Man, Politician, President, Statesman

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

Man= private life and skills
Politician = political know-how
President = how they actually governeed
Statesman = how they impact our place in the world


Jimmy Carter was a Great Man, a Fair Politician, a Poor President and has rebounded to become a Great Statesman

Ronald Reagan was a Poor Man, A Great Politician, a Poor President and a Good Statesman

George Bush I was an Fair Man, a Poor Politician, a Poor President and a Fair Statesman

Bill Clinton was a Fair Man, a Great Politician, a Great President and a Good Statesman (so far)

George W Bush is a Poor Man, a Good Politician, a Poor President and a Poor Statesman


In my opinion, Al Gore is a Great Man, a Fair Politician (until now - hoping he's learned and improved) would be a potentially Great President and a Great Statesman.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

1. Nobody wants to play?

I'll try again:

John Kerry - Good Man, Good Politician, Hopefully Good-Great President, potential Great Statesman

John Edwards-Great-Good Man, Fair Politician, ? President,? Statesman

Hillary- ???

Clark -???

[FrenchieCat]

2. OK, I'll bite!

Clark - a Great Man and Leader of character and honesty, the true attributes needed to make a great President. Great politicians are made not born, and are calculative....so I don't even want him to be that.

What are the traits of a great man and a great leader? To stand when all others are sitting-

Wes Clark rang the alarm bells on Rwandan genocide. While the politicians were busy with politics, Wes Clark called for the US to intervene in Rwanda to save some of the 800,000 Rwandans that were macheted to death. Where were the politicians then? Busy doing more important things, not wanting to mess up their political capital.

Wes Clark, as NATO Supreme Allied Commander fought the Pentagon to get Boots on the Ground in Kosovo? Why? Because he understood that bombing from high altitudes would kill more civilians. But the pentagon didn't want to take the chance of American Casualties. What happened? He made so much noise about it, he was "early" Retired after 34 years of service.

Wes Clark has discussed PNAC publicly, when no other "politicians" wanted to acknowledge the existence of this group and the philosophy that it follows. He talked about how he received calls that he should implicate Iraq in 9/11. He didn't, told the world, and got ridiculed for it.

Wes Clark has met with Cindy Sheehan. Pictures and tape are out there.
He defended Michael Moore's right to speak while on National TV when others were treating MM as though he was a pahria.
He stood behind Howard Dean, when "Politicians" were stating that Dean, as DNC Chair, didn't represent the party.
He stood by Durbin when he was being attacked for a out of context comment. No one else would.
he called himself a liberal, when the "politicians" were running from the word...

Great Stateman? I think so. He tells it like it is in an easy to understand manner although all the while he is dignified, rational and nuanced when appropriate.

[AlGore-08.com]

3. What's the reason you've got Kerry as a better pol than Gore?

Gore won the popular vote by over 1/2 million (and the electoral vote, but... you know).

Kerry lost the popular vote by over 3 million.

Gore got a higher percentage of the vote in almost every demographic category.

Gore has been out of office - - and for most people, the public eye - - for five years, and he's currently beating Kerry in the few 2008 polls that have Kerry and Gore.

How does that make Kerry a better pol?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlGore-08.com]

6. I'm not being an attack dog, I'm asking why that statement was made

And giving examples of why I didn't understand it.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

7. It's totally subjective on my part

I think part of the Politician equasion is "connecting" , and I guess I see Kerry as connecting a little better than the old Al Gore (although not the new one once he is unleashed). Kerry is also solidly connected in his home state, whereas Gore did not carry Tennessee.

I do believe that five years out of political office has probably been the best thing that could have ever happened to Al Gore. Look at all that he has done and accomplished in that interim. Also, I think he has completely become his own man and discovered Passion and Conviction that will outplay pure politics. We were rubes in that first Bush election, but the rabble is waking up.

[LittleClarkie]

18. Actually, if I may, I'd like to say

I like them both. Somehow some folks see a race between them. Like in Louisiana, for instance. After Kerry went down with aid from Massachusetts, I saw folks saying "Gore was there first."

