A man's right to choose.

[gulliver]

Sometimes we forget that abortion prohibition affects men. Forced motherhood means forced fatherhood. It also means added responsibilities in a man's sex life. And then there are the parents of teenage boys...

Clearly women are the primary stakeholders in the right to choose, but men (and the parents of boys) are also stakeholders.

On edit: The point I am trying to make is that men have something to lose too if abortion becomes prohibited or prohibitively difficult to obtain. In reality, they too are losing choice. I'm not sure they always realize that.

[Maine Mary]

1. I'm against any type of abortion prohibition

But...men should be using birth control if they don't want to be a father.

[rocktivity]

8. DING DING DING! Maine Mary, you're our grand prize winner!

...(M)en should be using birth control if they don't want to be a father.

Right--USE A CONDOM, fellas! Every single time. Even if you KNOW that she's using birth control, too. And ESPECIALLY if you DON'T know!

:pals:
rocknation

[spacelady]

21. So should women, even more so since they will be carrying and caring

for any child that may come from a sexual coupling. Women who cannot take responsibility for the children that THEY CHOOSE to bring into the world should not lay blame. After all they have the CHOICE. Where is the man's choice once conception occurs? Choice brings certain responsibilities on the woman's part. Equality means men have a say also.

[Patchuli]

28. The man has the right

to slap a condom on that thang too, you know.

[spacelady]

117. Gee, thanks for enlightening me. n/t

[leanin_green]

155. Yeah? How many of us actually get to use the choice?

I, for one, was on the receiving end of a lack of choice. I got a casual lover pregnant. I asked her how she wanted to proceed, seeing as how it was her body were my thoughts on the matter. I was ready to accept whatever choice she made. I had fun, too, ya know. She decided to keep the child. Okay, I thought. We'll have to set-up some sort of trust for the child and a monthly stipend for their care. What? Your not going to marry me or want to raise the child with me? Was her question. That's no reason to get married was my reply. I have plenty of examples of that arrangement in my family, such wonderful families and emotionally adjusted kids they turned out to be! No, no thanks, but I'll take care of my responsibilities if you want the child.

Well, as things didn't turn out like she had hoped, she began to manipulate further. Why do some people believe that a child coming into the world is supposed to magically transform feelings between the people involved? I told her I couldn't manufacture feelings I didn't have. I also pointed out that I hadn't once heard anything from her about the child. It seemed to be a means towards some desired end. If that continued, I would have to look into gaining custody of the child myself and raise them on my own, because I don't think she had the needs of the child at heart. Thankfully, nature had an answer, a tubal pregnancy that had to be terminated. She wouldn't even let me be there for the procedure. I guess I was being punished for not following the script.

The choice, to me, is always the woman's. The best that men can do is to take responsibility for our pleasures, without guilt. I hadn't done anything except enjoy the physical intimacy of another consenting adult. We took precautions, but shit happens. Own your part in it, make any adjustments that you deem appropriate according to your individual conscience, and be a man. In truth, it's the only real choice any man has.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

79. hoowhaaaaa mary!

[Mutley]

156. You are right...

But it is just as much the woman's responsibility to use BC as it is the man's.

[roguevalley]

2. small stake holders but true. men often run and are never seen again.

this is a hot issue. edit: the day men can have the baby is the day this issue will be settled. As for men running, I have known some who have. I have known some who stayed.

I agree with the idea of no prohibitions on birth control. I also believe in good sex ed. its no wonder pregnancies and abortions have risen under these faux christian prudes.

[GCP]

3. Huh??

I'm lost :shrug:

[Iris]

36. When women are forced to bear children, the men who love them are also

forced into life choices they might not have otherwise made.

Such as working 18 hour shifts, 7 days a week to keep food on the table and shoes on many feet.

[dhinojosa]

4. Pfft. Whatever.....

A man isn't obligated to stick around it's his right to choose whether to stay or go.

:sarcasm:

[spacelady]

23. Birth control for women has advanced enough so that an unplanned pregnancy

would be very rare, IF women would take their reproductive CHOICES seriously, but statistically and sadly, that is not the case. Women have choices upon conception, men don't.

[Patchuli]

29. Men do have a choice to be responsible

and use a condom! I disagree because it takes two to make a child.

[radwriter0555]

33. Actually, I call bullshit on that. Birth control hasn't changed much in 30

some odd years. It is archaic and compromising at best; the hormones in the pill SERIOUSLY screw you up and have even been linked to cancers, not to mention that it can easily be compromised by antibiotics and other medications; condoms date back to ancient egypt, the diaphram is worse than condoms; the under the skin crap has proven to be seriously problematic and those patch things are MORE hormonal screwings up; tubal ligation, unless done immediately after childbirth is hidesoully invasive, painful and compromising, and it's not even foolproof;

Honestly, abortion IS the only foolproof, safe and legal method to resolve unwanted pregnancies. The idea of screwing with a woman's hormones has proven to be deadly and costly; just take a look at HRT for menopause, touted as the cure all for hot flashes, based on the same premise as the pill, and now has proven to cause cancers.

So far, the most effective and least problematic form of birth control are the cute little corks in the fallopian tubes, but it is a rare and expensive and invasive procedure and not covered by insurance that I know of.

Women's safe and effective choices for birth control are simply and always, controlled by men, and therefore, archaic and ineffective. Men just don't care about contraception, since they're not the ones who have to deal with the ramifications; it's all up to the women.

Our choices are limited to cancer causing and mind screwing pills that you have to remember every single day; condoms, ew, nasty, diaphrams, how romantic, patches, ouch, announce to the world YOU ARE HAVING SEX, and a wierd little vial under your skin emitting more hormones to mess you up.

Oh goody!

What we need is a pill for MEN and a dot on them that changes color when it's effective.

Or exploration into cryonics to stash all your eggs and sperms, render you EACH unfertile until you both decide to embark upon planned parenthood together or in contract. Science fiction-ish, but effective and far more safe really.

[Patchuli]

40. OH BS!

Men have condoms and men can have vasectomies. That is the worst excuse I have ever heard.

You can bet your bottom dollar if men got knocked up, they'd have the PILL! They actually do have the pill for men but they're still testing it. They threw the womens' pill right out on the market with little testing but Lord forbid any men should be hurt by a pill.

Men have just as much responsibility. If they can't handle it, KEEP IT IN YOUR PANTS.

[prolesunited]

58. Absolutely!

Pregnancy is a woman's punishment for having sex.

[Andromeda]

65. Men do have a choice whether they want a ...

sex partner to conceive or not. You must think that men are mindless robots who have no will of their own. All they have to do is wear a condom, or MAYBE just decide not to have sex at all. Hows that for a novel idea?

What is this thing you have about laying all the responsibility on women but absolving men of any. Not all women have choices in an unplanned pregnancy. Some women are victims of incest or rape.

