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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:04 AM
Original message
What sort of anti vietnam stuff did Kerry do
My cousin is telling me that Kerry did some really controversial stuff during vietnam demonstrations etc, anyone know what?
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Here is one perspective from a Veteran of Vietnam
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. My God. n/t
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
32. Bizarre, Wilson acknowledges Kerry's support of
the Veterans Fast For Life and then criticizes him for something Warren Rudman said. Just what axe does he have to grind?
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. VVAW
He was a leading member of Vietnam Vets Against the War
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. ok
Well my cousin (mind you he's a freeper) told me he like defecated on his medals and stuff.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Freepers lie
and you should tell your cousin how offended that he would be so cowardly as to lie to a family member. Is that what he means when he talks about "family values"? Make sure he understands how contemptible his lies are and how it's led to your not respecting him. If possible, say it in front of other family members.
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. He probably think it's true
He wouldn't lie.. he probably just read it on some rightwing site and ofcourse took it as a fact.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Call him on it!!
Even if he thought it was true, then you hammer him for believing something he read on the Internet. Make him KNOW that his actions have consequences and the next time he wants to repeat someone else's lie, he'll think twice.

Believe me, I've got the same problem with a brother-in-law. Last Easter he was giving the speech about how Clinton did nothing about terrorism (according to him, Clinton sent the message to terrorists that it was OK to bomb us) , so I made sure everyone knew about how Reagan invaded Grenanda a few days after Hezbollah truck-bombed a Marine barracks in Beirut killing 241 Marines (which sent the message to terrorists that if they attack us, we'll invade Club Med) and then later pulled the Marines out of Lebanon (sending the message that if the terrorists bomb us, we'll retreat)
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Well there's your problem...
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 10:22 AM by onehandle
A Freeper will not bend or have accurate information.

Next time talk about the weather or gossip about family.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. That's ridiculous.
what he did was throw military medals at the White House.

It appeared that he was throwing his own, but that's not the case. He kept his, and threw other people's medals. Apparently he knew even then that he'd need his medals later.

He also wrote a book, "The New Soldier". I haven't been able to get a copy, because apparently when he began his Senate run, he had all that he could find pulled from circulation and destroyed. Surviving copies of the book are going for hundreds of dollars on Ebay. I'm more than a little curious to read what he had to say, and why he felt it was so damaging later on.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. that's not true either
He did throw his own. He threw his own ribbons. When you're awarded a medal in the military you get medals and ribbons both. One you wear on your dress greens and the other well I don't know what the hell you do with them. Mine are in a box. He and the other vets as a symbol of protest threw their ribbons.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #23
29. Would you care to document that?
everything I've read says that he did NOT throw his own decorations.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Here you go
In April 1971 while testifying before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Vietnam, he asked a question that echoed throughout the country: "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" A day after delivering this simple question, he led a group of veterans that hurled their war medals onto the Capitol steps to protest the war. Though it later became clear that Kerry had only thrown his ribbons on the steps (to this day his medals are proudly displayed in his office), the events cemented Kerry's position as a leading critic of the Vietnam War. Morley Safer praised him as "a veteran whose call to reason . . . seemed to bridge Abbie Hoffman's of the world and Agnew's so called ‘silent-majority.'"

http://www.bop2004.org/bop2004/candidate.aspx?cid=4

He says that he was proud of his medals and threw his ribbons as a sign of protest. He did however, from what I understand, throw the medals of some other people who had given them to him to throw, because they were unable to be there themselves.
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. it's only a matter of time before the media buys a copy
and starts reading excerpts...
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. He didn't defecate on his medals. He pretended to throw them
over a fence, as his comrades did so.

His miraculously remained safe and intact.
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. he threw his ribbons
he didn't pretend to throw anything
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #19
27. Whether he threw them or didn't...
the fact that they were awarded remains; also, veterans with proof of award of a specific decoration may obtain replacements if they desire in the even their medals and ribbons are lost, mutilated, or whatever. Not really an issue.
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. And ended up on his office wall years later.
eom
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Ahhh, the joy of having it both ways! Way to go Kerry!
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Snivi Yllom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
34. let me get this straight
Kerry pretended to throw medals from a war which he has protested vigorously initially but now as a candidate promotes endlessly...

well that seems consistent.
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. He doesn't promote the Vietnam war
Does he?
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HootieMcBoob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. No he doesn't
You people crack me up. He is justifiably proud of his service to his country. He threw his damn ribbons for god's sake as a symbol of protest and kept the medals because he is proud of having received them. He was against the war and protested it after returning. He was wounded three times and has three purple hearts to show for it. He also has a bronze and a silver star. He is a war hero without question.

He's running against a man who was for the war in Vietnam but used his father's influence to avoid being sent there, scored the lowest score possible on the flight test and wasn't even allowed to fly because he refused to take a physical, and then deserted his unit for over a year to work for the campaign of a friend of his father's.

Does it feel good to be doing the work of the RNC?
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. Fighting Vietnamese is anti-Vietnam
And Kerry knew the war was wrong before he went off to fight in that war.

