"Three Options, Each Is Repugnant"...from Al Jazeera

[renie408]

The following is from the Opinion page of Al Jazeera and was written by Sandy Shanks:

America has three courses of action in war-torn Iraq, and the most likely of the three is Bush's Stay the Course option. It is combined with the surreal optimism that we may begin to withdraw our forces during the spring or summer of 2006.

<big snip>

Those who urge immediate withdrawal from Iraq consistently fail to deal with the long-term ramifications of our surrender in Iraq and espouse only on the immediate rewards of such a policy. Their thoughts are guided by the Vietnam Syndrome. It is a bad war, they say, caused by illegitimate reasons, and it is time to cut our losses. Yes, very appealing.

And very shortsighted. The first two options offer only defeat for America and the Iraqi people. The third option looms. It is proffered by colonels and below, the generals being too obsequious. The spectre of another Vietnam is galvanising America into inaction, and Bush is reluctant to commit additional troops out of fear of a severe political backlash, and, yet that is exactly what he should do.

Much more....


http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/87AB4347-4FDF-4BEE-AB27-32B01A6F5F4C.htm

[despairing optimist]

1. It was the same argument used during Vietnam

That the military was being forced by bleeding-heart liberals to fight with one hand tied behind its back, and if only it could nuke Vietnam and destroy all living things, we'd win for sure.

It didn't win over many people then, and I doubt it will now. What's good about this news is that it shows how much faster events are moving in this particular senseless war, thanks to instant information--both visual and textual.

[dmkinsey]

5. I have a Vietnam vet here at work

He's all for nuking Iraq.
I just put it down to too much Agent Orange.

[maxsolomon]

14. let me guess

NOT a front-line troop?

[mike_c]

6. yep-- been there, done that, and lost everything in the end....

They will never learn. This isn't a clash of armies. Like Vietnam, it is essentially an army (the U.S.) fighting against a partisan citizen resistence that is much less militarized than the NVA was. In other words, the oppositiion isn't the Iraqi military-- it's the Iraqi PEOPLE, and the only way to "win" is to pound the people-- a populace largely innocent of the initial causes for the invasion-- into numb and bleeding submission. "Winning" in Iraq can come only at the cost of becoming the monsters we (supposedly) set out banish. THERE SIMPLY IS NO FORMULA FOR WINNING IN IRAQ-- at least no honorable one, and no victory that can possibly be achieved is worth the cost.

We need to GET OUT NOW and pay reparations through the U.N. for the crime the U.S. has committed in Iraq. Yes, it will get worse before it gets better. That's a consequence of the war crime we committed when we invaded-- we cannot change that. Instead, we should insure the prosecution of the people who're responsible and help do what we can to mitigate the damage later. But the healing cannot begin until the U.S. leaves. Period.

[eridani]

31. Not true--we can win in Iraq, and could have won in Vietnam

The fly in the ointment is that genocide has to be a serious option on the table. I think you hit the nail on the head with the addendum "at least not an honorable one."

[mike_c]

34. I'm not sure....

We killed something like 1.1 MILLION Vietnamese, and that didn't work. It would have to be some serious genocide, e.g. on a nuclear scale, IMO. And that would simply inflame the region further. No, I don't think that even with genocide on the table the U.S. can "win" anything in Iraq.

[maxsolomon]

12. well, that's true

to subjugate a populace you must brutalize it. state terror. at a certain point, you win, but you lose your soul.

from apocalypse now:

KURTZ
" I've seen horrors...horrors that you've seen. But you have no right to call
me a murderer. You have a right to kill me. You have a right to do that...But
you have no right to judge me. It's impossible for words to describe what is
necessary to those who do not know what horror means.
Horror. Horror has a face...And you must make a friend of horror. Horror and
moral terro rare your friends. If they are not then they are enemies to be feared.
They are truly enemies. I remember when I was with Special Forces...Seems
a thousand centuries ago...We went into a camp to innoculate the children.
We left the camp after we had innoculated the children for Polio, and this old
man came running after us and he was crying. He couldn't see. We went
back there and they had come and hacked off every innoculated arm. There
they were in a pile...A pile of little arms. And I remember...I...I...I cried...
I wept like some grandmother. I wanted to tear my teeth out. I didn't know what I
wanted to do. And I want to remember it. I never want to forget it. I never want
to forget. And then I realized...like I was shot...Like I was shot with a
diamond...a diamond bullet right through my forehead...And I thought:
My God...the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect,
genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were
stronger than we. Because they could stand that these were not
monsters...These were men...trained cadres...these men who fought with
their hearts, who had families, who had children, who were filled with
love...but they had the strength...the strength...to do that. If I had ten
divisions of those men our troubles here would be over very quickly. You
have to have men who are moral...and at the same time who are able to
utilize their primordal instincts to kill without feeling...without passion...
without judgement...without judgement. Because it's judgement that
defeats us.

