Sen. Warner & Snow: "revise" Posse Comitatus & Insurrection Acts

[paineinthearse]

Senator Warner (R-Va) fires first shot to revise/repeal the posse comitatus act & the insurrection act.

Live from floor speech...developing. Warner asked unanimous consent his "thoughts" be entered into the record (may be available in Thomas tomorrow, but any DU members from Virginia, please call his office and get/post a copy of his "thoughts" here ASAP).

His direction was immediately seconded by Senator Snow (R-Maine).

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-cp/comrel/factfile/Factcards/PosseComitatus.html

"POSSE COMITATUS ACT" (18 USC 1385): A Reconstruction Era criminal law proscribing use of Army (later, Air Force) to "execute the laws" except where expressly authorized by Constitution or Congress. Limit on use of military for civilian law enforcement also applies to Navy by regulation. Dec '81 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies--including the Coast Guard--especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews). Positive results have been realized especially from Navy ship/aircraft involvement.

http://matewan.squarespace.com/journal/2005/9/7/the-insurrection-act.html

The Insurrection Act
§ 332. Use of militia and armed forces to enforce Federal authority

Whenever the President considers that unlawful obstructions, combinations, or assemblages, or rebellion against the authority of the United States, make it impracticable to enforce the laws of the United States in any State or Territory by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, he may call into Federal service such of the militia of any State, and use such of the armed forces, as he considers necessary to enforce those laws or to suppress the rebellion.

[paineinthearse]

1. Senator Collins chimes in

Rethug's new line: revise posse commotatus and insurrection acts.

[ret5hd]

2. hell, what's a 3rd world country without the army patrolling the streets?

[KansDem]

14. And the best army in the world at that!

We should feel honored!

The United States of America: the only country with a first-world military and a third-world government.

[Nikki Stone 1]

23. It's a sad day in America

We're gone

[tyedyeto]

3. Question? Who sponsored the act when it was passed?

My guess the repugs but that's just a guess. Now they've decided it must be repealed or revised?

[Freddie Stubbs]

8. Everyone who was alive when that law was passed is now dead

It was passed in 1878.

[catnhatnh]

4. This is the BigOne....the whole point of the NO response...

...and FEMA fiasco...Bush never met a civil right he didn't hate and posse commitatus is a big one....it assured us that were we to face military troops in the aftermath of a disaster or civil unrest they would be LOCAL National Guard troops...only at Kent State did the local ties break down and that was aided by the polarization of politics because of Vietnam and demonization of the protesters by the Nixon white House....kicked and nominated...

[Emit]

25. And this is why we are in a catch 22 with the blame game

The more blame we cry out about that the feds didn't respond, FEMA screwed up, etc., while I feel is true, only adds fuel to this matter at hand now. It's a catch 22. That's why I don't trust what Scarborough is doing right now (threads on DU last night about him coming down hard on FEMA) and then Bush's* "taking responsibility" today--something's amiss here.

Somehow, this is going to backfire on us, I fear. They are going to use this NOLA thing to their benefit--actually, it lends credibility to the LIHOP notion that the delay was purposeful so that we would be put into a position to beg for federal and/or military involvement in a crisis.

Also, this relates to the concern that Blanco had when Bush* said to her, I'll send in the troops if you relinquish control of the NG and troops to the WH. Is this was she was protecting against?

There's something fishy about the way this whole thing has unfolded--almost as if they've conveniently and with a little dumb luck, made this out to be their 2nd 'new Pearl Harbor' (a la PNAC style) so that they could find a way to dismantle federal government, impede on state's rights and erode civil rights even further.

When we criticize FEMA for their lame response to NOLA, we should be careful what we are asking for. It's a tough position for us to be in, and I think rather than blaming just FEMA, we need to continue to tie this into Bush & Co. and question ulterior motives here. Of course, than, that leaves us to look pretty darned paranoid----again.