[formernaderite]

69. A condom is no guarantee...

basically you're promoting abstinence...condoms can be errr....tampered with. Look, obviously a woman has the final say on "what" she does with her body...I just think there is a bit of a double standard when men who have no wish to father a child just yet, are saddled into fatherhood even though they practised "safe" sex. At least the father should have a say in whether he would like the child put up for adoption, if not on whether a woman should carry it to term. As much as women claim this doesn't happen I have two buddies who this did happen to...one was thrilled at the errr...surprise. The other has gone to hell and back, and never even gotten to see the child.

To be clear, this has never happened to me...I am a proud father and step-father, although the oldest kids just call me dad.

[spacelady]

90. As a woman who would do everything possible to avoid an unplanned

pregnancy, I insist on being in charge of my own birth control, rather than rely on the man or the condom, both may be unreliable, so I'm not taking any chances. As for the victims of incest or rape facing pregnancy, that is a horrible ordeal no doubt, but these victims still have the right to choose whether or not to end the pregnancy.

[Iris]

37. Nice.

You want men to act a certain way and then you dismiss them all as inhuman cads. Some men would find it very hard to simply walk away and even the ones who do are financially obligated.

[sniffa]

5. don't worry

i'm sure if abortion is ever outLawed, they'LL simuLtaneousLy enact, the deadbeat dad act to shieLd man from having to support his sired spawn financiaLLy.

[ovidsen]

14. Not good enough

I think the deadbeat dad act has too many negative implications. It suggests that some men might be, you know, um, irresponsible. Or something. In the spirit of an administration that named a bill weakening pollution laws "The Clear Skies Act", the bill absolving men of any and all obligations that might result from pregnancies they have contributed to shall be named...

"THE MEN'S LIBERATION ACT"

Whaddya think? Catchy?:7

[sniffa]

18. perfect

i think it couLd even be improved.

THE PATRIOTIC MEN'S LIBERATION ACT

[Bernardo de La Paz]

6. No "added responsibilities in a man's sex life". Be responsible anyway!

It is just nonsense to say "added responsibilities". You have a duty to be responsible regardless, because an abortion is rarely a walk in the park for a woman, it is a significant medical event. SO BE RESPONSIBLE!

[gulliver]

7. Agreed. Maybe the word "considerations" would ...

... have been more appropriate. I was just trying to point out that in an abortion prohibiting state, a man would have more to worry about ... "responsible" or not. The need for choice is there, and men have something to lose if it isn't.

[Zhade]

9. A woman gets the final say over HER body and HER medical decisions.

Period. End of story.

[gulliver]

11. Of course. I guess my headline is no good.

Read the rest of the post, if you don't mind. I'm trying to point out that the loss of choice affects men -- with the idea of building support for choice among men.

[Zhade]

12. Okay, I getcha now.

Just been banging heads with an anti-choicer in LBN, so I guess I'm trigger-happy.

Anti-choicers should not be welcome at this PROGRESSIVE website, IMHO.

[dsc]

43. Yeah people like Dennis Kucinich and David Bonior have no fucking

right to call themselves progressives but Arnold S and Rudy G do.

[loudsue]

55. DENNIS KUCINICH IS PRO-CHOICE!! DENNIS IS PRO-CHOICE!!

Take your nonsense somewhere else. This has been discussed ad infinitum.

I'm sick of your lies about him.

:kick:

[Zhade]

60. Indeed.

NT!

[dsc]

68. what about Bonior

[Zhade]

84. I can't speak to that - I don't know Bonior.

I *do* know Kucinich, and there's no way I would have voted for him had he been anti-choice.

[dsc]

113. I could be a snot and say google is your friend

since both you and another poster accused me of lying about Dennis when all of what I said, a) he was pro life for over 90% of his political career and b) switched within months of running for President are true. But I will say Bonior was majority and then minority whip in the House for several years (since the late 1980's I believe) during which time he compiled a very liberal record on economic and foreign policy issues but a strictly pro life one on social issues. All of this is a matter of public record. He gave up his seat to run for Governor and lost in the primaries to Granholm.

[dsc]

67. He was pro life for well over 90% of his political career

He switched a minute before he ran for President. But if you don't like him what about Bonior.

[loudsue]

78. Bull.

He switched after his female colleagues in the House ganged up on him, and explained it to him.

He LEARNED. I wish YOU were able to learn.

:kick:

[Zhade]

85. The irony is that I've seen dsc lean anti-choice in the past.

If he were to suddenly be 100% behind a woman's right to choose, I'd say he learned, not that he was opportunistic.

Thanks for again laying out what happened. I get really tired of the same bullshit.

[dsc]

109. The poster is flat out wrong

unless you believe that there were no women in Congress from 1996 to 2002 when he finally flip flopped. If I were to switch positions immediately before running for office, I would hope you would at least entertain the possibility I was being an opportunist as opposed to taking it at face value.

[dsc]

108. There were no women in the House from 1996 to 2002

during which time he compiled a near perfect pro life record? Or how about in the Ohio legislature where he served for two years again compiling a nearly perfect pro life record. Were there no women in Ohio when he ran for my Congressional seat in 1992 again as a pro life candidate? It was only in 2002 when he changed his position on abortion and he ran for President only months afterward. Somehow I think that the run for President was a wee bit more important than those women, who I am pretty sure existed prior to 2002.

[Lecky]

121. As someone who is pro-choice, I disagree with you

I don't agree with alienating an entire group of people because of that one issue.

[Spinzonner]

16. Well, legally that's not the total reality now

However, that is not in question when it comes to abortion.

The question is what say she has over the child she is pregnant with and when that child's rights - such as they exist - become a factor and to what extent.

[jonkronz2003]

72. Not a level playing field then..

Why should that be the case when in states like NY, if a married man wants a vasectomy, he must get his wife's permission before the procedure will be performed. Sounds like a double standard to me.

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. HER body, HER medical decisions... and THEIR future.

As it stands, it's an individual choice to impose an unequally-shared collective responsibility.

When I married, I agreed to share everything with my wife. Prior to that point, I had not. Sex does not imply a lifetime commitment.

Prior to our wedding, my wife was conscious enough of the ramifications of that choice (to her, as well as me and to our hypothetical children) that she waited until after we were married to choose to have children. And yes, with the state of contraception, unless the man chooses sterilization, the choice is for all practical purposes solely the woman's.

We now have three sons, the eldest in his mid-teens and I would have thought by now that a male oral contraceptive would be available.

I can only advise them to each choose as fortunately as I have - but luck plays a big role.

[spacelady]

116. A very thoughtful answer, lumberjack_jeff,

see my post #90. Same page?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. with the advent of DNA testing

it is now much easier to determine the father of a baby and to hold him responsible for support. In earlier times, this was harder to determine, and it was easier for men to shirk their responsibilities.