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K8-EEE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
4. I Can't See How Chimpy Can Even GO THERE....
The way I see it Kerry was brave fighting the war and then brave protesting it, and GWB was a big wimp....he "believed" in it enough to keep the TX border safe from Vietnamese, that is, when he showed up. How dare they criticize a combat vet?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
La_Serpiente Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I question the motivation of this post
and I do not think Kerry is ashamed of the cover of the book.
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JaneQPublic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. You're ducking the issue
My "motivation" doesn't matter worth a damn in our pursuit of electing a Democratic president.

However, my post does raise a very valid issue we need to confront: That the right-wingers (as exemplified by NewsMax) are not going to be halted for a minute by Kerry's war-hero status, when they can make such rich political hay from his war-protester status.
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Kamika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. That's kinda my point with this thread
I wanted to see what they would dig up and it does seem to be alot to find..

Don't think for a minute they will give a seconds thought about Kerrys war efforts in Vietnam they will just dig up the trash
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Confusing
Are the Repukes "digging up" stuff, or are they just "making it up"?

If thet are just making it up, and it seems that they are, then that shows how little there is to find. If there was stuff to dig up, they wouldn't spend time making stuff up.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Defecating on medals is typical of a "fish story"
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 11:37 AM by JVS
Throwing them back can be exaggerated into defacating on them.
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Sarge Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Kerry's association with Hanoi Jane
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 10:47 AM by Sarge
will not help him with alot of Vietnam Vets., they look at that with alot of anger because those Vets fighting still in Vietnam and POWs' were quite negatively affected by his stand with her.

My husband also was in the river boats and did two tours told me how most Vets feel about Hanoi Jane when she visited North Vietnam rubbing elbows with the enemy alot of POWs' were killed because of her presence and her saying what was mentioned from the POWS'...and alot of Vietnam Veterans feel she is looked upon as a real traitor and with Kerry's involvement with her won't help him in this campaign.

On Edit: This is Crewleader posting on Sarge's Computer.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #4
20. How dare they? See the link in post #1.
.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
26. Face the facts. They can and will go there.
Edited on Wed Jan-28-04 11:39 AM by JVS
and they are bold enough to pull it off.
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union_maid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
10. I don't think there was any defecating
As far as I'm concerned, Vietnam Vets Against the War were the war protesters that commanded the most respect, along with the Gold Star mothers. They'd been there, done it, seen it and came back determined to stop it. Kerry has always had my respect for what he did back then.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. See the link in post #1.
.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-28-04 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
28. He was a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War
the secretly recorded dialogue illustrates just how seriously Kerry was viewed by the Nixon White House. Some of these conversations have not been previously publicized, and Kerry said he had never heard them until they were provided by a reporter.

Day after day, according to the tapes and memos, Nixon aides worried that Kerry was a unique, charismatic leader who could undermine support for the war. Other veteran protesters were easier targets, with their long hair, their use of a Viet Cong flag, and in some cases, their calls for overthrowing the US government. Kerry, by contrast, was a neat, well-spoken, highly decorated veteran who seemed to be a clone of former President John F. Kennedy, right down to the military service on a patrol boat.

The White House feared him like no other protester.

<snip>

Some members of the antiwar group viewed Kerry as an opportunist. He hadn't testified during the Winter Soldier hearings, hadn't organized the group, yet now he was seeking to become the coordinator and spokesman. But plenty of veterans also realized Kerry - erudite and clean-cut - was the ideal foil for those who viewed the group as hippie traitors or even communists.

So Kerry became the face of the organization, and a media sensation.
With antiwar role, high visibility




EXCERPTS FROM JOHN KERRY'S TESTIMONY BEFORE THE SENATE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE, APRIL 22, 1971

...I am not here as John Kerry. I am here as one member of the group of 1,000 which is a small representation of a very much larger group of veterans in this country, and were it possible for all of them to sit at this table they would be here and have the same kind of testimony....

I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command....

They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

We call this investigation the "Winter Soldier Investigation." The term "Winter Soldier" is a play on words of Thomas Paine in 1776 when he spoke of the Sunshine Patriot and summertime soldiers who deserted at Valley Forge because the going was rough.

We who have come here to Washington have come here because we f eel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.


...In our opinion, and from our experience, there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart....

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever, but also we found that the Vietnamese whom we had enthusiastically molded after our own image were hard put to take up the fight against the threat we were supposedly saving them from.

We found most people didn't even know the difference between communism and democracy. They only wanted to work in rice paddies without helicopters strafing them and bombs with napalm burning their villages and tearing their country apart. They wanted everything to do with the war, particularly with this foreign presence of the United States of America, to leave them alone on peace, and they practiced the art of survival by siding with whichever military force was present at a particular time, be it Vietcong, North Vietnamese, or American.

We found also that all too often American men were dying in those rice paddies for want of support from their allies. We saw first hand how money from American taxes was used for a corrupt dictatorial regime. We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by our flag, as blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs as well as by search and destroy missions, as well as by Vietcong terrorism, and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.

We rationalized destroying villages in order to save them. We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum.

We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals.