Both did good. It is not a race to be first or better. I like Kerry more, and would vote for him first, but I would also be proud to call Gore president as well.

Carry on... Kerry on?... anyway...

[ginnyinWI]

23. the difference between Gore and Kerry:

When Kerry ran, they were better at stealing votes than in 2000. He did get more votes than Gore, but we won't know the real totals for either candidate, unfortunately.

[karynnj]

27. Easier race

Gore ran as VP, with greater name recognition and far more coverage than Kerry. (His convention got 9 hours of coverage from the networks, Kerry was given 3 hours.)

Bush was a sitting President who raised the terror level every time Kerry's numbers went up. The echo chamber was much stronger. In 2000, CNN and MSNBC were almost balanced - now they are all conservative dominated. Even the networks were intimidated by being threatened by lack of access.

As to polls, polls in the general population show Kerry ahead of Gore (DU is not the world) Kerry was also the victim of the most intense smear campaign of a candidate I ever saw.

[ladylibertee]

8. On Edwards...

Great Man,Great Politician, Great President(if given the opportunity)and a great statesman.

Hillary...Same as Edwards, but woman at the end.:patriot:

[FrenchieCat]

9. I'm confused.

Were we just supposed to blur out what we think of them, without saying why? If we don't answer the "why" they are what we proclaim, then this op is a waste.

[ladylibertee]

12. Well, heres my whys

He IS a great man because even as an attorney, He defended people who were unable to defend themselves.This also makes him a great statesman and he was a great senator.He is a great politician because he is the only white person alive (other than Clinton) who spoke about confronting racial issues and poverty in this country and " meant it" so, I hope your satisfied with my whys.:)

[FrenchieCat]

14. As a black person, I can clearly tell you that

Edwards was NOT the only white person alive who spoke of confronting racial issues. Even Dean did that! And so did Clark! In fact, Clark signed the brief that went to the supreme court in the University of Michigan case defending Affirmative Action.

Did Edwards do Pro-Bono cases? I heard he never did.

[ladylibertee]

15. They may have, however, not to the extent that Edwards did

Edit to add: P.S. I'm black too. By the way.:pals:

[FrenchieCat]

16. Kewl! From what part?

You should post at the African-American DU Forum sometimes if you don't.

Would be nice to have more of us there!

[ladylibertee]

17. I didn't know there was one.Cool.I'm from San Diego, but had to

move to Green Bay,Wisconsin.:puke:

[FrenchieCat]

19. Here is the forum....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=258

[ladylibertee]

20. WOW ! We got some issues!LOL Thank You for the info.

[FrenchieCat]

21. I'm from the Bay Area.....Oakland/East bay!

[ladylibertee]

22. Right on...WEST SOYD !!! LOL

[LittleClarkie]

24. Ah, gotcha. Sorry about my earlier post

Hillary -- Good woman, eh politican, might be a decent president, but a bit too much of a panderer to be a good statesperson.

Clark -- Good man, learning about being a good politican, would make a good prez, and already has the makings of a good statesman.

There, how's that.

I agree about Kerry, btw.

[win_in_06]

5. JFK

Good Man
Great Politician
Great President
Great Statesman

[second edition]

10. Not for me, I still admire and like John Kerry!

I hope Kerry decides to run in 2008. Gore is a good man, but he wasn't as relevent as Kerry has been after his defeat.

[kiki]

11. As a man, Bush is worthless.

As a politician, he is currently equally worthless, although I guess he could have been considered "fair" in his prime.

He is not, and never has been, a statesman or president.

I submit that you need two new categories for Bush - "Successful criminal", "Severely sociopathic".

[LittleClarkie]

13. Aw Judas Priest

Shoot me. Just shoot me.

Guys. I love Al. I really do. You gotta good product there. You do not have to come on like a used car salesman and hard sell the guy. It's a turnoff. It really is.

