtered in a lot of states.

[tritsofme]

33. What state that Kerry won in 2004

would Kucinich have a chance at winning in 2008?

I would see him losing nearly every state, but the possibility of him getting the nomination is so remote, I barely even have to consider the repercussions of his nomination.

[LittleClarkie]

67. I think we'd be looking at the elusive electoral goose egg

Yeah, that's what I'm after, aren't you?

All I have to say is if the guy was such a dynamo, then we should have seen that in the primaries. I don't want to hear about how unfair people were to him. If he's presidential material, then he should be able to rise above the excuses and show folks what he's made of.

Whether people like it or not, the man who did that was John Kerry. It might not be him next time. But if Dennis is such a hot prospect for president, then he's going to have to bring it next time.

Because if you can't make it past the Democrat primaries, you surely ain't gonna make it past the general election. The Republicans would eat him alive!

[Outer_Limit]

108. Kinda hard to shine above the rest when the MSM has

a blackout on your campaign.

[inthebrain]

77. They said simialar things about FDR

Before FDR won he was considered a no-name also ran.

eight years of Hoover sure changed that in a jiff.

[tritsofme]

80. FDR an unknown? Come on now!

He was Navy Secretary in the teens, and was the Democratic VPOTUS candidate in the 1920 election.

And he was the governor of New York from 1928 until he became President.

FOUR years of Hoover hardly changed the fact that FDR was not a "no-name" candidate.

[Freddie Stubbs]

93. Are you saying that Barbara Boxer is a "sissy" Democrat?

:shrug:

[benburch]

19. That is WHY we need Dennis Kucinich.

He is No Mondale. He is the best public speaker alive today.

[Don1]

66. You already are in 1984.

:hide:

[YOY]

21. The press would martyr him

Divorced (twice?)

and worst of all he's Catholic and has a funny Croatian last name. The whitebreads won't like it.

Personally I like the guy though.

[genius]

24. They can't He doesn't have any secrets. He's truthful about everything.

[benburch]

26. Let him speak and the press won't be able to touch him.

And he will murder JEB in the debates.

[LittleClarkie]

31. Why didn't he murder his fellow Dems in the debates

and get more of a percentage this time? Why do you think it didn't happen this last primary season?

[benburch]

38. He was excluded from debates.

Check the records...

[LittleClarkie]

45. Sure you're not thinking of Ralph there? The first googled like I clicked

when I searched for "Democratic Primary transcript 2004" gave me this from the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/transcripts/debatetranscript29.html

Dennis was definitely in South Carolina.

[benburch]

46. He certainly was not in the debates here in Illinois. nt

[LittleClarkie]

51. But he was in primary debates

So the question remains. If he had the ability to murder the competition, why did he not indeed murder them.

[Laelth]

95. Al Sharpton murdered them all ...

... in the debates, but he didn't get the nomination either.

Guess the debates don't matter that much.

:shrug:

-Laelth

[LittleClarkie]

113. Probably, but then it won't matter if Dennis murders Jeb in the debates

but I was really answering the comment that Dennis wasn't include in debates. Only one that I see. And if he could murder Jeb, then we should have seen him murdering his fellow Dems as well.

Yeah, Al was fun, wasn't he.

[Laelth]

116. The Reverend speaks the truth ...

... in a way that's clear, unambiguous, morally-forceful, and impossible to ignore. Kucinich was, principally, ignored in the Primary debate I saw, though, ideologically, he was closer to the good Reverend than any of the other candidates.

Nevertheless, in that race, against a popular incumbent, most Dems. chose the safe moderate, Kerry. I hope that in 2008 we might have the courage to nominate a real liberal. As Molly Ivins says (and she's quoting someone else who I can't remember), "Given the choice between a Republican and a Republican, the American people will elect a Republican every time." I hope we nominate a Democrat.

:dem:

-Laelth

[LittleClarkie]

123. We did

Only here would he be considered a Moderate and not a real Dem. He's definitely Liberal, with some willingness to reach across the aisle and his own ideas about foreign policy.

I hope we have the guts to nominate a real Dem too. But for me, that would be Kerry.

[Laelth]

125. My, what a small world you live in!

The United States is, very nearly, the most conservative nation in the industrialized world (judging from its politics). We still don't have universal health care ... most industrialized nations do. Free college education? Yes, in most industrialized nations, but not here. Free legal services for the poor? Yes elsewhere, not here. I could go on and on.

