Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

[emad]

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent



RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-1798944,00.html

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. Holy Wars. Don't forget Holy Wars.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

66. Danger comes with the BELIEF that they have God on their side,

exclusively.

Someone humble said they only hoped they were on God's side, not the other way around.

[salinen]

2. From the individual up

religion is a cancer.

[hogwyld]

3. Proof

That we need to get ALL religion out of the U.S. now!

[stopbush]

4. But, but, but...!

[Raster]

5. IMO religious conviction should be viewed as a personal failing rather

than a national moral endeavor. Religion is for those that can't handle scientific investigation and discovery.

[cssmall]

11. And, that is as bigoted as the people you claim to hate.

Religious convictions are varied across the board, but I agree that it should not be a litmus test to prove one's "americaness." But, for you to call it a personal failing and equating it to nothing more than a trival game is a bigoted idea. People are hardwired for religion, inasmuch that it has become so damn important to us that whole culture's norms and values are completely reliant upon it.

[emad]

13. Religion = highly profitable superstitious humbug.

Brainwashing from birth. Can't lose.

[cssmall]

16. People can come to faith freely. Religion is the problem.

I agree with that, but it is bigoted to say that someone has a personal failing because they are religious or hold a spiritual conviction. I am a deist, I believe. But, God being God can do whatever the hell it wants to do and I think it created the world and let it take its course, personally. IT IS GOD, right? I am not slamming people for not believing, but to view someone as personally failing or beneath you is morally reprehensible on ANY level: ethically, spiritually, or whatever anyone believes.

Adding my own personal beliefs (on edit)

[emad]

18. I think the Deity's sense of humor far surpasses the evil excesses

of human misery...especially of wing-nut societies that plaster over the cracks in their sell-bys by claiming god-given moral superiority.

[cssmall]

19. *laugh* I would agree with that too. It's a problem when it becomes used

as jusitification for powers that be to continue being. Look at what the USA's state religion has done to the poor in America. The American Dream is our state religion and it's fucked everything up here.

[bonito]

25. Right you can be religious with out having a religion

[cssmall]

30. No, but you can be spiritual.

Jesus Christ did not have a church. He wandered and taught people. Truthfully, the first organized Christian faith was little more than people walking, riding, sailing, or what not around the known world and talking about the faith. To do this, you were required to give all up for the service of the faith. Tell that to a Southern Baptist Convention member tomorrow and watch their jaw drop.

[Raster]

26. people are hardwired for religion because religion has insisted upon it.

religion is perceived to have become so damned important to us because options and alternatives are deterred at every junction. "Our" norms and values are NOT reliant upon religion. Once it's not shoved down our throats, we do quite well.

Religion is the opiate of the masses. If logic and common sense fail, usher in dogma and blind faith.

[cssmall]

29. Typically speaking, in America, our norms and values are COMPLETELY

reliant upon religion because it has been made that way. I understand that religion is opiate of the masses, but only because the true opiate of this culture is the bullshit about the American Dream. Read the Alger tales.

I am a scientist, I believe in scientific fact, what does it matter that I'm spiritual and believe in God.

(On Edit) In closing, I agree with the study. But, to say that someone has a personal failing because they are religious or follow a religion of any sort, as I said eariler, is morally digusting. That's my opinion, much like you're entitled to your own.

[Raster]

31. not at all. perhaps I should rephrase: blind religious conviction

IN MY OPINION, should be viewed as personal failing. I also believe NOT having some type of spiritual connection is a type of personal failing.

Deism: The belief, based solely on reason, in a God who created the universe and then abandoned it, assuming no control over life, exerting no influence on natural phenomena, and giving no supernatural revelation.

[cssmall]

33. I'm a Deist, too.

NT.

[Raster]

35. God was my co-pilot until we crashed into a mountain and I had to eat him.

[Eyeball Kid]

58. If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

n/t

[Raster]

59. and take his wallet.

[ieoeja]

44. Except, of course, for Democracy.

You say our norms amd values are not PARTIALLY reliant upon religion, but COMPLETELY reliant. If that were true we would still have slavery, our wives would be property, and bigotry would be not only socially acceptable, but socially required. More to the point we would live in a kingdom, not a democratic republic.

