Voting for Clark?

[Bhaisahab]

Kurt Nimmo has this transcript of an interview with Wes Clark on his role in the bombing of a TV station in Yugoslavia. You all might want to read it.

excerpt:

JEREMY SCAHILL: General Clark, on that issue of the bombing of Radio Television Serbia, Amnesty International called it a war crime.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Excuse me -- I'm not --

JEREMY SCAHILL: Amnesty called it a war crime and it's condemned by all journalist organizations in the world. It killed makeup artists.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I want to answer this fellow. Because the truth was that that -- first of all, we gave warnings to Milosevic that that was going to be struck. I personally called the CNN reporter and had it set up so that it would be leaked, and Milosevic knew. He had the warning because after he got the warning, he actually ordered the western journalists to report there as a way of showing us his power, and we had done it deliberately to sort of get him accustomed to the fact that he better start evacuating it. There were actually six people who were killed, as I recall.

JEREMY SCAHILL: There were 16.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: I recall six.

JEREMY SCAHILL: I was there at the time and I knew the families. They do hold Milosevic accountable and they also hold you accountable, sir.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: They were ordered to stay there.

full transcript of interview here: http://www.kurtnimmo.com/blogger.html

[overground1]

1. he didn't win any delegates tonight, so we are safe for now

[in_cog_ni_to]

63. Think again.

He won 30 delegates. :eyes:

[incapsulated]

2. I am soooo close to getting another warning

But this isn't worth it.

[John_H]

68. My new motto: "Do not sweat the one percent"

There are always going to be about two percent of Americans who cannot control their own Authoritiarian impulses--one percent of these folks choose the extreme right from which to browbeat anyone not as pure as them, the other one percent choses the left.

These people see the world in strictly black and white, literally so for the one percenters on the right, symbolically so for the one percenters on the left. War and Generals are by definition evil for the one percenters on the left, and if one percenters ever rise to power believe you me: Generals (along with corporatists, polluters and SUV owners will pay.

The good news--99 percent of the American people have a more nuanced view of things and would read Clark's answers and say, "Jeez, he gave them a chance to get everyone out. Milisovich wanted some press."

Am I personally attacking the relentless Clark bashers on DU, calling them one percenters? No, since I don't read their posts with enough interest to tell. I suggest everone make up his or her own minds.

[windansea]

3. he warned them fair and square

what's the most dangerous thing Dean ever did??

sign a civil union bill??

[Printer70]

8. Great- it's ok because he "warned" a homicidial maniac

He warned Milosivec who didn't care about the fate of his people or anyone else. What did he expect? He put the lives of those people in the hands and judgment of a madman. And they died. The blood is on his hands. He warned the WRONG person. Bad judgment, rightfully termed a war crime.

[windansea]

15. yep...that's why Clark was on the witness stand

:cry:



:thumbsdown:

[Printer70]

40. The question is why wasn't Clark named as a defendant

It's considered a war crime. Clark ordered the bombing.

[windansea]

45. considered??

by what jurisdiction?? provide a legal authority charging Clark with a war crime or stow it

[Printer70]

52. Saddle up with Milosivec

And own up to the crime. I don't want to hear "no controlling legal authority".

[wyldwolf]

55. too bad, because it takes a legal authority authorized and qualified...

...to make the charge.

[snippy]

57. Turd Blossom Rove is his legal authority.

[Phelan]

19. so you agree Milo is a mad man

and the TV station was being used as a C3 facility. i.e. making it a legit target under warfare rules. Get mad at Milo for using a civilian structure for military C3 purposes.

[windansea]

27. I agree Milo's going to jail

and that Clark and Gert will live happily ever after

:hi:

[Printer70]

42. We have technology that can knock out...

...electricity and communications. It's called a microwave bomb and uses an electromagnetic pulse. It kills no one.

[Phelan]

61. Ohh yeah I saw the special on that I think it was on

Goldeneye

[hope42mro]

50. What was he supposed to do? Give Milo his war plans?

I doubt he warned Milosivec. Actually, he clearly states that he purposely leaked the future target to the REPORTER, not Milosivec; probably because its bad form to tell your enemy your war plans, which might not go over so well with the higher-ups. And I disagree with you when you say "he(Clark)put the lives of those people in the hands of a madman." If, hypothetically, Clark had control over the lives of those people I doubt he'd have put them in a second holocaust.