We watched the U.S. falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. We fought using weapons against "oriental human beings," with quotation marks around that. We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater or let us say a non-third-world people theater, and so we watched while men charged up hills because a general said that hill has to be taken, and after losing one platoon or two platoons they marched away to leave the high for the reoccupation by the North Vietnamese because we watched pride allow the most unimportant of battles to be blown into extravaganzas, because we couldn't lose, and we couldn't retreat, and because it didn't matter how many American bodies were lost to prove that point. And so there were Hamburger Hills and Khe Sanhs and Hill 881's and Fire Base 6's and so many others.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese....

Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doen'st have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say they we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? But we are trying to do that, and we are doing it with thousands of rationalizations, and if you read carefully the President's last speech to the people of this country, you can see that he says and says clearly:

But the issue, gentlemen, the issue is communism, and the question is whether or not we will leave that country to the Communists or whether or not we will try to give it hope to be a free people.

But the point is they are not a free people now under us. They are not a free people, and we cannot fight communism all over the world, and I think we should have learned that lesson by now....

We are asking here in Washington for some action, action from the Congress of the United States of America which as the power to raise and maintain armies, and which by the Constitution also has the power to declare war.

We have come here, not to the President, because we believe that this body can be responsive to the will of the people, and we believe that the will of the people says that we should be out of Vietnam now....

We are also here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We are here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatric, and so many others. Where are they now that we, the men whom they sent off to war, have returned? These are commanders who have deserted their troops, and there is no more serious crime in the law of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded.

The Marines say they never leave even their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They have left the real stuff of their reputations bleaching begin them in the sun in this country....




...It is my opinion that the United States is still reacting in very much the 1945 mood and postwar cold-war period when we reacted to the forces which were at work in World War II and came out of it with this paranoia about the Russians and how the world was going to be divided up between the super powers, and the foreign policy of John Foster Dulles which was responsible for the created of the SEATO treaty, which was, in fact, a direct reaction to this so-called Communist monolith. And I think we are reacting under cold-war precepts which are no longer applicable.

I say that because so long as we have the kind of strike force we have, and I am not party to the secret statistics which you gentlemen have here, but as long as we have the ones which we of the public know we have, I think we have a strike force of such capability and I think we have a strike force simply in our Polaris submarines, in the 62 or some Polaris submarines, which are constantly roaming around under the sea. And I know as a Navy man that underwater detection is the hardest kind in the world, and they have not perfected it, that we have the ability to destroy the human race. Why do we have to, therefore, consider and keep considering threats?

At any time that an actual threat is posed to this country or to the security and freedom I will be one of the first people to pick up a gun and defend it, but right now we are reacting with paranoia t this question of peace and the people taking over the world. I think if were are ever going to get down to the question of dropping those bombs most of us in my generation simply don't want to be alive afterwards because of the kind of world that it would be with mutations and the genetic probabilities of freaks and everything else.

Therefore, I think it is ridiculous to assume we have to play this power game based on total warfare. I think there will be guerrilla wars and I think we must have a capability to fight those. And we may have to fight them somewhere based on legitimate threats, but we must learn, in this country, how to define those threats and that is what I would say to the question of world peace. I think it is bogus, totally artificial. There is no threat. The Communists are not about to take over our McDonald hamburger stands....


...I don't want to get into the game of saying I represent everybody over there, but let me try to say as straightforwardly as I can, we had an advertisement, ran full page, to show you what the troops read. It ran in Playboy and the response to it within two and a half weeks from Vietnam was 1,200 members. We received initially about 50 to 80 letters a day from troops arriving at our New York office. Some of these letters -- and I wanted to bring some down, I didn't know we were going to be testifying here and I can make them available to you -- are very, very moving, some of them written by hospital corpsmen on things, on casualty report sheets which say, you know, "Get us out of here." "You are the only hope he have got." "You have got to get us back; it is crazy." We received recently 80 members of the 101st Airborne signed up in one letter. Forty members from a helicopter assault squadron, crash and rescue mission signed up in another one.

I think they are expressing, some of these troops, solidarity with us, right now by wearing black arm bands and Vietnam Veterans Against the War buttons. They want to come out and I think they are looking at the people who want to try to get them out as a help.

However, I do recognize there are some men who are in the military for life. The job in the military is to fight wars. When they have a war to fight, they are just as happy in a sense, and I am sure that these men feel they are being stabbed in the back. But, at the same time, I think to most of them the realization of the emptiness, the hollowness, the absurdity of Vietnam has finally hit home, and I feel is they did come home the recrimination would certainly not come from the right, from the military. I don't think there would be that problem....



...You see the mind is changing over there and a search and destroy mission is a search and avoid mission, and troops don't -- you know, like that revolt that took place that was mentioned in the New York Times when they refused to go in after a piece of dead machinery, because it doesn't have any value. They are making their own judgments.

There is a GI movement in this country now as well as over there, and soon these people, these men, who are prescribing wars for these young men to fight are going to find out they are going to have to find some other men to fight them because we are going to change prescriptions. They are going to have to change doctors, because we are not going to fight for them. that is what they are going to realize. There is now a more militant attitude even within the military itself....

John Kerry, 4/22/71


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