[bluestateguy]

5. and yet it was southerners who wanted Posse Comitatus in 1871

OK, I expect all those Confederate heritage types to express outrage now.

[TayTay]

6. Saw this on the floor in part

Warner wants possee Comitatus and the Insurrection Act to be looked at to see if they need revision. Very disturbing.

Snowe and Collins are talking about modifying No Child Left Behind to make it actually work. (Good luck gals! Rethugs won't touch this.)

[paineinthearse]

11. Snowe and Collins are "Yankee" republicans

More philosophically aligned with centerist Dems. Perhaps they would get getter results if they switched parties.

[...of J.Temperance]

7. The Bush bastard and his cronies in the GOP HAVE to do this BECAUSE

They know they have to have the entire country under Martial Law pre-2008. There will be no election in 2008, because they know they'll lose. Under Martial Law one can cancel all elections until further notice, which translated to the Bush bastard further notice = NEVER.

"Unlawful obstruction...rebellion against the authority of the United States" both these terms in the Bush bastards head = 2008 and beyond elections getting in the way of kicking the Fascists out.

I really hate to EVEN predict this, Martial Law, Bush bastard Dictatorship, but I've been feeling this in my gut for a while now. They know they CANNOT afford to lose, they've done TOO much, if they lose it's probable that criminal suits will be filed against all of them and some of them will do jailtime for obstruction of justice, embezzlement of government funds, fraud, bribery and other crimes.

If the Martial Law thing is put into place, the Bush bastard is 59, with Martial Law and suspension of elections, unless SOMEONE stops him, I can see him still being in the WH when he's 80 years old.

They've been waiting decades for this moment, they're playing for keeps, they have no intention of EVER peacefully giving up power, they will NOT go gently into that good night.

The Bush bastard is America's Ceaucescu and like Ceaucescu, the Bush bastard will NOT leave office without violence.

It's probably going to result in a new Civil War to get him out, this time it's going to be the Bush bastard and his Fascists vs EVERYBODY else.

One might take comfort in the old saying: He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. Many of DUers made those arguements prior to the 2004 elections

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1240899

Don't worry. The other side has its own paranoid fantasies:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3903bf534a7c.htm

[...of J.Temperance]

13. Okay ;) But for 2008...I'll bet you a bottle of the finest Tequila

I have a bet now and then.

I'm not sure that I want to go and check out the Freak Republic, so I'll take a pass and take your word.

[Zodiak]

12. wow...

You are dead on with this comparison with Ceaucescu; never heard of him before this post.

The patterns are very, very similar.

[...of J.Temperance]

15. Yeah, the Romanian Dictator...in the end the people removed him

History is our friend. If we can't revisit certain historical periods of time, to study and learn from those periods and watch for and make comparisons with whats happening nowadays, then we will be well and truly fucked...if you pardon my French.

Another comparison would be one of the Roman Emperor's called Caligula...not the sex orgy type stuff about Caligula, but EVERYTHING else about him was very much like the Bush bastard.

[Zodiak]

18. I've heard the Caligula comparison

and the recent Nero/Commodus comparison, which are fairly accurate, but this Romanian dictator is a VERY GOOD modern example of Bushite behavior (albeit a different ideology).

What is ubiquitous about all of these comparison is that they are all leaders during the downfall of a nation, not the rise.

[...of J.Temperance]

21. You make an excellant point

Albeit a disturbing one. That all of these comparisons are of leaders that are leaders during the downfall of their nations, and not the rise.

It's sad, but it's true...but THIS is what ALL Dictators do. Their actions ALWAYS lead to the downfall of their nation and they always create misery, suffering and death around them, through their actions.

The light at the end of the tunnel, is that throughout history ALL Dictators have fallen. Not ONE Dictator in history has EVER been able to sustain their Dictatorship forever and the fall has nearly always been caused when the PEOPLE have said that enough is enough. And after the fall, most of those nations have risen, but the rise has often taken a long time due to the utter destruction that the Dictator has caused.