Clark stuck his neck out to help the Albanians. Ask any of the thousands of Albanians saved by NATO and General Clark.

[in_cog_ni_to]

62. So instead of

blaming the MADMAN, you blame Clark? Un-fucking-believable. Clark also called CNN and got the word out. The Hague has already investigated this...or can't you read. Clark did all he could to get those people out of there. YOU need to be blaming Milosevic, not Clark. Your thinking process is skewed. :eyes: People die in war. The war would not have happened had Milosevic stopped his ethnic cleansing...he chose not to. Look at Milosevic if you need to blame someone. :grr:

[Mobius]

64. apparently 1.5 million dead Albanians is better?

Those people were warned and ordered to stay. The station was being used by Milosevic to report troop movements as well as the Chinese embassy. The Chinese were supposed to be neutral, but were using their communications wing to brief Milosevic as to the location of American troops. Would you have felt better if 1.5 million Albanians and several hundred Americans died? Clark did his JOB protecting American soldiers. A damn site better than Bush is doing right now.
Pfffft...

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. Actually, I think this will help Clark. Killing civilians is popular

Especially now, in this new era, this very different kind of war.

I think people feel like Clark is a crack-down kind of guy who will root out sleeper cells and do whatever it takes to stamp out anti-American sentiment in key US properties around the globe.

[incapsulated]

6. I have a question for you

You refuse to endorse any candidate. Fine.

But, without opening yourself to any criticism because you refuse to take a stand, you feel free to snipe at candidates at will.

What is your purpose here? Are you voting at all?

[windansea]

some people are just

sooooooooooooo.....above it all


:evilgrin:

[DuctapeFatwa]

14. Please list the issues on which I have not taken a stand

Just in case I have missed any.

Do you feel that only supporters of a particular candidate should comment on the political process?

I'm not sure why you would perceive my comment as a snipe. It is an observation, and has less to do with the candidates than with the voting class.

[windansea]

17. the voting class??

yikes

:eyes:

[DuctapeFatwa]

21. Generally, US voters are the top 25% income tier (nt)

[incapsulated]

22. Well I'm not

And you act as if those who bother to vote should somehow be ashamed of it.

:eyes:

[DuctapeFatwa]

33. That is an interesting perception

that more than makes up in originality whatever it may lack in accuracy.

[HuskerDem]

28. Great, who do I see about being so fucking underpaid?

The overeducated and under-experienced ......... underwhelm me.

[incapsulated]

18. I know you like to play semantic games

You snipe at candidates, mine I know you have, and then play word games to act as if you didn't. I won't play games with you.

This is the Primary folder. We are here discussing candidates and the primary campaigns.

The only thing you seem interested in posting are general attacks on the Democratic Party because of the war, and driveby snipes at certain candidates.

The second aside, the first seems better suited to the General folder, in my opinion.

[DuctapeFatwa]

29. I think you are displeased because I refuse to participate in them

I acknowledge that many people are displeased by any comments about candidates reflecting opinions that do not agree with their own, and I do not deny being amused by that.

Could you repost the links to my general attacks on the Democratic party? Apparently there was a glitch, they didn't show up in your post.

[incapsulated]

34. I'm not going to bother

The last time I had an exchange with you it was an endless word game of denial about another snipe at Clark.

That you refuse to own up to the one that you made in this very thread is evidence enough to these games, I'm not wasting my time again searching for anything.

Or continuing in this thread.

[DuctapeFatwa]

41. If he is your candidate, I would think you would be pleased

Essentially, I said I think he will appeal to the voting class.

If anything, it is a compliment to Clark's shrewdness in choosing an opportune moment to launch his political career.

[Turkw]

67. Yes, do NOTHING and let more people get killed by the other side is such

a better strategy. Every conflict we have been in for the last couple of decades has focused on learning how to minimize civilian casualties. I would think this is a good thing. War are going to happen, you would prefer we go back to carpet bombing?

[MrSlayer]

5. Zzzzzzzzz...We did this yesterday.

Wake me when you have something new.
:boring:

[overground1]

11. wake me up when you win some delegates

[windansea]

23. don't think Hamm got any

:cry:

[overground1]

46. Sadly, no. But Hamm was here before, and he'll be here when they're gone

You can be sure Hamm will be running next election, just as he ran in this election and the 2 before. One of these times, he is going to win it all.

HAMM '08

[in_cog_ni_to]

65. Clark won 30 delegates in NH.

Pay attention!!!!!

