Poll: And tell these idiots we do NOT want to ban The Pledge of Alegience?

[Ian David]

Daily Journal Quick Poll:

Should the Pledge of Allegiance be banned from public schools?
http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=48660

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Post your comment
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[valerief]

1. I want it banned. It serves no purpose.

[July]

2. I second that motion.

I don't see the value in it.

People should care more about the Constitution than about flag-loyalty rituals.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

41. Exactly.

[Ian David]

12. My post on their message board

Today's Daily Journal Quick Poll is a disingenuous and misleading push-poll.

Should the Pledge of Allegiance be banned from public schools?

NOBODY wants to ban The Pledge of Allegiance!

The issue is with the phrase, "Under God," which was added in the 1950s when we were struggling with The Godless Commies and we wanted to make a point of saying that we are not like the communists.

That was nice, when we were struggling against Militant Atheists.

But now we are struggling against Militant Religious Extremists.

Here's a brief description of the problem:

Some people don't believe in God, and feel uncomfortable invoking him. They also feel uncomfortable being in a room full of people where they are the only ones not participating.

Some people believe in God, but find it sacrilegious to invoke his name in a pledge or promise of any sort.

Some people believe in God, but also believe in The Separation of Church and State, and believe in the rights of those with beliefs other than their own.

Imagine, for a moment, that The Pledge said, "One Nation, Under The Flying Spaghetti Monster." Or if it said, "One Nation, Under Satan? "Tell me if you'd want to say it-- or even hear it said-- in school every morning?

What if you were the only person in the room not saying, "One Nation, Under Satan?"

Personally, I would rather pledge to The Constitution than to the flag. But I have no problem with pledging to the flag, and neither does anyone I know.

I think the pledge needs to be restored to its original version, with the phrase "under God" taken out.

[valerief]

28. I still want it banned

Well, I don't want public school be forced to say it. It's so, so, so Hitler Youthish.

[Darryl Cramer]

32. I think some people want it banned

I don't care that much, but I can't really see the purpose. It seems somewhat silly to pledge allegiance to a flag.

[patrice]

3. It should not be banned, but only if Psychology becomes part

of the required Science curriculum, so people are provided with some "tools" for understanding group dynamics and individual development.

[valerief]

6. You mean IG?

Intelligent Groupthink

[patrice]

13. So, is that the group who believes that groups are a product of

Intelligent Design? and, ergo, by association, Divine also?

[valerief]

15. Ah, I was just making a joke

But, yeah, it was a play on that.

You've heard of the Intelligent Falling Theory by the people who dispute the gravity theory, right?

[patrice]

20. Yeah, I was just playing along with you.

Nope, I haven't heard of the Intelligent Falling Theory. What gives?

[valerief]

25. From The Onion

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512

[Sandpiper]

4. How does reciting a cultic loyalty oath contribute to a child's education?

Thoughtlessly rattling off the Pledge of Allegiance at the start of each school day contributes nothing to the educational process.


It should be removed as part of students daily routine.

[patrice]

27. It should be used for special occasions only.

Familiarity breeds boredom at minimum.

[Angry Girl]

31. Special occasions? Like what? Fascist, nationalistic functions?

Sorry. I hate that pledge thing. It sets up an "us against them" theme and the whole ritual is militaristic: standing at attention staring at a flag.

And repeating the pledge mindlessly might breed boredom at one level, but the message then is able to seep into the unwitting subconscience, where it causes more damage.

The pledge is a dangerous thing because it seems so innocuous.

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[patrice]

33. I'm trying to suggest a workable compromise.

Ever since 2000, I've only mouthed the Pledge.

[Angry Girl]

29. You said it perfectly! It only harms an Open Mind, if anything!

And that bit about "under gawd" definitely needs to go!

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[Ufour20]

5. Screw the pledge and all of these so called chrisitian

Religion and the pledge deserve the same fate - dump 'em.

[jobycom]

11. Dump religion?

Do you mean from schools, or just in general?

[valerief]

17. In general would be best but from schools would be a good start

Especially since we're supposed to be living in a secular nation with separation of church and state.

I myself am a secule.

[melissinha]

7. me too

it inherently establishes the connection between church and state at a very young age.

Its not about wether you are religious or not.... moments of silnce or for not uttering the word under god.

Besides, pledging allegiance is kinda scary.

[Finder]

8. Me too--no need for it.

I don't think it should be banned per se, just not required. It is a prayer(in its current form) and belongs in the moment of silence realm.

[jobycom]

9. No one wants to ban it, we want to ban the government from forcing our

kids to say it in school. Even without the "under God" phrase, there is nothing more unAmerican and antithetical to our founding documents than forcing kids to state a belief in anything.