The tragic fact is, that in order to get rid of the Bush bastard, he's DEFINATELY going to take as MUCH of the country as possible down with him.

[peacetalksforall]

9. They know that they are not going to get elected again and they are

going for broke. Roberts, this one, National Parks, no jury for prisoners, secret handling of detainees = anything =- ANYTHING that is the law. EVERYTHING for people control and slavery.

[MaineDem]

16. Unfortunately, Snowe will probably win re-election.

It will take a small miracle to defeat her.

[mainegreen]

22. I'm not so sure

I think the souther maine electoral base is undergoing a shift right now. I think it will be real close.

[MaineDem]

46. I wish I shared your optimism (nt)

[peacetalksforall]

26. I didn't necessarily mean only Warner and Snowe - I mean the

Presidency, House, Senate. But, it looks like they will have the Supreme Court unless God can be good to this country for a change.

[bearfan454]

29. One word - DIEBOLD

Sorry to say.

[autorank]

17. A few more words of explanatoin. I want to write Warner a letter.

Recommended.

[OregonBlue]

37. I wrote to him and Snowe, please let me know what you say to him

Dear Senator Warner,

I heard today that you may support revising the law regarding Posse Comitatus. I believe that this would be a serious mistake.

From what I've been reading, it was not Posse Comitatus that was the problem in the recent delay in sending troops into Louisiana. The Department of Defense spent 2 days reviewing their liability and the President refused to send in the military unless they were under federal control.

Under the circumstances, I believe that any other president would have sent troops immediately, allowed the State of Louisiana to decide how they should be best used, and worked with the state to sort out chain-of- command issues while the troops were on the ground saving lives. Had troops been on the ground performing search and rescue, the NO police could have done their job.

Please do not make hasty decisions about federalizing the military in response to this current crisis. Right now, we need an independent review of what really happened in New Orleans, not knee jerk reactions to what may have happened.

I understand that this is a highly politically charged atmosphere, which is why I am writing to you. I trust you and Olympia Snowe not to play politics, not to try to assign blame before we know the facts, not to make any changes that challenge the most fundamental rights of the American people and state's rights based on political pressure or the need to deflect blame from the president or your party.

There is a great deal of mistrust of and lack of trust in the government right now. Your attempting to take away civil and state’s rights at this time will only inflame the situation. Many people are discussing the possibility that the inadequate response of FEMA was not an accident. There were comments by a number of Republicans yesterday that the military and the private sector worked, it was FEMA that did not. Therefore, we may need to look at getting rid of FEMA. Is this an attempt to militarize and privatize FEMA?

It is now clear that FEMA, and probably Homeland Security as well, are rife with political appointments and party contributors. Shouldn't we be examining how that affected the response, rather than jumping to conclusions? Weren't our tax dollars supposed to be spent on putting together a radio communications system so that first responders and emergency management personnel could communicate? Wasn't that what we were promised after 9/11? Why wasn't that done? Where did the money for Homeland Security go? Did HSD place too much emphasis on terrorist attacks while ignoring basic emergency management response? I'm sure there are many questions like this that need to be answered before we make sweeping changes to state’s rights. A change at this time will be met with anger from the left, the right and the black caucus.

Any revision of Posse Comitatus would only heighten the distrust gripping the country. I beg you to reconsider. Calm your constituents. Reject party politics. Reject knee jerk reactions. Support bi-cameral review of Katrina.

We need Congress to work work together to fix what happened with FEMA and make our country safer, not more polarized.

[BlueEyedSon]

19. I cannot f'in believe it....kick

[madrchsod]

20. oh boy! the aryan nation must be flipping out

over this...they can`t blame the jews or the dirty races on this one.i guess i`ll check out stormfront when i get home tonight from work. of all the aryan nation sites they actually do have some reasoned thoughts,well untill they come to the conculsions that it`s not the white man`s fault.

[catnhatnh]

24. Kick....

...and ask 2 more nominate....

