Stop Helping Bush!

[worldgonekrazy]

You know, I am a Dean supporter, but I would be happy with a number of the other candidates as well (including Clark). The main issue for me--as it ought to be for anyone who calls themselves a a liberal and/or a Democrat--is to get Bush out of the White House.

The continuous bashing of Dean by the other candidates in this race is not going to help with this goal. In fact, I now see a very real possibility that Dean will win the nomination only to get beat by Bush because his fellow Democrats already did the dirty work for the Repubs.

Is this what anyone here wants?

Even if you think Dean is a bad candidate or will make a bad President, surely you do not want to deliver a death blow to his chances before the general campaign even begins?

For the love of God, lets please focus on the bad guy here, which is Bush, in case you forgot. The Repubs must be shitting their pants with glee in Washington because the Democrats are going to beat themselves up before the general campaign even begins.

I don't care how much any candidate wants to be President or thinks he/she will be a better candidate than Dean. If you attack Dean for the sole purpose of attacking Dean (as Kerry, Lieberman, Gep, and now Clark have been doing), you are a DISGRACE. Get your shit together and take on the real bad guy.

BTW, this goes for any candidate. Dean is getting bashed because he is the front-runner, but if Clark were the frontrunner and he was getting bashed (yes, even by Deaniacs) I would say the same damn thing.

[chimpymustgo]

1. Maybe Dean will stop helping Bush and quit attacking other Dems.

This would be funny if it weren't so absurd. Dean's been slinging mud since day one. Now some of the candidates are calling him on his bs - and they're accused of helping Bush?

Pulleeze.

[worldgonekrazy]

2. Wait just a damn minute

I don't think Dean has been slinging mud since day one. Please provide some evidence to back up that statement.

But more importantly, most of the attacks on Dean are not of the "calling him on his BS" nature. The attacks consist more of "Dean can't win!" and other absurd claims that are aimed ONLY at scaring people into dropping their support of Dean. It is shameful, and it will result in a George W. Bush win in 2004. If that is what you want, then go ahead and keep doing what you are doing. I would point out, however, that this message board is for liberals and as such you might be in the wrong place if you are so determined to hand Bush his first legitimate election in '04.

[Desertrose]

4. This is the process...if you think its bad now

wait til the Bush /Rove macine starts to chew on Howard.

The dems need a candidate that has nothing to offer them for fodder...obviously Dean has some issues that he can be called on....over and above the fact he is currently the frontrunner who is opposing the great annointed from god Bushcorp.

My best advice...learn to deal with it. All I see on these boards is Dean Dean Dean and I never thought there was that much to talk about in the first place. Many posts are emotional pleas or attacking others for not agreeing...not much substance on the issues...but this is only IMHO.

Peace
DR

[Looiewu]

21. Q:The biggest problem that Dean Has?

A:The Clintons are still in charge of the Democratic Party!

Hillery is scared to death that Dean will win the nomination, and gain control of the entire Democratic machine. That is why the other candidates are slinging so much mud agains HD. Until we can get Bill, Hill, and Terry McCauliff out of control, the mudslinging will continue, and the meltdown of the Democratic Party will not stop.

The Clintons are going to be responsible for Bush's second term!!!

[oasis]

24. So it's Hillary's fault that Dean has a problem with his credibility?

did she stomp on his back to prevent his entry into the armed services? Did Hillary tell him to make a "sour grapes" comment after the capture of Saddam?

[bearfartinthewoods]

28. i guess you haven't been here very long.

we've been treated to a daily dose of dean's "opinions" on his opposition for six months now.

[worldgonekrazy]

31. thanks for the ad hominem attack

I don't have to go through the trouble of discrediting your post now.

[floridaguy]

3. This is only kid stuff compared to GOP

Dear WGK:

I feel your pain, but we have to hold all our candidates up to the same light that will be shone on them in the general election. If Dean is the best candidate, he will be able to answer the critics and will only get stronger.

