OK guys - need your help with a PITA freeper brother-in-law

[woodsprite]

Of course, were talking about Hurricane Katrina family night dinner the other night and his wife starts spouting off about Louisiana's administration is why these people were left. They were keeping FEMA and the Red Cross out of LA, etc..... You get the picture. Goes off about how her minister took time off to go "Witness" to these people down there (during the evacuation) and how nobody wanted to listen to him.

I went off on her skinny butt about how FEMA and the * administration did nothing to help get stuff down there, people evac'd, etc. About how Brownie used to be Lord of the Horses and had no emergency management background, etc.

NOW, I have a mail message with the heading "Louisiana Officials Indicted Before Katrina Hits" and the first paragraph is

"Bush bashing continues, especially in the foreign press. Louisiana is the most corrupt state in the in the US, we now find that the state emergency preparedness committee has been investigated for criminal activity since before the hurricane and the federal government is trying to locate where all the advance money went. Lets face it, do you want your tax money going to these unaccountable crooks????

Then it goes on with the article not mentioning who was indicted - just says Louisiana Officials back to 1998. Blanco was elected Governor in 2004 and Nagin in 2002. Was Morial (mayor before Nagin) a Repub? I know Foster was.

WHAT TO DO? Do we have any backup refuting or unspinning this? Hubby and I do family dinner EVERY Monday night with these people. I have been collecting a bunch of links re: * and his cronies, but I hadn't planned for this little baby to pop up.

[iamjoy]

1. Ask The Freeper

OK - who was indicted?

Refer to Dept. Homeland Security site where it states they handle large scale emergencies & that it was DHS keeping Red Cross out.

[Initech]

2. Unaccountable crooks? That should be the end of the argument!

And they're going off about Louisiana? Tell them to wake up and realize that it's not entirely Louisiana's fault.

But if they want to talk about unaccountable crooks, look no further than the George W. administration!

[The Doctor.]

3. First, I do believe Nagin is a Republican.

Second, it would certainly be a good idea to find out which officials were indicted. Considering that the article is pointedly vague on that count, I might surmise that they were also Republicans.

That would be a good place to turn this around on them.

Also;

It might be good to cite who was responsible for what and include documentation.

One thing I like to do with the 'sound bite' crowd is say, "Look, I know this stuff seems complicated, but you don't get at the truth by simply parroting what you hear. If you want to actually know what's what, then you will take the time to research the claims. Otherwise it's best to avoid having strong opinions with no substance."

-This really gets to them, especially since I take the time to investigate and stay WAY ahead of them.

[jackster]

5. Nagin was a repub

before he switched to the dems in order to win the mayoral election

I think wikipedia has the details

[sui generis]

13. I personally don't like my "read" on the guy

I know he's in a hard spot and under tremendous pressure but he's always struck me as not completely "honest" in a way that I can't put my finger on.

Nonetheless I don't envy his job right now and I'm sure there are certainly worse ways this could be handled.

[CTyankee]

17. I've done this with great results!

I told my freeper sister in law and her husband that they couldn't talk to me without doing their homework first, that they should "think for themselves" (that always gets people), and that if they are not willing to do the research then they are not serious about this conversation. You might also want to say to them "Don't let the administration 'dumb you down.'"

I do my research, too, and I let them know that. I make it my business to know these things.

I also like to quote Marcus Aurelius "If it is not true, do not say it." Never hurts.

[The Doctor.]

18. Good to hear.

The facts are almost entirely on your side.

This administration is held up by easily dispelled lies, and when you cast the light on them, their supporters are left flailing.

It's a beautiful thing to see.

[Vincardog]

4. Ask them where the 9 BILLION went down the rabbit hole in Iraq?

Why is it so bad to be corrupt in LA but ok fine in DC? Bring up the executive order commander Bunny pants signed outlawing THE INVESTIGATION of wrongdoing in Iraq. Ask why they investigate the Oil For Food program under the UN but not the Billions Halliburton stole while it was under US control?