[despairing optimist]

19. Chicken or egg? Who came first, the neocons or Colonel Kurtz?

Thanks for helping me remember Apocalypse Now. We're now in Apocalypse Too.

My favorite Vietnam war movie is Platoon, also a number of memorable lines. One of the last was, we lost Vietnam because we were at war with ourselves. Here we go again.

Things will get worse before they get better, but the process is working through at a faster pace this time around. Small consolation for those who have suffered and lost so much, and for those who must still suffer and lose.

[Team44Car]

2. Kucinich has the plan for complete US withdrawl

It is the only plan, the only way.
Immediate, peaceful, far reaching.
The person who wrote this article is insane.

[Nederland]

7. Yes he does

but is it a "secret" plan?

[Team44Car]

8. Dennis is totally ignored but he has the entire workable plan

Bush does not care about a humane, correct soluction.
Sounds like, at this point, most Democrats don't care a whole lot either.

They just want to send more troops to git er duun.

[renie408]

10. Can you please post a link?

I would be interested to see how he manages a complete pullout without fucking the Iraqi people any more than we already have.

[Team44Car]

13. I spoke to Dennis about this in person

I am not certain what his website says.
Essentially: we get out; the EU, the UN
and Arab nations get in.
Arab nations keep the peace - and this is key - after all, it is definitely in their own best interest.
The US helps pay to rebuild what we have ruined.
Iraqis are employed wherever possible.
A windfall profit tax on the US contractors who
have taken money for doing would keep the US tax payer
from getting double charged.

Let the chips fall where they may, as they will anyway.

I will look around for a link to this.

Does not matter anyway, bush is not leaving. Period.

[renie408]

15. This is similar...

to some other options I have been reading that made sense to me. Getting the US face off of the reconstruction.

I have these fantasies where Dems win big in 2006 and impeach Bush. Cheney dies of a heart attack (sorry, I am not typically blood thirsty, but I can't see how Cheney can be allowed to live) and we manage to have some kind of SMART way to draw down troops and rebuild Iraq.

[Nederland]

23. That's not a workable plan

The EU, the UN and Arab nations have no interest into taking over this fiasco. Any "plan" that assumes they do is fatally flawed.

[Yupster]

24. Agree Nederland

The idea that France and Germany are all the sudden going to agree to send in EU troops is ridiculous.

Same with the UN. They won't even set up a headquarters.

The Arab countries have no interest in a democratic Iraq. Why should they help. It would only come back to haunt them.

It sounds like my plan for getting $ 10 million.

Step 1 -- want $ 10 million

Step 3 -- have a guy send me $ 10 million

I haven't thought of step 2 yet.

[mike_c]

26. I think we should all get over any illusions that a "plan" exists...

...that will somehow "fix" the problem we've created in Iraq. We have created a bloodbath that is now self-sustaining, and will remain so until all the participants are exhausted. There is nothing we can do to change that, IMO.

[Team44Car]

28. Exactly. We should get out now - but bush is not leaving

There is no plan on bush's desk.
Leaving is not even being considered.

[arewenotdemo]

29. Git er duun

or "finish the job".

God these fucks are sick.

[renie408]

9. I don't think pulling out is going to work, either.

HOW CAN WE PULL OUT? It sucks, I mean REALLY sucks that we are there. Really. BADLY. It is a no win situation. But do you understand one of the reasons that region hates us so much? Because we played war in '91 and then picked up our toys and went home. If we do it again, HOLY SHIT, do ya THINK we'll be giving terrorist organizations their reason for being for the foreseeable future?

Absolute best case scenario...wait, I don't even think there IS a best case scenario. I don't see WHAT we can do. But pulling out probably isn't going to work. How can we leave that country in the condition it is in? Who is going to pay for fixing it? Who is going to do the work of fixing it?

I don't have the answers, but just saying, "Leave now and anybody who says differently is insane." seems shortsighted to me.

[mike_c]

16. we must leave now....

