Separation of Church and State anyone?

[Nordmadr]

Olaf

[kweerwolf]

1. I'm all for that ...

but can we do something about separating church and hate first?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

3. Oh boy are you right

the most hateful displays of behavior I have ever encountered all revolved around church politics.

[lildreamer316]

26. BUMPERSTICKER ALERT

Do you mind if I confiscate it? If anyone asks I will attribute it to you.

[kweerwolf]

39. Wish I could claim it as an original thought ...

... but someone told me they had seen it on a bumpersticker a while back and I was just repeating it.

(I'm so ashamed! I've been unmasked as a bumpersticker plagarizer!) :cry:

[AirmensMom]

2. It's the national cathedral, after all,

and it's nice they're having a service. The services there beat the heck out of services at most local churches (especially the music). But WHY do they have to ruin it by letting HIM get up there, where he doesn't belong???? Even if it wasn't a separation of church and state issue, he is so NOT Christian that it's offensive seeing him there. I had just turned it on ... and turned it right back off as soon as he walked up.

:banghead:
(fixed a typo)

[DavidDvorkin]

6. Why do we have a national cathedral?

That's the offensive part, the very existence of such a building.

[freestyle]

7. That's just the name. It gets no government funds.

The Cathedral Church of Saint Peter and Saint Paul is the seat of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington and has never gotten any government funds. It aims to be a house of prayer for all people and commemorates a different U.S. state or territory every Sunday. The Diocese of Washington is one of the most liberal in the Episcopal Church.

[DavidDvorkin]

9. It has a gov't. charter designating it the official US cathedral

If it got US funding, that would be even worse, but the charter and the designation are bad enough.

Moreover, the habit of holding services in it that are given an official stamp in any sense is completely unacceptable.

[Bridget Burke]

10. Martin Luther King gave his last sermon there.

What are the details of the charter?

Do you have an image of an official stamp?

[DavidDvorkin]

12. Google search finds this

http://www.viamediausa.org/cathedra.html

Maybe a longer search would find the text of the charter.

[Bridget Burke]

13. Dated from 1893....

Real current information!

[DavidDvorkin]

14. It's still in effect

And still constitutes the founding document. The National Cathedral still has the official status of the national house of prayer. That designation still violates the Constitution -- which, as you surely know, dates back mroe than a hundred years before that charter.

What a curious objection!

[TechBear_Seattle]

4. Where is it?

Sorry, but I don't see any separation of church and state. What am I missing?

Added: I notice that the Associated Press and all other US news agencies have cropped the photo to make it clear that Shrub was not speaking from the pulpit of a church during a religious service. What was that about "liberal media"?

[mmonk]

5. The founding fathers are getting tired of rolling around in their graves.

[teenagebambam]

40. Look....

...the IDEA for a Cathedral was George Washington's, so I hardly think the founding fathers are rolling in their graves.

From the Cathedral's website, backed up for me yesterday by a talk with a docent AT the cathedral: http://www.cathedral.org/cathedral/discover/history.shtml

In 1791, when Congress selected the site to be the capital of the United States, President George Washington commissioned Major Pierre l’Enfant to design an overall plan for the future seat of government.

Included in l’Enfant’s plan was a church, “intended for national purposes, such as public prayer, thanksgiving, funeral orations, etc., and assigned to the special use of no particular Sect or denomination, but equally open to all.”

[Bernardo de La Paz]

8. New Paradigm: "Re-imbursement" of "christian" churches by taxpayers.

[LA lady]

11. Separation of church and state??

Guess who issued this statement? What the heck is going on!!??

"Today, our great nation comes together in prayer. We pray for our fellow Americans we lost over the days during and after Hurricane Katrina, and for those who survived, who are injured, who lost their homes, who lost everything.

“Today, on this National Day of Prayer and Remembrance, we assure those left behind as the waters rose that they will not been left behind by their American family. They have not lost the amazing grace and wonderful faith, which has sustained us throughout our history. We will be sustained again.

“The loss across Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida is shared by all of us, because we are one nation, whether in time of celebration or pain. Thousands are homeless and have lost so much, too many have died and too many continue to suffer.

“It is also through our prayers today that we are renewed and reminded of the work ahead. Our actions must reflect our words. Our deeds must be as bold as our prayers. If not, then we have made a mockery of the worshipful act of prayer.

“The Old Testament prophet, Amos, tells us that God wants justice, not just words of worship. ‘Let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream,’ said the prophet.

“And this must be at the heart of our prayers today. The waters and winds of destruction came down on our fellow citizens on the Gulf Coast. Now, it is our divine charge to bring down the waters of justice; justice in providing for, supporting, rebuilding and serving those who suffer – all who suffer.

“This we will do. We must. In prayer and action I stand with my American family today. Let us send our prayers together and in the days ahead continue in this faithful spirit of unity to bringing justice, hope and comfort to our fellow citizens on the Gulf Coast.”

[onager]

15. We only need a National Cathedral...

...if we think we have a National God.

[bluedawg12]

16. they want an american taliban. extreme fundy model in Afgh.

it didn't work out too well there did it?

We will never freaking learn.

[cantstandbush]

17. Actually, I was quite impressed with the message from Rev. Jakes.

Who is he? I sure would like to hear a full sermon by him. He touched on all the right places and was very moving.

[onager]

21. "Rev." T.D. Jakes is the typical snake-oil salesman

He's the head of a mega-church in Dallas and a great friend of all things Bu$h. Poke around sites like BlackElectorate.com and you'll see folks asking hard questions about why Jakes and his fellow black superstar preachers never criticize this Madministration.

