Stop Trashing Us Dean Supporters over our support for Dean

[slinkerwink]

and please stop trashing Clark supporters over their support for Clark. I was very happy for Clark supporters when Clark won Dixville, the first town to vote at midnight, and upset when others were happy that Clark was falling behind to fourth or to third. I would have preferred for Clark or Dean to come out on top instead of Kerry.

This is no time to be kicking us when we're down. Remember, Kerry supporters, you once were down, and you can easily be down again. Fortunes change as quickly as that. There might be an ad or a smear campaign against Kerry that could quickly change the field. The sad thing is that I won't be moved to help Kerry out because of how we've been treated here on DU by other supporters when we were down. What really surprised me is how friendly most Clark supporters were to us after Iowa, and I think it's because they understand what it's like to be shafted by the media, other Democrats, and by a few members in the Clark campaign. To those Clark supporters who are still supportive and friendly to us Dean supporters, I say thank you. If Clark is the nominee, I will put in any efforts, and vote for him gladly. If Dean ends up being the nominee, I will put in any efforts, and vote for him gladly.

I used to be anybody but Clark, but I'm not anymore, because I see the danger in nominating someone like Kerry. Clark, like Dean, as I've come to realize now has criticized Bush for a long time, unlike Kerry. Clark stuck it to Bush on IWR, NCLB, and other issues when Kerry voted for IWR, NCLB, and the Patriot Act. How can Kerry have any credibility in a debate against Bush when Bush criticizes Kerry for flipflopping on his support of IWR, NCLB, and the Patriot Act?

In the words of Dr. Howard Dean in Michigan today:

"I began this campaign over two years ago, hoping to talk about issues: health care, investing in children, balancing budgets.

I was outraged at the direction of the country – but what struck me quickly was how deeply my outrage was shared by the people. Outrage not just at the President but at the Democrats in Washington for failing to stand up to George Bush and for what we believe.

Our economy is at risk. Our international reputation is in tatters. The fabric of our society is being ripped apart.

These aren’t petty political differences to be papered over. This is a fundamental disagreement over the very nature of what it means to be an American.

Eleven months ago, when few people knew our campaign existed, I spoke before the Democratic Party leadership in Washington. I asked some fundamental questions.

I wanted to know what the Democrats, including many of my opponents, were doing when they gave George Bush a blank check for his war in Iraq.

I wanted to know about the deficit, health care, and No Child Left Behind.

I am still waiting for the answers. The American people deserve the answers. The Democratic Party deserves the answers.

This campaign is about who has the courage to ask these questions, the judgment to find solutions, and the toughness to fight for real change. In my book, leadership means having the courage to stand up for what you believe, no matter what the polls say. And to deliver results, not just rhetoric.

Today, all my opponents are talking the talk. Even those who voted for the war speak like they opposed it.

Those who voted for No Child Left Behind, now criticize it.

Those who shrank from confrontation in the face of polls and pundits, now compete to outdo each other in their condemnation of George W. Bush.

But in 2004, Democrats must decide: Who will stand up for you against George W. Bush?"

[girl gone mad]

1. Kerry wom a couple of states..

and his supporters are using that fact to gloat and bash other candidates supporters relentlessly.

How will that help Kerry?

Some lessons never learned.

[Walt Starr]

17. It's hurt Kerry as far as I'm concerned

I'm now firmly ABB.

Anybody But Bonesmen.

[cthrumatrix]

2. the sad part is they smeared Dean before Iowa with the Bin laden TV ad

and the media crap hasn't stopped...and now they come to us and want our vote....

Of course nobody knows who did this....what we do know is Dean changed the race and people intersted in partcipating in the process more than anyone..and he was building something special...too special for "Somebody".

[slinkerwink]

4. I just don't get how they think we'll fall all over Kerry just because

*shakes head* he won two freaking states.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

14. 2 freaking states that looked closely at everyone for over a year

anyway, I don't see Kerry fans threatening any 'trashing' quotients.

[slinkerwink]

26. those two states are not representative of the larger population

Iowan Democrats are more conservative and afraid of candidates like Clark and Dean because they have the ability to change the status quo. They just want to change Presidents, not change America.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

33. That's right. The caucus is just 'special interests' and NH is....

... a neighbor of Vermont and highly independent.