Religions stand for the exact opposite of this country's core values. God by any name is the ultimate tyrant. To even question God earns eternal damnation in most religions. Where does democracy, freedom of speech and freedom of religion figure into that?

[cssmall]

49. And, do you not think we are living that right now?

Yes, this country's values are completely reliant upon religion, perhaps, like Raster, I should rephrase. They are partially reliant religion; however, that again does not change the fact where the problem lies.

Now, let me give you the exact reason I said our values and norms are completely reliant upon religion. The Christian faith here is NOT being used like what it was being used like in London during the time Marx called religion the opiate of the masses. Our state religion is the American Dream. We have been fed our whole damn lives that we can work our way up from poor to rich. That is our religion; it is a faith; it is organized. I believe I said that in a later post, but that is beside the point. It has been so ingrained in our belief structure that it is an Operative Agent, so to speak, that enforces the current cultural values and norms and then restrains them from even changing. That is why. Christianity has only been tied into it.

But, that's my opinion.

[arewenotdemo]

53. Agree wholeheartedly.

I would just suggest that the religious/mystical experience of being part of or one with the Universal Consciousness is not an illusion, and is in reality the basis of all religion.

I expect that science will gradually lead us to a deeper understanding of this reality and that both science and religion will evolve in the process...

[Raster]

27. and you know, I don't recall "claiming to hate" anyone. Your words.

[cssmall]

28. I realize that and recorrect that to: those we try to be different from.

Sorry, I don't do the hit and run thing, just needed to feed my daughter.

[Raster]

32. Feeding the daughter is good.

[hogwyld]

37. How can you say hardwired

Religion or Faith, however you call it, is a learned trait. In our needs to feel accepted or to conform, we tend to gravitate to what is comfortable. It's comforting to believe that some all powerful thing is in charge. Saves us from having to make some difficult choices. To think he invented us instead of coming from a puddle of goo. Biologically, atheists and fundies are the same.

[ieoeja]

41. You may have just defined WHY religious countries are worse off.

"People are hardwired for religion, inasmuch that it has become so damn important to us that whole culture's norms and values are completely reliant upon it."

Which is why religion sometimes gets in the way of a culture's norms and values advancing.

[cssmall]

43. *points to an eariler post*

I said I thought the study was valid and that statement is to reflect how religion is now ingrained in our culture. Religion should not get in the way of the values and norms changing, however, the values and norms changing are terrifying things to the establishment and thereby USE religion to keep values and norms from changing. See South African Dutch and Slavery and Americans and slavery.

[rexcat]

45. I would respectfully disagree with your take on hardwiring...

Religion is usually introduced to someone (by their parents and society) at a very early age so it is more like "conditioning" rather than hardwiring. You say something enough times to a person (from infancy to early adulthood) and it becomes truth, even if it is fantasy. I could go a little bit further with the analogy but I am not interested in a flame war.

For someone to break the bonds of their conditioning is a testament to the resiliency of the human mind. I was always told if it sounds to good to be true it probably isn't.

[cssmall]

50. Condition is probably what I meant by hardwiring.

I guess. . . couldn't it be a kind of hardwiring? I wonder. . .

[rexcat]

65. Hardwiring...

would be more like instincts (genetically controlled) not a modification of one's thoughts as in conditioning. More semantics than anything else.

I don't see religion be genetically beneficial. I do find religion to be an easy explanation for complicated concepts. Superstitious ideas are much easier to grasp than having to think about, test and formulate your ideas.

Again, not to start a flame war but I equate religion and superstition as being one in the same.

[SaveElmer]

67. Too broad a brush...

There are numerous religious denominations...both Christian and non that have no problems with scientific discovery...and in fact embrace it. Unitarians, UCC...in fact most mainline to liberal protestant denominations.

So to say that to be religious automatically means you are relying on something other than science to explain the physical world is simply wrong!

[Democrats_win]

6. Rome became xstian then Rome fell.

[calimary]

10. Are you the DUer who originally posted that -

"Rome was Christian when it fell"?

WHAT A GREAT QUOTE!!!

I saw it in passing and then forgot where it was and by then it was too late to make a note of it. GREAT QUOTE. TRULY.

