Why are enthusiasm and ideals always dismissed as "cultlike"?

[Armstead]

I have come around to considering myself a Dean supporter. Frankly the more I see him and learn of him, the more enthusiastic I get.
But I also see his flaws, and if someone else is nominated I'll support them.

But this dismissive attitude towards Dean and his supporters is really getting obnoxious, for reasons that go far beyond that particular candidate....Same things has been done to Kucinich supporters, and before that the Greens and even those who dared to defend Ralph's right to run in 2000.

Most people of the liberal persuasion bitch and moan about how politics as usual has corrupted the system, how the corporations and right wing have taken over the country, we don;t have a voice....blah, blah,blah, whine whine,whine.

But whenever people at the grasstroots get enthusiastic about a candidate or cause it's time for the Big Smackdown. It's a combination of "You're so naive. Get real." and extends to dismissive descriptions of these supporers as a "cult" or a bunch of brainwashed nincompoops.

It's one thing to have differences and to try and be pragmatic.That's necssary too. But it's the attitudes that are the problem.

What is so irtonic here is that many liberals and progressives originally supported Dean as a pragmatic compromise. I personally agree more with Kucinich, but I'm trying to look at it practically. But I will never berate those who stick with him as being a cult or attack them for supporting their principles.

And Dean hiself is accused of being shifty and deceptive everytime he open his mouth. I'm well aware that he is a politician, and wil;l say things he hopes will get him elected. Duh. But he also is different, because he talks more like a real person than most politicians. He doesn;t "vet" everything he says, so sometimes he puts his foot in it. Or he might shade the truth. But overall, he seems to be more honest than most of them. Often his "misstatments" are the result of being TOO straightforward. And sometimes they are part of more complicated statements taken out of contest.

Have we reached the point where actual human speech and thought process are no longer suitable in politics. Does every statement have to be approved by a PR consultant?

It makes me sick.

Sure some of the Dean people go over the top, and can be arrogent or obnixious too. But the criticisms of Dean and his campaign and supporters goes way over the top. You'd think they were the Moonies or something from the way they get described...Same thing happens to Greens and even those who supported Nader's right to run in 2000.

Face it folks, if we become hidebound reactionaries everytime something that doesn't fit the exact mold of status-quo politics as usual comes along, we're never going to get anything different.

Merry Christmas.

[demnan]

1. And a Merry Christmas to you . . .

thanks for your post.

[ibegurpard]

2. Oh, Armstead!

It's the primaries. Get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat. Toughen up. We need to vet our nominee. We'll all come together once we decide on a nominee.

Have I left anything out?

[Armstead]

4. "You're just like the Greens"

And "the point is to win, not make a point."

[Atlant]

3. As the lawyers say...

"When the facts are on your side, argue the facts."
"When the facts aren't on your side, argue the law."
"When the law isn't on your side, argue the personalities."

They're arguing the personalities, aren't they? :-)

Atlant

[sandnsea]

5. Bush-lite insider cockroaches???

Who's arguing personalities???

[Armstead]

6. He started out arguing ideas

He ran against the Washington insiders, and the pink-tutu mentality of the Beltway Democrats. The reason he caught on is because that was articulating the frustration that many people feel, and he was also articulating the goal that we have to start standing up. And his cockroach remark is more a metaphor for the system, not an attack on a person.

That's a view that many have. And arguing with that is fine. But that's different than branding his supporters as weird fringies who don't have a clue about how the real works.

He started swinging back when the DLC and otehr insiders went after him personally, and dismissed his supporters as "out of touch leftists" for daring to challenge the Iraq War.

[Atlant]

13. RE: "Why are enthusiasm and ideals always dismissed as "cultlike"?"

I was answering the question posed in the title of this thread.

Why are (Dean) supporters called cultlike?

Well, if one can't use facts against us, and one can't use politics
(our metaphor's equivalent of "the law"), then one is reduced to
arguing that we (or our candidate) have BO or some such, alerting
our posts in the hopes of getting us banned, and the like. And we've
seen all that and more recently.

Atlant

[Scott Lee]

40. Saying it like it is hurts some ears - but doesn't make it less true.

This is the part of the Dean campaign that several still don't get. It's about upsetting the mold of Democratic power which has not only lost touch with the people it was supposed to represent, but in actuality aids the opposition in much of their agenda.