Go Wes!

[kiahzero]

66. Huh?

I thought he needed 15% to get delegates?

[TakebackAmerica]

7. pp,

What about all the civilians who died because of John Kerry and John edwards voting for the war?

Clark is a good, honest, thoughtful man, he is no "rambo" killing machine.


There are only three anti-war canididates, Dennis Kucinch, Howard Dean and Wes Clark.

[Uzybone]

12. wrong

Take Clark and Dean off that list

[mmonk]

9. Striking a blow

for the status quo?

[meow mix]

10. karl? is that you?

still scared of clark huh? la la la

some people are so paranoid they cant even tell when they
have something good. yeesh

[poppabear36]

13. War sucks

A radio station being used for propoganda purposes to prop up a genocidal regime. Is that a civilian target?
Jeremy Scahill has a hard-on for Clark, as does Democracy Now, in general, as much as I love them.
Wes Clark is hardly the callous, war-mongering maniac that Democracy Now wants to make him out to be.
Does Scahill really believe that NATO's activies against the Serbs didn't prevent untold innocent deaths at the hands of an admittedly genocidal regime?

[QC]

16. Not admittedly.

Strangely enough, there are quite a few alleged leftists who consider Milosevic an innocent victim. Some of those Slobophiles even post here.

[DuctapeFatwa]

20. Kevin Bacon, the Pentagon spokesman at the time, said that

the attacks had not prevented a single act of brutality aganist Kosovar Albanians.

I do not have a link, he said it live on CNN and I heard him, as did millions of other people.

You may remember that while the civilian infrastructure of Yugoslavia was attacked extensively, minimal damage was done to Slobo's army, and bombing convoys of refugees on their way to be starved and beaten to death in a hostile Macedonia, quite a few were bombed by NATO, thus significantly reducing Macedonia's burden. They appreciated it.

[poppabear36]

25. I see it so clearly now!

Clarks's aim was to maximize civilian casualties while doing minimal damage to the Serbs, even to the extent of ruthlessly bombing retreating refugees, thus sidling up to the Macedonians and earning their eternal gratitude. In fact I bet the big money behind Clark is coming from those same Macedonians, who recognize in Clark a black, murderous soul like their own.
When you see the truly evil motives behind Clark's actions in Serbia, the outcome of that horrible-hell-on-earth civil war and genocide makes so much sense.

[DuctapeFatwa]

32. My understanding is that he was in the employ of NATO at the time.

I would assume he carried out his duties according the mandate of his employers.

My comments have to do with the events that occurred.

[windansea]

37. some reading material

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~bosnia/criminal/criminals.html

[DuctapeFatwa]

39. If you are seeking someone to praise Milosovich, I am not a good choice

[windansea]

43. ok then...can you praise any leader anywhere?

give us some examples of your heroes...who you respect...especially anyone who is currently running a government

[DuctapeFatwa]

44. Sure! Hugo Chavez. Even though less than 90% of the people support him

and they are for the most part, poor indigenous people, who selfishly put their own petty concerns about food and health care above US business interests.

I think Uri Avnery would make a terrific Prime Minister of Israel, and I was sorry that Amien Rais lost to Megawati in Indonesia.

I was very supportive of the King of Tonga's recent campaign to improve dietary habits on the island by giving everyone who lost ten pounds a radio.

I am cautiously optimistic about Luiz Inacio Lula.

Mahathir Mohamad has been quietly going around talking to people about the gold dinar since the crusade began, and despite his Tourettesque brain farts, and being a lame duck, I agree with his non-violent approach and believe that in the long run, it stands a better chance of being effective than military action, especially given the lack of a coalition at this point in time.

[windansea]

47. interesting

and pretty much what I expected...altough the King of Tonga was a surprise...ever been to malaysia or venezuela??

[LandOLincoln]

31. Kevin Bacon? A Pentagon spokesman too? Is there nothing

the man can't do? :evilgrin:

Apparently he can't find any actual Kosovar Albanians to talk to, because Clark is a hero to them.

[QC]

35. Hamm/Bacon 2004! n/t

[DuctapeFatwa]

38. The former Pentagon spokesman does have the same name as an actor

to the best of my knowledge, the fact that they share the same name is a coincidence.

Do you have any information to the contrary?

[LandOLincoln]

24. I listen to Democracy Now every day, but she's REALLY pissing me off

and I want to email or phone her to ask why she and Scahill are carrying water for the RNC and--apparently--Milosevic.