[paineinthearse]

27. Nothing from today on Thomas yet.

Nothing from today on Thomas yet. Probably tomorrow.

[paineinthearse]

28. Response from Senator Warner

"Thank you for your email. It is my goal to reply in a timely fashion, via regular mail, to every email that I directly receive from a fellow Virginian. I appreciate your views and look forward to responding to you."

As I am not in Virginia, I do not expect a response.

Looking for assistance from a DU member. We need to get a copy of what Warner's "thoughts" are.

[paineinthearse]

39. Still nothing in Thomas

Filters = Sen. Warner & "comitatus"

"No records found with comitatus
Please enter another Search Phrase.

will check again tomorrow.

[paineinthearse]

41. 24 hours later...still nothing in Thomas

They must be behind.

Search for Warner, by date. Most recent:

1 . ENROLLED BILLS SIGNED -- (Senate - September 06, 2005)
2 . EXECUTIVE REPORTS OF COMMITTEES--JULY 29, 2005 -- (Senate - September 06, 2005)

[OregonBlue]

30. My letter to Senator Snowe

Dear Senator Snowe,

I heard today that you may support revising the law regarding Posse Comitatus. I believe that this would be a serious mistake.

From what I've been reading, it was not Posse Comitatus that was the problem in the recent delay in sending troops into Louisiana. The Department of Defense spent 2 days reviewing their liability and the President refused to send in the military unless they were under federal control.

Under the circumstances, I believe that any other president would have sent troops immediately, allowed the State of Louisiana to decide how they should be best used, and worked with the state to sort out chain-of- command issues while the troops were on the ground saving lives.

Please do not make hasty decisions about federalizing the military in response to this current crisis. Right now, we need an independent review of what really happened in New Orleans, not knee jerk reactions to what you believe happened.

I understand that this is a highly politically charged atmosphere, which is why I am writing to you. I trust you not to play politics, not to try to assign blame before we know the facts, not to make any changes that challenge the most fundamental rights of the American people and state's rights based on political pressure or the need to deflect blame from the president or your party.

There is a great deal of fear in the nation right now. Many people are discussing the possibility that the inadequate response of FEMA was not an accident. There were comments by a number of Republicans yesterday that the military and the private sector worked, it was FEMA that did not. Therefore, we may need to look at getting rid of FEMA. Is this an attempt to militarize and privatize FEMA?

It is now clear that FEMA, and probably Homeland Security as well, are rife with political appointments and party contributors. Shouldn't we be examining how that affected the response, rather than jumping to conclusions? Weren't our tax dollars supposed to be spent on putting together a radio communications system so that first responders and emergency management personnel could communicate? Wasn't that what we were promised after 9/11? Why wasn't that done? Where did the money for Homeland Security go? Did HSD place too much emphasis on terrorist attacks while ignoring basic emergency management response? I'm sure there are many questions like this that need to be answered before we make sweeping constitutional changes.

Any revision of Posse Comitatus at this time would only further the paranoia currently gripping the country. I beg you to reconsider. Calm your constituents. Reject party politics. Reject knee jerk reactions. Support bi-cameral review of Katrina.

We need Congress to work together to fix what happened with FEMA and make our country safer, not more polarized.

[paineinthearse]

42. Excellent letter - have any Virginia DU's done the same?

Please share the response when received.

[OregonBlue]

45. Will do. Won't hold my breath!

[Pepperbelly]

31. What revisions are they proposing?

I do not normally react quickly to political winds but this is downright BAD. I would really, really like to see some details. Any one know anything specific?

[OregonBlue]

32. Google search has:

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2005/09/katrina-response-has-us-lawmakers.php

Friday, September 09, 2005


Katrina response has US lawmakers reconsidering Posse Comitatus Act
David Shucosky at 10:09 AM ET


With Washington reeling from criticism about its response to Hurricane Katrina , lawmakers are again considering relaxation of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 , which generally prohibits federal soldiers or National Guard troops under federal control from operating in a law enforcement capacity on US soil. Approximately 19,000 active-duty soldiers and 45,000 National Guard soldiers - the latter currently under the control of Louisiana Governor Katheleen Blanco - are now involved in relief efforts. Military and civic officials have thusfar been at pains to stress that their involvement in recovery work and even the National Guard's law enforcement role does not amount to any sort of martial law.