[Meldread]

13. Thank god I am gay.

Men are always overlooked when it comes to these types of issues. When it comes to divorce and custody of children the Mother always gets president over the Father. Why is that? Men can't be effective nurturers to children? When it comes to abortion, I'm pro-choice, but I'd certainly be more than a little pissed if I accidentally got a woman knocked up and then she turned around and terminated my child without my consent. (Although, ironically enough if I didn't want anything to do with the child and the woman did, I'd hear chants of "It took two! It took two!")

When it comes to family life men get the shaft. Don't even get me started on male spouse abuse or Male Sexual Harassment (which most folks don't even acknowledge exists).

It just makes me sick when I see gender inequality. I believe in EQUALITY FOR ALL. That means being on a equal playing field across the board. It means making women sign up for the draft, not just men. It means helping eliminate pay discrepancies between women and men in the work force, and it means being equal in the family and the home.

[Yupster]

15. Agree Meldread

I'm an old married guy, but I believe in the Right to Choose for both men and women.

That means a woman should decide whether she wants to be a parent or not which means she must have the 100 % say on whether to birth or abort.

I also believe a man should have the right to choose whether he becomes a father or not, which means that once he finds out his partner (that he is not married to) is pregnant, he should have the right to choose whether he will walk away or support the child. He should make that choice known far enough in advance so that the woman will be able to make an informed decision whether to birth or abort. There should be no more stigma attached to walking away as there is to aborting.

I do not believe a man is agreeing to be a dad by the act of having sex any more than I believe a woman is agreeing to be a mom by the act of her having sex.

No one should be forced to be a parent without their consent.

To me that's a Right To Choose.

The current standard that a man is agreeing to be a dad by having sex but a woman isn't is intolerably sexist to me, and eventually must be overturned.

[spacelady]

22. Thank you, finally someone who gets it.

Women fought and died for the right to choose. They should not sully that bravery by using men as a financial crutch to justify their choice to have a baby.
On the other hand, there is the devil's advocate POV that if a woman who becomes pregnant chooses to abort, but her male partner wants the child--WHAT THEN? Should she be forced to carry the child? My opinion is of course not; so why should the male partner be forced into parenthood?

[Yupster]

25. You make a good point Spacelady

Whether to have the baby born or not cannot in the end be a joint decision, so the two sexes cannot be treated equally.

So, we need to do the best we can to approach equality.

Here's my proposal...

This is for unmarrieds only.

When an unmarried woman finds out she's pregnant, she should have a reasonable amount of time to tell the presumed father of the fact.

At that point, the father would have one week to inform the mother by official form whether he will assume responsibility for the child as a father or not. There should be no stigma attached to either choice he makes. It is his right to choose.

Once the woman receives the man's official answer, then she can make her own informed decision on whether she wants to carry the fetus to term or not. There should be no stigma on whichever choice she makes as it is her right to choose.

The decision will be entirely the woman's to make. She has the right to make it since it is her body. However, she does not have the right to make decisions for the man. He has the right to choose whether he becomes a parent too.

[dsc]

45. That is crazy

The support at issue is the right of the child not the woman. Why should society have to support children of irresponsible men who simply don't wish to pay. They can't be forced to actually rear the child but they should be forced to pay for its rearing.

[Yupster]

48. Society should support the child because

that's what good societies do. They support the vulnerable and helpless.

A man should not be forced to support a child that he did not want.

When a man has sex, he is not agreeing to be a father. Same goes for a woman.

The state should have no right to force a man to pay for a child that he didn't want. That's oppression unless you feel that when a man drops his drawers, he is agreeing to be a parent.

If you agree with that thinking, you would also agree with the same thinking for a woman too. If a woman doesn't want to have a baby, well then she had best better keep her knees together.

I don't think so. I believe we are a little more progressive in our thinking about sex today, realizing that the act of having sex is in no way an agreement to be a parent. Or it seems many of us are just that way when it comes to women , not men.

[raccoon]

75. "the act of having sex is in no way an agreement to be a parent. "

But the reality is, when a man and woman have sex, there's always the possibility of pregnancy resulting unless at least one partner is sterile.

[Yupster]

80. That is very true

"But the reality is, when a man and woman have sex, there's always the possibility of pregnancy resulting unless at least one partner is sterile."

But luckily in America, once a woman finds out she is pregnant, she does not have to be a parent if she chooses not to be one. She has the legal right to abort the fetus, or she can birth her child and then send it to another family via adoption.

Having sex does not mean you are agreeing to be a parent.

Even getting pregnant does not mean you are agreeing to be a parent.

The woman has the right to choose whether she becomes a parent or not.

We do overwhelmingly support this concept don't we?

Well the question then is what about the man?

Why should a man be forced to be the legl dad of a child that he did not want?

Obviously a man cannot choose whether a baby is born or not since the baby happens to be in the woman's body, but certainly a man should have the right to choose whether he wants to take on the legal and financial obligations of parenting a child for 18 years.

It seems this would be an easy call.

No one should be forced to be a parent without their consent.

[Southpaw Bookworm]

157. But what about married couples?

How should the process work for them?

[Yupster]

162. A good question Southpaw

What about married couples.

I think that should really get its own thread since I think the two cases should be legally treated differently.

My personal opinion is that a marriage is a contract so the man is under more obligation to the woman's choice since he is contractually obligated to her.

A man having casual sex with a woman he barely knows in my opinion is under no obligation to follow her choice. If she wants to be a mother that's great, but she should leave him out of her choice, and he should be no way obligated by whatever choice she makes.

To me marriage would make a big legal difference if I got to make the rules.

[formernaderite]

70. Wow....I really hope you are not an anomaly amongst women

you've nailed it.

[spacelady]

89. I seem to be an anomaly, but that's okay. I have lived with a situation

for many years, and have thought about the discrepancies of "the right to choose" between the sexes. The "keep it in your pants" talk is about as effective as the "War on Drugs". Very tiresome.

[I Have A Dream]

174. By and large, I agree with you, spacelady. There's still a small part...

of me that's uncomfortable with the man being free from obligation. However, if I were a man to which this happened, I'd feel that the process was unfair. Additionally, I personally know at least one woman who deliberately tried to get pregnant without the man knowing it.

I guess that I feel as though the woman has the choice as to whether to keep the child, and the man has the choice as to whether he wants to be part of the relationship with the child. The difficult part for me to get my arms around though is that it is the child that suffers in this situation. Don't know what the answer is here. This is why I'd never want to be a judge!

[spacelady]

175. I truly appreciate your gentle response, because it gets to the heart of

this issue. This is the kind of discourse that will ultimately break through the HE vs. SHE antagonistic reaction. The child definately is the one who negotiates through these channels and is the one who has to live with the interpretations of the law.

[CTyankee]

86. But logically if a man does not want to be a parent

wouldn't he use a condom EVERY time he had sex with a woman, or have a vasectomy, or not have vaginal sex? Taking personal responsibility for one's actions, not being part of the problem, is the issue here. It seems to me that once a guy has had intercourse that COULD result in a pregnancy, he should bear some responsibility for the outcome. After all, even if a woman terminates her pregnancy, she is paying a price, both emotionally and physically, with a surgical or medical abortion, neither of which is a pleasant experience. I think it is sexist NOT to have an expectation that men take responsibility for having unprotected intercourse.