People seem to forget how far our politics have lurched to the right over the past 30 years. Nixon proposed Universal Health Care in 1972. Nixon, the supposed conservative, signed most of our key environmental laws. It is frightening, indeed, to think that Kerry is a liberal.

Now, don't get me wrong. I supported Kerry last year. I thought he was our best chance to win (and we needed to win, badly). But Kerry, a liberal? I beg to differ. Kerry is only a liberal in comparison to the fascists now running the government.

No offense intended. Just a little perspective.

:toast:

-Laelth

[genius]

94. Dennis missed the first of the debates to maintain his perfect attendance

record on votes. He was in all but about one of the debates. However, where Dean would get 12 minutes of debate time, they would give less than four minutes to Dennis. We need to make sure the timing is fair the next time. When polled, the debate audiences usually agreed that Dennis won. Think of it: Dennis's three minutes beat out Dean's 12. Now that's someone with a powerful delivery and message.

[LittleClarkie]

50. He was in NH too

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,109293,00.html

And Wisconsin:
http://www.wisconsindebate.com/transcript.asp

In fact, after a while, I think his whole point in being there was to effect the debate with certain important issues. I don't think HE had any illusions about his chances. But he stayed in for quite a while probably because he knew he might never have such a forum to speak from again.

[dweller]

28. President Kucinich ... rolls right off the tongue

i like it.

so will they, if they give it a chance. Of course we'll have to assume honest elections, and that alone will have the MSM/CON's jaw slacked open for a short time...

dp

[renie408]

30. I like Dennis, but he isn't electable.

Look, more than half of this country are not going to vote for someone they view as a 98 pound weakling. It is a sad truth, but to win in 2008, we are going to have to beat the un-Bush that the Repukes nominate. We are not going against Bush again, we are going against the Republican Party. We are going to have to appeal to more than 50% of the country and Kucinich isn't going to do it. I do not agree with that mindset, but ignoring it isn't going to make it go away.

[genius]

34. More than half of the country won't vote for anyone else. Stop the games

No other candidate is electable. We could go and flame the candidate of your choice with this kind of nonsense. But we are too polite. Why don't you go hang out with those who are into whatever non-progressive you support.

[renie408]

52. Huh?

Sorry, I didn't realize this was strictly a Kucinich love-fest thread. I also didn't realize that stating an opinion other than your own was impolite. I specifically said that I did not agree with that line of thinking, but I do not see how ignoring it is going to make it go away. Do you honestly think that these kinds of impressions have no bearing on how a great many people vote? How do you think Bush got elected...TWICE? Because he was the best man for the job? Or because he played on people's perceptions of what a President should be?

And flame away. PLEASE FLAME MY CANDIDATE...whenever I find one. Cause you can damn well bet that whoever gets nominated is going to get flamed by the other side.

[dweller]

57. how did *moron get elected? 2 words

DIE BOLD.

what's the perception now? a sewer rat could hold his on against the chimpincharge.
dp

[renie408]

61. Do you really think that Diebold did it all for Bush?

[dweller]

68. do you really think it didn't?

seriously. You really have some catching up to do.
google: Truthisall TRUTHISALL TruthIsAll in any of the forms.

dp

[tritsofme]

72. His singular mission

was to prove that the quote in my tagline was a mathematical proof...

[renie408]

96. Sorry I am so uninformed

*whew* this frees me up some spare time. I don't have to vote and I don't have to care and I don't have to try to figure out who to support. Cause it doesn't matter what I or anyone else does, Diebold decides who wins the elections.

No, sorry, I don't think that Diebold ALONE lost us the elections. I know I am going to get flamed because I know it is the PC thing to do here to blame election fraud for Bush's wins, but I just think that is a little too Oliver Stone for me.

Now its your turn to smirk knowingly and patronize the poor sucker because you KNOW what's what.

Whatever.

[zulchzulu]

41. Let Kucinich run...like he did in 2004...see how he does in the primaries

I like Dennis, but I'm not sure his last place standing in the 2004 primaries is going to improve much better in 2008.

If people want to support him and do grassroots efforts, I'm all for it.

[renie408]

55. I wish

we could be more cohesive. I know why we aren't and I appreciate that the very reasons we aren't are the reasons I am a Democrat. But I wish we could just skip the field of ten guys, six of whom do not stand a chance in hell and just muddy the water.