Gen. Peter Pace , expected to become chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff later this year, has called for Posse Comitatus to be reconsidered in response to suggestions that it slowed down deployment of troops, but has not specifically endorsed a relaxation. Sen. John Warner (R-VA) , chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee , has questioned restrictions under the law since the September 11th attacks, and has promised to do so again. Earlier this summer, new Department of Defense contingency plans for response to terrorist attacks also raised questions about the act and domestic deployment of federal troops. Legal scholars, however, have questioned any relaxation of the statute, noting that in earlier disasters "Congress and the public have seen the military as a panacea for domestic problems", and "minor exceptions to the PCA can quickly expand to become major exceptions" <75 Washington University Law Quarterly 953; full text>.

The Rand Corporation offers an overview of the Posse Comitatus Act , LLRX offers a print-oriented resource guide, and the conservative Cato Institute hosted a debate on the Act's current applicability in 2002. Also in 2002, JURIST ran an op-ed on the subject in the context of military support in the search for the DC sniper . Reuters has more.

[Pepperbelly]

33. Thank you so much ....

This is scary.

I am always fearful when these gop orcs start looking into anything that could restrict our freedoms even more. I don't like this even a little bit.

Not a single bit.

[OregonBlue]

36. You're welcome and it is very very scary!

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

38. Posse Comitatus prohibits using fed troops in

law enforcement capacity. There's no reason they can;t be used in rescue/relief capacity. These congress critters need to stop focusing on the looters. The NOLA PD could have dealt with that issue if they had some help with rescue/relief efforts

[stickdog]

34. Yep. That's who is to blame for this disaster.

A law that has been routinely disregarded by the federal government for at least the last 50 years.

[struggle4progress]

35. Retort: The problem has been the inappropriate use of the state ..

.. militias (that is, the National Guard) to prosecute an unnecessary war for which there has no been sufficient public support, with the result that these forces have been unavailable for emergencies in their several states. The appropriate remedy is to limit such abuse of National Guard units in the future.

We would be idiotic indeed to allow this administration and this Congress to repeal such a fundamental protection as Posse Comitatus: this is, after all, the administration that argues (successfully)before its rightwing judges that Americans can be arrested on American soil (not as hors de combat, either) and held without trial as "enemy combatants" on the say-so of the President; this is the administration of warrantless searches, the administration that kidnaps people on American soil and sends them abroad to be tortured, the administration that has emphasized mercenaries as part of its military strategy and allowed those mercenaries toi patrol the streets of a major city while confiscating the guns of the citizens there.

[Bridget Burke]

44. If there are so many extra "regular" military, why aren't they overseas?

Why are so many National Guard fighting wars for the rich? One of their big roles is "policing" after disasters. Wouldn't it be better to have locals policing their own regions?

(For the record, I don't think ANY of our military should be fighting those wars.)

[ticapnews]

40. Warner's remarks (NavyTimes)

“The time has come that we should just reflect on the Posse Comitatus Act and other statutes that have served this nation quite well in years passed,” said Sen. John Warner, R-Va., the armed services committee chairman. “We face an uncertain future as it relates to terrorism and the use of weapons of mass destruction.” The hurricane, he said, provides an example of federal, state and local law enforcement agencies that are close to overwhelmed.

Warner is not in a rush to make changes, and is not even certain that the Posse Comitatus Act and Insurrection Act that restrict military involvement in law enforcement need to be changed. He said he simply wants some high-level discussions about whether the laws are workable or need to be updated.