Oh, and Jakes is also known for his "ministry to women," through such hokey pop-religion books as "Woman Thou Art Loosed." IMO, some women ought to be loosed upside his head with baseball bats.

He's basically Creflo Dollar with a hard-on.

I'm not surprised that you found his message inspiring. That is, no more surprised than I would be to find that an expensive plumber had fixed my sink.

That's his BUSINESS.

[cantstandbush]

23. I listened to the MESSAGE. Why kill the messenger?

I think if anyone can step back from the messenger for just a moment, the message was powerful and one that should move even Bush. I really think it was one the best messages I have heard from anyone in a long, long time. It was a "Christian" message that this Christian really appreciated.

[TankLV]

35. Just joined up to post this tidbit of your "wisdom", did ya?

Interesting.

I thinks anything this WAR CRIMINAL does is insulting at best, no matter what words he MOUTHS (he certainly doesn't believe in them, let alone know their meaning!).

[StellaBlue]

31. Agree

His books, just looking at the covers, make me want to :puke:.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire Walk With Me]

22. No closed system of beliefs which denies external tools of scrutiny

is mind control. Just because you can only decided do do what they recommend doesn't make you a slave.

[Poiuyt]

19. He was giving a political speech at a prayer meeting!

Talking about tax breaks, etc. Does this guy ever stop campaigning??

[sepia_steel]

20. Yes please. eom

[Robertwf]

24. Worship at St. Halliburton's on Sunday

This is getting more and more offensive. Next thing you know he will wear a clip on halo.

[StellaBlue]

32. hahaha

:rofl:

That was classic.

[teenagebambam]

25. Some clarification....

I work at the National Cathedral, and as Freestyle said, it is the seat of the Episcopal diocese of Washington and receives no federal funding of any kind. It's charter is to be a house of prayer for all people, and while many may object to that in principle, for occasions like yesterday's service they really DO go out of their way to make sure it is inclusive of ALL people. Yesterday's service included a Rabbi, an Imam, a Greek Orthodox priest, and a gospel choir.

As to "Bush spesking from the pulpit" - he WASN'T. He was speaking from the lectern, which is on the opposite side of the building from the pulpit. This is where all the readings, prayers, cantoring - anything non-preaching is done. The ONLY person who speaks from the pulpit is the clegy that delivers the sewrmon each week.

I was at yesterday's service, and being a DUer, was eager to find something to be catty and bitchy about, but couldn't. It really was a very nice service, completely appropriate for its purpose. Reverend Jakes' sermon was shockingly socialistic, especially since he was, preumably, chosen or at least approved by Bush.

The cathedral, across the board, is progressive and liberal. I am gay, as is at least one of the clergy members, and obviously a democrat, and have NEVER heard anything objectionable in my year and a half of working there. In fact, the red-state tourists are often compelled to walk out after sermons, they're so progressive.

[lildreamer316]

27. Per your first paragraph

(I'm not attacking; just pointing out.)
So where is my Wiccan preistess? Pagan religions & Wicca are the fastest growing religion in the US and have been for at least 5 years. They really need to wake up.

I have been there once (years ago); it is a beautiful place. Must be exciting for you to work there. I hope to drag my SO up there soon (not including 24th) for a little touristy trip.

[teenagebambam]

28. Okay, it's not ALL-inclusive....

....but we do have a choirman who's a Pagan.

[lildreamer316]

38. Cool!

I'm just lamenting that they think they've got it covered with what they have. Thier lack of interest in the others mentioned is just irritating; but I'm sure they can only do so much.It's just that it IS the National Cathedral. Oh, well.
Hope you have a great day!

[TankLV]

36. No buddhists or hindus, either.

Yeah - some "inclusiveness" alright!

[Zhade]

29. Sure, I'll even have seconds.

Mmmm, I loves me some separation of church and state!

[StellaBlue]

30. bwhahahahahahahahaha

:rofl:

He can't even be a decent politician-rhetoritician - how can he help but fail hilariously as a religious rhetoritician?

And why the f*ck do we have a National Cathedral, anyway? I am going to start a co-op to buy some land in DC and have a National Secularium.

wtf?

[teenagebambam]

34. We have a National Cathedral

because some people got together in 1904 and decided to raise money and buy land and build a cathedral and call it National. It gets nothing from the government - so, I guess if you could find the donors your secularium would fly.

[StellaBlue]

37. haha

The very thought is making me laugh. Secularium. hahahahaha.

Thing is, I am disgusted by the media collusion with the whole concept. It's a self-appointed 'national' cathedral. Just like * is a self-appointed visionary and prophet. Etc. etc. etc.

:puke:

It doesn't represent my views or the views of many other Americans. I resent it.

edited for spelling

[renie408]

33. I really hate that man.

And I know looking at that picture that he gave that whole speech with a big woody. He would have been SO excited to be speaking from a pulpit. *gag*

[lynne]

41. I'm not sure what the problem is here . . .

- is it because we have a "National" Cathedral - because we had a day of prayer - or because Bush spoke from the pulpit? Or all three?

I think we have to be careful how we criticize this because we - meaning Democratic candidates and politicians - have been known to speak in churches, too. We are not strangers to the pulpit.

[teenagebambam]

42. Once again....

....he was NOT SPEAKING FROM THE PULPIT. He was speaking from the lectern, which is where any non-clergymember speaks from. The pulpit is on the opposite side of the cathedral.

And I was there - no woody in evidence (I looked!)

[lynne]

43. Okay, lectern then -

- but that doesn't change nor does it answer my question.

[teenagebambam]

44. I guess what I'm saying is -

- I'm with you. I don't see a problem either. I mean, aside from, you know, the unavoidable problem of Bush actually being the Presdident.