Skull and Bones

[manchu]

First off for all the kerry supporters I'm sorry if this offends you but this little subject has been knawing at me. I think Skull and Bones runs a whole lot deeper than political ideology. It is quite possible that the same guys that handle Bush could be lurking in a Kerry White house as well. Lets take a look at the recent happenings shall we? Kerry comes back from the dead in Iowa and snatches victory away from Howard Dean who was supposedly leading by a wide margin. This comeback came from nowhere, people were writing off Kerry as dead when he fired his campaign manager. Behind the scenes chicanery? Maybe, maybe not. Could have been a coincidence. Then he storms through New Hampshire and the momentum is building. To make things even better for Kerry, a recent poll stated that he wouild beat Bush in a election. Soon after that revelation the wmd story breaks with Kay saying that there are no WMD there. Prior to that Paul O Neill came out saying that the attack on Iraq was set before 9/11. Then Bush starts spending out of control. He's surpassed Clinton's budget by a wide margin. Bush is alienating his conservative base and instead of trying to repair it is driving the wedge in deeper with his spending. It almost seems as if hes trying to throw the election by making anti conservative moves. Now my personal opinion is this, I think if the fix is in it because the handlers realize Bush carries little to no crediblity. He cant get the UN to help us because he defied them and attacked Iraq. Kerry can. He cant attack another country using the WMD tag because of the mess in Iraq, once again no crediblity. Kerry could. Also I dont think The neo cons want the repubs to have total power(executive and congress) because when it all hits the fan they have no one to blame. I hope Im wrong about this but I just cant shake the bad feeling im get whenever I hear about Skull and Bones. Once again my apologies to all the Kerry supporters out there. I hope im way off base and need a few Kerry supporters to give me a little insight into what hes about and why you support him.

[bigtree]

1. I feel better when I see the bios of the accusers

The authors of this smear huddle at:
http://www.fleshingoutskullandbones.com /

Antony C. Sutton, editor of an excellent monthly newsletter, Phoenix Letter, stated in the October, 1996 edition:
http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/newstart/bohemian-grove /

“Up to a few months ago, our knowledge of Bohemian Grove, the exclusive elitist hideaway by supposedly adult wheeler dealers, a.k.a. Washington statesman and prominent people (all male).

We dismissed the behavior as immature, even pitiful, by emotionally disturbed juveniles and not worth attention. This is where Kissinger, Ford, Nixon, Bechtel, Bush, Cheney, Hoover and their friends (2600 members) hang out and “relax.” And if they want to behave as little boys that is their privilege, it is private property.

Recent information may radically change this perception of Bohemian Grove. Not merely drunkenness, unbounded use of alcohol and drugs with vague homosexual tones (confirmed by our sources) but reported activities much more serious – kidnapping, rape, paedophilia, sodomy, ritual murder. Investigation is blocked under the 1947 National Security Act.(!) and like the Omaha child abuse case, includes illegal detention of children.

For decades, there have been vague rumors of weird goings on in Bohemian Grove in more remote parts of its 2200 acres. Reliable reports claim Druidic like rituals - druids in red hooded robes marching in procession and chanting to the Great Owl (Moloch) - a funeral pyre with “corpses”. (Scores of men work in the Bohemian Grove as servants so this party is fairly well established.)

___________________________________________________________________

CHARLOTTE ISERBYT served as Senior Policy Advisor in the Department of Education, during the first Reagan Administration, where she
blew the whistle on a major technology initiative which would control curriculums in America’s classrooms.

Iserbyt is a former school board director in Camden, Maine and was co-founder and research analyst of Guardians of Education (Organization taking a no-nonsense, Judeo Christian approach to the education of Maine's young people.)

Iserbyt is a speaker and writer, best known for her 1985 booklet Back to Basics Reform or OBE: Skinnerian International Curriculum and her 1989 pamphlet Soviets in the Classroom: America’s Latest Education Fad which covered the details of the U.S.-Soviet and Carnegie-Soviet Education Agreements

She is a freelance writer and has had articles published in Human Events, and The Washington Times.

_____________________________________________________________________

ANTON CHAITKIN is a founding member of the political movement associated with Lyndon LaRouche.

The OMEGA File
POPULATION CONTROL, NAZIS, AND THE U.N.! -- by Anton Chaitkin
ROCKFELLER AND MASS MURDER

"The ROCKEFELLER Foundation is the PRIME SPONSOR of public relations for the UNITED NATION'S drastic depopulation program, which the world is invited to accept at the UN's scheduled September conference in Cairo, Egypt. Evidence in the possession of a growing number of researchers in America, England, and Germany demonstrates that the Foundation and its CORPORATE, MEDICAL, and POLITICAL associates organized the racial MASS MURDER program of NAZI GERMANY.

____________________________________________________________________

CARL OGLESBY - During Thanksgiving weekend 1965, toward the end of one of the first major rallies against the Vietnam War, a student activist named Carl Oglesby addressed the Washington crowd. He did not simply criticize U.S. support of South Vietnam's military regime, but hailed its communist foes for mounting "as honest a revolution as you can find anywhere in history."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2003-03-04-freedman_x....

____________________________________________________________________

Toby Rogers wrote about how the Bush Family Wealth is Linked to the Jewish Holocaust.

_____________________________________________________________________

Webster Tarpley learned at the knee of ; has been a disciple and employee of Lyndon LaRouche for at least twenty five years.

_____________________________________________________________________


I just cant shake the bad feeling I get whenever I hear about Skull and Bones (accusers).

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Yes this paranoia is informed by a bunch of homophbic nuts

Chaitkin, La Rouche and Sutton

[Sterling]

12. So Kerry and W are not frat brothers?

And Kerry was so successful getting to the bottom of all that CIA drug running stuff right?


I am sure you think voting for the IWR was no big deal either.

So what if some people who acknowledge that Kerry's history have an agenda. It does not change the facts in front of your face.

You for some reason choose to turn a blind eye where more objective people find these facts unsettling. I for one am sure we can find some one so compromised to run the country.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

21. Guilt by association is one of the hallmarks of poor reasoning

The CIA drug running story was damaged, as I recall by plausible deniability due to the edits in Gary Mark's story, while I am unhappy with the war vote there is NOT ONE person who has proven that that vote made a rat's ass bit of difference in the outcome except to make the start of war more predictable, and no one has more of a twisted agenda than the La Rouchie's.

[Sterling]

25. Ignoring key facts

in developing an opinion or course of action is either stupid or deceptive.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. I haven't ignored key facts, I simply haven't twisted them to fit an

agenda....I don't live my life thinking one day it's S and B..the next day it's the Zionists and the next day it's the Council on Foreign Relations.