The Senate is expected to return to work in the next few weeks on the 2006 defense authorization bill, but Warner said he probably would not support an amendment to the bill making any changes. “We are talking about some major and fundamental changes in military law and criminal law, and we should not rush,” he said. “We need to do this right. We have to in a very quiet and careful manner look at the totality of permanent law and regulation to determine what changes should be made to meet contingencies of the nature we have experienced, whether it is a natural disaster or … a terrorist attack in the future,” he said.

He said he has been working on the concept for 18 months, well before Katrina’s destructive arrival. But Katrina, with its heavy military involvement, provides examples that can help bring attention to the need for a review of the laws.

(snip)

http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1100656.php

Some special words from Trent Lott:

Sen. Trent Lott, R-Miss., said he has praise for military efforts on Katrina, one of the bright spots of federal relief efforts.

“The National Guard and our military, when they arrive on the scene, things change,” Lott said. “We could not have made it without them, period. People would have died.”

Well thank God no one died. :eyes:

[paineinthearse]

43. I've nominated Lott for "conservative idiot of the week" nt

[zulchzulu]

47. If the Repugs REALLY want to lose BIG in 2006 and 2008...

...they will try to fiddle with this.

People WILL take to the streets...enough IS enough.

[ticapnews]

49. The idea is to avoid those bothersome elections completely...

Some crisis, like the Reichstag burning down Statue of Liberty being destroyed, will lead to sweeping new powers for the government and restrictions placed on certain liberties in the name of security. We must protect the German American people from the evil Communists and Jews Terrorists and Liberals. Having an election during such a time would be too much for the country to take...maybe in 2008...or 2012...or 2040...

[Emit]

48. Chertoff wanting to circumvent Posse Comitatus for some time now:

Posted by nonny on another thread about Chertoff:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4770157#4775691

In other news on August 9, Homeland Security
Secretary Michael Chertoff said that if the military
were deployed inside the United States in response to
a terrorist attack, his department, not the Pentagon,
would exercise overall control, reports the Los
Angeles Times.

“The Department of Homeland Security has the
responsibility under the President’s directives to
coordinate the entirety of the response to a terrorist
act here in the United States. And, responding to news
reports, the Pentagon has drawn up plans for military
action… It ranges from scenarios of crowd control to
dealing with radiological or biological attacks.” So what
does civilian control of the Pentagon mean?

Chertoff, whose name means ‘of the devil’ in
Russian, is attempting to further circumvent Posse
Comitatus. He is trying to gain control of law
enforcement to ensure that the Department of Homeland
Security, which will include the Office of Internal
Security, the Office of Political Security, and other
agencies to be created after Posse Comitatus is
overturned, will have a civilian mechanism to control
a militarized law enforcement because they don’t want
the military to control it.

This is what’s going to happen when Posse
Comitatus is overturned. They still want civilian
control, and you notice where that control lies.
Control lies in these skeleton organizations
that would become fully effective upon the overturning
of Posse Comitatus. The reason this is being done is
because they don’t trust the military. They want to have the
ability to politicize law enforcement, to use a
post-Posse Comitatus, militarized, domestic law
enforcement for political purposes.

This, in essence, will be a federal militarized
police, and they want the ability to use it for
political purposes. That’s why they want the control
of a militarized police to remain, not simply in
civilian hands, but to be in the hands of former
Bushonian cabalists, like Porter Goss, current head of
the CIA and John Negroponte, head of the new National
Intelligence Directorate. These are people who have
run illegal covert operations during Bushonian regimes
in the past, who acted to cover up Bushonian
involvement, and who also selected and went after
those who knew too much.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/mparent7777/1973043.html

[paineinthearse]

50. CSPAN now

Just a few minutes left, started at 7:45.

[paineinthearse]

51. WaTimes: Bush seeks to federalize emergencies

See LBN - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1808662&mesg_id=1808662

[The Stranger]

52. Someone ask Warner to see if he knows his own state's motto.

(Or have him check the Virginia State Flag).