[election_2004]

104. You could say the same for the woman....

Shouldn't a woman ALSO be using birth control, or a condom, or a diaphram, if she's not ready to raise a child yet?

[CTyankee]

106. Yes, she should

But that was not the argument. What I was hearing was that a man could have unprotected intercourse and then not take any responsibility for a resulting child. The woman, of course, would have a resulting consequence, a child or an abortion, either one of which would be a painful experience. In Yupster's argument, the man could just walk away (or not, you guess which one).

To me, it would seem logical if the man did not want to be a father, he would see to it that he could'nt be a father: that is, use a condom, have a vasectomy, or have non=vaginal sex. OK? Does that not make sense? What business does a man have doing sex that is unprotected if he DOES NOT want to have children?

PLEASE, make sense.

[Yupster]

133. The unprotected sex argument just doesn't do much

to me because as I've said before, I have only one kid, and he was conceived while we were using a condom. Luckily we were married and stable so it was not a disaster, but saying wear a condom if you don't want a kid obviously is not persuasive to me.

Anyway more to the point, I am surprised to see the argument of if you don't want to be a parent, don't have sex argued here on DU. That sounds like a pro-lifer's argument.

But if you really believe the argument that if you have unprotected sex, you must live with the consequences, and you really believe that for men and for women, then I'll disagree with you but respect you for your stand of believing that men and women involved in a pregnancy should be forced to be parents.

However, if you believe that if a woman gets pregnant, she should not be forced into parenthood without her consent and she should have all her options on the table, but the man should be forced into pregnancy without any choice, then I'll reject that argument as sexist twaddle.

[CTyankee]

148. where did I say that if you don't want to be a parent don't have sex?

I said, use a condom, have a vasectomy or have non-vaginal sex, all options allowing for having sex, right? OK, now that distortion is out of the way.

I'm the last person at DU that you want to accuse of making a pro-life argument. In my long career in the nonprofit world, I worked for choice and other women's issues with the following organizations: the ACLU (national office and D.C. office during the passage of the Hyde Amendment and the ERA try), League of Women Voters (national office on a concurrence of local leagues across the country on the right to choose as a national policy), a local women's clinic in New Haven (fending off an attempted Operation Rescue back in 1989), and I recently retired from Planned Parenthood of CT after 6 years raising major gifts across the state).

Obviously you did try to prevent pregnancy and you were not irresponsible. But you cannot raise an equity issue here if other men didn't take the same responsibility. That is not the same thing as saying everybody who has unprotected sex must become parents. Capisce?

[Yupster]

160. Sorry - you didn't say

don't have sex. You said don't have vaginal sex.

I guess I'm not as hip as many others here. To this old married straight guy sex is vaginal sex. And as an aside my wife has informed me that if I don't spend less time on DU, I won't be having much of that either.

[CTyankee]

170. OK, let's say sex that doesn't get a woman pregnant

Use your imagination. I'm an old married straight person and I can think of a few real good ones.

[Yupster]

176. I wish you'd talk to my wife

Since we've married she's lost some of her "imagination."

[spacelady]

177. LOL, Except every once in a while, it's all worth it!

[election_2004]

144. Hmmm.....

To me, it would seem logical if the man did not want to be a father, he would see to it that he could'nt be a father: that is, use a condom, have a vasectomy, or have non=vaginal sex. OK? Does that not make sense? What business does a man have doing sex that is unprotected if he DOES NOT want to have children?

Yes, that would seem logical. And the same would go for a woman too, you'd think. Yet, no one seems to be criticizing women for engaging in premarital sex unprotected.

[CTyankee]

149. And does a woman get to "walk away"?

My point is that women cannot "walk away" if they become pregnant. I would say the same thing to women: do not have unprotected intercourse if you do not want to become pregnant. It is an equity issue to me. Women get faced with an unplanned pregnancy, abortion, adoption or parenthood. The argument I have a problem with is that this is raised as an equity issue. No one should be forced to become a parent. Sex education needs to stress personal responsibility, however, whether it is the man or the woman.

[election_2004]

167. I agree with you

Sounds like we're on the same page.

[Yupster]

132. I guess I just don't see parenthood

as a punishment for having sex.

Should people be punished (be forced to take responsibility) for having sex?

It seems like parenthood is something that should be chosen, not forced on someone as a punishment.

A person got pregnant because of a mistake. It happens. To me it happened because a condom fell off. Luckily we were married and it was not that big of a deal. We were talking about trying to have a kid in another year or so anyway. This just avoided the talk.

Anyway, a pregnancy occurs between two unmarrieds due to a mistake. Now what?

I reject the idea that goes "well missy, you've really done it now. You are now going to have to be a mom. Maybe you should have kept your knickers up and this wouldn't have happened."

To me that is 19th Century thinking. Parenthood should not be a punishment for a mistake. It should be a choice people make.

In the same way I reject the corresponding argument, "well sport. Should have remembered that condom. Now you're going to have to be a daddy for the next 21 years."

To me that is 19th Century thinking. No one should be forced into parenthood against their will.

Why is this even being argued on a progressive board. It seems as obvious as anything in the world. No one should be able to force parenthood onto anyone else. Period.

[Patchuli]

30. Sorry but screw that draft thing

for either sex!

As for sexual responsibility, men need to use condoms if they don't wish to father a child. They do have a choice. Not to mention the health aspect. I won't disagree with you that men get the shaft in family court but men need to be as responsible as the women they sleep with.

[Yupster]

31. We were using a condom

when our kid was conceived nine years ago. Oops.

We also had another scare with a condom a few years later, but luckily no pregnancy ensued.

Condoms don't work all the time. They break, they come off. It happens. I know that for very sure.

A man is not agreeing to be a dad when his condom comes off. That is not a reasonable standard to put on a man.

It is no more reasonable than to say to a woman that since her birth control failed, she must be agreeing to become a mother.

I agree with you that a man needs to be just as responsible as a woman. But the question is should a man be held more responsible than a woman?

Do any of us believe that when a woman has sex she is agreeing to become a mother? Of course not. So why do we believe that about men?

[Patchuli]

34. Obviously, accidents happen

but that is not the usual. I would like to think in both cases, the man and the woman would be responsible about the choice, but ultimately, it is the woman's choice whether to carry the child. My personal experience is that the men just walked on their responsibility.

I also think that if a woman chooses to bear the child and the father doesn't wish to be a father, he should sign off as a parent and the woman shouldn't force him to pay child support. I totally agree that the court's stacked against men. Ideally, a child has both parents though.

[Yupster]

35. A question Patchuli

You said that "the man and the woman would be responsible about the choice," but then said "ultimately, it is the woman's choice whether to carry the child."

Don't you see the poblem there?

How can a man be responsible for something that is entirely someone else's choice?