[dweller]

42. i don't agree with your mindset. Beginning with the

word 'unelectable'.

He's electable. Just put your check by his name. That's how it's done.

talk about wimps...
dp

[renie408]

48. I could tell how electable he was by how well he did in the...

primaries in 2004.

[dweller]

53. so let the past be your guide

We are looking forward at the future. To the future.
And the future is made by taking a stand.

not from feet of clay.
dp

[bee]

169. I agree with this.

Like it or not, this is a country where actors and wrestlers get elected. Regardless of his viewpoints... America is a pretty shallow country (as a whole). And most of the sheeple dont know much about a candidates viewpoints anyway. They just pick who they "like" best. It would be nice if appearance didnt play into politics... but theres no denying that it does.

[zulchzulu]

35. If you feel that way, work for him and see what happens

If he wants to run, he should go for it. If you want to do grassroots stuff for him, go for it.

[benburch]

40. I was his Elgin, IL co-chair last time.

And will gladly do that again this time.

[KingFlorez]

39. I'd like to add this

The Republicans could throw Guiliani at us and that makes New York, a state we count on to win a swing state. We need to nominate somebody who as a broader appeal than Kucinich to counteract whoever the Republicans throw at us.

[benburch]

44. There is no Democrat with a broader appeal than Kucinich.

He would get people voting who otherwise would stay home, and the GOP would be left with a Mondale.

[tritsofme]

49. Saying it doesn't make it true.

He doesn't appeal to me at all, and I cast my first vote for George McGovern.

Give me a Bill Clinton, Evan Bayh, or Mark Warner.

[genius]

76. I've seen people who hated our Party do an about-face to back him

I've seen Greens, Republians and Democrats who have given up on our Party jump into his campaign. Lifelong Democrats like myself also love him.

From your taste, it shoulds like you like Republicaan/DLC economics. Dennis's economic plan will save lives and jobs.

[tritsofme]

79. Bill Clinton's "Republican/DLC" economics created 22 million new jobs

And gave us a huge federal surplus.

That's the legacy of New Democrats.

The legacy of Kucinich type politicians is Mondale and Dukakis.

[Douglas Carpenter]

86. and just what was soooo liberal about Mondale and Dukakis? please

check the record...they ran on an essentially DLC-lite program. There was nothing visionary or progressive about their proposal.

[genius]

90. Exactly. Kucinich is very much like John Kennedy.

[LittleClarkie]

115. Can he be like Kennedy and FDR at the same time?

It would seem to me that Kennedy would be the more conservative of the two.

[NYCGirl]

141. Like John Kennedy without the sex appeal or charisma.

Maybe. Sort of.

[genius]

89. You've got your comparisons backwards. NAFTA and the WTO hurt jobs

That's what we are feeling now. Kucinich is more like Kennedy or FDR and your choices are more like Dukakis and Mondale, unable to exite the American public. Incidently, there are a lot of permanently damaged children in Northern California as a result of the environmental problems with NAFTA.

[Outer_Limit]

110. And the technological expansion of the 90's had nothing to do with that?

[Mairead]

145. No, Clinton's GOP/DLC economics gave us WTO, NAFTA, no safety net, and

several more steps toward the US police state. The new jobs were part of the 'dot com' bubble, which like all bubbles put a lot of money into a few pockets while leaving most people worse off (see Barbara Garson's Money Makes the World Go Round).

That's a piss-poor record that speaks ill of anyone who likes it.

[unless]

54. What? Edwards is very popular.

Bayh would have Indiana (Heck and maybe Ohio too)

Did Clark have some setback?

If you asked me, a recently reformed freeper, conservative Christian from the midwest who I would impulse vote for, I would vote for Bayh.

Kucinich is a PR nightmare (divorced 2x), has a bizzare name, almost no exposure outside of DU and the DNC...he'd be a better choice than Clinton, but not much.

[renie408]

65. And whether we like it or not

We are going to have to have some reformed freepers vote our way if we are going to win.

[genius]

91. Bayh is not going to win much of anything. He needs to have grass roots

support.

[cryptikchik]

58. Broader appeal than Kucinich

There are many Democrats with broader appeal than Barak Obama, John Edwards, Hillary Clinton and Brian Schweitzer to name a few. Kucinich is a fine dinner speaker and I'm sure he'll do fine for himself travelling the J/J circuit.