[whatever4]

7. Ha! Bet CNN doesn't do much with THAT study nm

[whatever4]

15. And our overflowing prisons have made us "safer"

"The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high"

[calimary]

8. Kicked and RECOMMENDED!

Here is one lifelong Catholic who EARNESTLY wants this on the Greatest page so more people will see it.

Religion, to me, is an "I'm sorry, NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS" affair. And should be KEPT that way.

Wasn't our country founded by people escaping from religious persecution in their motherland? Sadly ironic that their great-great-great-great-great-etc-grandchildren have foisted religious persecution down OUR throats lo these many years later.

[emad]

14. Seconded.

x

[calimary]

34. Thirded - and thank you, everybody who pushed this over the 5-vote

mark. Yay!

I copied this one off into my own files for future reference. In fact, I may even print out a copy to keep at my fingertips - in this blue folder labeled "My Strategy Notes." Hee hee - just realized that, as I sit at my desk, at my computer, that file folder and others are stored in the desk shelving area at my LEFT. :D

I went to Catholic school fulltime from kindergarten through senior year of high school. All-girl, to boot. It was ironically and remarkably pretty progressive, overall. It was strict, alright, and certainly adhered to all the Catholic "stuff," but it also encouraged independent thinking in us, a love of reading and scholarship, and a questioning mind. In fact, among my favorite classes there were the comparative religions class and this advanced Scripture class taught by a Jesuit reject who spent a great deal of time drawing little arrows on the blackboard to illustrate points. One of those points he'd write out was "AS IF." He liked to point to some of the stories especially in the Old Testament and encourage us to read and analyze and meditate upon them with the words "AS IF" in our minds as a filter. What that did was assist in the appreciation of whatever story it was, like Moses parting the Red Sea and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and others, for the motivation and the message behind it, and the methods of communicating those lessons and motivations in the spirit and mentality of the times. It was one of the most valuable lessons I took away with me from there, and it has leavened ALL of my thinking about religion. He was kinda weird, but brilliant, and realized he liked girls too much to go into the priesthood. I will be indebted to him for that lesson, alone, for the rest of my life. I've tried to impart it to my kids as they've gone through the Catholic school circuit. It's helped them, too.

By the way, I found that it didn't lessen the impact or the marvel of these stories AT ALL, not to take them literally. It only increased the appreciation of them and the belief systems they strengthened in the peoples of the time, and let you understand what these people were about, a little more clearly and objectively. Certainly an understanding that would be MOST helpful to those held hostage by the fundie mentality, and clearly something they're NOT getting.

[sam sarrha]

9. Jehovah and Allah are actually Demi-Gods, Jealously is is the quality of a

Demi-God, they are trouble makers and start wars and cause disastrous situations to intimidate and extort placation from their followers. Demi-Gods feel they are denied what the actual gods have.. always want more

Recomended

[rexcat]

47. What I would like to know is where in the hell did the archangles...

come from. Are they gods or lesser gods? In the bible they are there but their origins are shrouded in mystery, or have I missed something?

[emad]

12. Mystical warriors are on Bush family's side, says Gov. Jeb

After more than an hour of solemn ceremony naming Rep. Marco Rubio, R-West Miami, as the 2007-08 House speaker, Gov. Jeb Bush stepped to the podium in the House chamber last week and told a short story about "unleashing Chang," his "mystical warrior" friend.

Here are Bush's words, spoken before hundreds of lawmakers and politicians:"Chang is a mystical warrior. Chang is somebody who believes in conservative principles, believes in entrepreneurial capitalism, believes in moral values that underpin a free society.

"I rely on Chang with great regularity in my public life. He has been by my side and sometimes I let him down. But Chang, this mystical warrior, has never let me down."

Bush then unsheathed a golden sword and gave it to Rubio as a gift.

"I'm going to bestow to you the sword of a great conservative warrior," he said, as the crowd roared.
After more than an hour of solemn ceremony naming Rep. Marco Rubio, R-West Miami, as the 2007-08 House speaker, Gov. Jeb Bush stepped to the podium in the House chamber last week and told a short story about "unleashing Chang," his "mystical warrior" friend.