Is that not an unreasonable sandard you're putting on a man?

The part about the man who doesn't want to e a father not being forced to pay child support shows me that I think we pretty much agree.

I just wanted to point out the illogic of today's system. The woman has (and should have) complete decision making power, but then the man, who has no say in the decision is held 50 % responsible for the decision's results if a baby is born. That is sexist and illogical.

How can anyone be held responsible for someone else's decision?

[Patchuli]

39. Well ultimately

creating a child does takes two and both should be responsible for the prevention of pregnancy. Also ultimately, the decision to bear a child is the woman's. Being a mother, I know what that entailed. However, if the man is responsible and the condom still breaks, and he doesn't want to have a child but the woman does, she should have to sign away the right to ask for support. She should be responsible for the expense of rearing the child she wants to have.

I don't think if the man doesn't want to be a father and did try to prevent it that he should be held hostage by the woman's desire to have a child and have him pay the bills. On the other hand, if he did nothing to prevent pregnancy and the woman wants to have the child, he should be held responsible for his share. That doesn't entitle her to a free ride.

I am not a sexist. I married a man who was raped financially by not only child support laws but alimony laws by someone completely capable of working for her own support in the state of California.

My own personal experience with the father of my child was that he was not responsible and he skated on while I dealt with it all alone. I did not go after him. In retrospect? He'd have made a lousy dad.

[formernaderite]

71. sometimes the condoms are tampered with...

it does happen. I think that the man should have the right to request having the child put up for adoption, if the woman does not support aborting the child.

[Patchuli]

77. I'm an adoptee

and I'm here to tell you, adoption is not some fantastic solution that other folks (nonadopted) think. Only an open adoption is acceptable these days as opposed to the closed and repressive adoption practices in fashion when I was born. I still, at age 50, am not allowed to see or possess my original birth certificate and I found my birth family 13 years ago. There are no more secrets.

I think if the male and female tried to be responsible and the pregnancy was not preventable, then each should have a choice. If they both want abortion, so be it. If both want adoption, so be it. But if only one or the other wants to raise the child (and the woman is willing to continue the pregnancy), then the parent who chooses to parent should take all the responsibility.

[Witchy_Dem]

38. I see your point but I have to disagree.

I take exception that any casual encounter I may have experienced would give any man full equal rights to my body and any decision I'd have to make should the OOOOPS occur. Whether we were protected or not. Rape is in the same category as far as I am concerned WRT abortion. No rapist would have any rights to my keeping his spawn should that result in pregnancy. A casual encounter falls along that same line.

I would discuss all choices we have with my husband, he's earned the right. But when it comes to something much less permanent. Really, I don't believe any man should have any say but I would afford my husband the chance to state his position.

Sorry.

[Yupster]

81. Witchy Dem

I don't think you'd find 2 % of DU'ers who would think the man should have a right to tell you whether to abort or not.

The question is if he doesn't want the baby and you do, then you should make the decision to birth it if you want to.

I think almost everyone would agree up to that point.

The next question is should you be able to come back and garnish his wages for the next 18 years and call him a deadbeat dad when he never agreed to be a dad or wanted to be a dad.

You have the right to choose whether to be a mother or not for sure. But should you also have the right to choose whether your partner becomes a father or not too? That is the question at hand.

[Witchy_Dem]

88. My momma always said, "What do you call a guy who has unprotected sex?"

Daddy.

You play you pay. Period.

My point was that no man has the right to force me to have an abortion or to have a baby. If he plays the game he has to face the responsilbity.

Guess the question you gotta ask yourself is "do I feel lucky?" LOL

[spacelady]

118. Well, that is the double standard under discussion.

"Men have no right to tell me what to do with my body, BUT if you play, you pay." Is that about right?

[Yupster]

134. Yes that is the double standard plainly put

You pay you play period.

Have sex, get pregnant, be forced to be a parent.

For the man only -- the woman demands the right to choose whether she becomes a parent or not.

That's the double standard plain as day.

Are we committed to doing anything about it?

[Iris]

91. I wouldn't say your husband has "earned" the right.

That's dangerous territory - there are bills in floating around out there that would require a husband's consent for an abortion.

Rather, I would say that you know him and you know if you can believe him if he says he will be there for the long haul or support you in any way he can.

[Witchy_Dem]

97. He's earned the right to have his say. Absolutely so.

Ultimately, as I stated, the decision is mine.

[spacelady]

119. Being married puts a whole different spin on it legally. The discussion

I believe, is about casual and/or unmarried relations that result in an unplanned pregnancy.

[Skittles]

46. I am glad you are gay too

nt

[Skidmore]

17. Men have always had the right to choose--and many choose

to walk away and shirk parenthood for many reasons.

[spacelady]

24. Women have the right to choose as well, for many reasons.

[The Straight Story]

27. Only differece - if a man walks away off to jail he can go

for not paying support.

[Yupster]

32. I think men should be able to walk away from a pregnancy

with no stigma or questions asked.

Just like a woman has the right to choose whether she becomes a mother or not, I believe that same right to choose whether to become a father or not should be afforded the man too.

I do believe the man should have to inform the woman of his position once pregnancy is discovered so that she can make her decision fully informed of whather she will have the father helping her or not. Of course whether to birth the fetus or abort it should still be entirely the mother's decision though.

[okieinpain]

19. oh yeah, they realize it. it's just that they are like the soccer moms

they don't think it will ever happen.

[bluestateguy]

20. I used to know a guy who was pro-abortion for those reasons

Not pro-choice, but pro-abortion.

He was also very conservative on every other issue, but his attitude was that if he ever got a girl pregnant that he would force her to have an abortion. He would not be forced into fatherhood.

[Yupster]

26. I think my proposal above

would solve this guy's problem without him having to force anyone else to do anything.

[election_2004]

41. My idea of a fair compromise

The decision of whether to carry the child to term or have an abortion should ultimately be up to the woman who is pregnant.

However, if the woman decides to go through with the pregnancy, and the biological father objects to the pregnancy because he wants no part of the child's life, then the father should be able to sign away any future rights and responsibilities he would have in regard to raising the child.

One hypothetical: what happens if the woman who gets pregnant waits until AFTER she actually gives birth to her baby before informing the biological father that he was the one who got her pregnant?

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. This suggestion has been called Male abortion.

Proponents suggest that a man should have the same window of opportunity to terminate their impending parenthood.

In your scenario in which he is informed after the fact that he's a dad, the father gets an equivalent timeframe to decide if he wants to be a parent and assume all the responsibilities that go with it.

[election_2004]

61. Hmmm, that's an interesting safeguard....

Although I'd like to see what the language would look like in actual written legislation.

I assume the window of opportunity would begin once the biological father was informed of the after-the-fact birth?

And what happens if the biological mother decides to give birth but she thinks it would be best to give the baby up for adoption, yet the biological father wants to raise his biological child as his own?