What you and everyone else who says "but leaving will only create more chaos" seems not to understand is that THERE IS NO WORKABLE ALTERNATIVE short of murdering a huge proportion of the civilian population of Iraq, and that will likely just cause the conflict to spread anyway.

Yes, Iraq and perhaps other countries in the region will dissolve into further chaos if the U.S. pulls out. Yes, the only long-term solutions likely are worse than the initial conditions when Saddam Hussein was in power. We and the Iraqis are simply going to have to live with that outcome. It is a direct consequence of our illegal and ill-considered invasion. We cannot "undo" the damage that has already been done, and all of our attempts are only making the situation worse. It sucks, but that's reality. The only question is how many more will die until we face those consequences?

[renie408]

20. So we just leave and the murder will happen anyway

They will just murder each other.

God, I really hate George Bush. He has in a completely untenable situation. We will be the bad guys whether we stay or whether we pull out.

[mike_c]

25. yes-- that's exactly what we'll be....

mike_c's corollary to the Pottery Barn rule: Once something's broken, continuing to smash it is of little practical utility.

Seriously, the invasion was a crime of aggression. The occupation is an ongoing war crime. We cannot undo that-- we became the "bad guys" the moment U.S. troops crossed the border into Iraq on false pretenses. The murder will continue whether we go or stay, BECAUSE we invaded and occupied in the first place. Continuing any crime generally serves only to make it worse.

[arewenotdemo]

30. Not shortsighted at all.

It's the only sane thing to do.

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. He's arguing for exactly what the military establishment wanted

in Vietnam in 1965 - which is why we went from 40,000 to 400,000 troops there in twelve months.

Moron.

[warrens]

4. What troops?

Oh, I get it. Bring back the draft. Sorry, no dice.

There is no solution to this mess. The longer we stay, the worse it gets. Pull out our troops, impeach the whole gang of war criminals, then turn them over to the Iraqis for war crimes trials. It's the least we could do for them, and the public executions might help them to unite the country.

[renie408]

11. I am really afraid you are right

That there really IS no solution to this mess. Pullout works for us, but what about Iraq? Staying doesn't seem to work for anybody. I am going to try to find out what Kucinich's plan for pullout is and if it covers rebuilding the country.

[mike_c]

17. that is exactly what we should do-- what an honorable people...

...would do. Of course, it's probably a pipe-dream....

[killbotfactory]

18. Iraq is going down the tubes whethere we are there or not

Bush and the pro-war faction have shed innocent blood for a lie. Shedding more blood isn't going to make things better or justify the lie. Get the fuck out now.

[Disturbed]

22. After a few thousand posts about this...

I see the same pros and cons. What do the majority of Iraqis want? Do they want the Occupation to end and the Foreign Troops to leave their country?

[mike_c]

27. part of the problem is that there isn't any homogeneous "Iraq..."

...left to express an opinion. Certainly the puppet government that Paul Bremmer set up wants the U.S. to stay-- their lives depend upon U.S. military protection from their own countrymen. That's rather telling all by itself. Certainly the majority of the Sunnis want the occupiers out. I'd guess that most Shia feel the same way, even though the occupation has been the key to their gaining authority over the Ba'athists. I wouldn't hazard a guess about the Kurds-- they simply want their autonomy, and the U.S. occupation probably touches them the least, at least in the northern cities.

[renie408]

33. Bingo

I told my husband that Iraq is like three pissed off pitbulls who have been tied together. They are all pulling in different directions and stopping occasionally to chew each other up and then off they go again.

I think it is going to end with a secular Kurdistan harrassd by Turkey and some insurgents and a Shia-stan which is a theocracy that looks to Iran and is MAJORLY harrassed by Sunni insurgents and a middling no-man's land where the Sunnis primarily starve and from which they attack everybody else.

[renie408]

32. Sorry if I am boring you

It is something that I am trying to understand. I hear people say "We need to get out now." and I can see, to a degree, the merit in what they are saying, but it feels wrong to me. Then I listen to the people who say, "Right or wrong, we are there and we have to fix it and pulling out isn't going to do that." And, to a degree, I can see their point, but I can't see how that is going to work, either. And I think that calling them 'the Iraqi people' is a little simple. If all of the 'Iraqi people' wanted one thing, they wouldn't be killing the shit out of each other.

[Jacobin]

21. His Option Two WAS Viet Nam

Whoever wrote this is an uninformed putz.

LBJ increased troop levels and they ended up going to 550,000 at a time.

It simply ground up more meat on both sides.