[slinkerwink]

35. how can NH be a real Democratic primary if independents can vote in it?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

well it is. And it shows Kerry will do great in the general

his broad, across-the-board support from every demographic was impressive.

[Zomby Woof]

45. I have a question

Not even a month ago, some (some means "not most") Dean supporters were telling us to all fall in line with Dean and consider his winning the primaries, and the nomination, a foregone conclusion. Other Dean supporters, even if they were not trying to tell us who to support, considered his nomination inevitable.

So I have a question I'd like an honest answer to...

If Dean had won Iowa and NH, would you resist gloating and kicking the other candidates while they were down? Would you discount Iowa and NH as "just two states"? I can only imagine... They would be praised as the 2 most important states in the nation, and the most enlightened, because they saw the One True Way of Dean. But now the voters in those states are just dupes of the media and sheeple because things didn't turn out like his supporters planned.

That doesn't excuse kicking Dean while he is down either. That isn't the point of my post. The point is I suspect that many (many means "not all") Dean supporters would not be as magnaminous as you are suggesting the rest of us should be during these trying times for Dean.

The fact is, Dean is toast. He was leading in Arizona a month ago, and now he is in fourth. If he can turn that around in 5 days, I will eat the biggest, juiciest crow in DU history.
His lead in the other 6 February 3rd states is similarly imperiled.

No one has ever gotten the nomination without winning a primary. He better get his act together soon if he wants to be running after February.

But I came neither to praise nor bury Dean - I'd rather just tell you the Zomby Troof.

[slinkerwink]

50. I would have resisted gloating and attacking other supporters

because most of Dean supporters came up with an agreement on another forum not to gloat or attack other supporters if Dean had won IA and NH. That I can testify to.....

[Zomby Woof]

54. thanks for answering the question

I hope that would have come to pass, and I appreciate a concise and forthright reply.

[janx]

60. ZW, the Dean campaign discourages that kind of behavior.

:hi:

[Zomby Woof]

63. maybe so

But could they spread the word to DU? ;-)

[mitchum]

102. Zomby, you are a much nicer man than I...

because I don't believe that for a fucking second

[polmaven]

61. I have a question to add, (if you don't mind)

I have asked it of Dean Supporters in another thread, but have not gotten an answer.

I have seen 1 thread, posted by WI_DEM, with congratulations to Senator Kerry. There have been maybe half a dozen posts on other threads with some grudging acknowledgment that Kerry did indeed win both Iowa and New Hampshire decisively, not by a fluke.

A month ago the media held a coronation for Dean and a cremation for Kerry.Is it really too difficult for Dean's supporters...and the candidate himself for that matter...(he has never congratulated Kerry or Edwards)...to give Senator Kerry credit for a remarkable turn-around?

[Eloriel]

82. Why should we?

The Dean campaign made mistakes, but by NO means were those mistakes the only contributor to his downfall, and quite possibly not even the main contributor. Kerry had his hand in a good bit of what else went on -- campaign dirty tricks, push polling in Iowa, etc.

And you think I should congratulate Kerry who embodies the type of politics and politicians we Dean supporters are fighting against? I think not.

[blm]

83. Oh. You want to go on record that you're AGAINST

the one man who exposed more government corruption than any other lawmaker alive? So, does that mean you're FOR hidden, corrupted government?

[polmaven]

86. Why should you?

Because that's what Democrats do.

All of these candidates are in this race for the same reason...to save this country from another fascist term.

John Kerry did not "attack" Howard Dean unfairly any more than Howard Dean "attacked" John Kerry unfairly. Open, honest debate is necessary and important in this party. We should always keep in mind what is important. A Democrat in the White House, and control of Congress are what is important.

Disagreement with each other does not constitute an attack. Dean and Kerry were equally forceful in pointing out what they saw as flaws in each other's positions.

The "civil" thing to do when one loses is to congratulate the winner. The Governor has twice failed to do that, and his supporters have followed suit. Losing is just as much a part of politics as is winning. Democrats should be able to rise to that and come out with the party winning because of the collective wisdom gained by what each candidate brought to the table.