Here are Bush's words, spoken before hundreds of lawmakers and politicians:"Chang is a mystical warrior. Chang is somebody who believes in conservative principles, believes in entrepreneurial capitalism, believes in moral values that underpin a free society.

"I rely on Chang with great regularity in my public life. He has been by my side and sometimes I let him down. But Chang, this mystical warrior, has never let me down."

Bush then unsheathed a golden sword and gave it to Rubio as a gift.

"I'm going to bestow to you the sword of a great conservative warrior," he said, as the crowd roared.

www.unknownnews.org/05092...riors.html

[bee]

17. finally. recommended. thanks for the post! n/t

[Monkey see Monkey Do]

20. They're all high on Gerin Oil

Richard Dawkins is sounding the clarion call

Gerin oil (or Geriniol to give it its scientific name) is a powerful drug which acts directly on the central nervous system to produce a range of characteristic symptoms, often of an antisocial or self- damaging nature. If administered chronically in childhood, Gerin oil can permanently modify the brain to produce adult disorders, including dangerous delusions which have proved very hard to treat. The four doomed flights of 11th September were, in a very real sense, Gerin oil trips: all 19 of the hijackers were high on the drug at the time. Historically, Geriniol intoxication was responsible for atrocities such as the Salem witch hunts and the massacres of native South Americans by conquistadores. Gerin oil fuelled most of the wars of the European middle ages and, in more recent times, the carnage that attended the partitioning of the Indian subcontinent and, on a smaller scale, Ireland.

Gerin oil addiction can drive previously sane individuals to run away from a normally fulfilled human life and retreat to closed communities from which all but confirmed addicts are excluded. These communities are nearly always limited to one sex, and they vigorously, often obsessively, forbid sexual activity. Indeed, a tendency towards agonised sexual prohibition emerges as a drably recurring theme amid all the colourful variations of Gerin oil symptomatology. Gerin oil does not seem to reduce the libido per se, but it frequently leads to a prurient desire to interfere with, and preferably reduce, the sexual pleasure of others. A current example is the horror with which Gerin oil users view homosexuality, even when expressed in long-term loving relationships.

Gerin oil in strong doses can be hallucinogenic. Hardcore mainliners may hear voices in their heads, or see illusions which seem to the sufferers so real that they often succeed in persuading others of their reality. An individual who reports high-grade hallucinogenic experiences may be venerated, and even followed as some kind of leader, by others who regard themselves as less fortunate. Such following-pathology can long postdate the leader's death, and may expand into bizarre psychedelia such as the cannibalistic fantasy of "drinking the blood and eating the flesh" of the leader.

Strong doses of Geriniol can also lead to "bad trips," in which the user can suffer morbid delusions and fears, notably fears of being tortured, not in the real world but in a postmortem fantasy world. Bad trips of this kind are bound up with a punishment culture which is as characteristic of this drug as the obsessive fear of sexuality already noted. The punishment culture fostered by Gerin oil culminates in the sinister drug-induced fantasy of "allo-punishment"—the belief that individuals can and should be punished for the wrongdoings of others (known on the in-group grapevine as "redemption").

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7036

[zann725]

21. Religion encourages sheeple sit back,allowing God to decide their fate

...creating a powerlessness...nothing the individual can do... nothing can change their circumstances (or fate) but something 'outside' theirselves. An ultimate "inaction" which leads to depression...depression leading to anger (often leading to the need for War and guns) to give a sense of power over something, anything, anyone...if not their own life.

Make 'em feel hopeless, powerless....then send in the bibles. Convert 'em, then offer them a loaft of bread...sparingly in exchange. George Bernard Shaw's "Major Barbara" depicted this so well. If you haven't read it recently...it's timeless...as most Art is.

[rniel]

22. Watch 'Monty Python's Life of Brian"

That will tell you everything you need to know about religion.

[nashville_brook]

23. Feuerbach, anyone?

[bluedawg12]

24. Faith, religion vs religiosity

Faith is a personal experience

Religion is a man made construct based on rules, conduct, and an us vs them mentality.

Religiosity- outward manifestation of religious beliefs that can be perverted to coerce sheeples behavior.

-Hitler was a demigod.
- Kool -ad drinkers believe in demi-gods
-Catholics and Fundy X-tians use religiosity for social engineering.
- Muslim extremists- i.e Islamists use faith to justify terror.