In the eyes of the opposition, Dennis is a very small menace and Clark is a lark. Neither one of them were even able to win the primary in their own home state. Kuchinich would probably rack up better numbers if he ran as a green.

[FrenchieCat]

103. Clark is a lark? Please, Clark won a state that was not his home state

and apart from Kerry, was the only that did so.

Late start, not competing in Iowa, smears coming from every directions, and the media literally ignoring him (a la Kucinich), and the General still managed to beat out most of the seasoned political pros in the primaries.

By the time the primaries occurred in his home state, Clark had already endorsed John Kerry.

In the eyes of the opposition, Clark was the most lethal to their "Prancing Commander in the flight suit tough on national security BS talking" President......which is why they smeared him at every chance possible. Check out how many "hack" internet sites were generated all about Clark, and you'll get a better picture as to the opposition's fear.

In addition, when Rush Limbaugh has to revert to calling Wes Clark "Ashley Wilkes", you know they didn't have much but some name calling as asernal.

The Democrats fell for the GOP inspired "he's not a real Democrat" line of bullshit, and as usual, the Dems slit their own throats in an GOP assisted mass suicide.

[Freddie Stubbs]

112. Clark wasn't on the ballot of his homestate because he had dropped out

long before the primary.

[Adelante]

139. Welcome to DU, cryptikchik

:hi:

Your information is faulty. Maybe you should read around DU a bit and inform yourself before spouting off.

[renie408]

63. Huh? Based on what?

I am really sorry, but I cannot understand what he could have possibly done to INCREASE his appeal in the past year. How did he do just one year ago?

The thing is, I LIKE DENNIS KUCINICH. I just don't think he can win the Democratic nomination much less the national election.

[Freddie Stubbs]

97. He certainly proved that in the primaries last year

[genius]

100. As the primaries went on, he did better and better.

He left Dean in the dust in some of the states. His supporters were real supporters, too. Dennis came in second in votes at the Convention.

[Freddie Stubbs]

104. He only 'left Dean in the dust' after Dean dropped out

Kind of like winning a race when you opponent doesn't show up. I suppose Kucinich has a shot as long as every single other candidate drops out before he does. Barring that, there is no evidence that a future campaign would be anything more than another embarrassing failure.

[genius]

119. Nice spin. Not accurate. But nice spin.

[Freddie Stubbs]

138. So, in which primaries did Kucinich 'leave Dean in the dust' before

Dean dropped out?

[tritsofme]

117. As the primaries went on, people spent less and less time paying attention

Kerry had the nomination sewn up, most people didn't care anymore.

[MuseRider]

47. If he runs he has my vote and my work

again. Right now I am more concerned with 2006 but he can count on me if he does run. I have never been more proud of a vote cast(we got past the first caucus). You rarely get a chance to vote for someone with no strings attached. Love the man.

[Sushi-Lover]

59. I guess its always a good idea to start early.

I would change the slogan though. Don't think we want to connect Democrats with 'small package'.

[Mz Pip]

60. The one thing he has going for him

is that he is not from the Northeast. And he seems a whole lot more passionate than Kerry ever did.

But it won't happen.

I like my Senator, Barbara Boxer, too. But it won't happen.

We need to pick up a Red State or two. I don't see that happening with Dennis, Barbara or Hillary. All would be awesome but they can't win in the South.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. Dennis's biggest problem in 2004 was a near press blackout

and a disorganized campaign staff.

I was present for three of his four campaign trips to Minnesota. We supporters had to BEG for press coverage, and even then, news stories were written about Edwards addressing 2000 people and Dennis addressing 50, even though later that day, Dennis addressed 2500. Only one out of four main broadcast stations covered any of his visits.

The New York Times always listed him as an afterthought, sometimes not at all. The only times he got any extensive coverage was when some of his "supporters" set him up with a blind date and when the NYT sent some snooty preppy type on the campaign trail with him to make snide remarks about how Dennis believed in things like peace and love.

In the TV debates, Dennis got the smallest amount of face time of any of the candidates: five minutes versus nine or more for all the others.

What I saw at the rallies (800 people the first time, 1600 people the second time, 2500 the third time) was people who were genuinely enthusiastic about a candidate. After he spoke at a banquet after the third rally, the kitchen staff all came out and wanted their pictures taken with him. He obliged, even though he had been on an exhausting schedule all day and had yet another appearance to make.

