My civil liberties are important to me

[pnziii]

Why is John Kerry voting against them? Personally I find H.R. 3103 and wire-tapping very disturbing. Why would Kerry vote for these?

Senate Vote on Welfare Reform H.R. 3734
House and Senate approved legislation that preyed on the limited rights of vulnerable groups including children, immigrants, the poor and the elderly in the name of welfare reform. The bill also eroded free speech for not-for-profit organizations, violated the separation of church and state, and damaged privacy rights by establishing a de facto national identification system.
Sen John Kerry voted for this Santorum & Ashcroft...

-------------------

Senate Vote on Government Funding of Religious Institutions S. 1956
Government Funding of Religious Institutions - Included was a provision that could force state governments, under threat of lawsuits, to contract with religious institutions, including houses of worship, to provide taxpayer-funded social services, even if they are delivered in a proselytizing environment. This, too, was a recurring theme in the 104th Congress where opponents
of religious liberty repeatedly sought to pass provisions to lower the wall of separation between church and state.
Kerry voted against ACLU along with Santorum & Ashcroft...

--------------

How the Senate voted on Internet Censorship S.652
Internet Censorship - As part of a major overhaul of the nation's telecommunications industries, both the House and Senate approved major new censorship schemes for the Internet.
Kerry voted for this Even LIEberman voting only 28% w/ ACLU voted against this...

--------------

Senate Vote on Campaign Finance Reform S. 1219
Campaign Finance Reform - In a sign of widespread disillusion with the political process, both the House and Senate considered versions of campaign finance reform that the ACLU believed to be unconstitutional infringements of free speech provisions of the First Amendment.
Kerry and LIEberman voted against the First amendment... Even Ashcroft and Santorum voted for the 1st...

-------------

Senate Vote on Medical Privacy H.R 3103
Medical privacy - Hidden within the massive health care reform bill approved by Congress in the stampede for an August recess was a deceptively labeled provision that further eroded the privacy rights of all Americans. The provision, known as "administrative simplification," gives government and businesses access to
confidential medical information about individuals without their consent and establishes a unique health identification number for every patient, health provider, health plan and employer.
Kerry, LIEberman, Ashcroft, Santorum and many others voted against Medical Privacy...

--------------

Senate Vote on Immigration Legislation H.R. 2202
Immigration - Seeking to capitalize on a wave of anti-immigration initiatives, both the House and Senate passed bills that represented the most draconian and divisive immigration proposals in decades. Included were provisions that would strip the courts of jurisdiction over illegal and abusive INS actions and erect enormous and virtually insurmountable barriers for most people seeking political
asylum. The House even approved a bill that would have effectively denied public education to American citizen children of undocumented immigrants.
Kerry, LIEberman, Ashcroft, Santorum and many others voted for this...

-------------

Senate Vote on National ID Cards S. 1664
National ID Card - One of the most pervasive themes of the 104th Congress has been proposals to establish a national identification system as a means of tracking undocumented workers, so-called deadbeat dads and to monitor health insurance information. Various database schemes have been included in bills as diverse as
immigration, welfare reform and health insurance. Since these proposals have been buried in much larger legislation, it was often difficult to determine the position of members of Congress.
The ACLU Urged a Vote Against National ID Cards
Kerry voted FOR this... Even LIEberman, Ashcroft, Lott and Santorum were against this...

--------------

Senate Vote on Wiretapping
Wiretapping - Although the interception of innocent conversations in federal law enforcement wiretaps is already at record levels, Congress has been repeatedly asked to give the FBI even greater authority to wiretap. Proposals have ranged from providing $500 million to the nation's phone companies to finance a retrofit of their systems to make it easier for the FBI to wiretap to permitting law enforcement agencies to use more "roving" wiretaps (without specifying which phone is to be tapped), and more "emergency" wiretaps (without obtaining a prior court order).
Kerry voted FOR Wiretapping with LIEberman and his other buddy Santorum...

------------

How the Senate Voted on Counter-Terrorism S. 735
Counter-terrorism - The bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building lifted from obscurity a Clinton Administration proposal to increase the powers of law enforcement in the name of fighting terrorism. The measure gave the government the power to use secret evidence to deport immigrants it accuses of being "terrorists" and to exclude aliens merely because they are members of a disfavored foreign group.
Kerry voted FOR this with LIEberman, Ashcroft and Santorum...