I'm too tired to do a search. Anyone have the email addy and/or phone number?

[GiovanniC]

60. And When We Get Liberated

Will anyone care when our liberators bomb Fox News?

[Bhaisahab]

26. Update

that excerpt in the original post was a bit harsh on clark. he's actually a nice man if you continue reading the transcript:

JEREMY SCAHILL: And what about the bombing of the Nis marketplace with cluster bombs, shredding human beings.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: It was terrible, but you know in that instance, if we had got the same incident, there was a cluster bomb that opened prematurely. It was an accident. And every one of these incidents was fully investigated. All of the material from the Yugoslavian government was given to the International Criminal Tribunal, plus as the NATO commander, I made a full report to the International Criminal Tribunal. It was all investigated. The pilots who did it, nobody could have felt worse than the pilots who did it. And I got a letter from a man in Serbia who said you killed my granddaughter on a schoolyard at Nis. I know how he must have felt. And I felt so helpless about it. Every night before I let those bombs go, I prayed we wouldn't kill innocent people. But unfortunately, when you are at war, terrible things happen, even when you don't want them to. You can't imagine what those pilots felt like in those convoys when they struck the convoys. You remember the convoys?

[democratreformed]

30. Thanks, but we had a link to the WHOLE INTERVIEW the other day

Besides, haven't you listened to the news? He is not a threat in this race. LOL

[Bhaisahab]

36. i'm not from america..

.. so i wouldn't know what's on radio there. i'm just so keen to know what kind of a person will take on bush.
personally, i'd vote kucinich for president if i could, and clark for VP.

[ConsAreLiars]

48. original transcript and video of interview here

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/26/1632224

I recommend watching the video if you have the bandwidth.
The essential questions are whether or not there is such a thing as a "just war" since not only civilians but even most soldiers are "innocents" in some respect; and then, if so, was this one just. Then the question is whether or not Clark was sincerely attempting to reduce the probabilities of civilian casualties - watching gives more data than the transcript alone. After watching compare his credibility on the issue of casualties with that of others who have spoken to this issue.

My view is that there are two dominant trends in the US - one that is willing to tear down the mask of "one nation (world) ... of, by and for the people" and another that that believes that maintaining social peace is more cost-effective and profitable than open repression. Both tendencies held some power in both major parties in the past, but now it is pretty synonymous with Cons vs Dems.

So I don't expect a lot, certainly not perfection, from whomever the Dem candidate might be. But even though justice/karma might be best served by seeing the iron fist of US imperialism turned against us USAns, I'd much rather see the vicious bunch of greedy narcissists and cowards now in control of the US state apparatus replaced by any Dem. As a subjective impression, I see Clark as being as credibly anti-war as any of our top candidates, and more than some who make the same claim.

But none of them at this time, unfortunately, is Nelson Mandela or Arundhati Roy. Until then, we have to focus on "harm reduction" in presidential campaigns and keep working for a cure on other battlefronts.

(edit: added (world) after nation)

[maxr4clark]

49. A different view

This is an excerpt from this page at Kidding on the (Public) Square. I'll take this kind of endorsement from a Pulitzer Prize-winning author any time over the story you gave.

---snip---

This view of Clark is given by Samantha Power, the Pulitzer Prize winning author of "A Problem from Hell: America in the Age of Genocide." Power is the executive director of the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard. Click the link below for Samantha Power's comments:

In the book, written before Clark entered politics, Power credited him with saving the lives of 1.3 million Albanians. She gives a more plausible explanation for Clark's removal from Europe than Shelton does, and her opinion of Clark's character and integrity more than outweigh Shelton's.

At Clark's press conference last week upon his return from the Milosevic trial, Power introduced Clark as someone who led an intervention in genocide for the first and only time in US history. Alluding to Washington politics, she said Clark was "willing to own something that was very unfashionable at the time." She notes in her book (again, before Clark entered politics) that this personal sacrifice caused Clark to suffer his early retirement at the hands of Washington bureaucrats.