[formernaderite]

73. the father would get the child...

and if the man has no interest in fatherhood or support, he should have the right to state he would put his "interest" in the child up for adoption. Then the mother also has the choice of keeping the child and bearing the cost or putting it up for adoption.

[Yupster]

50. I would agree with your compromise election

And if the woman hid the fact from the father until after birth, then the father would still have some reasonable amount of time after learning of his fatherhood to either accept the responsibility of the child or decline it formally.

[win_in_06]

42. You have to be careful with this line of thinking.

Can you imagine some lawyer defending a deadbeat dad?

"My client wanted to abort this child but the woman insisted on childbirth, therefore my client should not be held responsible for child support."

[election_2004]

44. That's why...

The biological father should be given the opportunity to sign away his rights to fatherhood, if he doesn't want to bear any financial responsibility for the child.

[Yupster]

49. Absolutely win

As long as the man signed away his rights properly and in the timely manner, he should have no responsibilities to a child he didn't want.

Then we can get rid of the insulting terms like "deadbeat dads."

It's the woman's body, and she has a right to decide whether she gives birth or not. However, her decision should be hers. She has no right to make decisions for the man too. If she wants to be a parent, great. But the man should be able to make his own decision whether he becomes a parent too, and he shouldn't get insulted and belittled for the choice he makes, regardless of which way he chooses. It's is life and his choice.

[davepc]

51. "added responsibilities in a man's sex life"

god forbid men take responsibility for where they deposit their sperm.

"Hey baby, not my responsibility! have an abortion!"

*gag*

[Yupster]

52. A man should never be able to say

"Hey baby, not my responsibility! Have an abortionm!"

Whether to birth or terminate should be entirely the woman's choice.

The most the man should be able to say is

"Hey baby, it's your body and your choice. Make whatever decision you think is right for yourself. And I'll make the decison that's right for me. after all, we're two thinking adults who can choose for themselves whether we want to be parents or not."

[win_in_06]

66. so you have no problem with a father who refuses child support

on the grounds that he did not want the baby?

[formernaderite]

74. the woman has the choice of putting the child up for adoption

she doesn't need to care for the child herself either. Perhaps its in the best interest of the child to be put in a loving home.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

94. Yes, because putting a child up for adoption is such an easy decision

And so is abortion!

:eyes:

Where did you pick that up? Whatever the woman's decision, it is going to have serious ramifications.

[formernaderite]

151. never stated it would be easy....

only that it is an option, particularly if the bio father has no interst in rearing or funding the child, and the mother does not want an abortion. Her choices have ramifications too...

[Yupster]

82. Of course not

Why should a man pay for a child he did not want?

I think the man should have to make his desire to parent or not to parent known to the mother within a reasonable time so the mother would not be surprised after birth that the man didn't want to be a daddy.

But no I have no problem with a man refusing to pay child support for a child he didn't want.

No woman should force fatherhood onto a man anymore than no man should be able to force motherhood onto a woman.

Why would you disagree with that?

[CTyankee]

87. tell me why did he have unprotected sex in the first place?

You haven't made that point clear in all of your arguments. We're assuming that men can make rational decisions. We're assuming that men are not having unprotected sex because a gun is being held to his head.

Please answer my question.

[election_2004]

105. Why did the woman have unprotected sex?

If it wasn't a rape, BOTH are at fault for the pregnancy. But neither should have to be held responsible for it for 18 more years of their lives.

[CTyankee]

107. The woman's attitude in this argument is immaterial

Please understand. What I am saying is that if the man DOES NOT WANT TO BE A PARENT, isn't it his responsibility, BEFORE he has sex, to make arrangements not to get his sex partner pregnant. I.E., condom, vasectomy, non-vaginal sex. Yes? No? Why not? Is anyone holding a gun to his head?

What part of this do you not understand?

[spacelady]

125. Both have responsibility for prevention, both have choice in parenthood.

[election_2004]

145. Yes

Yes, it is his responsibility to use protection, the same way it's equally the woman's responsibility to use protection and contraceptives.

[Mad_Dem_X]

152. That's it exactly!

If the person - the man or the woman - does not want to be a parent, he/she should take the responsibility for birth control. Not ready to be a dad? USE PROTECTION!

[Mad_Dem_X]

153. dupe post - sorry

[win_in_06]

127. Why shouldn't they?

After all, their behavior created the life. They should both be held responsible.

[Yupster]

135. Men shouldn't have unprotected sex

Obviously.

Neither should women.

Obviously.

Both men and women do ots of things tey shouldn't do

However, I don't think the punishment for having unprotected sex should be forced parenthood.

Not only does that seem pretty harsh, but it seems like with all the screwed up kids we have, we'd be better off if people chose to be parents, not were assigned it as their punishment.

And then there is the sexist part. If forced parenthood is the punishment for having unprotected sex, well that seems stupid as a way to run a society to me, but at least make it be the punishment for men and women, not just men.

Do we have to take a culturally harmful practice and make it a sexist culturally harmful practice too?

[CTyankee]

150. "forced parenthood" is a straw man argument here

I haven't read one post that says anyone should be forced by the government to be a parent.

If you want to focus your argument on debating a culturally harmful practice, I would agree that mandatory parenthood is at the top of the list. My problem is that you presented it as a sex equity issue and you just can't argue that when the consequences of a woman's sex life is different than that of a man's.

Look at it this way: women's risk for unprotected sex: abortion, childbirth. Man's risk for unprotected sex: nothing (in your equity scheme).

[McCamy Taylor]

96. Woman saved semen from oral sex, artificially impregnated self

got pregnant then sued the biologic dad for child support. I only mention this cause you can never, ever be too careful. I forget how the court ruled. The woman is obviously a real sicko and I would hate to have her as my mom.

[wiley]

53. You obviously haven't heard that women in Pakistan

are arrangiing to be raped so they can get married into or fleece a wealthy family. Let's get real,people. In most parts of the world women don't even have the choice or the economic means whether they have sex with men. In many societies if you don't have a husband or male keeper, you have NO access to food, shelter or security.

If a woman does not bring enough of a financial compensation to a groom's family, they are often brutally scarred with acid or burning oil and left to suffer in shame in some leper colony type hovel. Most try to kill themselves. A woman asking her male partner to use a condom can get her killed or seriously abused in many places, even in the US. Men are the engine for the spread of AIDS and many STDs.

A man's right to choose? When marriage contracts specify that men are required by law that is enforced to shoulder at least half of the responsibillities of caring for and raising a child, then you can talk about rights. Men don't have the right to use women as vessels for reproduction.

[election_2004]

62. A flaw in your logic....

When marriage contracts specify that men are required by law that is enforced to shoulder at least half of the responsibillities of caring for and raising a child, then you can talk about rights. Men don't have the right to use women as vessels for reproduction.

We're talking here about mainly UNMARRIED couples who are not legally joined in any formal union.

When a child is born outside of a legal marriage, the rules change.