Then say 'Hypocrite is so UGLY"

[woodsprite]

6. This is what I wrote back. Now I'm collecting links...

"You didn't say where this came from or give a link. The Repubs were in charge of Louisiana when this little dirty ditty went down. The looting of the funds goes back to 1998. They're just getting around to investigating and indicting. Governor Blanco was just elected in 2004. Governor Mike Foster was elected in 1996 and 2000. Mayor Nagin (previously Rep. but switched to Dem as of 2001) was elected in 2002, following after Mayor Morial (Dem) who had brought about a huge POSITIVE change in New Orleans in his tenure. I'd say it was the people on watch BEFORE this current administration, but it sounds nice to spin it this way and it's advantageous for various people.

If they're looking for 30 million or so that's good and I hope they find who took it and slap them in jail. But they also need to be looking for where the 9 Billion went down the rabbit hole in Iraq and do the same thing to the people accountable for that.

I'll see if I can find some links."


*************

Inside, my BLOOD is BOILING! :mad:

[ClassWarrior]

9. Don't do her work for HER!! Make her provide links to YOU.

Tell her to prove it.

NGU.

[woodsprite]

11. I was going to try to force-feed her some Kool-aid antidote.

She goes way back with a history of pi$$ing me off. I'm 42 now -- let's see -- back to when I was 13. And I've never really "let her have it". Think it's about time.

[ClassWarrior]

12. Facts and links aren't going to convince her. Reframing may...

See my two posts below.

NGU.

[ClassWarrior]

7. Remind her that it was Bush** and not Ray Nagin who promised last year...

...to keep us safe. I mean, if state and local officials screwed up, and it looks like they did, then Bush** had an even BIGGER responsibility to be Johnny-on-the-spot - campaign promise or NOT. Instead he was picking the guitar and eating cake.

Ask her if she's okay with Bush** outsourcing his campaign promises to local officials.

NGU.

[sui generis]

8. well disarm them

you can say "of course the state and local officials bear some responsibility, but to say that they bear all of it is as crazy as saying they bear none of it. And either way it does NOTHING for the people and families affected by this disaster."

You can also go on to say that blaming everything on the local officials is as absurd as blaming the collapse of the towers on 9-11 on the mayor of New York.

If we really care about solutions more than politics then we have to figure out what went wrong. Some politics went into it; idiots were appointed by a fellow idiot for starters - a robust preparedness program would have uncovered state level fraud FIRST as OMB and other budgeting organizations ran their audits when physical deficiencies in the levee system were not addressed. There were a lot of people in the bush administration collecting a paycheck on your dollar and doing not a damn thing to earn it, playing golf, going to fundraisers, staying home and reading about the hurricane IN THE NEWSPAPER!!!

The federal government IS responsible for protecting national commerce and interstate commerce. The Mississippi river flows a long way through many communities, and the gulf borders multiple millions of lives in hundreds of cities and towns.

You can't have it all one way - the federal government OR state government exclusively responsible for every component in a known emergency. It takes a lot of Americans working together, a lot of planning, experience and foresight to minimize the impact of any kind of disaster, especially one that could have been addressed in the simplest weekly review of our port and border weaknesses. What in THE HELL is the department of homeland security for if it can't address the simplest issues that affect our security BEFORE they happen?

Don't worry about spinning. The only thing that matters is team building. I'd go so far as to say that Republicans are the ones using the word "blame" and republicans are the ones who are pointing everywhere but at themselves, and being dishonest about it won't fix the problem. The responsibility lies across tiers of government, each with their own role in the failures. Now what are we going to do to keep it from happening again? I say remove the administrationS that let it happen and put some real adults in charge instead of these play-pretend-dress-up-adults that call themselves republicans.

And, gramma, tell me again how that Brown guy got hired and what his credentials were and why that was a good idea?

[ClassWarrior]

10. Ask her why you should be concerned about state & local officials...

...in frickin' Louisiana. After all, you didn't vote for them, and they aren't accountable to you. Tell her what concerns you is whether Bush** - who IS accountable to you - is going to ignore YOUR state & local officials if there's a disaster or terrorist attack in YOUR state.

NGU.

[woodsprite]

14. Especially since our Gov. is Dem, we could very well be in the

same position. Biden and Carper, despite their wavering middle-of-the-road voting patterns, haven't endeared themselves to him either. I'd say we'd be pretty much in the same boat.