I, for one, believe Wes Clark is the best candidate. It's like when your best friend is making a huge mistake and you feel compelled to tell them your thoughts. It may come off not-so-nice, and your friend may not even like you for awhile, but if you'r a true friend, you MUST tell them, especially if you think they're in the process of making a crucial mistake.

That's how I feel. So I will be questioning Howard Dean until the nomination. The Democratic party deserves to have the best chance to beat Bush.

Good luck & Happy Holidays.

[libview]

5. Your right, just like Al Gore said, we need to stop all the bickering

and get behind Dean!
What the hell do we need a primary for anyway, we all know Dean is going to be the winner!!
/sarcasm

[worldgonekrazy]

7. There ya go again

Man, you guys are bitter!

I made a point of saying that the nomination process has not played out and Dean very well may not be the nominee. THE POINT IS--which you seem to miss time and time again--THAT BY BASHING FELLOW DEMS YOU ARE ONLY HELPING THE REPUBS!

Can't you see this?

Or do you REALLY think Dean is SO awful that it is worth killing his chances against Bush on the off chance that he might lose the nomination?

[Zinsipperlover]

25. Agree, agree, and agree again

Welcome to DU!

I have posted similar rants about this ABD b.s, but there are some here who are actively helping bushco get re-elected.

[paulk]

37. it's not an "off" chance that Dean won't get the nomination

and until that time I will do my best to convince people that Howard Dean is not the best candidate we, as Democrats, can put forward.

You are basically saying that criticizing Dean is tantamount to helping the Republicans. That is an insult.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[libview]

8. What is this about Will Pitt?

[worldgonekrazy]

9. You got that right

This kills me. Bush is the worst president this country has had in modern times (at least back to Hoover, IMO) and yet the Dems are DETERMINED to shoot themselves in the foot and give him another term! God dammit, it makes me so mad. If we lose in '04 because of this--fuck the party. I'm gone. I'll go over to the Greens (where I really belong anyway), where they might never win but at least its not because they are determined to kill each other.

[RetroLounge]

15. Deleted after re-reading thread

never mind...

[worldgonekrazy]

20. Deleated after seeing previous message was deleted

LOL

[citizen snips]

10. Try telling that to Lieberman, Kerry, and Gephardt.

[illini]

11. Some of these post make my point about what a Democratic firing squad....

looks like. I takes the shape of an inward pointing circle.

[Jack_Dawson]

12. Clark runs the cleanest campaign, according to DU

http://tinyurl.com/3boz8

[worldgonekrazy]

14. I would have agreed, before that VP crap

I actually do admire the fact that Clark has said that he doesn't believe in negative campaigns and has (until now) stuck to that. But what is this crap about Dean approaching him to be VP? There is no reason for Clark to put this out there other than to try to hurt Dean. Lets try to hurt Bush, not Dean, not Clark, hell, not even Kerry, Lieberman, or Gep.

[Jack_Dawson]

18. Clark answered a question - it was hardly "crap"

Clark is a stand-up guy. GS asked him a question, and he answered it. I'm sorry a lot of people don't like the answer, but it was a direct answer to a direct question. And if Dean really is implying that Clark will round-out the ticket, that implication needs to be headed off immediately.

[zulchzulu]

13. Anything else? You might want to toughen up a bit

Gee, if you're upset because Dean is under scrutiny because of his own words, deeds, record in Vermont and whatever, maybe you'd just like us all to be quiet and just sit in the corner and say nothing.

Maybe you'd like my car and house too. Would that make you feel better too?

Someone posted this poll on another thread; maybe it should be food for thought for you:

December 1991 Gallop National Poll

Mario Cuomo - 33%
Jerry Brown - 15%
Douglas Wilder - 9%
Bob Kerrey - 8%
Tom Harkin - 7%
Bill Clinton - 6%
Paul Tsongas - 4%
Undecided/Others - 18%

Cuomo didn't run, but could be seen as the "Hillary" then.