[teevee99]

1. John Kerry has voted against the ACLU's

reccommendations so many times, it's a pretty scary thing to think what would happen if he were prez.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

3. Highest score so far this year is the most reviled candidate on DU

Joe Lieberman:

https://ssl.capwiz.com/aclu/scorecard/?chamber=S&session=108&x=6&y=14

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. ACLU on Kerry

http://www.vote-smart.org/issue_rating_category.php?can_id=S0421103#Civil+Liberties

ACLU Scorecard: https://ssl.capwiz.com/aclu/bio/?id=298&congress=1081&lvl=C

[bigtree]

13. looks like 14 favorable and 5 unfavorable

to the ACLU

[George_Bonanza]

9. The ACLU are a picky bunch

In the 01-02 year, Kucinich was rated at 64%. Kerry at 60%. Oh the fascists!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. While I give money to the ACLU I certainly don't agree with their

every position..especially where it concerns cross burning and the KKK.....color me unpure

[Walt Starr]

24. I believe the ACLU is 100% consistent in their stances

which is why I support the ACLU over any politician.

[David Zephyr]

2. Apparently, These Are Insignificant Points, Pnziii Compared to Winning.

Thank you for your post. It seems that you are part of an ever shrinking minority here that is concened about such things.

Haven't you received your "lecture" that mentioning these things is "untidy", maybe even unpatriotic?

Haven't you been issued your party hat and whistle and given your numbered location in the parade?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. David I love you and adore you but that is NOT my position on Kerry

My position is that he has COMMITTED to clean up legislation to restore those areas outside of the constitution. By your own estimates then, you must hate all senators but for one. Is that correct?

Dean certainly can't think too much of you...he supported a worse proposal than the PATRIOT act just DAYS after 9/11 and for being such an honest politician...why are his gubernatorial records kept under wraps? Is that open government? Is that democracy?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

11. Wow, nsma starts becoming an advocate

now I know we have momentum for real.

[blm]

14. nsma is more an advocate for truth...

if she thought Dean or anyone was being misrepresented she would speak up.

To be corny, she's like Superman - Truth, Justice and all that.

[David Zephyr]

23. Kerry's Crowd Is Foolishly Glossing Over the Contempt Felt For The P.A.

[blm]

26. And yet Dean SUGGESTED a Patriot Act days after 9-11.

And why don't his Bushlike statements then bother you?

Why doesn't his agreement with Bush on TIPS bother you?

[Iverson]

This is not a Dean vs. Kerry issue.

It's not even a Ralph Nader vs. All Good People issue.
Civil liberties are basic. We are also living in a period of amazing attacks upon them, most of which pass without comment.

Agreeing in principle with those attacks on civil liberties, but positing some technical opposition, means continuing to lose ground.

"Dammit, Carl, you've built the wrong kind of bonfire upon which to burn the Constitution."

:mad:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

30. We are trying to choose a nominee

Who do you support? Why are they better or worse than Kerry or Dean on civil liberties?


And as a follow-up, wouldn't any of our nominees be a thousand times better than Bush on this issue?

[Iverson]

31. Sometimes ideas transcend personalities.

But thanks for the break.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Dean's comments on civil liberties cause alarm

Gov. Howard Dean's call for a “re-evaluation” of some of America's civil liberties following this week's terrorist attacks was criticised Thursday by a Vermont Law School professor.

“Good God,” Vermont Law School Professor Michael Mello said when read the remarks Dean made at a Wednesday news conference. “It's terribly irresponsible for the leader of our state to be saying stuff like that right now.”

Benson Scotch, the head of the Vermont chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union, said it was simply too soon after the attacks to engage in the sort of debates Dean called for.

Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said: “I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

How about you? Do YOU think we should have a debate about trimming the Bill of Rights?

[blm]

6. WOW...you must be FURIOUS with Dean's record then.

In fact, Lieberman is much more liberal than Dean on civil liberty issues.
Dean thinks war on drugs should be "intensified"?????? WTF?