Senators Edwards and Lieberman congratulated Kerry, as did Congressman Kucinich, General Clark and Reverend Sharpton. Governor Dean did not.

[DoctorMyEyes]

10. It isn't about Kerrys supporters

or Deans supporters, or anyone elses supporters.

I'll be glad when everyone stops sounding like school children ready to take their ball and go home.

Can we all just grow the fuck up and realize that no matter WHO gets the nod - if you care ANYTHING about your country, environment or your fellow humans you will work your ass off to beat Bush?

[lancdem]

13. Amen

[slinkerwink]

22. we can't beat Bush if we have a weak general election candidate

like Kerry.

[DoctorMyEyes]

31. and we WON"T beat Bush

if we don't support whichever Dem the VOTERS choose!

[Zomby Woof]

51. that's just supposition

I am one of the many DUers who think Dean would get trounced by Bush in the GE. BUT! At least I admit that I have no proof of that assertion. You say the same about Kerry as if it is fact, not a matter of opinion.

So... the fact is, NOBODY knows who will win, or who has the best chance. But remember, one month ago Kerry was counted out of the race, espcially in Iowa and NH. So underestimate him at your own peril.

[maddezmom]

56. Kerry is looking preety strong lately

but I'm still for Wes. :)

[lurk_no_more]

97. And if dean can't beat Kerry

How's he gonna beat *?


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[bicentennial_baby]

3. Oh you

You're the best Noelle! I've got yer back! :hug:

ps- if you're ever stuck and need a ride, just drop me a pm neighbor! You're my favorite Dean supporter and quite possibly my favorite DUer!

[slinkerwink]

6. awww, thanks!

:toast:

[codegreen]

5. no prob, but...

could y'all stop trashing Kerry also please?

[slinkerwink]

8. when y'all stop trashing dean and clark......I'll stop trashing kerry

*snickers* that'll be a cold day in hell.

[polmaven]

62. You First!!!

Did not....Did Too...Did Not...Did Too.....Mommmmmmmmyyyy!!!

[molly]

7. You didn't kick us when we were down?

[slinkerwink]

9. I did, and I'm ashamed of that and willing to admit it

[eileen_d]

16. Are you ashamed that you called Kerry

"another Dukakis candidate with a bad Botox job" today?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=225340

Yeah, right. When I need civility lessons, I'll be calling you. :eyes:

[slinkerwink]

20. no, I'm not-----read my post. Kerry is the typical washington insider

who'll lick his finger and test it in the wind to see which direction to go.

[eileen_d]

24. But if I share my negative feelings about Dean, I'm being unfair

Right?

I think someone needs more practice in backing a candidate who ISN'T the frontrunner. Luckily you will be getting plenty.

[slinkerwink]

39. no, it's because we're down at the moment and people still love

and actually relish kicking us when we're down.

[eileen_d]

46. And when I supported Kerry last fall

I felt the same way. "Golly, these Dean supporters sure relish kicking us when we're down."

Difference is, I didn't cry or whine about it.

Payback is a... you know the rest.

[slinkerwink]

53. oh, you're right, payback's a bitch, and I can't wait to see kerry go down

[eileen_d]

58. I see. I should do as you say, not as you do.

As I said - you will have plenty of practice supporting a losing candidate over the next couple of weeks, so I hope you get used to it. Kerry, Clark and/or Edwards will be the bandwagon, and Dean will under it.

[blm]

65. So you hate the one man who exposed more govt. corruption than

any other lawmaker? Hmmmm.... so does the GOP. Interesting that you are so condemning of the man that exposed BushInc the most.

[slinkerwink]

67. the fact remains is that Kerry is beholden to special interests.......

[blm]

74. That's not a FACT, that's a MEME.

Kerry never took corporate pac money or special interest money in any of his Senate campaigns.


If you look at his record, his votes favor pro-small business and pro-environmental legislation over corporate interests.

Where do you get your "facts", from Dean blogs?

[AntiCoup2K4]

77. You have a lot of "negative feelings about Dean"

for someone who was calling herself a Dean supporter last week. Why is that?