Harkin handily won Iowa. Tsongas ended up winning in New Hampshire.

[worldgonekrazy]

16. There are legitimate criticisms, and then there is mudslinging

I have seen some of the former with regard to Dean, but it seems like at least 95% of anti-Dean posts consist of the latter. Particularly with regard to this ridiculous hysteria over "Dean can't win." It is disgusting, and it makes me want to say "fine then, fuck yourselves" and vote Green. I'm not the only one either.

[chimpymustgo]

22. Nobody but Dean? Eyes on the prize, folks.

We don't know who the nominee will be. But we all want to kick AWOL out of the WH - right?

Right?

[ibegurpard]

32. ...

[ibegurpard]

17. I think respect for the dead would be sufficient

but I won't be holding my breath.

[zulchzulu]

23. What is that supposed to mean?

Are you referring to Dean using political expediency for his dead brother with the recent issue about saying his brother was in the armed services when he was in fact a citizen?

[worldgonekrazy]

26. If Dean says his brother was military, he was in some respect

Take it to the bank. Dean has far too much integrity to lie about something like that. And yes, if I'm wrong, I might seriously consider dropping my support of him. But I'm not. Just wait and see.

[jbfam4]

19. you are right......this bashing does help *

Candidate dem bashing is doing nothing but destroying our candidates chances. The republicans don't have to say a word since we are doing it to ourselves. I will support anyone, but BUSH.

Welcome to DU....I like the way you think and express yourself.

worldgonekrazy , Sad, but true.

[jjmalonejr]

27. It's not helping Bush, it's ensuring a strong Democratic candidate.

When concerned Democrats point out the flaws in Bush's foreign policy, the folly of his conduct in the war on terror and the failure to adequately provide REAL homeland security, Republicans immediately attack them for being "upatriotic" and "giving comfort to the enemy," when all they are doing is demonstrating how vulnerable we are to attacks from terrorists with Bush at the helm. As if the terrorists don't already know that our ports, nuclear plants and chemical facilities aren't adequately protected.

When concerned Democrats point out the flaws in candidate Howard Dean, many of his supporters immediately attack them for being "Republican-lite" and "giving Bush all the ammunition he needs," when all they are doing is demonstrating how vulnerable we are to attacks from Karl Rove with Dean at the helm. As if the Republicans don't already know that Dean's positions are inconsistent and his foreign policy experience non-existent.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of Dean limping his way to the convention, only to get trounced by Bush. However, the responsibility lies with the myopia of Dean and his supporters, not with the Democrats currently sounding the alarm.

[chimpymustgo]

29. Very well said, jjmalonejr.

Right to the point.

[worldgonekrazy]

30. Right. Lets try to out-negative the kings of negativity

Heaven forbid we should try to enter the general election with a positive message. I think that is what the people want, but it seems the Dems are determined not to give it to them. Maybe they are right, maybe that isn't a winning strategy. But if it ain't, then there isn't anything worth winning, IMO.

[jjmalonejr]

33. Dean has been just as negative as anyone.

It's a reality of politics. If Dean can't take what his fellow Democrats are saying about him, how is he going to withstand the onslaught of the Karl Rove attack machine?

[worldgonekrazy]

35. I'm not saying Dean can't take it

I'm saying that it kills the idea of 2004 as a year of change and hope. Instead you just want the same goddamn thing that has gotten us to where we are. Sure, go ahead and shoot yourself in the foot. But don't expect that I am going to feel sorry for you when it hurts.

[TexasSissy]

34. What are you referring to? It would help if you'd be specific

or direct your comments to someone who is "bashing" him. Really. As a Clark supporter, I'm not overly sensitive to Dean criticism, so I guess I'm not seeing it (any more than I'd expect for anyone in the lead). But is there something specific that happened?

[caledesi]

36. Well said. nt