[Catrina]

16. Excellent response

Tell her that this was a national emergency, not just a state issue. Since such a disaster, should it happen, was on the list of the three worst national security threats to the US, along with a possible terror attack, Bush's Homeland Security bureaucracy was in charge of it!! Did she know that? HMS was responsible!! Even if and even more so, should state officials not be able to cope with. So, it doesn't matter what the state officials did or did not do, HLS, the $41 billion a year Bush bureaocracy, WAS IN CHARGE. It's part of their mandate.

This was a test of his policies to 'Keep America Safe'. And he failed miserably. Once the storm passed, the problem became a matter for Homeland Security, but it took them five days before they got there, leaving US citizens to die, the sick in hospitals, the elderly, the children, animals, the disabled (and btw, 80% of the population DID evacuate, thanks to local officials, had they waited for Bush, the deathtoll would have been even higher.


Now we've learned that the mayor was promised buses to take those who were at the Superdome out of the city but the buses NEVER CAME!

Additionally, the mayor wanted to use the school buses, but was told by Fema, I believe, not to use them because 'they were not air-conditioned' and that HLS would provide both buses and drivers. It never happened, and people died.

Gov. Blanco took all the required steps, including forcing Bush to declare a National Emergency, which should have put in motion all that was necessary to save lives. All that was needed, was as the USSN Ship Lt. said was available, waiting behind the hurricane, waiting for the 'the green light from the executive branch' but it never came ~

And ask her why, since she seems to so unaware of how this works, and thinks the state is responsible, why is she not placing blame on Mississippi officials? Does she know that thousands, tens of thousands of people were not evacuated from that state either? That no one has even begun to get into some of the devasted areas there, so there's no way of knowing how many have died?

Is it Haley Barbour's fault that Mississipians lost so much, didn't evacuate etc.? Or could it be that he and Gov. Blanco did all that was required of them, but then were deserted by the Bush administration?

Tell her to wake up, most of the rest of the country has. There's more, way more, but that should keep her busy googling (which I doubt she'll do) for a while.

Bush, passing the buck. I thought he took responsibility for this, btw since he could do nothing else. Remind her of that, and why did he fire Brownie? If only one had time, the floor could be wiped with freepers like her ~ and with facts ~ but they are in the minority now, and diminishing by the day. She'll be a lonely freeper soon as the horrors of this administration unfold and only collaborators will be left to defend them.

Oh, remind her, speaking of corruption, that a Republican lobbyist is under indictment who is talking to the feds about the likes of Tom Delay and Norquist et al, and this week, the first of what we hope is many, Bush administrators, was arrested for lying to federal agents. He was in charge of distributing contracts to rebuild the Katrina disaster area!!

[ovidsen]

15. Easy. Keep telling then FIVE DAYS.

Five days elapsed between the time Katrina hit New Orleans (early Monday, 8/29), and the time substantial federal help arrived (Saturday, 9/3). Monday afternoon, nola.com (Times-Picayune) was reporting the first levee breach. Tuesday night (while Chimp overnighted in San Diego after sharing cake and a guitar in Arizona) all the major TV nets were warning catastrophe. No federal help.

Wednesday (8/31), Air Force One flew over NO. Chimp looked concerned. Flooding in New Orleans was lead story everywhere. Still no major federal help.

Thursday (9/1) Networks are reporting chaos at NO Convention Center. Even Faux News pretty boy Shep Smith is outraged at the trash and body littered encampment along the elevated I-10 near the Superdome. Horse attorney and FEMA head Michael Brown tells interviewers he had no idea situaton was so bad at Convention Center. No major federal help yet.

Friday (9/2) A chorus of local and state officials again plead for federal help. Nope.

Saturday (9/3) Supply trucks and choppers in impressive numbers finally arrive.

BOTTOM LINE: The competence or lack of it among New Orleans or Louisiana state officials here is irrelevant. It was clear by Wednesday night to everyone except a President who doesn't watch TV or read newspapers, and whose aides are too frightened of him to tell the truth, that this was the worst US natural disaster in modern times. Because he was ignorant and aloof, he did nothing FOR FIVE DAYS, and people died.

For a more detailed timeline of the fatal bungling of New Orleans relief efforts by FEMA and the White House, check out this BBC web page:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4211404.stm

And that, please tell you relatives, is the real crime.