[eileen_d]

88. Oh, you gotta provide a link for that one!

I have NEVER claimed to be a Dean supporter. Maybe I posted after too many G&T's or something...

[blm]

25. If you know that's true, then why ask why?

There is very little trashing of Dean supporters by Kerry supporters.

In fact, it was Dean supporters who trashed Clark when HE was moving up in the polls. They hated him. Kerry supporters didn't.

Now that Kerry moved up, Dean supporters suddenly "love" Clark and his supporters and HATE Kerry.

Who's fooling who?

[slinkerwink]

30. you claim there wasn't little trashing of Dean supporters?

Why don't you search the archives? I admit that I had trashed Clark when he moved up in the polls, but that was out of the simple fear of being threatened. But now I realize that Clark is running an outsider campaign a lot like Dean's campaign, and that he's been shafted by the media and by members of his own Democratic party like Dean where Kerry's been coasting freely for a couple of weeks now without insults hurled at him from the DLC.

[blm]

38. Where was your concern when the press declared Kerry dead?

You mocked it. That dried up his fundraising and you were filled with glee.

Kerry pulled through because he is the real deal and had a record that matched his words in SPITE of the media.

[slinkerwink]

40. kerry is not the real deal---he's coopted a lot of Dean's message

and his record is quite pitiful. Voted for IWR, NCLB, and the Patriot Act. Those were the issues we were going to fucking beat Bush over the head with. If Kerry's the nominee, then we're fucking ceding the general election to Bush because we can't fucking attack him with those issues and still have credibility in our nominee if it's Kerry.

[blm]

64. HAHA. Dean is the one who moved left. Kerry has always been there.

The problem with your latest Dean meme is that you all never paid attention to Kerry's ACTUAL positions before so now that he's finally getting some media time, he's saying things that you heard before from the only candidate you DID pay attention to, Dean.

Except, if you read all of Kerry's positions you would realize he held those positions for years and they have been worked on for years.

Dean played catch up to Kerry's 30 years of efforts. You only listened to the newly CONVERTED version of Dean last year. Sorry you were taken in by a fraud, but that's not Kerry's fault.

[slinkerwink]

66. Dean never fucking moved left.

[blm]

75. HAHHAHHAHAHA...sure he didn't.

Reality bites. Got band-aids?

[slinkerwink]

78. I'm not going to respond to your insult.

[Blitz]

91. My goodness

you start a thread pleading for people to lay off of Dean and his supporters and then, in the very same thread, you proceed to trash Kerry. Doesn't that strike you as a tad, um, hypocritical?

[eileen_d]

92. Do as she says, not as she does

Then it all makes sense. In fact, it's a lot like Dean himself - what he says and what he has done are two completely different things.

[Blitz]

93. On the bright side

For Dean, at least, it'll all be over in a few days. Then at least this front of the battle will finally quiet down and some semblance of civility can be restored.

[molly]

28. If you were still "on top" would you feel the same way?

or would you still do the arrogant and nasty Dean campaign thing?

You guys kicked John Kerry around a lot last Aug-Sept - you kicked him around while he was recovering from cancer. You kicked him around because he asked for swiss cheese on his Philly cheesesteak for crissakes! How totally and blantantly bullying was that?

What goes around comes around! You were never willing to take a good hard look at your candidates governor's record - the part that he didn't seal. You were scammed as I see it.

A pity party is not in order - but a good DEM hug can be found around here somewhere!

:grouphug:

[slinkerwink]

34. oh come on---the fact remains that kerry is uninspiring, and that is

why he will lose the general election to Bush.

[blm]

41. The fact remains he inspired MORE people than Dean did.

Internet message boards aren't real life. You miscalculated real people - that shows an inexperienced political analyst.

[molly]

47. The word "inspired" obviously has many levels

inspired - smart and inspired - emotionally and/or inspired - hoodwinked?

[Melinda]

15. No. Search my posts.

Not once have I ever trashed any supporters of any candidate, nor have I ever trashed any candidates unless stating I won't vote for a candidate constitutes "trashing".