[dean_dem]

76. Some might say..

Men don't have the right to use women as vessels for reproduction.

...that likewise, women don't have the right to use a man as an 18 year trust fund.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

95. Yeah, because she'll be living the high life with that 500 bucks a month.

Ugh.

What you are forgetting is that putting a child up for adoption, having a baby, or having an abortion are all major major decisions that will have lasting effects. On the other hand, what most men on this board are complaining about is money.

[election_2004]

103. What makes you think....

That the decision won't be life-changing for the male involved, as well?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

114. Because HIS body isn't under fire-he doesn't face an invasive procedures

The woman has biological trauma + emotional trauma. The father just faces emotional trauma.

[spacelady]

131. This reinforces my position that women need to be more vigilant

about birth control to prevent this multiple traumatization. Or maybe men are the ones who have to be sure about prevention PLUS pay the 18 year price in the event that an unplanned pregnancy occurs? Men have a stake in the choice about parenthood.

[Yupster]

137. You make a strong argument to the young women reading this board

on why they should take birth controll as a serious matter.

An unexpected pregnancy means a woman will have to make a very difficult decision. Luckily she will be the one who will make it. Should she be a mom? Should she abort? Should she adopt. All very difficult choices she will have to make.

All that being true though, I don't see why it entitles her to make decisions for the man involved too. It seems she has enough on her plate. The man should be able to make his decision for himself too. Should he be a parent or not? What more personal decision could there be?

And what is more oppressive than having another person legally order you to be a parent against your will. How can this be defended here?

[election_2004]

146. So then.....

...at what point, after the child is conceived, should the biological father be able to make any decisions about the resulting situation?

[dean_dem]

154. That's taking a pretty simplistic view of the situation.

Have you ever been in that situation before? Just asking.

[dR. O]

54. well

the sad reality is that men have no choice either way

[spacelady]

126. Short and to the point. Well Done!

[ladylibertee]

56. I cannot wait for the News Headline : Extra Extra Supreme Court

Chief of Justice John Roberts mistress is pregnant. She can't get an abortion, because he overruled roe v wade. LOL. That would be so funny.

[Yupster]

59. Does he have a mistress?

I read on here yesterday that it was rumored he was gay.

[ladylibertee]

57. O.K.

[Behind the Aegis]

63. True

However, the one with the body at stake has the "trump card."

If people want to avoid unwanted pregnancy, they should abstain from heterosexual sex (100% accurate) or try homosexuality (also, 100% accurate).

Kidding aside, it should always be up to the woman, it is HER body! It may not be "fair" to men, but life is not always fair, and we all know that. There is another saying, "if you aren't prepared to do the time, don't do the crime." I don't think consensual sex is a crime, but condoms don't always work, BC pills don't always work; there is ALWAYS a possibility that conception may happen with heterosexual sex (except in cases of sterility).

Men should have input, but it should NEVER trump the right of a woman to choose over what she does or doesn't do with her body!

[Yupster]

83. Aegis

I don't think anyone is saying that anyone should tell the woman what to do with her body. I bet 98 % of DU'ers would agree that the woman should have the complete say over whether she births the baby or aborts. That is a given.

The question is that once the woman decides she does want to be a mommy and birth the baby, then should she have the right to come back to the man and say

"I've made my decision. I want to be a mommy. So that means I've decided you have to be a daddy too."

Or should the man be able to say

"I respect the choice you've made to be a mommy. I bet you'll be a good one. My own choice is that I do not want to be a daddy just yet so I sign away my legal rights and responsibilities to this fetus/baby."

[SemiCharmedQuark]

93. No. Because whatever the woman's choice, she faces a serious procedure

An abortion or birth. Both major major decisions. Why should she have to bear the full load of a mistake that both people made?

[election_2004]

102. Why should the man be completely powerless....???

...as far as having a say in his role once the child is born?

A man shouldn't be able to force a woman to complete or terminate her pregnancy. That's the woman's decision alone to make. But he also should not be forced to care for a child that he wants no part of.

[CTyankee]

110. Then why did he have no part of

the sex act that created the child? Wouldn't it be simple to just eliminate that? You know, like using a condom, having a vasectomy, not having intercourse (maybe trying some alternate sex practices).
Gee, what a concept!

Did the guy just have no options? What a damn shame!

[election_2004]

147. No, both were responsible

But don't you see the double standard here?

Women should be able to make the decision regarding having an abortion, giving her child up for adoption, or motherhood.

But if the woman chooses motherhood as her decision, the man should not be forced by the courts to accept the role of fatherhood against his will.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

115. So they both make a mistake and the woman is the only one that bears

responsibility. SHE has to have a procedure. And the man can just...walk away. Hell, why bother with condoms? He can just say "oops" and decide no. Add that to the list of 9 million other injustices in a male dominated society.

[spacelady]

120. That's why women have to watch out for themselves and take

precautions or just keep their panties on and their knees together!
If you want to go ahead and rail about a patriarchal society, don't depend on men to support you or the kids you CHOOSE to have!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

123. "or just keep their panties on and their knees together"

What is this, 1950? What about the MEN?

[spacelady]

128. This is in reference to the "he should have kept it in his pants"

argument which has been done ad nauseum.

[Yupster]

138. Biology puts the fetus inside the woman

so even though it was both partner's mistake, the woman is the one "carrying the ball."

That's why it is so important for a woman to have every option available to her, legally and without censure - birth, abortion and adoption, and it is important that nothing should stand in the way of that woman to make her informed and thoughtful decision by herself without pressure.

That means that sometimes a man will have a pregnancy terminated even though he wanted that baby so very badly. Though I feel for that potential father, that's just a problem of biology that can't be helped. In the end someone must make the decision and it must be the woman.

No matter how much the father wants the baby, he should not be able to force the woman to become a mother. That's intolerable.

However, once the woman has made her choice, her power should go no further. She should not have the power to make the man's choice for him too. Just like she chose whether or not to be a mother, the man must be protected to make his own choice of whether or not to be a father.

Edited because the spelling errors made me say ouch.

[BlueIris]

64. Yuck. This discussion makes my skin crawl.

Ew.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

92. Biological differences! Abortion is a major procedure for a woman.

Physically and Psychologically. It is unfair to say that a man has the "right" to just walk away and it would be equal because it is the woman who has to make the greatest sacrifice. SHE has to go through 9 months of hell and labor which is potential death. OR she has to go through an abortion procedure which also could have complications. You don't see a difference between that and just walking away?

[Witchy_Dem]

98. Not just 9 months of pregnancy and delivery but

18 years of raising said child by herself. Financially, emotionally, physically.

[election_2004]

100. Well, if she's going to keep the child....

She has no place to complain about raising the child as a single mother...UNLESS the father voluntarily expresses the desire to be a part of the child's life.

"You want to see your son/daughter...then you help pay for him/her."

It's that simple.

[spacelady]

122. I would not think strong progressive females would have a problem

preventing these scenarios or taking responsibility for their choices.
Don't be a victim.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

124. But progressive men don't have to take responsibility...

Hmmm...