Danger of religiousity is zealotry, God is on our side leads to uncritical acceptance of ideas that may be morally repugnant.

Remember: the inquistions seemd like a good idea at the time.
Cooking JOan of Arc was barbaric, sinful murder, and church ordered.

the list goes on. So, if you have faith, keep it close to your heart but don't beat others over the head with it.

[SnowGoose]

36. Will Rogers:

It's not what you don't know that get's you into trouble.
It's what you "know" that isn't so.

[AX10]

38. A million kicks for the truth!

:kick: x 1,000,000

[bluedawg12]

39. I wish someone would prove the existence of God

I mean, what if there is no God and all of these people are wrong and praying to the ozone layer?

[ieoeja]

46. Ask the other question: what if there IS a God.

Heck, what if the fundies are 100% correct that to even question God is to earn eternal damnation. Then if democracy, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc are good things, God is:

A. Good
B. Evil

[renie408]

48. Ummm...I think that's why they call it "Faith"...

I think proof would sort of negate the whole belief/faith thing and isn't that the point of true religion?

[bluedawg12]

55. Faith is a leap (Tielhard De Chardin) that's why it cannot be imposed

from with out- and comes from with-in.

So, I respect folks for their faith and am tolerant of many expressions of those convictions- but draw the line where anothers faith becomes imposed on my faith.

[fudge stripe cookays]

40. I have two words.

NO SHIT~!

FSC

[renie408]

42. Oh my...

that feels really GOOD to read.

[Jokinomx]

51. A very interesting post.....

Thanks for sharing it....

Religions are all man made. Some truths may infiltrate these cults... but the real meaning behind what a "Master" has said is generally lost to the feeble attempts of religious leaders trying to explain what the Master said.

With that.... I consider myself religionless... but very spiritual.

Morals and ethics have zero to do with religions... everything to do with spirituality. Knowing we all are spiritual beings experiencing the physical universe, growing, maturing and eventually graduating from this place after untold lifetimes.

IMHO....

Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

[KittyWampus]

52. The basis of this "study" is based on a false premise- that religiosity

hinges on a belief in a creator.

One could just as well do a study on countries that are Materialistic and how THAT enters into creating things like:

petroleum wars
industrial pollution
poverty

The corporate elite have been using religion, class, race and sexuality to divide people and subjugate them for a very long time.

The author of the study is simply pulling stuff out of his ass trying to
prove his forgone conclusion.

Pity so many DU'ers have rushed to embrace such a poorly written and thought out attempt at scholarship.

[bluedawg12]

56. The divorce rate and teen preg. rate higher in red states

that are considered to be more church going than blue states.

I read that divorce and teen pg. was lower in Massachusetts the favorite punching bag state of cons. than in red states.

I haven't read the origonal paper, so do not know the stats, and how they selected out other variables.

But it certainly got us talking...which is cool.

[KittyWampus]

57. here's a link & clips. I wonder if those red states have more povert y

and perhaps THAT accounts for higher divorce and teen pregnancy rates?


http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html
Study: Too much religiosity may be hazardous to a society's health


From the Journal of Religion & Society:


http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies

A First Look

Gregory S. Paul
Baltimore, Maryland

<6> Agreement with the hypothesis that popular religiosity is societally advantageous is not limited to those opposed to evolutionary science, or to conservatives. The basic thesis can be held by anyone who believes in a benign creator regardless of the proposed mode of creation, or the believer’s social-political worldview. In broad terms the hypothesis that popular religiosity is socially beneficial holds that high rates of belief in a creator, as well as worship, prayer and other aspects of religious practice, correlate with lowering rates of lethal violence, suicide, non-monogamous sexual activity, and abortion, as well as improved physical health. Such faith-based, virtuous “cultures of life” are supposedly attainable if people believe that God created them for a special purpose, and follow the strict moral dictates imposed by religion. At one end of the spectrum are those who consider creator belief helpful but not necessarily critical to individuals and societies. At the other end the most ardent advocates consider persons and people inherently unruly and ungovernable unless they are strictly obedient to the creator (as per Barna; Colson and Pearcey; Johnson; Pearcey; Schroeder). Barro labels societal advantages that are associated with religiosity “spiritual capital,” an extension of Putman’s concept of “social capital.” The corresponding view that western secular materialism leads to “cultures of death” is the official opinion of the Papacy, which claims, “the proabortion culture is especially strong precisely where the Church’s teaching on contraception is rejected” (John Paul II). In the United States popular support for the cultural and moral superiority of theism is so extensive that popular disbelief in God ranks as another major societal fear factor.