[GumboYaYa]

27. I sure didn't

and I will support the eventual nominee with all the energy I have. If you can't understand the deep disappointment of seeing your campaign go down the tubes after putting so much time and effort into it, then keep on pouring salt in the wounds. Karma has its own way of teaching us these lessons over time.

Before too much longer we all need to be on the same team. People need to remember that as candidates start to fall by the wayside and show some graciousness.

[Justice]

11. This Was A Good Speech By Dean

It highlights the fact that the Washington Democrats have not stood up against Bush. I'd rather go down fighting.

Those who shrank from confrontation in the face of polls and pundits -well said.

Not many profiles in courage on the democrat side of the aisle these last few years.

[slinkerwink]

18. I'd rather go down fighting also on my own principles

I won't sell out to anyone like Kerry......

[MercutioATC]

12. Yeah Slinkerwink!!! Nice reminder to the other camps..

...and to us when we're back on top.

[slinkerwink]

19. hell yeah!

[DancingBear]

21. Hey Slink

I saw Dean in NH (I wrote about it sometime today here on DU), and met a lot of Dean folks in NH during the course of my stay. I learned a lot.

We (as Clark people) got early exit polling data on Election Day that showed a tight Dean/Kerry race - we were really hoping for one (selfishly, of course :) )

Sadly, it didn't happen. Even though I think the end is pretty close for Dr. Dean - hang in there. One never knows.

[slinkerwink]

23. exactly----fortunes can change quickly.

[rpf113]

29. This is an election.

We're supposed to 'trash' eachother's candidates.
Then when 'the one'is chosen, we'll all drop the criticism and get rid of Bush!

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slinkerwink]

37. the fact remains is that we've been under attack for months on end

and to this day, we still remain under attack. What are we supposed to do? Lie back and let the hypocrites of the Democratic party rape us?

[cthrumatrix]

42. the smear on Dean is like the election 2000 smear ..an injustice

has been done

[PurityOfEssence]

90. "Rape" is a mighty strong word

This is an issue many have with many of Dean's supporters: they consider themselves above the normal laws of comportment because of some kind of self-proclaimed moral superiority. Dean lies about the others. He makes group smears that are incorrect. He claims that he's the only one who fights against Bush and that the others are a bunch of copycats. Yet somehow, he and many of his supporters think that he is inherently "better" and can use whatever tactics they please. You have not been raped. That's dirty pool. You have, in fact, been well beyond strident on many occasions.

The attacks from the Dean camp are, on the whole, more nasty and less justifiable than those they have to suffer.

[MercutioATC]

43. I don't find the obnoxious posters to be from any particular camp.

...but I'll bet if we put our minds to it, we'd come up with near-identical lists...

[GumboYaYa]

49. All is fair in love and war....

and politics too. Candidates attack each other in elections and supporters do the same. At the end of this election we will have a candidate who we all (hopefully want to beat George Bush). Some Dean supporters have been agressive in the elections. I assert that I am not one of those and defy you to find any post whee I have attacked the supporters of any other candidate. I have crticized things about candidates that I do not like, but never in an agressive or mean way. Nevertheless, at the end of the day we all need to be behind our candidates. I'm scared the writing is on the wall for Dean and he could be out soon. The point I am trying to make is that when candidates go down (as all but one will) it is time to put old grudges behind us and welcome the supporters of the fallen candidate back into the fold with open arms. Holding grudges and rubbing people's noses in losses will not help the unification that has to occur to beat Bush.

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. Slinker...

I couldn't agree more with you about kicking Dean and his supporters when their down. It's so sad. It's so unfair. Dean is the guy who energized the Dem party, he got the blood boiling in people who didn't know they still had blood and he took the RIGHT position on the Iraq War...for THAT, he does NOT deserve the trashing he's getting. Kicking someone when they're down is so heartless and not something a fellow Democrat should participate in. Let me say this....I truly hope Dean survives to stay in the race. He shouldn't have to leave the race because of this. It's just not fair....to him or his supporters. :(

[slinkerwink]

48. I know......I hope he goes into the debate tonight with guns blazing

to remind those timid Democrats onstage who defined their messages, and who first stood up against Bush.