If Kerry was so complicit in all of this why has Parry not indicated so...I doubt anyone has done more investigative work on these stories than him.....is HE ONE OF THEM TOO?

[Sterling]

40. Nice straw man you created.

Why not just bring up aliens or call me a tin foil hat person or some other such convenient way to dodge the issue at hand.

I can accept that after acknowledging Bush and Kerry have a life long bond and a history of mutual support you have decided you are comfortable with that and will still support Kerry.

Just don't try to ignore the facts or attack those that point them out.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

43. You have not demonstrated that as a fact. YOu have assumed it from

the info that you have.

I have not attacked you, I have suggested that you speculate and extrapolate beyond that which is provable, plausible or reasonable.

But if you want to provide compelling info, from sources as credible as..say..Parry...I'm all ears...or shall I say..EYES

[Sterling]

45. His frat and his voting on key Bush agenda points.

Is all you really need to know.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

48. Sorry again you fail the logic test

Barbara Boxer voted for the Patriot act..does that make her S and B?

Kerry has voted AGAINST more policies Bush has proferred than for.

Maybe it's all YOU need to know...I really like a mutifaceted approach that considers more than fear and innuendo.

[Sterling]

67. Your logic test?

Does not speak highly for your powers of reason. No offense but I can't say it dissapoints me to fail.

Kerry voted for the big ones and is there for Bush when he needs him most. The rest it is becoming clearer is just the puppet show Bill Hicks spoke of in his famous rant.

I am not sure if you are clear on what S&B is after reading your tangent about Boxer. You might want to run that whole bit through your logic machine again. It really made no sense.

S&B is a frat where little elite's meet and forge VERY close bonds that has implications for the rest of their life. This happens at any normal frat. Now imagine a frat where future presidents are sent by their puppet master parents? It is not hard to understand if you don't have an interest in ignoring it.


Now just to make it clear helping Bush is not the exclusive domain of S&B alumni. Helping Bush could be just as simple as being to stupid to know better or having a separate interest that compromises a person and inhibits them from acting on principle.

Bottom line is none of these reasons mitigate the lack of character it takes to enable the PNAC monsters.

In Kerry's case I think it is clear he has been compromised for a long time and S&B is a great place to look if you want to know why.

[sangh0]

68. Be specific

You keep talking as if there's some long list of Bush* bills that Kerry voted for, but you've yet to provide this list.

So far, I see:

1) IWR
2) PATRIOT Act

Is there anything else?

[Sterling]

83. Just today he covered Bush's ass on WMD.

By towing the GOP line of "blame the intel foot soldiers not the CIC". He is obviously carrying Bush's water and will continue to do so.

[sangh0]

87. Link please

I'm getting tired of your obfuscations. Kerry never said anything like that.

ANd I asked for a list. One item is not a list.

[Sterling]

121. You do check out the rest of the board don't you?

Why would you ask for a link to something being discussed right now on the board?

[sangh0]

127. Again, you refuse to back up your own assertions

So far, you've been unable to provide any support for your assertions, which shows your assertions are untrue.

[Andy_Stephenson]

27. Did New Hampshire vote by Diebold

just curious.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

32. The greatest number of votes, IIRC was opti-scan

Isn't that the most accurate as well?

[Andy_Stephenson]

33. No acutally

Punch cards are. Opit scan of the Diebold type and ES&S type are to say the least scary.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. I wasn't aware of that. I yield to your knowledge.

[Andy_Stephenson]

38. I believe and correct me if I am wrong...

that info came out in the Hopkins report.

[Andy_Stephenson]

37. It was Diebold...

New Hampshire Municipalities which use the ACCUVOTE Voting Machine
(as of September 2003)

On the Accuvote ballot, the voter fills in an oval which is placed next to a candidate's name.
After voting, the voter places the ballot in an optical scanning machine which will read all votes
cast on that ballot.

Towns that use these:

Allenstown Amherst Ashland Atkinson Auburn Barnstead
Barrington Berlin Bow Brookline Candia Canterbury
Concord Conway Deerfield Derry Dover Enfield
Epping Epsom Exeter Farmington Fremont Gilford Goffstown
Gorham Hampstead Hampton Hampton Falls Hanover Henniker
Hollis Hooksett Hopkinton Hudson Jaffrey Keene
Kingston Laconia Lebanon Litchfield Littleton Londonderry
Loudon Madison Manchester Merrimack Milford Milton
Nashua New Ipswich New London Newmarket Newton North Hampton
Pembroke Peterborough Portsmouth Raymond Rochester Sanbornton
Seabrook Somersworth Stratham Sunapee Swanzey Wakefield
Weare Winchester Windham Wolfeboro Plaistow

New Hampshire Municipalities which use the OPTECH Voting Machine
(as of September 2003)

On the Optech ballot, the voter completes an arrow which is placed next to a candidate's name.
After voting, the voter places the ballot in an optical scanning machine which will read all votes
cast on that ballot.

Alton Bedford Belmont Brentwood Canaan Chester
Danville Durham Gilmanton Grafton Grantham Greenland
Lee Meredith Milan New Hampton Newbury Newfields
Northwood Pelham Pittsfield Rye Salem
Sandown Tilton

All other municipalities in New Hampshire use paper ballots, where the voter marks an X in a box printed next to a candidate's name. Votes are counted by hand.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/htdocs/dcforum/DCForumID91/3.html

I thought John was going to "litigate Diebold"...But I guess that only would occur if he lost. Hmmmm strange indeed.

[Sterling]

47. WOW on it as usual GBC!!!

Are the BBV people looking into this. I know we would see it in the general but now it looks like from our own as well.

[Andy_Stephenson]

139. Ok I called New Hampshire this AM...

and am satisfied at this point in time nothing funny was going on. I must admit I was going in looking for something and I am not done yet. But at this point in time I think everything was ok in New Hampshire.

[Exultant Democracy]

119. Nothing to see here, move along

I'm not a Kerry supporter, but I am willing to say this is soooo very dumb. The S&B has been effectivly dead for around a decade. The whole organization fell apart when they decided to start letting girls in.

[Sterling]

122. Myabe it is not what it was

Things change, power groups shift and relocate. It is fluid.


Maybe at one time the Free Masons were actually a factor in politics. Now they are just another lodge. No reason to keep our heads in the sand.

[eileen_d]

2. Replace "Skull and Bones" with "Freddie Krueger"

Now... are you really still afraid of Freddie Krueger?

