Enough with the Insider/Outsider mess already.

[plurality]

Since my other thread was locked, I'll try and say this in a calmer manner. It's just that my blood boils everytime I see someone falling for this ridiculous marketing ploy.

Howard Dean, a 10 year Governor, heavily involved in the NGA and the DLC, IS NOT AN OUTSIDER! And neither is Wesley Clark, who went to West Point (must have reccomendation of 2 Congressmen to get accepted), worked in the Army/Defense Department (last time I checked that was involved in running the country), and was a lobbyist. Residing/working somewhere other than Washington DC doesn't exactly cut you off from all the elite/well connected back-slapping crony politics that you're supposedly voting against.

If one were to go by some of the definitions some people are going by here George W. Bush was an outsider when he ran. Remember, he was a Governor, not a Congressman, or a Senator, so he MUST have been an outsider right? Nevermind that he had corporate scumbags proping him up like crazy, but using the general DU definition he was an 'outsider', so I guess many here swarmed to him over Gore since if you work in Washington you have to be the devil right.

[quinnox]

1. True, but it's just politics

If Arnold can win running as an outsider, why not try the same schtick. It might work. Dean, Clark and Edwards are all giving it a shot.

[plurality]

4. Yeah, but we're supposed to be smarter than that right?

I mean if all we're running on is marketing ploys, branding, and all the other bullshit, then we're no better than the Repugs. That and there's so many people here who have bought into it hook, line, and sinker.

[mikehiggins]

16. Wow you're right

If we run against Kerry we're no better than the Repugs.

I'm so ashamed.

I guess that means we'd start a war with Afghanistan and Iraq after ignoring warnings before 9/11, right? I guess that means we pollute the air and water, screw public education (why do the servants need education anyway) and drive the economy into the ground ("trickle down"; didn't work then...doesn't work now).

The purpose is to remove these people from office.

That is what is necessary, no matter what it takes.

Kerry IS an insider, an integral part of the Beltway political system that brought us to this point. Dean was a pissant little emperor of a tiny state. Clark was busy elsewhere.

Neither Dean nor Clark was in a position to make a difference. If we can judge Dean by his failure to win in Iowa and NH, we can judge Kerry by his failure to exercise due diligence by voting for a bill that handed a loaded gun to a documented bungler that beleives Jesus told him to invade Iraq.

Good call there, Senator Kerry. So much for eighteen years of deals and compromises.

Ted Kennedy is outraged that Bush lied to him about funding NCLB.

I'm outraged that he was stupid enough to believe him.

I'd vote for Al Sharpton with a better heart than I'd vote for John Kerry. This primary campaign is the only chance I have, along with millions of ABB voters, not to have to face that possibility.

[plurality]

18. it seems you've missed the point

This post is first not meant to say that people are wrong to criticize John Kerry, and neither is it a criticism of Howard Dean or Wesley Clark.

The point is that if one is going to criticize or praise any of the above it should be done on the merits as opposed to some moronic marketing ploy that has no basis in fact.

[Walt Starr]

26. Insider vs. outsider is 100% based on facts

Members of the House, members of the Senate, the Vice President, and the President are all "Insiders" inside the beltway.

Every other United States citizen is an outsider.

[plurality]

28. no it doesn't

because 'insider' implies that the person labeled as such has all the access and makes all the decisions.

and 'outsider' implies that said person is completely outside of the system having no input or say on what occurs in the decision making process.

limiting 'insider' to only Senator, Congressmen, Pres., and VP, is ludicrous as there are THOUSANDS who don't occupy those positions that have TONS of influence on what goes on in Washington and everywhere else in the country. These people include lobbyists, cabinet secretary, other beaureaucrats, as well as high ranking state officials, all of these people influence what goes on in this country.

Using your definition, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Paul Wolfowitz, Henry Kissinger, etc, etc, are all 'outsiders' and that's fucking ludicrous.

[girl gone mad]

2. Relativity.

Compared to Clark, Dean and Edwards, Kerry is an insider.

[sangh0]

11. Relativity

Compared to Bush* (one term in office as Gov), Dean is an insider

[eileen_d]

3. You are correct.

I responded in more detail to the locked thread, but I gotta quit procrastinating and go to work.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

5. Unfortunately his internet campaign contributions fuel the myth

Yes he is getting money from the average guy/gal but he hardly has the credentials. If anyone Kucinich should be getting these bucks.

[plurality]

6. Unfortunately we see that shine, glitter, and Madison Avenue trump all.

Substance is nothing, image is everything. What else could you expect from the nation with the largest prison population on Earth that also considers itself the most libertine.

[girl gone mad]

7. come on, now..

you're over-dramatizing.

Dean was critical of Bush at a time when almost none of the other candidates were, and he is a Washington outsider who doesn't speak DC-ease, which until very very recently, Kerry did.

[plurality]

9. puh-lease

Yes, he stood up to Bush, but he was not the only one, plenty of others did as well, but they didn't have the beltway media connections to get their criticisms aired.

And Washington outsider, you act like he wouldn't be able to find the place on the map. Do you think he's never been there or dealt with Washington? He was a top member of the DLC! He's got just as many insider connections as everyone else.

And no DC-ease, like who he at a debate that he never said he'd raise the retirement age and then had to backtrack the next day because he had indeed said it. Or how about how he supported Biden-Lugar. That's a pretty insider thing to support since most everyone outside of DC, had no idea what Biden-Lugar was, they either were for the war or thought it was bullshit.