What issues is Dean to the LEFT of Lieberman?

http://www.talkleft.com/archives/003739.html
……He once addressed a meeting of defense attorneys by stating that "my job is to make your job as difficult as possible." He is a man of his word, at least on this campaign promise. He did not want to fund public defense.
……Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.
http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
Dean, in 1999, wanted to refuse a $150,000 federal grant to the public defender's office for aiding mentally disabled defendants. "That was unusual, to say the least," says Appel. The state legislature overrode Dean's opposition. Dean spokesman Carson responded that Dean didn't want to create a program that the state couldn't afford to fund if federal money disappeared in the future. But he did not disavow Dean's anti-defendant bent. "This is a governor who was tough on crime and is a big believer in victims' rights," Carson says.
(Note:The state legislature overrode Dean's opposition and forced him to take it.)
Source: http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1
Dean: “I got life without parole through our legislature. The problems with life without parole is that it’s not life without parole. There are always people who get out.”
http://richmond.indymedia.org/newswire/display/4371/index.php
.. “I’m looking to make it easier to convict guilty people and not have as many technicalities interfere with justice, and I’ll appoint someone to fit that bill”.
Asked if that reflected a “get-tough-on-crime” approach, Dean responded: “I’m looking for someone who is for justice. My beef about the judicial system is that it does not emphasize truth and justice over lawyering. It emphasizes legal technicalities and rights of the defendants and all that.” Such comments may play well with the general public, but they have sent a chill through the collective spine of lawyers – particularly defense lawyers – around the state.
http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
He attempted an explanation of his support for capital punishment, even while agreeing that in some cases "the wrong guy" might be executed…. ...he thought the death penalty was preferable in some instances to a sentence of life without parole, Dean noted that in some instances criminals who are locked up for life might be freed on a legal "technicality" only to commit more horrible crimes. "That is every bit as heinous as putting to death someone who didn't commit the crime," he said.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1907-2003Jul2?language=printer
William Cohen: …..In all my years writing about the death penalty, I have never heard any politician admit that he would countenance the death of an innocent person in order to ensure that the guilty die. Dean is maybe the first to acknowledge the unacknowledgeable. For that, I suppose, he ought to be congratulated. But by equating the murder of one individual by another with the murder of an innocent person by the government -- the unpreventable with the preventable -- he has casually trashed several hundred years of legal safeguards.
http://www.vpr.net/vt_news/stories/sharedlegacy/shared3.shtml
Vermont Public Radio, Bob Kinzel: "It's likely that Howard Dean's tenure in office will also have a long term effect on the state's criminal justice system. In his first years as Governor, Dean was often critical of judges who Dean thought did not hand down tough enough sentences. Over the last 10 years, Dean has appointed more judges than any previous governor and Dean describes his appointees as "law and order" judges. Dean's judicial philosophy appears to be having a significant impact - during his tenure as governor the average sentence handed down in Vermont has doubled - a situation that has led to an overcrowding of the state's prison system."
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles8/Bister-Estrin-Jacobs_Dean.htm
His governorship was a campaign against reasonable approaches to substance abuse. ….. the only other option in his bag of tricks is tougher penalties. He has endorsed fully the National Governors Association's policy, which calls for increased involvement of law enforcement and disavows any form of legalization not only as a policy but also as a philosophy. In short, Dean not only believes in the war on drug users, but also would like to see it intensified.
…..While Dean vocalized his opposition to methadone treatment clinics and decried any efforts to reduce the penalties on marijuana use -- even labeling the latter as a gateway drug (a statistically questionable claim at best) -- the population of Vermont's prisons increased to potentially dangerous levels. There is a correlation between these two phenomena. The more police go after individuals who use drugs, and the more judges are instructed to put them in jail, the more prisoners there are. ……. according to the DEA, the number of drug arrests in Vermont increased under Dean's watch, peaking in the year 2001, with the imprisonment of women increasing by over 140%.
http://rogueimc.org/2003/11/1757.shtml
Robert Appel, former head of the state's public defender system, said he had constant clashes with Dean over funding for the service. According to Appel, Dean said on at least one public occasion that the state should spend less money providing the accused with legal representation, saying that "95% of criminal defendants are guilty anyway." He later claimed that he was kidding.
http://www.loper.org/~george/archives/2003/Aug/946.html
(He appointed) state judges who were willing to undermine the Bill of Rights. In a 1997 interview with the Vermont News Bureau, Howard Dean admitted his desire to expedite the judicial process by using such justices to 'quickly convict guilty criminals.' He wanted individuals that would deem 'common sense more important than legal technicalities.' Constitutional protections (legal technicalities) apparently undermine Dean's yearning for speedy trials. 
 