Thanks for the clarification about Iowa - of course Kerry doesn't WIN in Iowa on his own merits, he "snatches victory away from Howard Dean" - therefore Dean didn't LOSE Iowa, he was *prevented from winning*. The culprits? Those pesky VOTERS!

[ibegurpard]

6. Just one little quibble.

Freddy Krueger doesn't exist and Skull and Bones does. Whether or not they are as sinister as some would have us believe I have no idea. That is all.

[eileen_d]

15. Prove Freddie Krueger doesn't exist.

You'll have as much luck "proving" any of the crap about S&B.

[ibegurpard]

17. You misunderstand me.

Although I take any of the claims about Skull and Bones with a certain grain of salt, they are REAL. You're not suggesting that Skull and Bones doesn't exist, are you?

[eileen_d]

19. Skull and Bones exists, yes

But it's used as a boogeyman to scare people. Like Freddie Krueger.

[manchu]

24. and some will tell you

that the Carlyle Group is a harmless corporation, not a big time player in the scheme of things.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

34. False analogy: a fraternity and a war profiteer

We're failing the logic test big time folks!

[manchu]

44. How do you figure?

Im saying that someone out there will deny that the Carlyle Group are war profiteers the same way that people would say that Skull and Bones was a simple frat. Im not comparing the organizatons im comparing the opinions of the organizations (i.e. whether or not they are more than what they appear to be)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. Because they are not equally weighted

One is a company led by ties to world leaders and policy makers profiting (and this is PROVABLE and discernable) from the buying and selling of arms and technology used for war and control.

The other is a fraternity of which much has been speculated and written, and nothing proven except who the members were. There is NO SINGLE tie back to the fraternity except that SOME of their members were successful. There is NOT the throughline back to S and B but for a handful of presidents attending at different times..like there is to demonstrate that a bunch of war mongers created a company that profits off of their advice as elder statesmen to current world leaders as there is with Carlyle.

[Sterling]

49. Sure they are S&B is a finishing school for future Presidents

And puppet masters. Look at who is involved!!! It is a list of who's who's of power in the US.

It may not be where they draw up their evil plans (their daddy's are still doing that at that age) but it is where they forge their relationships.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

53. LOL isn't that all of Yale, Harvard, Princeton, MIT, etc?

I would suggest that since a lot of leaders came out of Yale a good deal of them came out of S and B...heck..we could make the same assumption about college in general...if it is so powerful...why only three presidents so far? With all that power, you'd think they'd have a better track record.

[Sterling]

79. You are talking about elite Universities.

Not a specific secret organization that has a similar history to that of S&B. I will assume you understand the difference as I respect your intelligence if not your agenda.

I almost did not want to dignify this dodge with a reply but I thought I should point out that you are building another straw man here.

[Tinoire]

124. There's a difference. My brother, Harvard, is ex?-Kerry because of S&B

He called me a few nights ago. Now understand that we rarely talk about politics... Into our conversation, he mentioned how thrilled he was that Kerry, a good Liberal Dem, was winning. We chatted a bit about the Dems and into our conversation, I mentioned that Kerry was S&B. My brother got really silent and asked "You don't mean S&B from Yale do you?" I said yes. He was appalled and kept asking me "are you sure?" ((After 3 years at DU, I think so)) He started rationalizing a little about how we'll never find a perfect candidate...

Last night, he called me again ((only talk maybe once a month) because this was really bothering him. "Are you SURE?" he asked again. "Yes", but I googled anyway.... "Class of 1966 (or 8 can't remember).

He is a little freaked out by this. Doesn't know if he can vote for Kerry now- says he can but damn that he really has to think about it now.

Will be pumping him for details soon. I should add that I was shocked to see his reaction because he's not DU and these aren't things we grew up with or talked about in my family or in our social circle. Also, my brother is no fool, not prone to conspiracy theories, and was very much one of the "in" boys.

Anyway, I am googling this a little.

Bones is not restricted to the Republican Party. Yet another Bonesman has his eye on the Oval Office: Senator John Kerry, Democrat, Skull & Bones 1966.

“It is fascinating isn't it? I mean, again, all the people say, ‘Oh, these societies don't matter. The Eastern Establishment is in decline.’ And you could not find two more quintessential Eastern establishment, privileged guys,” says Rosenbaum. “I remember when I was a nerdy scholarship student in the reserve book room at, at the Yale Library, and John Kerry, who at that point styled himself ‘John F. Kerry’ would walk in.”

“There was always a little buzz,” adds Rosenbaum. “Because even then he was seen to be destined for higher things. He was head of the Yale Political Union, and a tap for Skull and Bones was seen as the natural sequel to that.”

<snip>
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/60minutes/main576332.shtml

===

bostonherald.com

Kerry made his Bones in secret club - like Bush

by Andrew Miga
Thursday, May 15, 2003

WASHINGTON - Sen. John F. Kerry expounds on many issues in his presidential campaign, but he's completely silent on one topic: his membership in Skull and Bones, Yale's infamous secret society.

``John Kerry has absolutely nothing to say on that subject. Sorry,'' said Kerry spokeswoman Kelley Benander.

Kerry is a respected senator and a decorated Vietnam War combat veteran, but 36 years after he was initiated into what has been called the ``ultimate old boy network,'' he's wary of breaking the ultra-exclusive club's strict secrecy code.

<snbip>

Kerry was tapped for the club in 1968, two years after Bush, whose father and grandfather were also Bonesmen. Kerry's brother-in-law from his first marriage, David Thorne, was Bones. So was the late husband of Kerry's current wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry. The Bones alumni roster is flush with CIA officials, business moguls, congressmen and Supreme Court justices. The club owns a secluded 40-acre island retreat on the St. Lawrence River.

<snip / something progressive Kerry did there / fighting to get women admitted into the club>

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/kerry_made_his_bones_in_secret_club


John Kerry admits to Skull and Bones Membership on 'Meet The Press'

In this video you will hear Senator John Kerry admit, on American National television show Meet The Press, that he is a member of The Secret Society named 'Skull & Bones'.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/010104kerryadmits.html (loads slowly)
http://www.themedianews.com/video/kerry.wmv (a little faster)

Also interesting from MSNBC: http://www.propagandamatrix.com/secrets_of_the_tomb

And for the record, Rhodes Scholars are no better. Read up about Cecil Rhodes and his goal to of an Anglo-Saxon domination of the world:

Building Empire: Rhodes' "Confession of Faith"

Rhodes contended that sharing British imperialist ideals would benefit all humans. Scholars have labeled his profession of these as his "Confession of Faith":

I contend that we are the finest race in the world, and that the more of the world we inhabit the better it is for the human race. I contend that every acre added to our territory means the birth of more of the English race who otherwise would not be brought into existence.