[Hoppin_Mad]

52. Thanks Slinky - The posts re Dean & Trippi last night were repugnant

Calling Trippi "public emeny #1", that he 'stole' our money, that he made 3-4.5 Million Dollars, 'The Dean Car Alarm' etc, etc. ALL unsubstantiated smears against a good man.

I noted it almost ALL came from Kerry supporters too.


Surprised ?

Not me !

[slinkerwink]

55. not surprised either......

payback's a bitch, and I hope tonight Dean will give it hard to Kerry along with Clark and Edwards.

[Democrats unite]

57. The only candidates that I support right now are...

Clark & Dean!

[slinkerwink]

59. same here, but in reverse!

Dean and Clark! ;-)


:hi:

[Skwmom]

68. I'd never thought I'd agree with you

on anything but I agree with you on this.

[slinkerwink]

69. that really means a lot to me, considering we've butted heads often

:hi:

[Skwmom]

71. I don't like to be mean to people when they

are going through a rough time. At least your guy has some backbone which is more than I can say for the rest of the jellyfish in Congress (excluding Byrd and a couple others).

[sistersofmercy]

70. I think it is entirely unfair to claim Kerry supporters are trashing

Dean supporters or Clark supporters. I have never trashed Dean, not once. I have never trashed Clark, not once. I actually have great respect for Clark and believe is an exceptional man possesing all the necessary attributes for a presidential candidate.
As I recall, you posted a few days ago an article about bush* taking a jab at Kerry and I have also seen you reply on a thread "Kerry needs to be taken out." You keep repeating over and over, Kerry is unelectable. How would you respond if any Kerry supporter did the same thing to Dr Howard Dean? You'd scream, "candidate bashing."
Now, I'm very sorry for Dean supporters about what has happened with Trippi and the money, I truly am. But don't you think maybe, just maybe, you're taking your frustrations out on us.

[mmonk]

72. Here, here slinkerwink!

Didn't come this far to quit the support. We can keep on with what matters. Candidates and supporters should stand for their principles and not shrink from issues.

[ibegurpard]

73. Just give it back ten-fold

These kind of appeals haven't worked in the past and they won't work now. What I REALLY find ironic is the people who were gleefully joining in all the Dean-bashing calling for civility now that Kerry is the front-runner.

[TopesJunkie]

76. Damn STRAIGHT! --

[Pantherman]

79. Dean supporters

Yea we have the right to are own opinion and if you don't like it kiss my donkey. and thats what i have to say about that.

[Skip Intro]

80. You said it, slinkerwink!

nothing to add

:thumbsup:

[slinkerwink]

81. thanks!

:hi:

[dreissig]

84. Big Trouble Ahead

There's big trouble ahead unless our representative democracy starts producing candidates who are truly representative. That leaves out John Kerry, voice of the political class and nobody else.

In 1968 we had to choose between Humphrey and Nixon, which is to say we had no choice at all. People who are not included in the political process have no interest in seeing it succeed.

Think we've got trouble now? Wait till huge blocs of voters get frozen out.

[LuminousX]

85. They can't help it, they aren't any better than that

[Ivote]

87. NO DEAN BASHING

from this Clark supporter. After the ringer that the media put him through. You Dean supporters have my deepest sympathy. And as far as the rest of the candidates are concerned I have three words for you. ARE YOU NEXT? To be caught in the media crosshairs.

[slinkerwink]

89. thank you!

:hi:

[Upfront]

94. Were Down???

Not where I come from. Put up the bat Dr. and we will see who is down. lol

[Zomby Woof]

95. I think that bat has become a toothpick

[slinkerwink]

96. nope, still going past one million

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

98. Treat people the way you want to be treated

[slinkerwink]

99. I've tried SO many times in the past, and it's always never done in

return.

[Blitz]

100. Just an observation

but you don't seem to have tried very hard in this thread.

[Name removed]

101. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[juajen]

103. No doubt about it, we have had some "shrinking violet" senators

I wish you had added Kucinich to that list of two. Nobody has been as brave as he has in opposing Bush from day one.

Hey, I just saw Dean on a repeat of Tweety. He did good. Hooray for us. Keep hammering those nails in the BFEE.