[karynnj]

25. Here's my try:

I almost opted not to evaluate anyone who was not a President on that category. The reason is that it's unfair to those who were President - For example, if I think A should be President, it's because I've come to feel he/she has the skills/personality/policies that would make a good President. I would just be projecting my hopes. But as it is the key thing - I guessed anyway, but as a range. (Also, on politician I compared them to the class of viable Presidential candidates - knowing that poor is still probably about 90 percentile in the overall population.)

Jimmy Carter was a very good man, a poor politician, a fair President, a Good statesman

(Why fair President - his call for conservation and his push for an ethical foreign policy were prescient. If he had the skills to get people to follow him, these policies would have led to less pain.)

Ronald Reagan was a mediocre man, great politician, poor President, and good (although I disagree) statesman

(Poor President due to all the toxic problems he created - Bin Laden for example)

GHWB - poor man, mediocre politician, mediocre President (and complicit w/Reagan), poor statesman

Clinton - mediocre man, Great politician, fair President, good statesman (the economy is cyclical, the welfare changes are now being tested by a poor job market, he implemented NAFTA without pushing for the human rights/workers' rights he promised Democrats he would, he ignored concerns about terrorists using the world wide banking systems. For the Democratic party these plus Monica = mediocre (although he's still wildly popular)

W - abysmal man, good politician (but in a bubble with an evil genius), abysmal President, incoherent statesman

Non- Presidents

Kerry - great man, fair politician, (fair, Great)President, Great statesman

(man- Kerry has put everything at risk to do good more than any person on this list
politician - Kerry's success was often without the help of media or party; plus - he wins people he reaches, negative - he doesn't pander to the press
President - he is innovative, energetic, willing to listen (and actually consider) alternative opinions, and has skill at working in a bi-partisan manner (getting a unanimous agreement on the POW/MIA report was remarkable).
Statesman - He is the only one on this list who already has a speech often listed as among the great speeches. (Clinton's are like cotton candy - sweet at the time, but ephemeral)

Edwards - fair man, very good politician, (poor, great) President, good statesman
man - I'm put off by some of his legal devises (channeling a baby is beyond reason) Because of things like this I like what he says, but don't trust him. (Without Elizabeth, this would be lower)
politician - a natural
President - no idea, his lack of experience makes it very hard to project
Statesman - His core stump speech is very good

Clark - ? man, (in 2004 - poor, but learning very fast) politician, (poor, great) President , fair statesman

I know this will get flack -

on man - I would need to know more on what he knew re Vietnam and Contras. If he participated in backing the Contrs, without speaking up or resigning - I can't see him as great. I realize that he would have been putting his career on the line, but this is what Kerry did (re Vietnam, the Contras, and BCCI). Great is a tough category

President - question is how he would work with the legislature and a concern that the military background.
Statesman - he was a great surrogate

Hillary - woman - fair
politician - fair, but married to Bill (she had an easy race against first a disgraced Guilliani, then a NY version of a dumber Santorum - like candidate)
President - fair (I think she would be like Bill)
Statesman - up to now - fair

[ComerPerro]

26. Bush is a good politician, only because of LIHOP

that's the only way I will give him credit for being a good politician. He knew that letting that disaster happen would his only claim to legitimacy, and would assure him GOP dominance for years to come.

Otherwise, though, Bush is just a terrible person.

Horrible Man (he is an arrogant, elitist asshole with a history of failure and drug abuse)

Horrible Politician (he is absolutely the worst speaker I have ever seen. He is phony, insincere, and anyone with his speaking "style" would fail a high school speech class)

Horrible President (he spends a quarter of the year vacationing, he has a very apathetic approach to his job, he doesn't read the newspaper or pay attention to world events, and he is completely removed from reality)

Horrible Statesman (his arrogance and obvious idiocy has made even our closest allies question the value of maintaining ties with the US).


And I didn't even have to mention the Iraq War or his absolute failure to bring bin Laden to justice (he just doesn't think about it or care where Osama is, remember?).