[Mass]

10. Taking under God out of the Pledge does not ban the pledge

It brings it back to the original form it had before the Cold War.

(I agree that it is group programming anyway, but I think the point should be made that all this nonsense about banning the Pledge is just hypocritical - The pledge was designed without God in it).

[mike_c]

14. ban it, IMO....

It's a loyalty oath and has no business being part of a social institution that should develop critical thinking instead of blind alliegence.

[moobu2]

16. The media is just feeding the ignorance.

Everything from the way they report the story e.g. “Federal judge bans pledge of allegiance from public schools” to the way they form these questions in these polls. (the ruling only effected the schools these children in the suit attended.)

Why cant they take the opportunity to discuses the issue with intelligent truth? Like, when the words “under God” were added for instance. Or since you feel it isn’t a prayer to God thus making it religious, would you mind changing the under God part to “under Buddha”? Something, anything but they way they’re talking about this.

[Sandpiper]

18. Not to mention, why are we swearing a loyalty oath to the flag?

The flag is not America. The Constitution defines America as "We the People."

Our allegiance is to ourselves, not to icons of the State.

[Ian David]

22. One Nation, Under-Funded...One Nation, Under The Flying Spaghetti Monster

One Nation, (mostly) Under Canada...

One Nation, Under The Constitution...

One Nation, Under Pants...

One Nation, Under Smog...

One Nation, Under-Educated...

[patrice]

24. This is also Idolatry and a violation of the First Commandment.

It is possible to idolize "a bunch of words" like the pledge, or even a single word, like "God". And, of course, many people idolize cloth configured as the U.S. flag.

Do not mistakes words or other symbols for the reality they only point to. Assess the actual state-of-being of that reality instead.

[Viking12]

19. The pledge shouldn't be banned...

..but recitals led by school officials should. That is, after all, what the decision holds.

On edit: spelling

[underpants]

21. WHO CARES?

It is silly and not any part of the official US government. We made fun of it when we were kids and it didn't make anyone more patriotic or more Christian anyway.

[Rude Horner]

23. Even though I'm not adding anything new to this thread

I'll still put in my two cents. I agree with those who would ban it. At the very least, not require it. But it serves no purpose other than to brainwash children at an early age. Schools should encourage free thinking, not blind faith.

[Ian David]

26. Edited: It can be a kid's first chance to rebel and make a statement

Many kids (including one who posts here) have made refusing to say The Pledge their first act of political activism and rebellion.

For every ten thousand kids who say the pledge, there's probably one who refuses and takes a stand.

I say, keeping the pledge in school is worth it, for precisely that reason.

And there is NOTHING more American and Patriotic than that!


Many kids have made refusing to say The Pledge their first act of political activism and rebellion.

For every ten thousand kids who say the pledge, there's probably one who refuses and takes a stand.

I say, keeping the pledge in school is worth it, for precisely that reason.

Dissent is the highest form of Patriotism, and nothing serves your country more than learning to think for yourself.

Refusing to say the pledge is also a lot more environmentally-friendly than dumping tea into Boston Harbor.

So, remove the phrase, "Under God" but keep the pledge!

Edited to add content and links:

Related thread:
Idioteque: So I didn't stand for the pledge today...
Lobby / Latest / Greatest General Discussion
Fri Aug-12-05 03:23 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4330129

Also:

8 Year old suspended for pledging to United Federation of Planets

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United Federation of Planets, and to the galaxy for which it stands, one universe, under everybody, with liberty and justice for all species.

More:
http://blogs.salon.com/0003522/2005/06/06.html#a576

[ernstbass]

30. I'd like to see it banned in school

[mrcheerful]

34. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm Seems some forgot............

The founding fathers were dead set against pledges of any sort. After all King George III wanted the colonies to pledge alegience. So now your expected to pledge alegience to King George IV. Thats un-american to the max.

[valerief]

35. Well said.

[LSK]

36. I say ban it

It promotes State Religion and Nationalism, two of the biggest evils in the world, IMO.

[0007]

37. Exactly

[Wabbajack]

38. I was a kid not too long ago

It's a waste of time. It is MEANINGLESS to kids. A daily annoyance.

[CAcyclist]

39. I want the words "Under God " removed

If they can't do that, then ban it , dammit.

I'm an atheist and I am f%$ing sicked and tired of having religion shoved down my throat every time I turn around.

[mrcheerful]

40. Why should ''We the people'' have to pledge or swear oaths ?

Everyone from the president down are public servents, shouldn't they swear a pledge or take an oath to ''We the people''? When public servents stop serving all americans in favor of special interest groups that pay the most $$$, don't they then stop being servents of the people and start being a payed employee of said groups? Why should I take a pledge or swear an oath to someone who isn't a public servent.