[blm]

10. And THIS must REALLY make you angry with Dean....

Dean's comments on civil liberties cause alarm

http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html

"...Dean said Wednesday he believed that the attacks and their aftermath would “require a re-evaluation of the importance of some of our specific civil liberties. I think there are going to be debates about what can be said where, what can be printed where, what kind of freedom of movement people have and whether it's OK for a policeman to ask for your ID just because you're walking down the street.”

Dean said he had not taken a position on these questions. Asked whether he meant that specific rights described in the Bill of Rights — the first 10 amendments to the U.S. Constitution — would have to be trimmed, the governor said:
“I haven't gotten that far yet. I think that's unlikely, but I frankly haven't gotten that far. Again, I think that's a debate that we will have.”

Mello said Thursday, “the civil liberties Dean seems to be talking about so blithely, that's exactly what makes us different from the murderers who committed these acts.

“It's why they attacked us,” he continued. “I think our freedom is what they find so threatening, our freedom and the power that I think results directly from that freedom.” "
>>>>>>>>
"They hate us for our freedoms" sound familiar?

[blm]

16. No reply? Come on, I KNOW how important your civil liberties are to you.

You just said so in your post.

[NNN0LHI]

18. I don't think we want to talk about civil liberties any more?

:shrug:

[blm]

20. Gee. Guess his civil liberties aren't as important as he said.

.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

32. come on, pnziii...no reply?

I believed you when you said your civil liberties were important to you. That's why I am warning you about the REAL Howard Dean.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

8. Justice not blind in Dean's Vermont

Dean chose not to reappoint Appel for a third four-year term as defender general, the state official who heads the state’s public defender program. In appointing Valerio, of Proctor, the new defender general, Dean had kind words for Appel. But Appel had clashed with Dean on numerous occasions in his efforts to secure for his office the resources necessary to fulfill his duties conscientiously.

Just two years ago Dean tried to prevent Appel from accepting a $150,000 federal grant aimed at assisting defendants with mental disabilities. For Dean to block a government agency from receiving federal money was unusual in itself. But Dean’s openly expressed bias against criminal defendants provided a partial explanation.

Dean has made no secret of his belief that the justice system gives all the breaks to defendants. Consequently, during the 1990s, state’s attorneys, police, and corrections all received budget increases vastly exceeding increases enjoyed by the defender general’s office. That meant the state’s attorneys were able to round up ever increasing numbers of criminal defendants, but the public defenders were not given comparable resources to respond.

The problem with giving a disproportionate share of state resources to prosecution and enforcement is that it throws the justice system out of kilter. A just result occurs in court only when the prosecution and defense both are ably represented.
http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

[Hoppin_Mad]

12. Thanks - another nail in kerry's coffin -nt-

[blm]

15. see above posts on the WORST civil liberties candidate, Dean.

.

[ulysses]

21. y'know,

whatever one's issues with Dean, I don't know how freely I'd be calling the guy who did, after all, stand by gay folks at not a little political risk "the worst civil liberties candidate".

[blm]

25. Out of all the candidates he is the worst on civil liberties issues.

Except Bush. But, in his post 9-11 statements on civil liberties he does sound eerily like Bush, doesn't he?

[sangh0]

28. Dean never fought forgay rights

The issue was forced on him by the

a) brave gay couple that sued the State of VT -- the govt Dean was running-- for infringing on their rights

b) The VT judge who ruled in their favor.

Here in NYC we have real liberals that fight for gay rights and they don't wait for a judge to force the issue

[genius]

19. Dean is the enemy of civil liberties

So you must really hate him.

[ulysses]

22. I fucking give up.

Dean is the "enemy of civil liberties". Christ on a crutch.

Y'all knock yourselves out. I'm out of here.

[sangh0]

29. Give up? You never started

to address statements from Dean like "I think our freedom is what they find so threatening"

Tell me that doesn't sound like Bush*

[Mile Hi]

33. Kerry really voted for these?

I don't like that.