What I saw at the Kerry rallies was, "Oh, good! He's not Bush!" as opposed to the "Love Dennis, love his ideas!" spirit that prevailed at DK's rallies. Dennis is an amazing public speaker, extremely intelligent, able to think on his feet, but able to express complex ideas in a simple and vivid way without sounding condescending.

He placed well in areas where he was able to benefit from grassroots supporters who conducted guerilla campaigns.

Nationwide, he was defeated by a self-fulfilling prophecy: from the outset, the press and his own party treated him as a "minor candidate."

It struck me that his own party had him speak at the Democratic Convention just before national coverage started, so that only the C-SPAN junkies saw him.

Let him get equal press coverage to the "major" candidates, and then let's talk about him having no appeal.

[LittleClarkie]

64. The only Kerry rally I went to was Nov. 1st

and there were people there who were decidedly more enthusiastic than what you say.

But I do know a woman who said she had been burned by a vote for Nixon, and hadn't thought she'd ever vote for anyone again. Until Dennis. So he did inspire folks as you say.

[dweller]

69. Nominated, for your honest and intelligent words

and for the OP as well,


the MSMCON fears DK. I wonder why others don't question that.
dp

[mvd]

71. Another Dennis fan here

I proudly voted for him in the primary. We need someone who makes us passionate Democrats again, and Dennis certainly gets people passionate. In a perfect world, he would be elected.

[info being]

111. So what can he do to change that?

I want a President Kucinich, I supported him last time, and I'm wondering if it is possible for him to get coverage.

[Mairead]

146. *HE* can't do anything to change it. But *WE* could.

But we won't. Count on it.

[Nederland]

148. Exactly

Kucinich's inability to deal with the press is one of his greatest weaknesses. In 2008 we need a candidate that can deal with a hostile press--Kucinich is not that man.

[1932]

70. Feingold vs Kucinich, I might have to go with Feingold.

But it would be the sort of choice I wouldn't mind having to make -- or, at least, the things these two guys would add to the debate would be worth hearing.

[genius]

73. Feingold voted for Yucca Mountain and the Real ID Act

He's going to have real problems with Calfiornia environmentalists.

[1932]

74. Feingold's big picture is progressive and CA would probably like him.

I don't think they'd get fooled into thinking only two votes define a man.

[genius]

75. Californians are strong environmentalists. Feingold could lose the state.

Yucca Mountain is likely to contaminate all food and water in the state. Feingold's best hope is to do an about-face and take direct action to stop it. The trouble is he also voted to fund Yucca, just a few months ago, and he also voted for nuclear bunker buster bombs. That is not going over well here. His record is better on a lot of issues than a great many Senators and his position on troop withdrawal from Iraq will help him.

[1932]

87. A Republican is not going to win CA in 2008.

I wouldn't pick my Democratic nominee for 2008 based on the fear that he or she could lose CA.

And given CA's reliance on defense spending, his vote on bunker busting bombs is never going to become part of the popular consciousness in CA. You think Feingold or Boxer or any Republican is going to go around CA making speeches raising ire over defense spending?

[genius]

88. ARnold is our governor. Most of our governors have been Republicans

in recent decades. Feinstein is going to lose here if she runs in 2006. That's why we're working to get a liberal to run against her in the primary. There are a lot of Californians who will either not vote or vote third party when someone who has got a problem with the environment is the nominee. Bustamonte didn't do it for them and that is why Arnold is governor.

[1932]

114. The only way Arnold could become governor was through a recall.

He could never have won an open election, and it looks like incumbancy isn't going to help him win next year. Every state-wide ELECTED office is held by a Democrat. The Republicans have two that they got without having to run in normal elections.

And the last Republican presidential candiate to win the state was who?: Reagan?

[genius]

121. More people voted in the recall election than in the regular election

for governor the year before. that's one of the reasons it would be harder to recall Arnold than Gray. The vote in 02 was extremely low. Arnold beat the pants offBustamonte. Arianna had dropped out and endorsed Bustamonte. We should have nominated her. With Democratic Party backing, she would have creamed Arnold. Bustamonte was the wrong choice. Not liberal enough, and the voters hated him. BTW, I can't stand Arnold, but it's important to be realistic.

[1932]

129. Because there was more at stake. If you're pretty sure Davis was going

to win the general election, then it was easier to miss the election withou worry.

The total number of No votes on the recall plus Yes votes for someone other than arnold was greater than the number of votes arnold got. So more people either didn't want Arnold or didn't want the recall than wanted arnold to be governor. That's why they needed a recall election to get him in office.