It is this crap that I hope Dean can stop, and one of the main reasons I support him.

[Iverson]

7. one possibility

Some people tend to be incredibly invested in being right all of the time. This results in maneuvers including these: a need to dismiss groups of others so that their opinions and arguments are not considered; a need to define one's own preferences as "realistic" or "pragmatic" so that those who disagree are encoded as unrealistic, and so on.

Unfortunately, legitimizing the playground model of political discourse comes back to bite all of us in the ass when the ruthless right wing demonstrates how it's really done. The need to be right all of the time kicks in again, and selective blindness stops the faux-realists from changing behavior or outlook.

Now get real, and agree with me uncritically.

Cheers.:toast:

[Armstead]

8. I think you're right

Once people get inveted in something, they see that as the real "center" and anything to either side of that is wrong.

Too bad we can't all be more flexible.

[chimpymustgo]

18. Well you have answered your own question.

But after hundreds of posts from Dean supporters saying,
"If you don't support him, you just don't GET it", or
"if you don't support him, you're a rethug", or
"every time somebody criticizes Dean, I just send more money" , or
"Dean didn't flip flop, he EVOLVED" or
"so what if Dean sealed his records, Bush did too", or
"Dean WILL be the nominee, so DEAL with it /get over it/ take that!"

And you know, I could go on and on and on.

[CWebster]

9. Leave it to Armstead

to be the enduring bright light among the dim bulbs.

It is kind of sad. Haven't been around DU much for the last couple of days, but when I logged on today, I see the anti-Dean trend accelerating. Dean, who came out of nowhere and fired-up the disheartened Democratic base, offering hope, renewed pride and fearless challenge. And what does it all add up to? Bitter sour grapes and a destructive agenda from the other camps that would rather destroy Democratic party future hopes than see Dean shift the status quo...can't have a Democratic party that doesn't follow the republican game plan...

And a happy New Year.

[Armstead]

10. That's it

>>>Dean, who came out of nowhere and fired-up the disheartened Democratic base, offering hope, renewed pride and fearless challenge....<<<

You could modify that to "(fill in the blank) who came out of nowhere and fired-up the disheartened Democratic base, offering hope, renewed pride and fearless challenge...." unfortunately.

It seems like any politician or political movement who fires people up outside of the status quo (even if it's a slight deviation) gets jumped on by their supposed "allies" as much as the real opposition.

Dean is slightly different. Therefore he is reckless. That seems to be the logic of too many on the non-conservative side.

[maxanne]

33. right on

CWebster. We will shoot ourselves in the foot. The right wing won't even have to destroy us - we're busily doing it for them.

Thank you Armstead. You articulated my feelings better than I've been able to.

[Mairead]

11. I would have hoped you would look at policies, not glitz

His policies are all status-quo-with-tweaks. He's Bush Lite.

This is not something I'm making up or reading in--you can judge for yourself by looking at his website. It's all there in black-and-white.

Surely we deserve better than Bush Lite? I hope it's beyond question that we need better!

[Armstead]

12. Maired, this is not aimed at the supporters of otehrs like you

I can see your point, and agree that Dean is not breaking the mold totally.

However, that is different than the larger issue of whethr any candidate -- even a relatively modrate one -- is allowed to deviate in the slightest from the same game that got us into this mess.

[Mairead]

29. "Dean is not breaking the mold totally"

I think my point is that there's less to Dean than currently meets your eye. It's not a matter of him missing some high standard by a minor amount, it's that when you look at his policy statements, he misses even a moderate standard by a large amount.

It's not that he's 'not breaking the mold totally', it's that he has no plans to break it at all.

Honestly! I'm not making this up. Look at his policy statements. There's no 'there' there. Try to find something.

[CWebster]

31. Like this?

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1219-12.htm

[Mairead]

34. Find it in his policies. I couldn't.

[SahaleArm]

45. Ask Miss Van 'Dean' Heuvel to post the rest the conversation...

And you'll some major league fence sitting.

[CWebster]

17. the whole picture...