[PVnRT]

21. What "beltway media connections"?

This is new. Now he has media connections? Or could it be that he was grabbing headlines simply because he started running for president so early, and raised money so quickly, that they decided to focus on him.

Nah, it's got to be a conspiracy!

[plurality]

23. let's see here

He wasn't saying anything that Kucinich, Sharpton, or Moseley-Braun hadn't already said 1000 times, he had the same polls numbers, and the same shitty finances, but for some reason CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS, et al decided to report it when he said it, as well as having Time, and Newsweek give him covers at the same time.

Ask Will how politicians get news coverage, it's not about what you say, it's about having the connections with the press so they'll decide to report what you say.

Dean just made a mistake by biting the hand that fed him in Iowa, and they bit back.

[Nazgul35]

8. You would be correct...

if all that mattered was the person and not the message....

The message that is going out in the campaigns of Clark, Dean, Edwards and Kucinich is one of cleaning house, returning power to the rank and file....

It is this message that the voters are voting for...in larger numbers than they are for the message of Lieberman and Kerry....

After this Tuesday, those voters will be coalesing around one of these four candidates, than it will be Kerry (supported by the Washington establishment crowd) versus X (supported by the Democratic rank and file)....

let's see who survives that campaign....

Not to DLC: you might have crowed a little too early

[plurality]

10. i just think the person and the message should match that's all

n/t

[mot78]

12. Also, Dean has the most superdelegates, who are insiders

[newsjunkie]

13. you dont get it

what they are talking about is inside Washington...as in deals, lobbyists,long-time friends paybacks,money, etc. They all got there by taking payoffs and deals and organizational BS. They are beholding to these interests just like Bush is to the GOP that got HIM there. Dean has been a governor of a small state but has stuck his neck out many times(unpopularly) to make things better for,THE PEOPLE there. Clark has worked within the military to make things better for THE PEOPLE in the military. Its totally different friom Kerry who has played the insider connection game for years in his public and private life also for YEARS. He will not make hard choices. He will do whats best for John Kerry politically,but he will fold on whats best for THE PEOPLE. He proved that to me already with his votes.

[plurality]

14. no you don't get it

If you think people only play politics in Washington, you're in for a rude awakening. Politics is politics, whether it's in Washington, DC or any where else. ALL politicians do favors for others who do favors for them or their friends that's the way the game is played. If you'd bother looking at Dean's record, not just the stuff that he posts on his website, you'd see that he's done just the same. As has Wesley Clark, he was a lobbyist, what the hell do you think that is? It's selling your connections to important people so that those important people will help them out. They're all just as much a part of that game as Kerry, and any other 'insider' that you rail against.

Saying it to yourself enough times won't make it true.

[robbedvoter]

15. How about "out of the bipartizan thingy" to remind people

how some candidates voted all the W crap (when they didn't skip voting alltogether like with FCC, Overtime, Medicare - only Kerry and Joe)

[plurality]

20. how about basing it on who's going to do the best job

instead of who can create the most "no basis in reality, rebel" image.

[Walt Starr]

17. Then name a single sitting Senator who was able to defeat an incumbent

president.

Just one.

You can't because although many have tried, they tried and failed.

Electability is the issue and history proves sitting Senators are unelectable when put up against incumbent presidents.

Read my signature and know the truth of this statement. The Senate is the absolutely worst poltical body when seeking a candidate for the presidency. History bears me out on this point. Only two sitting Senators have ever been elected president, and neither were running against incumbents.

[plurality]

19. The point is not that one should/should not vote Kerry/Dean/Clark

It's that the whole insider/outsider thing is ridiculous. Neither Dean or Clark are some crazy radicals coming out of the political wilderness that are going to destroy Washington as we know it. They are a product of the same system that is also responsible for John Kerry, Dick Gephardt, Ted Kennedy, etc, etc, simply from another geography.

This whole who's an insider versus who's an outsider game is counterproductive and idiotic. They're ALL INSIDERS.

Tell me, when's the last time some Joe Anybody was elected president....NEVER! That would be electing an outsider, so enough already!

[Walt Starr]

24. An "Insider" is an elected official inside the beltway

Only members of the House, the Senate, the vice President, and the President are "insiders".

Everybody else is an outsider.

[loyalsister]

22. Semantics

You have listed your chosen definition of insider, here's another definition.

Beltway INSIDER: Elected official who has been insidwe and a part of the current federal government. The people who wrote and voted on legislation. Eventually to be signed by the guy who they claim to disagree with so markedly.

[plurality]

25. and limiting it to that definition erases all hope of changing the system

your supposed 'outsider' heros will change.

[Walt Starr]

27. Sorry, but this is a fact

Incumbent presidents can only be defeated when a majority of the elctorate views the current situation in need of change. Insiders are defeated under these conditions because insiders are viewed as being as much a part of the problem as the incumbent president.

Most who are desirous of change view the choice of an incumbent vs. an insider as a no change situation and decide to wait four years when there could be change.

[plurality]

29. maybe so, but this is all marketing

Because there are only 2 REAL outsiders in this election: Al Sharpton, and Lyndon LaRouche. Everyone else is part of the governing structure of this nation and has no business being called an outsider. Any attempt to label them as such is pure marketing bullshit and I will shout it down every time.