The democrats were in an awful position. They can't say Please vote for Bustamente and please vote agains the recall. "No-Bustamente" was the campaign slogan. There's no way that was going to work. Your message is both internally contradictory and it sounds to the casual listener like you're saying don't vote for bustamante.

Do you see how the whole thing is designed to beat incumbents when you can't win outright?

Fortunately, we don't vote for presidents like that. So, I tell you, Feingold would win CA. So would Kucinich.

[genius]

133. Those were two separate votes. Arnold was the clear winner of the recall

People voted to get rid of Davis and in another vote, they voted for his successor. Davis lost on the recall vote and Arnold won. You can't spin that. The Democratic Party threw the election. If they had organized with the left, they would have won. The reason the California Courts have so many bad judges is because the vast majority are Republican appointees.

[1932]

144. He was the most popular in a field of 100s that excluded the governor

And he still got fewer votes than the number of people who didnt want him at all or didn't want a recall.

Really, if he could have won a statewide election, he would have run in one.

Kucinich or Feingold could win California.

[Guava Jelly]

81. HE's a good guy but He cant win.

America isnt going to vote for him at least the moderates and even republicans sick of bush.
sorry thats just how i feel.

[The Sushi Bandit]

82. DENNIS GETS MY VOTE!!!

ONE OF THE FEW DEMS I TRULY TRUST TO KEEP HIS WORD

[Selatius]

84. Dennis Kucinich is a man I'd proudly stand and fight for but...

However, the people of this country--something has to be said about them. The fact is politics has become too superficial in nature, style over substance, etc. If Kucinich looked anywhere near like John F. Kennedy and had the same level of charisma, it is my belief that Kucinich would be an unstoppable candidate.

[AbbyR]

158. Didn't they write it into the qualfications...

that candidates have to be 6'4" and very charismatic? I hate to say it, but it's almost less about politics now than it is about PR.

[Douglas Carpenter]

85. you never hear the GOP saying that because of 64 they can never again run

a REAL conservative.

But to this day we hear right-wingers of the Democratic Party saying that because the Democrats ran a REAL progressive with that great man George McGovern in 1972--we can never again run a REAL progressive.

As far as the Mondale campaign of 1984 is concerned--the right-wing of the Democratic Party has engaged in an incredible--but somewhat successful rewrite of history. Just what part of Mondale's program was soooo liberal???? Check the record and you will see that Mondale's program was also DLC-lite.

I don't know yet if I would or should support Dennis in 2008--but it's about time to put to rest the right-wing lie that America cannot elect a progressive.

[genius]

92. Mondale wasn't liberal. McGovern lost on personality and sabotage.

Remember Watergate? Asking Eagleton to step down made him look weak. This was all a set-up but it gave the impression that he cared more about winning than about his friends.

[LoZoccolo]

102. It's also because the polls say it won't happen.

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04gen6.htm

[genius]

118. Kucinich beat the pants off everyone else in the Newsday Poll

that was conducted with tens of thaousands of participants during the primaries. He also came in second in the Moveon poll that had hundreds of thousands of particpants.

There were some polls where the pollsters forgot to ask about him and people had to tell them to add his name. I don't care about the results of those.

[LoZoccolo]

132. This wasn't one of those because as you can see he was one of two choices.

The MoveOn "primary" was an online poll, not a random sample. Why does Kucinich's supporters have to resort to disingenuous tactics like passing one kind of poll off as another?

The Newsday poll was also likely an online or voluntary poll, because no one running a random poll would likely poll even more than two thousand people, seeing as you only shave plus or minus one percent from the margin of error going from a sample size of around 2000 to around 4000 (regardless of the size of the entire population) to get a 99% confidence level, and 95% is the most widespread.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error

Now should I be more or less confident of the further left contributing to party direction, now that I've seen these two examples of strategy being divorced from reality, either intentionally or not?

[genius]

167. All the candidates were listed on tthe polls I mentioned.

On a lot of other polls candidates (usually including Dennis) were omitted from the questioning.

[ISUGRADIA]

140. He's never won a real election out of the Cleveland

metro area. Polls don't win delegates and DK did not get above 10% in most states.

[Nederland]

149. Those were not scientific polls

Their results are meaningless.

[Douglas Carpenter]

124. thank you for the link--however, I don't really see what those particular

polls have to do with a progressive winning in 2008 -- although I do not know whether or not Mr. Kucinich is the great progressive hope -- I remember reading a Times article in the late 70's that rediculed the idea of Reagan actually winning -- he was just way too conservative and only "true believers" supported him. Gerald Ford said in 1976 that Ronald Reagan was too conservative to win and was thus unelectable.

But what I would like to know sir, whether Mr. Kucinich or some other progressive leader, do you consider them far left? If so what specifically are they proposing makes them far left and thus unelectable? Who else of major Democrat figures do you consider far left? And what specific proposals are they advocating do you consider far left and thus unelectable?

Thank you.

[LoZoccolo]

131. It doesn't matter.

If people won't vote for them over the opposing candidates, all the positions and policies exist in a test tube somewhere.

I was just responding to this idea that Kucinich would have won or something if the Democrats would have elected him in the primary; he wouldn't have.

[Douglas Carpenter]

135. well, I guess I have to agree with you that it is highly unlikely that

he would have won in 2004. Just as it is highly unlikely that Reagan would have won in 1968 or 1976 when he also sought the nomination then.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

106. YES YES YES

[CountAllVotes]

109. I agree!

YES YES YES YES YES!!!!

:kick:

[Raiden]

120. He couldn't win the primary in 2004

What makes you think he could win it now??

[genius]

122. So you are saying that Edwards, Dean, and Clark should also forget it.

History is full of Presidents who weren't nominated the first time they ran.

[bluedawg12]

142. Yup. Not viable. n/t

[Smoke Screen]

126. Someone else please!

I like Kucinich, however, the Democrats need someone who is moderate. The only way we are going to get back the White House is if we can entice some Republicans to join us. By throwing an ultra liberal in the mix, we'll be doing just the opposite. These guy are deathly afraid of Liberals! Maybe once we gain the trust in the American people and contol of the White House and Congress, we can throw in an ultra liberal in the mix.

I will do anything to get the crazy reich-winged neocons out of the White House! Help!

[Douglas Carpenter]

137. I respectfully ask, what specific policies does Kucinich support that are

so far out of the mainstream that it makes him unelectable?

I have no idea who I will support in 2008. I have not committed myself to Mr Kucinich or anyone else. I just don't know why so many Democrats accept the GOP/DLC and corporate-media labels. I think that anyone who dispassionately looks at Mr. Kucinich's record and proposals would see that they are well within the mainstream of what many if not most ordinary Americans support.

[MojoXN]

127. As much as I like the guy...

It didn't work last time, so what makes you think that things will be any different come '08?

MojoXN

[MrSlayer]

128. I voted for Kooch in my primary last year.

Clark was already gone and I liked Dennis best of the remaining candidates. I would happily vote for him should he run again.

[Paulie]

130. Dennis STILL has my vote

I have my Kucinich 4 Pres bumper sticker up in my cube at work. Changed cubes 3 times since the election, still right above my phone. :)

[Mairead]

143. It's not going to happen. Dennis will not be elected.

And it has not one damned thing to do with the crypto-GOP-fellow-traveller cries that 'he's too short/homely/leftist/RC/vegan/slavic/etc.'

It's because--and only because--the people who support him are not willing to do the work to make it happen. They are members, unwitting perhaps, of Concerned Couch-Potatoes of America, the group whose motto is 'Caring, by itself, should be enough'. They want to believe that it will either happen magically with everyone in the USA suddenly waking up one day knowing who Dennis is and what his politics are, or that somebody else will do the work.

But all those 'somebody elses' are also thinking that somebody else (not them) will do it, or that it will happen magically. So they're not going to do it either.

So the next President-elect of the USA will be another rightwinger. Maybe he'll even be a nominal Dem, but he'll be a rightwinger. And all the people here who claim to want a pro-working-people administration will sigh and go back to playing their "Ain't It Awful", "If It Weren't For Them", and "Something Must Be Done" conversational games at DU.

Count on it.

[zulchzulu]

155. I knew some Kucinich fans who were VERY dedicated grassroots...

...people.

Two years ago in August 2003, I had my little Kerry table at the Fighting Bob Fest in Baraboo, WI. His numbers were in the single digits. I had formatted some handouts from the Kerry web site of issue papers and had a laptop playing some Kerry videos.

My table was next to the Kucinich table that had twelve or so people, a schedule for people to rotate out, a large banner, a lot of 4-color brochures, a TV playing some of his speeches, tons of buttons, stickers, yard signs, posters...they were very dedicated...and very nice to me. Nearly all of them came up to my lowly Kerry table and thanked me for having someone represent him at the festival. What did piss me off was that Kucinich spoke at the festival and left without stopping by for a second to say hello. Some people were a tad pissed he didn't do that.

They were much friendlier that the Dean folks, who would hide their buttons and sneak a peak at what I had on display...saying nothing...whatever...bygones...

Still, they had a lot of people at meetups in Madison and other locations. It was mostly that there was NO money in the Kucinich campaign to sustain supporters over time.

[Nederland]

156. Question

Why is the left so lazy?

At least that is what it seems you are implying...

[GreenPartyVoter]

157. Wish we had an election system he could get elected under

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[Mairead]

159. You've captured the problem in a nutshell, GPV: we wish

I've never seen wishing produce results, though. Have you?

[genius]

163. The electability lie is a lie. Dean and Clark proved they were unelectable

Otherewise, they wouldn't have done so badly.

[shockra]

160. Real Democrats are Vegans.

I could get behind that.

[Roland99]

161. Could he at least get a haircut?

162. true democrats vrs "we have to win" democrats

If you had a true to his/her heart, somewhat charismatic democrat running that really spoke to people and had a real agenda, I think they could have a chance against the republicans. I thought Kerry was intelligent but condescending toward middle america. Also I like Kucinich, but think he doesn't exhibit enough DRIVE to catch people's attention.

[genius]

164. I think the kinds of attacks seen here show people are afraid he'll win

The Republicans don't want Dennis getting the nomination because he's a guaranteed winner. He's the best debater we have, and all he needs is the publicity the nomination will bring him to leave the Republcians in the dust. They would do anything and keep up the lies forever to try to get us not to nominate him.

[renie408]

165. And I think you were feeling unusually optimistic the day you picked your

screenname.

Are you SERIOUSLY trying to say that the people who are not high on Kucinich are Republicans?

[genius]

166. I am saying that the Republcians are terrified of him and that's why the

the press tried to keep him out of the news and why a lot of people use the electability lie.

[renie408]

168. Look, I respect that you love this guy...

and I even think he is a good man.

But "terrified"?? Really?? Why would that be? Because if only he could get some media attention, the whole country would be enlightened by the wonder of Dennis and vote for him?? Honey, he can't get the majority of the DU to vote for him and we ARE paying attention.

To be terrified of somebody, they have to be in a position to do you some damage. I am sorry, I just don't see it.

I think you should check the prescription on your rose colored glasses.

[ISUGRADIA]

171. DK should run in 2008 and let the voters decide

All I (and I think many others) have said about his electibility is that he has not shown it in the past which is all one has to go on to estimate future performance.

He's not been overwhelmingly popular in Ohio having lost for SOS in 1982 and races for Congress in 1988 and 1992. In 2004 he received less than 10% in a majority of states and over 20% in just a handful. He came in 3rd in his own congressional district. So this air of inevitable victory nationwide rings hollow to me.

Just because his 2004 campaign tanked does not mean that he is doomed in the future. Bob Dole ran a totally horrible campaign in 1980 and this was after having been the VP candidate 4 years earlier. In fact he was 7th in NH AFTER 6th place Jimmy Carter as a write-in. Dole rebounded and became the nominee in 96. DK could do the same but I don't think so.

There are things I don't like about DK, but I will say he was hampered in 2004 by one of his admirable qualities: he stayed in DC to do the job he was elected to do by his constituents. I think he missed a handful of votes while Kerry and Edwards missed a large %. That hurt him in IA, NH and other states. And from being in IA in 2004 he campaign seemed disjointed to me.

A sharper more targeted effort in 2008 might get him a more respectable showing in a state like Iowa where peace activists have a rep of caucus involvement. He certainly can point to what he was saying in mid-2003 about getting US troops out and UN troops in a round about "I was right" point. And I'll be interested to see if he is one of the first to introduce an impeachment resolution.

[Mairead]

172. Work on your logic a bit. Just a suggestion. :-)

Genius said Republicans oppose Dennis. It does not then follow that all who oppose Dennis are Republicans. (If that still isn't clear, try the classic one: dogs (~Republicans) are mortal (~opposed to DK). Therefore all mortal beings (those opposed to DK) are dogs (Republicans)? Nope, bad logic.)