Dean's assets offset his negatives while garnering a broader audience. It is a compromise I can live with to shift the political playing field. Rome wasn't built in a day. The Republican agenda and mind frame rules the hour. Look at the militarism the Left embraces as convention and the resistance in the increasingly conservative Democratic establishment to progressive views. Not exactly the ideal climate for the died-in-the-wool progressive on the national stage to even get their foot in the door, not to mention their voice heard..

[Padraig18]

14. Because marginalizing a group is easier than debating them.

Short answer.

[vi5]

15. I think anything so focused on one individual is cult like...

I don't care what it is. But rabid enthusiasm for any one individual just strikes me as weird and cult-like.

[Armstead]

16. I suppose it depends on how you define rabid..

As I said at the top, this is not just about Dean. What's been happening reflects a pattern that always seems to happen,. not matter who the particular individual is.

As for focused on one individual, there's certain truth in that. But we have a slate of people who each represent a package of things. I'm nor sure where the line between honest enthusiasm and investing too much in that person

[TLM]

19. Simple... it is called sour grapes.

Old rule in politics... the the other guy can do something that you can't, then spin that thing as something bad.

[KittyWampus]

20. Dean Is Not Running On His Record In Vermont

He totally repackaged himself upon entering the race.

He is a center RIGHT politician who was part of the DLC's movement which you and many others Liberals have bitched about and decried.

When did Dean publically reject his participation in The DLC?

When did Dean apologise for his Center Right policies and slams on the LIBERALS in Congress?

Don't you see the irony in so many LIBERALS who've slammed the DLC now supporting a DLC Center RIGHT politician like Dean?

Sorry, but for Liberals to support Dean requires some serious denial and/or cognitive dissonance.

Further, many Dean supporters point to Dean's campaign/fundraising rather than his actual record as Governor or Dean himself. This supports the notion that his supporters are following the heat rather than seeking the Light.

Dean himself says the "Election isn't about Me it's about YOU".

Sorry, but this is a Representative Democracy... A REPUBLIC. And this Election is most certainly about WHO WE PUT IN OFFICE.

Some of us haven't fallen for the Bromides that Dean, the Snakeoil Salesman, are selling.

Dean is not going to change a thing... just install his own chosen cronies. What Dean is selling is impotent sugar water wrapped up in a package to make it's users BELIEVE they've taken something that is truely effective.

In fact, Dean CAN'T change anything because he has no Military Service or Foreign Policy credentials which would enbable him to cut Pentagon Funding.

The only way the Economic and Societal changes are going to happen are if we take money away from the MIC.

You and others have talked about the PNAC crowd and yet support Dean who is powerless against them.

Why won't Dean cut Pentagon Funding?

Why do you support a candidate who would rather take back a Middle Class Tax Cut rather than hinder the growth of the Military Industrial complex?

[Armstead]

21. Dean's past is an open book

His policies and behavior are not some deep dark secret. Despite the sealed records brouhaha, anyone who wishes to can read Vermont journalism or talk to Vermont people.

As for the rest, we all have to make a choice. In fact your arguments prove my point. Dean really is basically a centrist modrate. Dean offered something different, but which is close enough to the center to be sellable. And he's the kind of dogged pitbull Democrats need right now.

You can have a different opinion, which is fine. But my point was about how everytime someone deviates from the DLC norm, and articulates the issues that have been swept under the carpet, tey get put into a corner of weirdness.

[KittyWampus]

26. Affirmative Action Based On Class Is NOT Centrist Moderate

it is center RIGHT.

Limiting a Patient's right to sue an HMO is center RIGHT not moderate.

Please tell me where Dean denounces his own participation in the efforts of the DLC to move the Democrats to the Right?

The only way Dean has deviated from his DLC past is to use novel fundraising/campaign techniques... of course he sprinkles some Leftist code words into his speech and attacks other established Liberal candidates as Bush-Lite.

But then, his supporters say "Dean's a Centrist with a Centrist Record".... glossing over the parts of his record that plant him firmly to the RIGHT of center... especially for a Democrat.

So it seems to me that Dean's an ex governor with a DLC, Center Right Record who now espouses Center Moderate Policies but uses Leftist rhetoric and attacks on others to appear even more Left than he really is?