Added to this, the absorption of the greater portion of the world under our rule simply means the end of all wars. The objects one should work for are first the furtherance of the British Empire, the bringing of the whole uncivilized world under British rule, the recovery of the United States, the making of the Anglo-Saxon race but one Empire.
(Gross 61)

http://www.emory.edu/ENGLISH/Bahri/Rhodes.html


Why should we not form a secret society with but one object, the furtherance of the British Empire and the bringing of the whole world under British rule, for the recovery of the United States, for making the Anglo Saxon race but one Empire? What a dream, but yet it is probable, it is possible."
Cecil Rhodes - "Confession of Faith"

http://husky1.stmarys.ca/~wmills/rhodes_confession.html


Wow, and I did not know this:

On September 19, 1877, Rhodes drafted his first will; at that time, he had an estate of only about £10,000. (Although he changed his will quite a number of times in years following, the objective remained the same. After his death, the directors of the Rhodes Trust set up the Rhodes Scholarships as the best way to achieve his objectives.) The first clause of the 1877 will bequeathed his wealth as follows:

To and for the establishment, promotion and development of a Secret Society, the true aim and object whereof shall be for the extension of British rule throughout the world, the perfecting of a system of emigration from the United Kingdom, and of colonisation by British subjects of all lands where the means of livelihood are attainable by energy, labour and enterprise, and especially the occupation by British settlers of the entire Continent of Africa, the Holy Land, the Valley of the Euphrates, the Islands of Cyprus and Candia, the whole of South America, the Islands of the Pacific not heretofore possessed by Great Britain, the whole of the Malay Archipelago, the seaboard of China and Japan, the ultimate recovery of the United States of America as an integral part of the British Empire, the inauguration of a system of Colonial representation in the Imperial Parliament which may tend to weld together the disjointed members of the Empire and, finally, the foundation of so great a Power as to render wars impossible and promote the best interests of humanity.

http://husky1.stmarys.ca/~wmills/rhodes_confession.html

((google= Rhodes "Anglo-Saxon race" empire ))

Kind of puts a WHOLE NEW perspective on NAFTA, WTO, GATT, Free Trade, Israel/Palestine.



One finale quote:

George W.'s father has certainly felt that membership in Skull and Bones damaged him politically. When Fay Vincent made a consolation call to Bush after his 1980 loss of the Republican presidential nomination to Ronald Reagan, the weary candidate said, "Fay, let me tell you something. If you ever decide to run for office, don't forget that coming from Andover, Yale, Skull and Bones, and the Trilateral Commission is a big handicap. People don't know what they are, so they don't know where you're coming from. It's really a big, big problem."

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/robbins2.htm

Yes, I'd say it is. I am not liking the results of all these "frat clubs" for rich, powerful mostly White men who seem to dream of nothing but EMPIRE, EMPIRE, EMPIRE.

Ouch...

On edit: This week-end will be asking my baby sister, who went to Pre-Med at Yale, what her take on this is. She will probably laugh her head off and tell me that the S&B-ers were really cute. I am not expecting much info from her but who knows.

[sangh0]

128. Tinoire, you offer nothing but guilt by association

In all of those links, there is nothing about Kerry doing anything wrong. You don't even link to evidence of SnB, or the RTA Corp, doing anything wrong. All you offer is evidence that members of SnB have done bad things.

People (ex. Zell Miller, Lieberman, LBJ, etc) in the Democratic Party have also done bad things. Does that mean that every member of the Democratic Party is involved in crimes?

The only evidence that Kerry is in any way involved in the BFEE is "he's SnB"

That's a very slender reed to hang this up on.

[Tinoire]

135. I know, but it's the associations I don't like

There are times when establishment is all you're going to get and some things you may simply have to rationalize, accept as that's the way things are, the way the system has been set up.

I do believe that those universities are the guardians of our system- I know that first-hand. Clubs are formed, loyalties established and deals are made in the spirit of whatever the loyalty is.

We can't fight everything. I recognize that Kerry is one of the most Liberal ones out there on domestic policy and if that's the best we can get, I'll probably take it but I want more than that. I've defended Kerry for his IWR vote in the past- not really defended him but pointed out that he should be on the same playing field as those who didn't have to vote and that he had a proven record of being a social liberal.

I don't think Kerry is involved in the BFEE. I do think though that all those clubs are formed to groom people to accept certain principles & to advance Anglo-imperialism. We are an Anglo empire and the nature of politics is to get the best leader in office for the advancement of that empire... (well for us we throw in the qualifier "more humane"). There are certain bitter pills we have to accept sometimes but I don't like them. And I really don't like this association.

When you boil it all down- it's always guilt by association until you're proven guilty. Not saying he will be or is bad because Kerry, to be frank with you, leaves me a bit confused, but I don't like it.

[manchu]

50. ok then

try s&b and halliburton. some would say that halliburton has no pull in the current admin.(shocking as that may seem)

[sangh0]

54. OK

There are numerous well-documented connections between Halliburton, BFEE, BCCI, and a large number of other crimes.

Now show me the links between Kerry and BFEE. All I see is one: SnB.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. I would rather compare Halliburton and Carlyle since there is a direct

proximity to the actions unlike Skull and Bones, where there is only conjecture. There is motive (money) and there are actions (lobbying, icluding foreign nations and putting their pricipals on the Defense Policy Board) that relate back to the motive.

S and B is more like a club for spoiled children who may or may NOT make something of themselves. So what if they are groomed for position...that's what the Ivy League is all about..is it not?

[manchu]

65. yep

but my point was that you would find people who would argue that halliburton has no extra pull and refuse to acknowledge the facts the same way people would believe that skull and bones is a simple frat or secret society.

[sangh0]

70. Some people will say anything

What does that prove?

The way to prove connections is to show them. So far, you've haven't provided any evidence of any SnB crime on Kerry's part. You haven't even shown that SnB itself, or the RTA Corp (as opposed to a member) has done anything wrong.

[manchu]

76. i never accused kerry of anything

i just gave reasons for me being apprehensive about him.

[sangh0]

78. I didn't see any "reasons" for being apprehensive

I saw a lot of "speculation", but very little reasoning.

[manchu]

82. heh

theres alot of speculation invbolved in LIHOP but a good number of people believe it. Look Im not saying Kerry is evil or anything I just stated that some of the recent events and his membership in skull and bones gave me some cause for concern. If you support Kerry thats great, if he becomes the nominee, thats cool also, Im just expressing the reasons why I had some misgivings about him and I asked for some more info pertaining to skull and bones and John Kerry.

[sangh0]

90. Incomplete

There are also plenty of FACTS showing connections between Al Queda, BFEE, Bush*, PNAC, Pakistans' ISI, etc

In Kerry's case, there are few facts, and LOTS of innuendo

[Sterling]

20. Might as well be.

If people refuse to include this information their view of Kerry they are not interested in the truth and IMHO are not interested in what is best for our country.

All you ave to do is follow Kerry's actions and remeber he has a bond with the current criminals in charge to see where this is going and what his role is. It makes Dems look really shallow and stupid to let this happen.

[eileen_d]

22. You're willing to call me stupid

... yet you refuse to "enlighten" me with links to Kerry's role in the BFEE/Skull and Bones conspiracy.

I'll be hiding this flaming bag of dung thread right about now...

[Sterling]

28. Many examples have been discussed

on this thread and others over the past 3 years. We watched Kerry sell us out time and time again. I did not call you stupid btw.

[sangh0]

60. Really? Many?

Let's count:

1) SnB
2) IWR vote
3) PATRIOT Act (along with 98 other Senators, who I guess are all SnB)

What else is there?

[Sterling]

80. OK then 3 really huge reasons on this thread.

I am sure I could come up with a longer list but honestly for me and many others those are more than enough to tell us to beware of Kerry and the secret organizations that include he and Bush and the rest of the power elite that hate democracy.

[sangh0]

86. That's all you have?

So this whole long thread, and the supposed numerous connections amount to two votes in the last two years, and somehow that's connected to his joining SnB decades ago?

for me and many others those are more than enough

So you won't tell us about any more connections? Could it be because that's all there is?

the secret organizations that include he and Bush

Secret organizations?????

Why are using the plural? Do Bush* and Kerry belong to some other secret organization, or is this another attempt to exagerrate the evidence?

[Sterling]

101. More dodging and strawman I see.

So it is quantity not quality that matter to you? Sorry for me all you have to do is sell me out once and I "get it". "Fool me once"?


Maybe you misunderstood my point about secret organizations. I was pointing out that elites network through secret organizations through out their life. That is what they do. I am against this. Kerry is part of one of the most secret frats in the known universe and just so happens to have that fact in common with the guy he is supposed to defeat.

He just so happened to vote in Bushes favor on IMHO the two most defining and destructive pieces of legislation in our history. And what’s worse is now that he is the frontrunner in the Dems primary he comes out towing the GOP line of “blame the messenger not the president”.

You just have a way higher tolerance to bullshit than I do.

[sangh0]

129. You are the one who is dodging question

You answered my question about the plural organizations, but you dodged the other two:

So this whole long thread, and the supposed numerous connections amount to two votes in the last two years, and somehow that's connected to his joining SnB decades ago?

You don't offer any more info, but you won't admit that that's all you have.

So you won't tell us about any more connections? Could it be because that's all there is?

So is it all there is, or is there more?

[sangh0]

57. Disgusting

If people refuse to include this information their view of Kerry they are not interested in the truth and IMHO are not interested in what is best for our country.

IOW, if you disagree with Sterling, then you don't care about the truth or the nation.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

91. Not true

I am disagreeing with manchu, but I wouldn't say he doesnt care about the truth or the nation.

[Sterling]

3. Kerry is Cointelpro all the way.

He has a long history of covering Bush family tracks.

He whitewashed the CIA drug running and helped W get his war and the patriot act.

Now is is making sure that not only will W get reelected but with as little bloodletting as possible. Kerry will make sure W's weekest issues are OFF THE TABLE. And millions of anti war voters will stay home or go 3rd party.

[bigtree]

9. Can you provide a link to these charges

that doesn't rely on conservative or republican sources?

[Sterling]

16. Links?

We lived through this here on DU. You can spin but the simple facts are that Kerry has a history of supporting Bush with crucial votes and lax commitment to prosecute Bush crimes.

And it is 100% true Kerry and W are frat brothers.

[sangh0]

93. So Sterling has no links

He says he has "lived through this here", and I know for a fact that Sterling did keep links, and yet he won't share them.

Could it be because there are none?

the simple facts are that Kerry has a history of supporting Bush with crucial votes

If it's a "simple fact", then why can't you provide the evidence?

[Sterling]

105. You were here I was here.

I don't have to show you a link to prove 9-11 happened or that Kerry is S&B or that he voted for the IWC PAT 1, and he just today called for the head of the CIA to step down and not Bush.


You can't deal with it sorry.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

4. Can't you please use paragraph breaks

and come up with a new concern?

I am more concerned with the American Enterprise Institute, The Defense Policy Board, The Hudson Foundation, The Heritage Foundation, and the Scaife Foundation than I am with the paranoid rantings about a fraternity.

[Sam Lowry]

8. Yeah

And what's wrong with courting the Druid vote?

[a_random_joel]

11. Word.

*High-5* NSMA!

[manchu]

13. cool

Id vote for Kerry if he was the nominee because id take a chance on Kerry before Bush any day. I know what damage Bush can do. And as fars as snacthing victory goes i wasnt implying that Dean didnt lose, Im saying that polls had him buried and he came out on top when everyone was basically handing the caucus to Dean.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. IF you had seen him on the trail and watched his commercials

they were FAR better than Dean's. They were FORWARD looking instead of (and sorry I have a problem with Dean's campaign slogan) I WANT MY GOVERNMENT BACK..which invokes the image of a kicking and screaming child (btw, I said that BEFORE the bullshit media attack on Dean which I deplore)

People are concerned about their FUTURE and messages which appeal to their FUTURE are more compelling. I suspect with the changes Dean made tohis campaign, this will be more apparent. He no longer needs to appeal only to the faithful and pissed off but to everybody.

BTW, there have been S and B members that have actually done great good so I discount that affiliation as being solely evil even if it is juvenile.

[manchu]

36. Ok I can respect your opinion

on this one. Im curious, could you name me a few bonesmen that have been great aids to society? All Ive ever heard of them was that their were a super secret society that had ulterior motives, that usually benefitted them.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. I read a great post by Lydia Leftcoast who attended Yale

as a grad student and whom I respect greatly...she referenced several rather benevolent people..I will have to search the archives for the post and will do so tonight ...or I'll PM this thread to her to provide you with the names.

Let me say, I DO think there are benevolent people and scoundrels in damn near every organization...and I try not to view the world in black and white/ good and bad dichotomies as I feel it doesn't expand one's perspective, it poisons and narrows it.

That isn't to say there isn't good, bad, right and wrong..I just don't think everything neatly fits into those paradigms.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

84. Here is LL post..I have taken the liberty to cut and paste

Lydia Leftcoast (1000+ posts) Thu Jan-29-04 01:06 PM
Response to Original message

15. Take it from someone who spent 9 years on the Yale campus


(and no, I'm not a member of Skull and Bones, because at the time, they took only senior undergraduate males.)

Yale is right up there with Harvard for producing some of the most famous and infamous people in America. I don't know about Harvard, but Yale is full of private clubs, many of which are secret societies, including Berzelius, Book and Snake, Scroll and Key, and Wolf's Head. They all have windowless club houses that look like tombs.

There are also non-secret but equally exclusive clubs, such as Mory's, Fence Club, and the Elizabethan Club.

Given that alumni children get special admission privileges, you are likely to run into someone with family connections to a member of the BFEE just by being on campus. I was in a singing group with Henry Kissinger's daughter, and I took ballet from the same teacher that Ron Reagan Jr. did. I was also on campus at the same time that William F. Buckley's son was a student. I knew someone else who was the daughter of a network newscaster.

If two members of the BFEE are in cahoots, it's just as likely that they met over tea and cookies at the Elizabethan Club or over beer at Mory's as it is that they were fellow Bonesmen.

Given the way Skull and Bones works, you can't apply to be in it. The outgoing seniors choose the juniors who will replace them in the spring. The juniors are not supposed to know that they are under consideration. The Bonesmen from more than one year apart don't necessarily know one another.

I learned in looking over the membership list that I knew two Bonesmen at Yale. Jim was an East Asian studies major who is currently a professor specializing in East Asian law. Steve is now an Orthodox rabbi. If these two had the ability to become part of an evil cabal with unlimited wealth and power, they certainly blew their chance.

It was widely believed that the S&B guys "leaked" most of the wild rumors about themselves to maintain the air of mystery.

The best connection is Yale itself, especially for undergraduates. I stayed on campus long enough to see students who had written for the mediocre Yale Daily News turning up with important jobs at national publications soon after graduation. Michiko Kakutani was writing book reviews for the New York Times within two years of graduation, and I don't think she was in S&B. Another young woman, whose name escapes me at the moment, was a senior editor at Newsweek within four years of graduating. Other people have to go to journalism school and start out by covering small town softball tournaments.

I'm convinced that the S&B connections are no stronger than any other college fraternity connection. The BFEE may have recruited some people from S&B, but they could just as easily have recruited them from the gym, their residential college (a source of very strong ties, since the students are in the same college all four years), or their singing group.

Those of you who have seen me on the Wellstone or LIHOP/MIHOP threads know that I like a good conspiracy theory as much as anyone. However, in this case, where I have some firsthand knowledge, I don't see what all the fuss is about.

[manchu]

92. Thats cool

But just because 2 of her friends didnt become high rollers doesnt mean there isnt anything to the rumors. It could very well be that Skull and Bones is just a simple frat but until a bonesman spills his guts about the frat we'll never know.

[sangh0]

95. Your response isn't all that cool

Instead of addressing the arguments LL raises in her post, you have chosen to focus on her two freinds.

There was more to LL"s post than that.

[manchu]

100. No my point is

that we dont know. Im not knocking LL's post she was there and shes probably correct, but shes not a bonesman/woman therefore she cant be absolutly sure. I cant refute her arguement because I didnt go to Yale. She did say that she wasnt a member of S&B so she cant be 100 % sure, but in light of her going to Yale i would say shes the resident expert on the matter and would be inclined to belive her. That being said it still doesnt mean that there isnt an agenda between the more affluent members of ther frat.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

97. I think secret shit is stupid but I've now invested more brain cells than

this is worth.


I gotta go drive through In and Out. :D

[Sterling]

111. I agree and disagree.

You have wasted time that could have been spent objectively looking for truth or even making a compelling case for why Kerry is to be trusted.

Instead you avioded, insulted, and most likely alienated.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. The actual corporation is name RTA Corporation

The RTA Corporation operates "Skull & Bones" - RTA stands for the old name, "Russell Trust Association". They changed the name, incidentally, the day of the Bay of Pigs invasion, of course planned and executed by RTA members.

[Sterling]

18. Shhhhh no one wants to know these things......

Skull and Bones is just like any other frat and Kerry has nothing in common with Bush.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Yeah and,.....how does that tie to all of this

I would love all of the S and B fanatics to hold a cup of water in a court of law...you all seem to believe in democracy and the bill of rights until it interferes with giving the benefit of the doubt to someone you all want to smear.

[Sterling]

52. Court?

There is nothing illegal about S&B. It is what those little assholes do later in life that is the crime.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

58. Why should I give Kerry the benefit of the doubt?

Seriously, why? If he wants my vote - in the primary or the general - he can start talking ...

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. Why should we desire for anyone what we desire for ourselves?

[Sterling]

71. Sorry bud save that blind faith for church.

My leaders will be scrutinized for better or for worse. you should try it, it would help our country if you did and taught others to do the same instead of promoting cults of personality.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. Scrutinize fine but you simpy make up shit, declare it to have weight and

then pretend you have offered evidence of that weight.

[Sterling]

109. What have I made up?

I have an opinion based on the facts we commonly acknowledge. Yours is different. I think mine has much more validity, as I have no agenda other than the truth while you have a candidate to support.

[sangh0]

130. This is what you made up

You have claimed that Kerry is giving Bush* a pass on WMD's but you haven't provided any evidence of that.

You also made up "facts we commonly acknowledge". So far, I see only one fact (not plural "facts") that we commonly acknowledge (ie. Kerry is a SnB member)

[sangh0]

96. If you have scutinized Kerry

then why can't you post the links? Why can't you list the numerous times Kerry has voted with Bush*, as you claimed?

[Sterling]

110. Enough to matter.

The two votes we are discussing are enough for me. Lets stick to them for now. I really don't want to be sent on a mission to dig up dirt on Kerry just because you want to change the subject. I don't think it is in Kerry's best interest either.

[sangh0]

131. So you admit you're unwilling to look into the facts?

That's reassuring

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sterling]

73. Enlighten us?

Why should we have blind faith in a candidate and excuse mistakes and relationships that comprimise ones judgement and ability to govern in the best interest of the people?

[sangh0]

75. Blind faith?

WTF are you talking about? WCTV asked about "benefit of the doubt"

Why did you change the topic?

[sangh0]

77. And what "mistakes and relationships" are you talking about?

You keep talking as if there are lots of them, but you won't enlighten us as to what they are. Let's see the list and show us the money!!

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

98. We covered those three. I asked for more, and you wimped

I already listed SnB, IWR, and PATRIOT. The last (ie. "Kerry covering Bush's ass on WMD lies") is just BS, which is why you won't back it up with a link. Kerry never said what you say he said.

I can't be responsible for poor/lazy/intentional lack of reading comprehension

It's hard to understand something that hasn't yet been posted.

[Sterling]

106. I covered them, you avoided them and wanted to move on.

These three things are the subject at hand, you are trying to change the subject.

[sangh0]

132. That;'s all you have?

So why don't you just say so?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

88. nice non-answer

I think Kerry is a fake - prove otherwise. If he wants my vote, he has to EARN it. So, Kerry, start talking - about Russell Trust, about your brother Bush, about Iran/Contra, about BCCI - or else, why the hell should I bother?

[Sterling]

94. Exactly, I am not the one selling something.

If Kerry people want to handle this stuff by dodging, and spinning it will not erase anyone’s concerns. So far I am being asked to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt. Sorry no sell, it’s too late in the game to let one self live in denial these days.

[sangh0]

99. Who said it was an answer?

It clearly was not an answer. I'm glad to see you figured that out on your own.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LOL]

10. I don't know either

but I do recall reading somewhere that the 'Boners' view is that they don't really care who get's elected just as long as it's either Bush or Kerry...got me to wondering.

[oasis]

14. Dean fell flat on his face because of his gaffes. Bonesfolk had nothing

to do with his bonehead mistakes.

[Sterling]

23. Which gaffes do you speak of?

I sawfew if any gaffes only media spin ala "Al Gore thinks he invented the internet".

If that kind of stuff works on you, you have a lot to learn about what is going on. I hope you catch up soon because the hour is very late.

[newsjunkie]

31. yes its getting very late...wake up people

[oasis]

51. Osama's guilt, Saddam's capture, Johnny come lately to church. I don't

live in Iowa or New Nampshire that "stuff" worked on them. Can you catch up to that?

[Sterling]

55. So you think:

No need to try Osama?

Invading a nation that has never attacked us made us safer?

It "worked" on you obviously. Usually people come to DU to work against this kind of spin but you missed the point and seem to revel in spreading such garbage. Yes it is clear you don't get it. I hope you come around before it does not matter anymore.

[sangh0]

66. Missing the point

Whether or not you agree with what Dean said, the fact is that Dean did say those things, and people did not like it. It's not the media's fault that people are bloodthirsty.

Usually people come to DU to work against this kind of spin

Most people don't EVER come to DU. Dean should have realized that before he opened his mouth and said those stupid things.

[Sterling]

108. If being right is unpopular than we are lost, But...

It's just the spin so don't be part of perpetrating it on fellow Americans.....


If the media can tell us the sky is green then it is up to us to point out they are wrong don’t you think?

I always feel like I am talking to the devil when I have to point this out. It seems so obvious to me that the truth is the answer not the problem.

[sangh0]

133. You're neither right or popular

If the media can tell us the sky is green then it is up to us to point out they are wrong don’t you think?

If those people believe the media over what their own eyes tell them, what makes you think that they will believe, or even listen, to you?

You keep claiming that people were tricked by the media into not voting for Dean. If you have the truth, why won't people listen to you?

Even here on DU, with it's many liberals, your claims are not trusted.

[oasis]

69. Again, it worked on people whose lives don't revolve around DU.

I have about as much influnce over them as you do. Could it be that Dean was not ready for the big time? He clearly lacks the political savvy it takes to succeed on the national stage. He damaged himself, it wasn't me or skull 'n bones.

We all have to play with the cards we are dealt and do the best we can. Knowing when the cards aren't with us is a giant step towards wisdom.

[Sterling]

112. So be part of the solution not the problem.

As someone who seems to know better you have a responsibilty to the thruth. Help people cut through the BS not wallow in it.

[oasis]

115. Pointing out reality IS telling the truth. My "responsibility" to fellow

DUers is to paint a picture for them without wearing rose colored glasses.

[deutsey]

39. Democracy Now link on S&B

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/23/0445212

Snip
ALEXANDRA ROBBINS: If this turns out to be a Skull and Bones versus Skull and Bones election. I guarantee people across the country are going to clamor for more information on the secret society. I think this is the point of my book and probably the point of your program, too. I don't think that the elected officials who represent our country especially the president should be allowed to have an allegiance to any secret group. Secrecy overshadows democracy. We need a transparency so we can hold elected officials accountable. I don't think its coincidence that I what I would call the most secretive government in America today since the Nixon era is run by the world's most infamous secret society. That's something we want to avoid in the future.
Snip

I dismissed S&B until I heard this report on Democracy Now!. I would like to read Robbins' book.

[bigtree]

56. That was an embarassing report from my heros at DN

Name-dropping Kerry's moniker into lurid tales of collusion and impropriety have revealed nothing to tie John Kerry to any illegal, or improper act.

In every article, in every line in that DN story, and in every other S&B story the authors and accusers have done nothing more than insert his name; echoing the only thing they can brand him with: He was/is a member of S&B, and he tried to recruit Jacob Weisburg (snicker). Nothing more.

I challenge you to prove to us all, with non-republican links that John Kerry engaged in anything illegal or improper in regard to S&B.

Find me the link and tell me why you believe that your evidence proves that John Kerry engaged in anything improper or illegal in regard to that silly S&B.

[deutsey]

64. I don't have to prove jack to you

I'm not making any accuations about illegalities or improprieties regarding Kerry.

I'm citing DN's report, in particular the problem of secret societies like S&B perpetuating their power outside the transparency of democracy.

I don't think the author is making any accusations that you allege.

In accusing me and DN of making specious arguments, you make one yourself.

[sangh0]

74. Did you read this thread, particularly the 1st post?

Most of here are talking about Kerry's connection to SnB, so it's not so unreasonable to assume that a post discussing SnB in a derogatory manner is being used to criticize Kerry, particularly when there's nothing in the post about how you posted it as background info about SnB, and not to imply something about Kerry.

[deutsey]

126. Did you read my post?

I found the DN show interesting, and the author of the book gave some insights into the secret society that I did not know.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that someone can just post a link to a report that is of general interest to the topic at hand.

The person I was respoding to was challenging me to make some kind of case for Kerry's nefarious activities in S&B. I've actually defended Kerry's connection to S&B many times on these boards. I thought the DN report shed some light on the society that I had not known about; one can't make the leap, therefore, that I'm saying it's an evil cabal responsible for all the terrible things in the world. The report made me rethink the society as something that is basically undemocratic (small d) and yet weilds a lot of power in this country.

In the future I'll just remain narrowly fixated on the topic at hand and shan't dare again to broaden the discussion again.

[sangh0]

134. Yes, I did

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that someone can just post a link to a report that is of general interest to the topic at hand.

We both know that someone can just post a link becuase that's what you did. I also want to point out that I did not say you did anything wrong in posting that link. I only meant to point out that in the context of this thread, a post with info that indicates SnB is involved in shenanigans could be interpreted as corroborating the accusations against Kerry, especially since there was no comments in the post to indicate that it was intended as background on SnB.

There's nothing "wrong" with your not making such a comment. However, in the absence of such a comment, it's more likely someone will misinterpret the intent behind the post.

I've actually defended Kerry's connection to S&B many times on these boards.

Yes, I know that, which is why I do not think your post was an attack on Kerry. I believe that you posted this as background inf on SnB, and did not intent it as an attack.

In the future I'll just remain narrowly fixated on the topic at hand and shan't dare again to broaden the discussion again

I hope not. I think you're an asset on DU, and you should contribute as much as you think is appropriate. I just wanted to point out that the misinterpretation of your intent is partially the result of the lack of comments.

[deutsey]

138. Thanks

But I still say I don't have to prove jack to the poster to whom I was responding originally.

So nyah.

:hi:

[Sterling]

113. I think S&B itself is inproper.

Unfortunately elitist collusion is not illegal.

[Sterling]

42. You may be 100% on or...

Maybe he is going to throw the election by running a safe campaign and avoiding issues that hurt Bush and the PNAC agenda?

Whatever it is it is rotten to the core.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. Read my post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=224868#225592

AFAIK, there has been one Skull and Bones president (Bush Sr.) and one pseudo-president (Bush Jr). Given the hundreds of members since the mid-1800s, that's a pretty poor "training ground for presidents."

I'll trust my own experiences at Yale beyond some speculations written by LaRouche types.

[Sterling]

114. Were you in S&B?

If so tell us about it. Otherwise I don't think your Yale years entitle you to talk down to me or any others on this subject. You have no knowledge that the rest of us do not have.


How many presidents in the last 50 years. How many power players period? This is much more ominous than you are willing to admit.

Nice appeal to ridicule and straw man tactic of comparing me and others to LaRouche supporters. Why not David Icke or alien watchers? Those always work well when you want to avoid the subject.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

120. I didn't say that YOU were a LaRouche supporter, Sterling

I have more respect for you than that. But I do think you're getting your information from LaRouche-like sources.

And of course I wasn't in S&B: I was a grad student and female, and either by itself would have been enough to disqualify me. But I knew two members, as well as members of other secret societies.

As I said, two presidents in fifty years, who happen to be father and son, is not a very good track record for such an all-powerful organization. Truman wasn't S&B, nor were Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, or Clinton. I didn't see any other presidents in the membership, although a couple of presidential advisors are in there. The rest of the hundreds of members are completely obscure.

I don't know everything Dean and Lieberman did at Yale. Like Bush and Kerry, they were before my time. For all I know, they might have been in one of the other secret societies. Google reveals that Lieberman was on the staff of the Yale Daily News with David Gergen. Big deal, and probably as significant as my being in a singing group with Henry Kissinger's daughter. Accounts of Dean's years at Yale are vague, saying only that he majored in poli sci., opposed the Vietnam War, but didn't participate in demonstrations. I wouldn't have access to their alumni websites, which are available only to class members, so I can't fill in any more details.

With 38,000 people registered at this site, there must be more people with experience at Yale than just me. I wish they'd chime in on this issue.

[sangh0]

72. Or maybe

the fact that you can't refute that means that your argument is nothing more than innuendo and speculation

[NNN0LHI]

102. But you have to admit. It is fun around campfires to scare the kids with

[manchu]

103. Easy on the flaming people

No need to insult people. If we disagree lets debate it reasonably. We all have the same goal in mind I would think and thats bouncing Bush. So lets save the ire and insults for those that deserve it.

[Sterling]

116. Bouncing Bush is only part of the picture.

I agree flaming is not rational debate, I wish the peopel who are supporting Kerry on this thread would not try to avoid the subject and insult instead of making a case for excusing Kerry's support of Bush and historical ties to the BFEE.

[Walt Starr]

104. Anybody But Bonesmen

Yep, I'm ABB.

[Sterling]

117. The "new" ABB. I'm game.

I like it.

[cosmicdot]

118. The Boodle Boys

FWIW

http://www.ctrl.org/boodleboys/boodleboys1.html

[ozone_man]

123. Very illuminating.

<snip>
Every year on a Thursday in May fifteen juniors are 'tapped"—initiated into next year's group. There have been a few irregular initiations and member years—usually because of war. Around 2,500 people have been members, mostly white males from old-line inter-related, wealthy New England families. Bundy, Bush, Ford, Goodyear, Harriman, Heinz, Jay, Kellogg, Lord, Lovett, Perkins, Phelps, Pillsbury, Pinchot, Rockefeller, Sloane, Stimson, Taft, Vanderbilt, Weyerhaeuser, and Whitney, are some of the names on the Skull and Bones roster. Minorities were brought in during the 1950's and female initiates were allowed into the Order in 1991.
<snip>

So, I guess Kerry's ticket in was being a Forbes.

[DemonFighterLives]

125. Interesting Topic

I think this deserves a kick. :kick:
There is a lot of stuff to wade through. Kerry is great and much better than Bush, but Skull and Bones needs to be investigated here.
Besides, I needed to find some links.

[PATRICK]

136. 136 posts about a Fraternity?

How the occult attracts people, even here! This won't be campaign issue because Bush is one too, unless we are going to keep sniping at ourselves over the worst conspiracy theory trivia until it seeps out into the electorate.

I don't think Bush cares what group he belongs to or supports so long as he gets what he and the clan want. Whatever the interesting connections and what all, these men are driven by other goals than a frat bond.

More to the point is the crippling insider wisdom among the privileged elites who dominate politics, whether they are good men or not. They are blind all too often, too forgiving and understanding of each other, too removed by their money from the people. That could have been said of Kennedy too and justifiably so. Kerry is a good man and would be excellent for the country- as a starter.

We do need to begin again. Right now we locked into neo-retro gear and rocketing down. This is not a hold your nose issue. Kerry is rock solid and a tough campaigner. Skull and Bones is the least of the least issues we should be worrying about.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

137. It is NOT the fraternity that's the problem

It's the fact that Kerry refuses to go on record about not only his association with these people in college - which is not that big of a deal - but won't go on record with his CONTINUING association with these people. Surely you can see the difference?

If Kerry just said, "yeah I was a member, no longer" - there would be no problem. Instead, Kerry says "no comment" - fueling the suspicions.