The following excerpts from Power’s book give the details. The narrative surrounding the quotes was written by another person commenting on the book. Note especially Power's last comment below on Clark's pariah status in Washington:

General Clark is one of the heroes of Samantha Power's book. She introduces him on the second page of her chapter on Rwanda and describes his distress on learning about the genocide there and not being able to contact anyone in the Pentagon who really knew anything about it and/or about the Hutu and Tutsi. She writes, "He frantically telephoned around the Pentagon for insight into the ethnic dimension of events in Rwanda. Unfortunately, Rwanda had never been of more than marginal concern to Washington's most influential planners" (p. 330) .
He advocated multinational action of some kind to stop the genocide. "Lieutenant General Wesley Clark looked to the White House for leadership. 'The Pentagon is always going to be the last to want to intervene,' he says. 'It is up to the civilians to tell us they want to do something and we'll figure out how to do it.' But with no powerful personalities or high-ranking officials arguing forcefully for meaningful action, midlevel Pentagon officials held sway, vetoing or stalling on hesitant proposals put forward by midlevel State Department and NSC officials" (p. 373).

According to Power, General Clark was already passionate about humanitarian concerns, especially genocide, before his appointment as Supreme Allied Commander of NATO forces in Europe. When genocide began to occur in the Balkans, he was determined to stop it.

She details his efforts in behalf of the Dayton Peace Accords and his brilliant command of NATO forces in Kosovo. Her chapter on Kosovo ends, "The man who probably contributed more than any other individual to Milosvevic's battlefield defeat was General Wesley Clark. The NATO bombing campaign succeeded in removing brutal Serb police units from Kosovo, in ensuring the return on 1.3 million Kosovo Albanians, and in securing for Albanians the right of self-governance."

"Yet in Washington Clark was a pariah. In July 1999 he was curtly informed that he would be replaced as supreme allied commander for Europe. This forced his retirement and ended thirty-four years of distinguished service. Favoring humanitarian intervention had never been a great career move."

[1971]

51. Great reference, maxr4clark. Thanks.

I, too, have been disappointed at Democracy Now!'s persistent negative focus on Clark... but they redeemed themselves (a little) by airing Clark's own words (Clark/Scahill interview) ... and if people actually listened to that, and did not just read the headlines on the web, then they could hear a good example of the reasoned leadership that Clark possesses.

I honestly think too many people are prejudiced to all military... heck, I would've been the same way when I was in my 20's.

[overground1]

53. How do anti-war Clark supporters cope with the cognative dissonance?

[Lurking Dem]

58. Genocide you're okay with? eom

[Bonobo]

59. Ok, I'll take you on in an honest exchange of my feelings/opinions

if you or DF can hold off on the condescending smirking tone. Beleive it or not, on the other side of this terminal exists a person just you who loves, is loved, works, sleeps, shits, eats and stars in his very own 'MOVIE' (in the Kesey sense) as you.
So please understand that and I will try to share. Otherwise, let me know and you can just proceed with your own party.

[JPJones]

54. yawn

Clinton was the CINC, is he a war criminal?

As was said before, the bombing list was approved by 19 countries.

[wyldwolf]

56. The problem with this, and with the repeated posting of it...

...is that one simple fact is overlooked - no war crimes charges have been leveled by the only qualified entity to make such charges.

Truth is, no matter how many people continue to post it, the charges just aren't sticking.

It it the ability to beat Bush that voters are concerned about which explains John Kerry's meteoric rise to two victories, Howard Dean's fall, and Kucinich barely measuring.

``They may have their ideology and they may have their beliefs, but boy, there's one thing they're really concerned about, and that's who can beat George W. Bush,'' said Leon Panetta, the former Monterey congressman and White House chief of staff under President Clinton. ``Very frankly, if you can't do that, you're not worth very much.''

As Magistrate, a fellow DU'er said:

The continued assertion there were (war crimes committed by Wesley Clark) is based on two things: an a priori view that use of military force by the U.S. is illegitimate by definition, and a lack of appreciation of how the laws of war apply to its actual practice. It is not possible to prove anything to persons who hold that view, as they have not arrived at by its having been proved to them, but only have adopted it because it fits their accustomed ideological parameters.

More important is to understand that such charges have no resonance with any but a tiny band of left extremists, most of whom have opted out of the electoral process for various splinter-group actions, and a similarly tiny band of right extremists, who will never vote for a Democratic Party candidate in any case. The general public will be rather inclined to view the NATO campaign in Kossovo as a favorable contrast to the current botch-up in Iraq: it was quickly successful, with a minimum of casualties, and the criminal who was its object is now on trial at The Hague.

Those who promote the charge can sing it from the highest rooftops - but virtually no one is buying.

[elixir]

69. I highly suggest everyone listen to the audio. I was inspired!