Again, looking at his actual policies... they're not even all that Liberal/Leftist really. And his Issues Page is really very vague and not too detailed as compared to say Clark's or Kerry's.

So let me break that down regarding the various Realities that are Howard Dean:

Center Right Record as Governor
Center Moderate Policies as Presidential Candidate
Leftist Rhetoric as Presidential Candidate

Then factor in Dean's campaign that heavily pushes the notion that the Election isn't about HIM and HIS QUALIFICATIONS but about the Electorate.

IMO, we need to do some gear shifting in the US> We can't afford to allow the black hole that is Defense Spending to continue sucking down our creative force.

No real SYSTEMIC changes will happen... and they NEED to happen for our survival... until the Military/Congressional Induxtial complex is changed.

Dean cannot do what needs to be done. He would be labeled "Weak on Defense" and at the mercy of dueling Advisors and the PNAC remnants in the Pentagon.

[Armstead]

28. And Clark isn't?

Look, I know your point. I personally think you are being misguided if you believe what you say to support Clark. He is the military industrial complex, he has bought into the Wall St. Corproate mentality of DLC Clintonomics, and is supported by the same crowd.

Fine you think othrwise, and that's an honest subject of debate.

IMO, Dean has not waffled about his record or his positions. He said his supporters would agree with some of what he does, and disagree with otehrs. He's correct. I do and I don't.

But he also, I believe, sincerely had his eyes opened during his campaigning. He said as much. he said that going out to Iowa and New Hampshire, he found a wellspring of anger and frustration at the degree to which corporate power has been consolidated, and how people feel they have been shut out of the process by both parties.

I will take him at his word, while keeping my eyes fully open that he is a politician.

But my broader points is that he has brought a different "message" based on grasssroots realities that the Democratic establishment has refused to acknowledge.

And in returnb, he is called a wacky leftist by one side and a hiodebound conservative by the otehr. Which to me indicates that maybe he really is in the center, in a positive sense.

[CWebster]

25. It is useless

Dean stated that the DLC has had some good ideas in the past but they have moved too far to the Right. Yes he was a moderate Governor and is a centrist Democrat. The areas in which he is moderate are acceptable to me in these times. He is frugal and practical, he is a sensible man, but not without goals of a more progressive agenda. He has a record of accomplishing some controversial objectives in the tradition of building a better country for all instead of just catering to the aristocracy. He takes risks, while maintaining broad appeal.
Whoever wins the nomination will have to face off against Bush and should they beat Bush, they will inherit the unenvied task of cleaning up a mountain of a mess. Dean is a good bet to tackle the task. Any other choice is a greater risk to the party and country.

[denverbill]

22. I'm beginning to think it's about more than just Dean.

Well, not beginning I guess. I've thought that for a while now.

For years and years, it's been the insiders and power-brokers who have controlled the party, and us 'outsiders' have been left to accept or reject the party's selection. It's been that way because it was the insiders who raised the millions needed to run a campaign.

The internet is beginning to change that. For the first time, millions of ordinary Americans a contributing money to a Democratic Presidential campaign. Thousands of professors, programmers, teachers, secretaries, and other just plain folks have decided that enough is enough, and politics as usual will just not cut it anymore.

The insiders don't like yielding their power and influence, and they are fighting back harder than any of them fought to get Gore elected in 2000.

Between the insider back-biting and the sleeper-freepers, DU is going to be a mess for the next 3-9 months. Once a candidate has been chosen, or at least once a few candidates drop out, things should get better rapidly.

[Armstead]

24. It's about a lot more than Dean

That's my point. This always happens. Instead of channeling the enthusiasm, of the libeal and progressive "base," the Beltway Bunch pushes them away. It could be represented by Howard Dean or Ghandi, it wouldn't matter.

[LizW]

23. It's easy

It's a lazy way to try to get people to shut up without addressing the real issues and validity of their cause.

Belittle, dismiss, label, villify, miscast, misrepresent and demean. These are all the weapons of those who are too lazy or uninformed to argue on the issues.

[Castilleja]

27. That's a good post, Armstead.

Good points made, thanks!