<7> The media (Stepp) gave favorable coverage to a report that children are hardwired towards, and benefit from, accepting the existence of a divine creator on an epidemiological and neuro-scientific basis (Benson et al.). Also covered widely was a Federal report that the economic growth of nations positively responds to high rates of belief in hell and heaven.<3> Faith-based charities and education are promoted by the Bush administration<4> and religious allies and lobbies as effective means of addressing various social problems (Aronson; Goodstein). The conservative Family Research Council proclaims, “believing that God is the author of life, liberty and the family, FRC promotes the Judeo-Christian worldview as the basis for a just, free and stable society.” Towards the liberal end of the political spectrum presidential candidate Al Gore supported teaching both creationism and evolution, his running mate Joe Leiberman asserted that belief in a creator is instrumental to “secure the moral future of our nation, and raise the quality of life for all our people,” and presidential candidate John Kerry emphasized his religious values in the latter part of his campaign.

<8> With surveys showing a strong majority from conservative to liberal believing that religion is beneficial for society and for individuals, many Americans agree that their church-going nation is an exceptional, God blessed, “shining city on the hill” that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly skeptical world. But in the other developing democracies religiosity continues to decline precipitously and avowed atheists often win high office, even as clergies warn about adverse societal consequences if a revival of creator belief does not occur (Reid, 2001).


...

<18> In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy, and abortion in the prosperous democracies (Figures 1-9). The most theistic prosperous democracy, the U.S., is exceptional, but not in the manner Franklin predicted. The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so, and almost always scores poorly. The view of the U.S. as a “shining city on the hill” to the rest of the world is falsified when it comes to basic measures of societal health. Youth suicide is an exception to the general trend because there is not a significant relationship between it and religious or secular factors. No democracy is known to have combined strong religiosity and popular denial of evolution with high rates of societal health. Higher rates of non-theism and acceptance of human evolution usually correlate with lower rates of dysfunction, and the least theistic nations are usually the least dysfunctional. None of the strongly secularized, pro-evolution democracies is experiencing high levels of measurable dysfunction. In some cases the highly religious U.S. is an outlier in terms of societal dysfunction from less theistic but otherwise socially comparable secular developing democracies. In other cases, the correlations are strongly graded, sometimes outstandingly so.

[Stinky The Clown]

54. Strong religion often begets absolutism in thinking, which begets

intolerance which begets hate which begets a diminsihment of concern for those 'not like you' which begets war, genocide, exclusion and a whole host of ills ...... as we see in this country today.

[Heewack]

60. Ruth Gledhill is being dishonest.

"RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today."

From the study:

"Regression analyses were not executed because of the high variability of degree of correlation, because potential causal factors for rates of societal function are complex, and because it is not the purpose of this initial study to definitively demonstrate a causal link between religion and social conditions."


http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html#figures

[bluedawg12]

61. This is a preliminary study:

>"This is not an attempt to present a definitive study that establishes cause versus effect between religiosity, secularism and societal health. It is hoped that these original correlations and results will spark future research and debate on the issue."<

Since the societal markers used (violence, crime, std's) are likely due to complex multi variat causes I take this type of study with a grain of salt. But- she did say it was prelim and cited another sutdy that concluded:

>"There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms (Aral and Holmes; Beeghley, Doyle, 2002)."<

Give me a nice drosophila melanogaster to study any day. These societal studies can be used by right and left to prove any pet theory.:argh:

[Heewack]

62. I'd like to see the studies continue.

I think that the conclusions the Times author made could be valid given the substantiating data, but I find it rather disheartening to purposefully misconstrue a study so blatantly.

[Old Mouse]

63. good catch n/t

[Old Mouse]

64. can someone point me to the society

free of the sociological influences of Judo-Christianity, Islam, Buddhism used to make the comparison?