[spacelady]

129. You see absolutely no double standard here with regard to

choices made available to either gender in the event of an unplanned pregnancy?

Edited to add: To their credit many progressive men do step up and take responsibility, ya know? That should be their choice as well.

[election_2004]

101. Still not justified....

A woman should be able to make the decision (motherhood vs. abortion vs. adoption) for herself.

A man, given that he is physiologically incapable of having an abortion, should be able to make the same decision (fatherhood vs. adoption) for himself.

[CTyankee]

111. And that's it?Or just walk away?

You left that option open, I think. If so, why is that? Why does he get off scot free, if that is what he "decides"?

[spacelady]

130. He sure as hell does not get off scot free in this day and age.

Make him Pay or Deadbeat Dad! Some Choice.

[FreedomAngel82]

112. Not if they aren't there and run away

[bloom]

136. Seems the thread has gotten off-track...

This thread makes the argument of why sex within marriage or sex where either the man or woman is sterile is a good idea - while sex outside of marriage between a fertile man and woman is asking for trouble.

Spacelady is totally back to the notion where women have to be responsible (#120) and men can do whatever they want.

It's no wonder men would like the idea of choice for themselves. Total sexual freedom for themselves with no consequences. Yippee. Men could get a different woman pregnant every day of the week and just say - nope - not my deal - don't want to be a father - go do whatever you want. How nice for them, eh?

No thoughts of what the woman has to go through.

I don't think that option would improve society.

At least now - both parties have some possible consequences.

[spacelady]

139. Well, since you called me out, I personally take responsibility for my own

body and prevention of unplanned pregnancy, so that I would not have to rely on an unwilling sexual partner to be forced into fatherhood. However, if my choice to have sex resulted in an unplanned pregnancy, I would respect myself and my body enough to take responsibility for MY CHOICE and be prepared to face motherhood without coercing the man to be a dad if he CHOSE not to have a role in the child's life, or I could choose abortion or adoption in which case the point would be moot unless the bio father wanted to raise the child by himself.
None of this is easy, but telling the men "to keep it in your pants"
is not addressing the issue at hand.

Did you even read my posts, or are you just taking one sentence out of context to attack?

[bloom]

140. I just think

that both women and men should be responsible and the notion you've been advocating - (and yes - I read through the thread) is that men should be let off the hook entirely while women shoulder the entire responsibility.

I think the results would be negative for everybody.

[spacelady]

141. Do you believe in equal rights? The right to choose?

Or only at certain times, like maybe when things get difficult and that's when men come in handy for support so the women get to call the shots? Personally, I'd rather work it out for myself, because I certainly don't want men calling the shots for my reproductive freedom!

[bloom]

165. Believing in the right to choose

does not mean believing that everyone will feel comfortable choosing abortion or adoption.

It means recognizing that different women will make different choices.

It also means that women have the right to make that choice - that is part of being woman. The man's part is he has to live with whatever the woman decides. That is how it is. And it how I think it should remain.

Men who think abortions are a reasonable solution should have sex with women who would more than likely choose abortion if the condom broke or whatever. Men who don't like the idea of having their offspring aborted should find women who believe as they do.

That is not to say that women don't have the final decision at the end of the day or that they might not change their mind. It is the woman's body, after all.

[spacelady]

142. For the record, gulliver, I realize this discussion has strayed somewhat

from your original post, but it has had some interesting moments!

[wiley]

143. So, men have no choice but to either use condoms

or lose their "right" to dictate what happens when he impregnates a female partner - assuming the partner has consented. What if the man has HIV or hepatitis or some other STD? Does he have the right to make the pregant female take medications - often very toxic to the female and the fetus - to reduce but not eliminate the chance that the baby will have HIV or some deformity caused by an STD? If people are getting pregnant then someone is having unsafe sex. Does HIV still equal only sex between men? The astronomical increase in the number of AIDS cases amongst monogamous women in the US and around the world doesn't exactly indicate that men are taking their responsibility very seriously.

[Barbra Whiner]

158. You Men DO have another choice

Enough of this nonsense! Don't talk to me about a "man's right to choice."

"We've been tricked. We've been unfairly treated in Family Court. We care about children, too. Yadda, yadda, yadda" Excuses.

Wake up you single-minded walking sperm banks...before we decide to make male neutering manditory for all you cavemen.

[election_2004]

166. Wow...

Someone's pretty hateful.

[antigone382]

168. I have a feeling "someone" is being a bit disingenuous.

I love the search function...;)

[election_2004]

179. What do you mean by that?

If you have something to say, just come right out and say it.

[gollygee]

159. A woman has a right to bodily autonomy

and as long as the fetus is in *her* womb, it's her choice what to do regarding the pregnancy. It isn't an issue of a choice to have a baby or not - it's an issue that she has the choice as whether her body should be used to continue a pregnancy or not and whether she should have to take on the physical risk of pregnancy and childbirth if she doesn't want to.

If a baby is born, then both parents have an obligation to care for the baby.

[Yupster]

161. Wow golly - you confused me with this one

So once the baby is born both parents have an obligation to care for him/her?

So you're telling women that if they have a baby they must mother it for 18 years? They can't sign away those rights?

Adoption needs to be ended?

Or am I misunderstanding?

Once a woman has the baby she is not obligated to mother it? She can put it up for adoption?

It's only the father who is obligated as he can't sign away his rights unless the mother gives him permission to.

One of Harry Truman's funniest lines was "If you can't convince em, confuse em," and I admit you've got me confused.

[gollygee]

164. If the baby is put up for adoption, then the birth parents' obligation is

ended.

The mother can't sign away her rights without the father's permission either.

[UrbScotty]

163. I'd nominate this thread, but it's too late to.

Oh well. Maybe a :kick: will do.

[Yupster]

169. It has been an interesting discussion ih8

I am truly surprised though at how many people on a progressive board actually agree that a woman should have the right to force parenthood onto a man who doesn't want it. I would have thought most here would agree that each individual should be able to choose for himself/herself when parenthood is right for them.

Oh well, it just means we're in a bit more of a need for what individual personal responsibility and individual freedom mean.

Luckily we have boards like this where maybe a bit of educating can occur for all of us.

[spacelady]

171. I am impressed with your consistency in this discussion.

You have drawn from life experiences & your reasoning is sound. Just because the law is the way it "is" right now does not negate valid criticism--that is how change occurs.

[election_2004]

180. It's not surprising to me, Yupster

There are bigots on the Left the same way there are on the Right.

"Beauty fades, but dumb is forever."
- Judge Judy

[chaska]

172. Read "The Myth of Male Power" by Warren Farrell.

I have read none but the original post, but I can tell from the post count that there is arguing going on. I have no futher comment.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[musical_soul]

178. The fetus is in the woman's body.

It's not his choice. Never was. He can persuade her to have an abortion, but the choice is still hers.