[Upfront]

30. Agree Good Post

All the stuff they through at Dean just makes his supporters more determined. It gets funny after awhile. Examples would be wheather he offered Clark the VP or not. Now, they say, he inplyed his brother was in the military. I know his brother was given a military funeral and it was out there that he may have been CIA. Maybe B### could out him also. Much good postive stuff in support of some good candidates appears on this forum and it is educational. Wish we could see more of it and less of the phony stuff. Hope Dean raises the bat for the holidays. Go Dean!

[TexasSissy]

32. They're not always considered that way.

And that's part of the problem: Dean's supporters quite often see things in black and white, like Baby Bush does. You're either with him or against him. It's "always" this and "always" that, or "never" this or "never" that. Dean never flubs answers to questions. Dean has never done anything morally wrong. Even though Dean admits he was seeking deferment in the military, you will still find posts in this forum stating that Dean would definitely not seek deferment, in total contravention of the facts that are both obvious and admitted to. If anyone criticizes Dean, they are "attacking" him. When Dean criticizes other candidates, he's not "attacking." If you don't like Dean, then by definition, you hate him, it seems.

It seems very cult-like to me.

When I read posts by supporters of other candidates, they are more apt to recognize their candidates' weaknesses. All the candidates have weaknesses, including Dean. Other supporters are more apt to admit that their candidate screwed up an answer to a question. They all screw up answers to questions, including Dean. Posts by supporters of other candidates are also more apt to recognize the good qualities in some of the other candidates. Kucinich supporters also like, say, Kerry. Kerry supporters also like, say, Gephardt. Dean supporters are, for the most part, Dean supporters. You're either for him, or you're against him. No compromise.

Dean is not a cult leader, of course. But the whole thing just reminds me of a David Koresh or Jim Jones movement. The leader is represented to be perfect, cut from a different cloth than the other supposed leaders. And no one better criticize him, for he has all the answers.

Note the initial post to which this post is a response. Look at it carefully for any admission of any fault of Dean or his supporters. Look hard. Then look hard at posts of supporters of other candidates. You will notice a lacking of any admission of fault on Dean's part, or if there is a minor infraction of some rule, then it's someone else's fault. I applaud faithfulness and devotion. But blind trust is not a good sign, in my eyes.

[CWebster]

35. You must be projecting

because Armstead's post and subsequent comments say nothing of the sort. In fact his commentary is the polar opposite.

Can't tell you how many times I've stated Dean isn't perfect or how many times Armstead has acknowledged that he agrees with Dean sometimes and on some things but not all the time. Even Dean states that his supporters may not agree with all of his positions. You would be hard pressed to find one Dean supporter who entertains any illusions about where he stands on the political spectrum. Therefore you invent some slur instead.

[chimpymustgo]

37. Isn't it striking how Dean supporters see this one way

and supporters of the other candidates see it another way?

Hmmmmm.....

[ibegurpard]

39. No, chimpy, what's striking

is your inability to see within yourself the very things you decry in others.

[chimpymustgo]

43. Back at you.

nt

[Scott Lee]

46. Meaning....?

[Terwilliger]

36. you're just noticing this?

Since I've been "worshipping at the altar of Nader" for so long, I see just how narrowly people end-up viewing things that they don't agree with.

"Dean supporter? You might as well hand the keys to Rove." :eyes:

OnEdit: narrow -> narrowly

[Iverson]

38. now hold on!

If you don't agree with me 100%, you're turning the country over to Bush and the fascists. Stop demanding 100% of what you want, and obey me right now!!! :think:

Drink my brand of coffee :donut: or else the terrorists/Republicans/insurance agents have won!

[Armstead]

41. Not just noticing this

REad the original post. I said that this is a pattern.

What's ridiculous now is that Dean is basically a tradional politician, who has a somewhat different message and strategy. Bit he's not some wild eyed lefty.

And many of his supporters are trying to "compromise and be realistic." And what do they get in return? Branded as loony followers of some cult Communist.

[JVS]

42. I like Dean because I think he's the best compromise we'll get

If Kucinich becomes competitive I'll pick him over Dean. I like to describe this way: He may be standing to my right, but at least he's facing toward me.

[Iverson]

44. loony followers of some cult Communist?

I don't agree that you're a loony.

;-)

[Forkboy]

47. My father always calls me "too idealistic"

At 36 years old I've still haven't seen what's so bad about this :shrug: